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Re: Bayonne the new Netherlands ?
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Blah blah blah lightbulbs blah blah.
The least efficient bulbs will be phased out in the largest markets by: US 2018 EU 2016 China 2016 UK: 2012 In a decade no one will even remember incandescent bulbs. Grumble grumble grumble.
Posted on: 2012/2/12 23:41
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Where does your information about CFLs being "lot harder to break" come from? In my experience, there is no difference whatsoever. Quote: And wasn't it you that said CFLs have 7% less mercury? Or something along those lines? Oh, this is soooo cool ! So, you argue without actually trying to READ the argument you are arguing against? Well, that explains SO MUCH. Quote: I don't know, I don't really go around smashing lightbulbs in my house so I'm not particularly worried about anything. Sorry, the question is not whether you would "go around smahing lightbulbs". The questions was - are you absolutely sure that you, or your kids, or guests or Comcast cable guy, or whoever else, - would never, ever smash one of those lamps in your house by accident - EVER? Because if you accept that there is a good chance it will happen, - you really need not worry about mercury produced by all them power plants.
Posted on: 2012/2/12 22:23
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I didn't say they're invulnerable, I said they're a lot harder to break than a regular bulb. Regular bulbs are super fragile, in case you haven't noticed. And wasn't it you that said CFLs have 7% less mercury? Or something along those lines? I don't know, I don't really go around smashing lightbulbs in my house so I'm not particularly worried about anything.
Posted on: 2012/2/12 5:56
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I am not sure I understand. DO you claim that if a CFL falls on the floor by accident, - it does not break? Nor when you hit it with a ladder when trying to get something from the top shelf? Nor when kids throw a football in the house and hit it? Or do you mean that no american family can possibly experience those extreme events? Quote: And I don't understand the point anyway? CFLs use wayyyy less electricity, they last longer, and they're not as fragile. I save money, and I don't have to break out the ladder to change bulbs as often. And apparently there's less mercury too. Why wouldn't I use them? I just explained to you that to achieve that "less mercury" you must NEVER break a CFL in your house. We shall see how you manage.
Posted on: 2012/2/12 2:36
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Easy for you to say! I imagine you live near the shoreline and can see both Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty. Sure, you know things that some people from the backwoods of Hamilton Park have not ever got a chance to hear about.
Posted on: 2012/2/12 2:31
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stillinjc wrote:
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[/quote] I?m not trying to convince you, I?m pointing out that you?re content to be ignorant and it lends no credit to your views. It?s also irrational, if not petty, to be so upset when foreigners are truthful in their observations. Are you that thin-skinned? Bist du ein Weichei? I don?t believe that you are, so why act defensively? For my part?do you know what I like much, much less than visitors telling me they observe third world-like conditions in the United States? THAT THOSE CONDITIONS REALLY DO EXIST. I've seen them?haven't you? Perhaps though, I put more effort into trying to be objective even when it does not suit my own prejudice. Those who consider themselves liberal often label me as conservative, while self-proclaimed conservatives call me liberal. It may be that when all of an individual's views fall heavily into one camp or the other by default (i.e. through strong prejudice), they are handicapping their own ability to think clearly.
Posted on: 2012/2/10 14:32
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Have you heard of naturalization?
Posted on: 2012/2/10 12:59
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Man have you ever messed around with a CFL? They're much harder to break than a regular lightbulb. And I don't understand the point anyway? CFLs use wayyyy less electricity, they last longer, and they're not as fragile. I save money, and I don't have to break out the ladder to change bulbs as often. And apparently there's less mercury too. Why wouldn't I use them?
Posted on: 2012/2/10 3:12
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Posted on: 2012/2/10 3:09
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Is it the one when people who can't do arithmetic and are unable to offer any support for their claims, - have to resort to calling others "uneducated" in order to maintain their feeling of intellectual superiority?
Posted on: 2012/2/10 2:15
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I don't like it when visitors from "northwestern Europe" call the US a "third world country". That is a very ignorant statement, and a typical European know-it-all, arrogant attitude. And they were sad, to boot. I suppose they are sorry to see Americans suffer so... They meant well... Frank_M, I think we need to agree to disagree and drop it. The chasm between our views is just too great to overcome. Sadly, a similar chasm exists now in all of the US (lefty vs righty, Obama vs GOP, etc). I have never seen the US so polarized, and our discussion here is probably a reflection of that. I am not optimistic that there can be a resolution to this stalemate, and that worries me. But let's drop it; we won't convince one another, or anybody else for that matter.
