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Re: Steven Fulop & Guy Catrillo, trying to turn it into a two-man Downtown council race; accusations
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According to the Catrillo myspace page, it seems the Fulop abatement votes are for: 1) The Beacon (Ward E?) 2) 5 year abatements downtown 3) a 20 yr abatement for a Waldo/ PADNA bldg 4) abatements for low income or market rate ("affordable"?) housing 5) construction in other wards where they need the help http://blogs.myspace.com/guycatrillo The only ones in question are 1) and 2) and 3) Fulop said in old campaign literature that he's against further abatements. It seems he's flexible. Two of those projects are are preserving/ revitalizing a neighborhood with the construction as a linchpin. The other is for a 5 yr abatement. It's not clear, though it sounds like that's Fulop's restrained use of supporting abatements: special cases; low-income or market rate; other wards... not 30 yr abatements, granted without question, for 500 unit downtown condos. Quote:
Exactly...they all voted for tax abatements...Fulop too. They all take campaign contributions from developers...Fulop too. ... Okay, so is I rob 1 bank and they rob 3 ..does it make me any less a bank robber?
That makes him less of a bank robber, or perhaps a different breed. I'm not saying this is Robin Hood stuff. I'm saying that the votes in question might have a more legitimate basis in the Fulop mind.

Posted on: 2009/5/12 12:30
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Re: My choice for Mayor and Council on May 12, 2009...
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I'll be voting for positive change we can believe in, want to see, and can see.

By which I mean: Levin/ Fulop.

Otherwise it's slow change/ no change.

Posted on: 2009/5/12 5:49
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Re: Steven Fulop & Guy Catrillo, trying to turn it into a two-man Downtown council race; accusations fly
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Quote:

GrovePath wrote:
For it being an unimportant story - you seem like you can't stop posting to this thread!
Quote:

alanwright wrote:
Thank you, Grove Path, for posting another unimportant news story from the JC Reporter.


All of my posts about the HPNA board... the subject of the OP... had the same theme: this is unimportant.

My most recent post above was about a different topic raised by ogden1: Guy Catrillo playing duck, duck, squab.

Posted on: 2009/5/12 5:43
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Re: Steven Fulop & Guy Catrillo, trying to turn it into a two-man Downtown council race; accusations fly
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ogden1 wrote: Quote:
Seems the best you can come up with is the "squab" incident.
This use of the passive voice - "the squab incident" - grossly distorts the incident in question. We didn't "come up with" the squab incident simply to defame; Catrillo chose to dishonor the fallen heroes and victims of 9/11 through his cheapness and bad planning. That tells us something important about the candidate: if Guy Catrillo cannot do serious things seriously, then he's not a serious candidate. At the time, his answer was to joke about it: at least the birds are free, instead of being dinner, etc. Mistakes happen, and honest mistakes honestly happen. But, some mistakes are so absurd, sad, humorous, and disgraceful that they should not be washed away by the passive voice and ignored at the slightest convenience.

Posted on: 2009/5/11 19:06
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Re: Just wanted to thank the garbage men for the 6am wake up call this morning.
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Blame Detroit and Washington: no new internal combustion (diesel) engine technology "in more than" 100 years.

Get a green garbage truck and it'll be quieter. The offense isn't the garbageman or the garbage... it's the truck noises.

"In America, innovation eats you."

Posted on: 2009/5/8 23:24
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Re: Steven Fulop & Guy Catrillo, trying to turn it into a two-man Downtown council race; accusations fly
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oskilo wrote:

Quote:

FULL DISCLOSURE: Although I?m the HPNA President, I?m NOT responding on behalf of the HPNA itself.


Thanks for all this clarification to angel3, but for me this is an HPNA fight. Not an election fight. So, the thrill is gone.

But, the idea that you're responding in your personal capacity alone seems like a difficult proposition.

Posted on: 2009/5/8 19:53
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Re: Election Gets Nasty: Embankment's Developer, Steve Hyman Launches $150G "Anyone-but-Healy" Campaign!
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Greenvillechick... you're now my favorite poster! Hilarious.

(Sorry, saabconv, you're taking a backseat (in my Saab) en route to White Mana.)