Posted on: 2012/2/10 0:46
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stillinjc wrote:
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I conveyed a simple observation made by two people from northwestern Europe who were not particularly interested in finding fault or generating criticism of the United States, and because of that they?re supposed to kiss your ass and go screw themselves? Your alleged ?can do? spirit is unimpressive because it?s a narrow-minded, ?I can do for myself, and the rest of you can go to Hell,? attitude that?s reflected in the ease with which you?re willing to dismiss tremendous national problems that are specifically addressed by peer nations. You are saying, ?No, we can?t do that.?
Posted on: 2012/2/9 15:34
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Belgium can kiss my American ass. And don't be calling bullshit on my can-do spirit, bud, because I came to this country from rotten Europe with $100 to my name, and now I am proudly a 1-percenter, in the OWS parlance. Every cent of it earned by hard, honest work, not WS shenanigans. Could never happen in Europe. Please tell the kind Belgians to go eff themselves from me. Thanks so much.
Posted on: 2012/2/9 4:19
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You should probably read up on the Dunning?Kruger effect before you comment anymore on the internet.
Posted on: 2012/2/9 4:17
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I guess this means math proved to be too hard to try, eh? P.S. BTW, I too used to argue along the lines of "but X also does it!" I remember it fondly - nice, easy argument. Had to abandon it though in high-school. My mom told me that it is not for grown-ups.
Posted on: 2012/2/9 3:24
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1. It is not enough for "everyone you know" to do that. It is necessary for the majority to do that, - and majority is not going to. 2. As I said, even if majority does do that, - it all is meaningless, if you break just one bulb inside your house. Now, in your opinion, what would be in a house with 2 kids, - how many of those lamps will get broken in, say, 10 years?
Posted on: 2012/2/9 3:19
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Waffle makers? Oh, good one. I didn?t claim that homelessness isn?t a problem in Belgium, nor did our guests, but thank you for demonstrating the weak trend to look for smaller magnitude problems elsewhere than to be more critical of larger magnitude problems in your own country, the richest one on Earth, by well... an order of magnitude. If you like though, please share with us a report on the common existence of third world-like conditions in Belgium.
Posted on: 2012/2/8 17:09
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Did you note that the comparison is based on ALL the CFL's ending up the environment rather than being properly disposed of? Everyone I know keeps a box of dead CFL's and gets rid of them properly every year or 2, rather than ritualistically smashing them and distributing the remains in their children's beds.
Posted on: 2012/2/8 16:25
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Frank_M wrote: Third world country? I hope you straightened those waffle makers out! Gee for such a wonderful prosperous country with a population of only 10 million people (isn?t NYC?s population 9 million) you would think Belgium could do more for their homeless. Talk about sad?at least here in America we talk about our homeless problem openly in the media almost everyday (not just at Christmas time) and we do try and do something about it. How freaking SAD is this?..  ***** BELGIUM Homeless in the Heart of EU David Cronin BRUSSELS, Sep 15 (IPS) - On a wet afternoon in Brussels, a dishevelled man shelters from the elements in a side entrance to the city's main railway station. Beside his feet a green canvas bag carries all his worldly possessions. He has been homeless for a decade now; he has asked several times to be given accommodation by the Belgian authorities, but his request has never been granted. Often he sleeps rough. "It is very hard, especially in the winter," he says. "I survive, but only just." Next month, this man will turn 51. Many in a similar situation have not made it to that age. Thirty-one people are known to have died in Brussels during 2007 because they had nowhere to live other than the streets. Their average age was 46. "The most trying times for us can be when someone that we have been treating dies," says Emilie Meessen, founder of Street Nurses, a team of young women who provide care to the homeless. "In such cases we help organise funeral ceremonies and bring together the people that knew the deceased. If there is somebody who dies on the street that we and other organisations do not know, we still go to the morgue with flowers and try to organise something. Every year we have a tribute for people who have died. More and more people are added to the list every year but that does not necessarily mean that more people are dying on the street. It just means we are aware of more cases." In Belgium, as in many European countries, issues relating to homelessness are rarely discussed in the media, except around Christmas. Yet deaths among rough sleepers have taken place all year. "During the summer festival season, for example, we often meet homeless people who have been assaulted by youths," Meessen added. "Rain is a persistent problem