Posted on: 2009/5/8 18:59
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Re: Double dipping on JC Council
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Quote:

Binky wrote:
The practice also centralizes control over a wide range of city services.
Contribute help to the opposition and you could find it difficult, for example, to get permits for any number of things. Or get that tree pruned by the parks dept. Or get that temporary C of O for the Art Tour. Or the flooding of the sewer on that corner fixed by the MUA.
You get the idea.
Contribute to a political candidate, and your name goes on the public record. You might want to think twice about it if you have a government job, or wish to do business with the city.
Why do you think these folks take multiple low paying jobs in the public sector? Its for the power.
The power to reward your friends and punish your enemies.


Agreed. And city job-holders and unions are often co-opted for political purposes. Even cops. With political appointees (a/k/a "hacks"), that's a guarantee.

Posted on: 2009/5/8 18:56
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Re: Steven Fulop & Guy Catrillo, trying to turn it into a two-man Downtown council race; accusations
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PEOPLE: This is still an unimportant story. Grove Path and Richard Kaulessar cannot change that fact. Email tit-for-tat IS NOT, IS NOT, IS NOT, a real election issue... no matter how much disagreement there is about how it arose.

ogden1 wrote:
Quote:

The Fulop camp took a PERSONAL email and started this nonsense.


It's not nonsense to respond to Catrillo's team's criticism, including the newspaper ads.

Quote:

FULOP'S TEAM MADE IT PUBLIC, with misinformation.


Obviously the original email is not public. They made it's existence public by responding with their view on their website. So what?

Quote:

It was not sent to a COMMUNITY distribution list. THIS IS A LIE. It was sent to personal friends.


Maybe it's not a LIE, but just a misunderstanding. Either way, so what? That seems like it's the only thing that Fulop's team did "wrong." They are well within their rights to respond to criticism, but wrong to say it was a "community list" by which we mean an HPNA group list.

Quote:

Some of [HPNA], who consider themselves erudite and righteous, are way out of line. They need to step up professionally and hone their interpersonal skills...


You're probably right.

If we believe that the HPNA lashed out against the angel3, the former Board member, the "evil-doer" here sounds like the HPNA, not Fulop, Catrillo, or angel.

If the email was not on HPNA letterhead and could not be confused with a sanctioned HPNA communiction, then they're being politically naive that their organization cannot withstand dissent.

Perhaps Fulop misunderstood that it wasn't official. Perhaps HPNA fed that misunderstanding. In any case, Fulop's team was responding to Catrillo team criticism, or what they understood to be emails from "vocal and key volunteers to the Catrillo campaign."

So what? They did it in a noninvasive way without slinging (much) mud.

Posted on: 2009/5/8 18:11
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Re: Double dipping on JC Council
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Quote:

r_pinkowitz wrote:

My comment about the Gaughan children is because they are not "high" paid employees. One is appointed as the council aide and has had this position for as long as I can recall. Our council people can appoint their aides and it is legal to appoint an aide that is a relative, doesn't live in the ward...

The other daughter was not given a no show job and she is always working. I do not know her exact salary...


OK. Sorry for the delay. It seems some of the "regulars" here treat the "newbies" with disdain. How typical of JC! Of course, there are new folks at election time so it's a sort of a dance. I, however, use my real name, have my email visible, and have 100 posts over several years. I'm very much a "real" person.

The point seems lost now that I've gotten back to it, but I would like to say this:

* thank you for stating your personal experience with these folks.

* the websites you link to demonstrate that Gaughan daughters do have *other* decently-paying public jobs in addition the jobs as aides. that means they have access the rest of us do not, and may well be in Hudson County politics for another 40 years. (maybe she'll run for the pop's job one day...)

* as you concede, they got their feet in the door through their father, and we all know somebody else is equally or better qualified to do those jobs regardless of how hard they work.

Add it all together and, regardless of the "legality" or being hired as a low-paid "aide," the position entitles and insulates the politically-connected from the public responsibilities. Indeed, as I voter I may be less willing to criticize, confront, or otherwise engage my councilman if his aide is a personally-entrenched bulwark defender of his interests... and not a wizened assistant.

Posted on: 2009/5/8 17:35
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Re: Election Gets Nasty: Embankment's Developer, Steve Hyman Launches $150G "Anyone-but-Healy" Campaign!
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Quote:

LoKo498 wrote:
Ive heard last night that some of the people on Healys team are jumping onto the Manzo team because they got a report from the numbers that came in.


I'd rather have 4 more years than Healy than Lou Manzo. That guy is crud. And in a divided field, he seems like he'll take votes from Healy alone. Not enough to help anyone but Levin, though.

Posted on: 2009/5/8 16:58
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Re: Teachers union boss criticizes Fulop in letter to members
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GrovePath wrote:

Quote:

"He can advise them. But he does not have the ability to politicize and campaign via the school system," Fulop said.

Favia did not return phone calls for comment, but Steve Baker, a spokesman for the New Jersey Education Association, defended Favia's action.

"The First Amendment applies," Baker said. "It's completely permissible for him to communicate his opinion, particularly when he's communicating specifically to members of the Association."


Is Baker an attorney? Because this seems like a pretty shallow First Amendment analysis if that's all there is to it.

In context, Favia's letter is clearly intended to influence the election, and it did not originate from the union PAC.

I call shenanigans.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 16:12
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Quote:

Greenvillechick wrote:
It should not be the basis for a ban. In all actuality some dog parks have strict rules about letting other dogs come in and must go through a tempermant test... why not impliment that for apartment buildings as well?


That's what I was driving at. If "my" theory above is the basis for the ban, it makes many assumptions about the basis for the risk, and that risk can be avoided through "less restrictive means."

Posted on: 2009/5/7 16:04
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Re: Embankment - Where do the candidates stand?
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.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 16:01
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Re: Embankment - Where do the candidates stand?
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longest post ever

Posted on: 2009/5/7 16:00
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Re: Election Gets Nasty: Embankment's Developer, Steve Hyman Launches $150G "Anyone-but-Healy" Campaign!
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Despite Hyman's obvious intentions, is it true? Has Healy done anything for Lafayette or Greenville? Or, for African-Americans, Hispanics, or people of color in general?

For that matter, have Richardson (Lafayette), Sottolano (Greenville), Flood (at-large), Vega (at-large)? Or Nidia Lopez?

All these people are on the Healy ticket, and some of them are people of color so would know better than I would.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 15:43
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Re: Steven Fulop for Council - Ward E
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Woah... what happened to all the other posts on this thread. Somebody's been editing.

...

Also, for me Fulop is the only choice. He's got a good thing going and Catrillo is the mayor's selection to derail the Fulop Express. I don't suppose it works to get a guy "out of nowhere" to run against the only councilman who anyone respects.

Catrillo may be a nice guy, but the squab thing is indicative of his seriousness as a candidate, his professionalism, and his "fiscal responsibility".

The New York Times' Richard Lenzin Jones explained it best:

Quote:

It was meant to be a dignified tribute on Sept. 11: a flock of doves soaring majestically past Lower Manhattan's altered skyline. There was only one problem. Those weren't doves. They were pigeons. And many of them couldn't fly.

During the memorial service here last week, many of the birds plunged into the Hudson River, smacked into plate-glass windows on office buildings and careered into the crowd. One perched atop the hard hat of a construction worker whose company had helped clear ground zero.

The problem was that instead of finding trained doves or homing pigeons, Catrillo went to a Newark poultry market "and bought 80 squabs, not knowing that the weak-winged birds would have trouble flying."



Also, his participation in a city-wide opposition to reassessments twenty years ago in meaningless now. As to the VVP presidency, it may well be also. When was it?

Dante Alighieri and Lincoln Park Assoc. are meaningless also.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 15:16
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Re: Steven Fulop & Guy Catrillo, trying to turn it into a two-man Downtown council race; accusations fly
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GrovePath wrote:

Quote:

Stated in the e-mail is the following: "The Catrillo Campaign does not support this selective suppression of freedom of speech... This business of requesting an apology from someone who expressed their personal views in a private email is an outrageous infringement on one?s civil rights and freedom of speech. "


Thank you, Grove Path, for posting another unimportant news story from the JC Reporter.

So, Catrillo thought it would be best to respond to the HPNA with sweeping accusations of "undemocracy"? Okay, that's amateurish and undiplomatic.

Quote:

In the e-mail, the Catrillo team also calls out the HPNA for allegedly having several board members who are supporters of Fulop, referred to in the e-mail as "the Current Councilman."