as it destroys the cardboard that people use to try to keep warm. In this country, it can rain at any time of year." Reliable data on Belgium's problem of homelessness is hard to come by, as the only exact records kept are of those who seek refuge in overnight shelters. Data provided by the Belgian government based on a study by an anti-poverty group puts the number of homeless in the country at 17,000, and the number for Brussels at 2,000. But it is widely assumed that the true figure is considerably higher. "People do not choose to be homeless, they find themselves in that situation," said Meessen. "It is very easy to say that these people don't want to live in a house, but there are studies that suggest otherwise. There is not enough affordable social housing in this country. It really is a problem." Even though the right to shelter is enshrined in Belgium's national constitution, social accommodation comprises just 6 percent of all housing in the country. According to the ministry for social integration in Brussels, this is the lowest proportion in the European Union. A spokeswoman for the ministry said that efforts to address homelessness have been hampered by the fragmented nature in which the country is governed. Belgium is split between its two main provinces: the predominantly Dutch-speaking Flanders and the Francophone Wallonia. Both enjoy a large degree of autonomy from the federal administration in Brussels, including over financial and housing matters. "There are good things happening on both sides," the spokeswoman said. "But like with most things in Belgium, they don't talk to each other enough." The Belgian federal government has promised to hold a conference in the near future to assess how this lack of coordination can be overcome. A recent report by a Brussels-based association of reception centres for the homeless (known by its French acronym AMA) stated that Brussels had about 38,000 apartments or houses reserved for people on low income in 2007. More than 25,000 families or individuals were on a waiting list for this accommodation. Sometimes it can take up to six years before a needy family is housed, the report found, citing a similar waiting period for Wallonia. In Flanders, the average waiting period is just over two years. Vinciane Lenoir, author of the AMA report, suggests that those who have to rent their accommodation are at a considerably higher risk of hardship - including the possibility of being left without access to permanent shelter - than those who can afford to own their home. "The fight against poverty and social exclusion must take account of the availability of good quality accommodation and its affordability. It seems that in Belgium the fact of being a tenant increases the likelihood of poverty. If we compare with those who are property owners we find that 29 percent of tenants are poor, while just 9 percent of owners fall into that category." Lenoir added: "More and more, families and individuals in a precarious situation because of their low income encounter difficulties in having proper accommodation. The question regularly comes down to what you do when rent exceeds half of a family's income. Everyone with a low income is especially vulnerable to financial problems when faced with unexpected costs such as a fine or a medical bill. If a rent is strangling someone, you can bet that they won't pay it for a long time, with the result that they will accumulate debts." ***** ***** Back on topic?..it looks like the ?kind? people of Belgium don?t give two craps about their homeless but they love their windmills? Wind turbine opinion survey In September 2010, a survey was held by the Hogeschool West-Vlaanderen among more than 800 families who live very close to wind turbines in West Flanders. The results were better than expected. ? Before building the turbines, 59.3% were satisfied ? After building the turbines, 68.3% were satisfied ? When asked if more turbines may be built, 83.9% agreed
Posted on: 2012/2/8 16:18
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Socialist nanny-state, huh? Thanks, I was wondering how long it would take you to regurgitate that hackneyed line. Free enterprise? That sounds great on paper, but the concept of free enterprise is raped on a daily basis by entities too large to even comprehend their own nature, much less if what they accomplish is healthy for the nation. When ?people like you? so easily dismiss the dehumanizing effect our ?imperfect? society has on such a large number of its citizens, you?re the ones who are seemingly content to be lazy, know-it-all, entitled, cowards blindly rushing toward a dead-end that we?ll all have to share. I?m calling bullshit on your ?can do? spirit. My wife and I had two very kind guests from Belgium visit last evening. Coincidentally, one of their comments about what they?ve seen here included the phrase ?third world country,? and they weren?t trying to be cynical. Rather, they were genuinely saddened by it. While that may be acceptable for ?people like you,? I would be ashamed to be content with that.
Posted on: 2012/2/8 14:33
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Even China is phasing out incandescent bulbs. China! China, where they substitute anti-freeze in place of sugar and rivers of sewage and toxic chemicals are tapped for drinking water. But you know what, if you start eating shards of a your CFL, I'll nominate you for a Darwin award.