Also, the Catrillo team requests in their e-mail the HPNA disclose before tonight's debate, which Catrillo still plans to attend, "if any HPNA Board member, selecting questions for the debate, has publicly endorsed or supported the election efforts of any Ward E candidate ..."


Who the Board members support or "endorse" personally is irrelevant. For one, they're not important enough people for anyone to care.

It seems like the HPNA was either trying to circle their institutional wagons or clarify that the Board member's views were her own. Both are legitimate organizational motives.

Second, the HPNA "endorsement" probably doesn't mean anything. However, they should not circle their wagons around Fulop yet if they expect to have a legitimate debate.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 15:13
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Re: Abandoned funeral home on Jersey at 4th St.
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Funeraria Las Americas
591 Jersey Ave
Jersey City, NJ 07302
(201) 435-8223‎

tax info for that property:
https://www.cityofjerseycity.com/WebTa ... ummary.aspx?Account=30643

p.s. the way to use that site is by putting as much of the address onto the "property location" line of this site

https://www.cityofjerseycity.com/WebTaxInquiry/AccountSearch.aspx

and then select the correct property

*************

past disciplinary matters (paid off. not enough to bankrupt):

G) #05-128 Funeraria Las Americas, Jersey City, uniform penalty letter for violation of N.J.A.C. 13:36-5.6, 13:36-5.5(a)(4), 13:36-5.6(b), 13:36-5.21(b), 13:36-9.7(d)(2), 13:36-9.6(b)(2), 13:36-1.9(a)(2), and 13:36-5.1(b) paid $3,850.00 October 21, 2005.

H) #05-129 Funeraria Las Americas, Newark, uniform penalty letter for violation of N.J.A.C. 13:36-5.21(b), 13:36-9.7(d)(2), 13:36-9.6 (b)(2), 13:36-1.9(a)(2), 13:36-9.5(b)(1), and 13:36-9.6(b)(1) paid $2000.00 October 21, 2005.

I) #05-130 Funeraria Las Americas, Paterson, uniform penalty letter for violation of N.J.A.C. 13:36-5.6, 13:36-5.5(a)(4), 13:36-5.6(b), 13:36-5.5(a)(3), 13:36-5.21(b), 13:36-9.7(d)(2), 13:36-9.6(b)(2), 13:36-1.9(a)(2), and 13:36-5.1(b) paid $2350.00 October 21, 2005.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 14:18
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Re: Embankment- Update Thread
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Thank you. Of course, the overhead lines adds a little risk to the situation. If others on this board are right, people want to jump/ fall off the embankment and directly onto the overhead lines/ train track!

Posted on: 2009/5/7 13:26
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Pit bulls aren't large. And they're not "menacing" as a breed, though there is that 'spark' that was bred into them, and which bad human behavior can bring forth. Also, as terriers they can be snippy and territorial. This often true of ratters, and a dachsund is more a terrier than a hound.

It doesn't seem like anyone is suggesting that the conditions of housing projects encourage such ferocity (density, verticality, noise), or that the residents in housing projects do (fixed incomes, poverty, people of color primarily).

However, we've seen things anecdotally and our beliefs are reinforced by the media: certain communities are "afraid" of dogs because dogs do not present only companionship, but represent authority (cops), protection ("junk yard dogs"), and thug status or toughness (the rott/ pits on chains). Etc.

Assuming what I've written is a legitimate theory - which it may not be - does it justify banning pit bulls and other large dogs? Is it the basis for the ban?

Posted on: 2009/5/7 13:17
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Re: Embankment- Update Thread
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Thanks.

A "new" idea occurred to me:

* Embankment into a park, as discussed.

* 6th Street one-way westbound.

* light rail on 6th street connecting whereever in the northwest to Th. Gangemi/ Newport Mall, and back.

* along the way, the light rail would pass by FOUR parks (Mary Benson, Enos Jones, Embankment, and the 6th/ Manila baseball field).

Yep. 6th street is wide enough to accomodate the light rail and one-way only traffic. The walkway next to the Embankment would not be necessary because the Embankment would be a footpath and there's a sidewalk on the other side.

The light rail would go two-ways. Some streets are similar to this in Paulus Hook. Most of 6th is one way already.