Posted on: 2012/2/8 4:23
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Well, according to the calculations from this pro-CFL site, the difference between mercury from CFLs and incandescent lamps is, quote: Mercury from the CFLs and their use = 2,259 pounds Mercury from incandescent bulb usage = 2,425 pounds Less than 7% - that's hardly what you can describe as "greatly outweighs". However, those calculations assume that the mercury from the CFLs is distributed as evenly as mercury from the smoke from coal plant. Like, if those lamps are going to be broken in the garbage damps, outside. What if a CFL lamp is broken in the house? That is 5 milligrams of mercury. All of it, again, right inside your house. Now, how often do you think a lamp is broken in an average household? Care to finish the calculations? I think you should. I mean, otherwise it would look like I am the only one who deals in numbers and facts... That would be somewhat embarrassing, no? After all, I am but a stoopid unedukatid simpleton...
Posted on: 2012/2/8 4:11
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@Frank_M:
I disagree with you on every single point you make. I'd rather live in an imperfect society that you describe, than in a socialist nanny-state like Germany, that you seem to admire so. Same goes for France, Italy, Spain, Romania, Portugal, Hungary, you name them - all falling like dominoes under the burden of their unsustainable social benefits, which you seem to favor. This country was established on principles of free enterprise and can-do spirit. People like you are trying to turn the US into a lazy, know-it-all, entitled, cowardly, cynical, socialist, dead-end Europe. See how I feel about them? 
Posted on: 2012/2/8 1:34
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Interesting playing field for analysis, though of course war preparation vs industrial policy is inherently flawed. A better military analogy to the discussion would be carriers vs battleships in the between war period. The brass hated carriers and loved their battleships, till the Japanese carrier based aircraft sank or disabled most of ours at Pearl Harbor and, possible more importantly in terms of tactically neutralizing battleships, land based aircraft sank the British battleship HMS Prince of Wales and battlecruiser HMS Repulse on the high seas. The day of the battleship was done, despite the wishes of the leadership. Thankfully we had the immense industrial capacity to churn out the carriers we would need to defeat Japan, as well as arms to defeat Germany. So, the question becomes, what do we do when we have our energy Pearl Harbor? There are some "peak oil" folks who think it might not be gradual, that the demand vs production curves could cross quite violently, and our economy will be smoking hulls in the bay.
Posted on: 2012/2/8 0:26
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At least all that corn and soy is coming from American innovation in the way of GM seeds developed by St. Louis based Monsanto. Sadly human innovation generally stems from need or perceived need, which comes at a higher cost and not without pain. Our anti-mass transit advocates will come around when gasoline is $6 or $8 a gallon. Our anti-renewable energy advocates will come around our carbon fuels run out. Many technological revolutions have been spurred because of external pressures and finite resources. Skyscrapers evolved because of a shortage of land downtown Chicago and lower Manhattan. Bombing Germans was the single greatest motivating factor in the development of aircraft. So yes, conservatives will belittle efforts to invest now in future technologies, but humanity will figure out alternative energy solutions. The real question is whether the United States will be the beneficiary and develop the technology or some other foreign nation will. The royalty checks only go who gets there first.
Posted on: 2012/2/7 23:37
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I'm sure you know this, but the answer is always that mature industries donate lots of political money and have unions that vote, and embryonic industries don't. Witness the current old/new battle between the MPAA/RIAA and the web, the old guard got the crap shocked out of it, they were used to having their money drown out opposing voices like they did when they squeezed money out of every cassette tape sale in the 70's. The most tragic example of this is the way we subsidize giant commodity farmers but not small produce farmers. This is why there's corn and soy in just about everything we eat.
Posted on: 2012/2/7 22:59
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Too late ? Looks like we have ?passed the wind? onto Denmark..
MAKE Consulting gave the following ranking of wind turbine manufactures, and their shares of the total 2010 market: Company Country Market share (pct) 1) Vestas Denmark 12% 2) Sinovel China 11% 3) GE United States 10% 4) Goldwind China 10% 5) Enercon Germany 7% 6) Gamesa Spain 7% 7) Dongfang (DEC) China 7% 8) Suzlon India 6% 9) Siemens Germany 5% 10) United Power China 4% 11) Mingyang China 3% 12) REpower Germany 2% 13) Sewind China 2% 14) Nordex Germany 2% 15) XEMC China 1% Others 12% NOTE: German manufactuer REpower is owned by India's Suzlon.
Posted on: 2012/2/7 21:32
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Former Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm began an initiative o retool the state's industrial base to build wind turbines and solar panels. So far, many of the goals have been met and Michigan might be competitive in the future energy manufacturing. Perhaps its worth noting Germany has made similar commitments to invest in these alternative energy sources recognizing that moving ahead, industrial jobs in industries like renewable energy will become increasingly important both as the cost of carbon fuels increase and developing nations further industrialize. As a nation, we invest in new technologies like wind energy because this is how we maintain a technological or industrial edge over global competitors. Instead of modernizing the steal industry forty years ago, we protected it through trade tariffs. What happened? The Japanese engineered steal that was cheaper to manufacture than American steal and cheaper even than American steal with protective tariffs. What if instead of protecting older industries like coal mining we subsidized technological development in wind turbine technology so that twenty years from now when the demand is for turbines rather than dirty, filthy coal, our nation's industrial base is in a place to meet the demand rather than be usurped by a younger more agile competitor.
Posted on: 2012/2/7 20:15
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How advanced a nation is home to so many rural and urban regions where living conditions can resemble those of third-world countries, with staggering levels of unemployment, poverty, and disenfranchisement? What about our high murder rates? Assault rates? Our trend of for-profit, mass incarceration combined with unusually long sentences? The refusal to abolish capital punishment? These are problems we put out of our sight but they are not the traits of an advanced, equitable society. What about homelessness, a problem urban dwellers are made aware of every day? Germany isn?t a stranger to it, but their citizens aren?t living in shanties, condemned homes without running water, starving, or begging for money at the rates that American citizens do. Again, that doesn?t seem like a particularly advanced trademark. And yes, the curtailment of civil liberties. The trend over the past decade in America has certainly been to marginalize individuals? rights when they don?t go along with a program that serves to generate more fear than security. I don?t like the idea of registering with the local authorities, but I like being harassed, bullied, or being threatened with arrest for simply taking photographs even less. Why are our purses, bags, and briefcases searched as we?re on our way to work? Why are we delayed and questioned by U.S. Customs for reasons they will not disclose? And why are they so discourteous and unprofessional? There has been significant curtailment indeed! I also disagree that our major news outlets are ?liberally biased." Rather, they are biased as forms of entertainment that tell readers and viewers what they want to hear in order to sell ad space for lousy beer, gimmicky telephones, bad movies, ugly cars, and prescription pharmaceuticals. Anyway, back to wind power... yeah. It?s probably a good investment if we?re seeking a more advanced future.
Posted on: 2012/2/7 19:39
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^^
I happen to know what you are speaking of. I lived and worked in Germany for three years, and still speak fluent German. Let me try to respond point-by-point. More advanced nation? Not so fast. Germany\'s rate of employment has fluctuated just as ours has - they went though some dreadful unemployment situations in the past. Their work ethic and management skills saved them. We have them, too. My experiences (first hand) with German health care were not good. A typical socialist health care system, where doctors don\'t care about patients, because they need to see lots of patients in a short amount of time. In my particular case, the word \"butchery\" and \"uncaring\" is an understatement. Might have been an isolated case, but I don\'t think so. Well-travelled? Perhaps, but given the weather in Hessen and the rest of Germany, I would get the #OOPS# out, too. More leisure time? - I\'ll give you that. But Japanese have only 1 week vacation, and nobody takes it, anyway. It\'s a cultural thing. Public transportation infrastructure? - I\'ll give you that. But the gas in Europe costs two times more than in the US, and these taxes are apparently not enough to subsidize the social benefits, which they are desperately cutting now. We piss away gas taxes, and so do they. Curtailment of civil liberties? You have got to be kidding me. In Germany, you have to report to the local Police when you change place of residence. When I arrived back in Germany 10 years after I left my assignment there, the Border Policeman swiped my passport and asked if I still have residence in Wiesbaden. Nein, nicht mehr, I said. I should have added Gott Sei Dank, but I did not want to piss him off. Journalism. It is heavily skewed towards liberalism in the US. Same thing in Germany. I read Financial Times Deutschland (ftd.de) on a regular basis, so I have some cred here. Shipping manufacturing to China - agree 100%. That is almost treason, IMO. Unsure retirement - turns out that the retirement is not so sure in Germany, either. They cannot pay the piper.
Posted on: 2012/2/7 16:02
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