Cons: Holy Rosary and St. Anthony of Padua's would object. So would the two-many drivers who use it as a cut-through to get back to Newark Avenue. (But we should not encourage that, anyway). Also, there's a parking question, but a light rail encourages car-less living.

Pros: their parishioners love to take the light rail! Running the light rail at street level satisfies the Mayor and other light rail aficionados, secures the park, connects the downtown (incl. park) to the Heights and other constituencies.

Also, why make the light rail climb onto the embankment if it doesn't have to? Lots of wasted energy there.

Posted on: 2009/5/6 12:49
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Re: Double dipping on JC Council
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r_pinkowitz wrote:

Quote:


I totally agree with you on no-show jobs, and I am 100% in favor of hiring people based on their resume...


...unless nepotism helps the arts community.

Posted on: 2009/5/5 0:09
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Re: Embankment- Update Thread
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Why do you believe JERSEY CITY preservationists want to save "everything"? THEY DON'T.

We know the answer, so don't bother: you disagree with their vision of what should be preserved, except that you're glad some preserved things are still intact: Loews. Stanley. Dickinson High. Hague Hospital (now with a new use). You look at a building, and, just by looking at it, you know it's inherent value in that role at that time, and forever into the future for all possible roles and all possible times.

Recall that you capitalized EVERYTHING four or five times, and put it in quotes as well, and then said the Embankment and the Power House constitute "everything"-ish blight. Thus, you apparently DO believe JC preservationists want to save everything. They don't. (P.S. I'm not one). THEY SET PRIORITIES, as you admit, though those priorities are not yours, or the priorities may change as circumstances change.
Here are some priorities: http://www.jclandmarks.org/campaign-bergenarches.shtml

Because you consider the Embankment to be "junk" and "blight", the preservationists who look to preserve it are not good preservationists. You don't value parks, apparently. You want more real estate! Either you work in (de)construction, or real estate... because if you want more density and less green space, self-interest must be your motive. So, do you?

You did not answer whether you think these properties can be "saved" for a use you consider a productive, beneficial use, so we can only speculate as to what a good purpose is for you, the Emperor of Persia and Preservation. A good preservationist is one preserves what His Highness wants preserved because it serves "a real purpose." Apparently, preservation cannot be for it's own sake. Only for a modern, purposive sake. If something loses it's purpose, and is in your view unsightly or geographically divisive, it should be torn down before any non-purposive use, as only you deem them to be, can be considered for the site. The only exception to that rule was the Hague hospital, which you want filled with suburbanite yuppy condo-owners, which you deem to be an acceptable modern re-use of an old structure.

Posted on: 2009/5/5 0:06
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Re: 'World class' waterfront park planned for Paulus Hook
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PHResident wrote:

Quote:


First, let me start by saying that I hope their vision comes to fruition, but I have my doubts...

The five parcels of land that they are interested in developing into a cohesive park are all owned by different entities...

I also believe that they have no buy in, let alone any commitments, from any of the other remaining property owners. My best guess is that the City might be the lone party with some interest because they are often looking for ways to not have to cough up any money...

Again, I hope that I am wrong, but I have my doubts.

Finally, having been part of the gestation of this group, and knowing some of the shenanigans that went on during that time, I have some serious doubts that the organization is put together well enough...


Thank you for these comments. I agree whole-heartedly with your concerns about the park group's (not a conservancy) grip on reality, the funding question, the political will, and the concessions from 5+ groups. Also, they're simply cutting in line. There are many other parks which need a face-lift, but it's apparent those parks are in the "wrong" zip code.

I voiced similar comments here:
http://www.wearenew.com/blog/2008/5/2 ... -fundraiser.html#comments

The relevant point of agreement is the park org and their work, as I consider them:

An untested organization, as new as November 2007, who admits it will have to compete against the several other stakeholders/ power-brokers who own the land, and whom may have their own "designs" for it despite community feedback. Get real! Jersey City powerbrokers may support the project because they also see the benefit, but they're not pushovers.

I wish the JCWPC and Matt Johnson the best with this project to fix up that blighted park, but at $100, this fundraiser is a major turn-off. Until the JCWPC can show me they've made solid, measurable progress, have won over the zoning board, have the stakeholders on board, have approval from the mayor and council, or have advanced to the stage where actually hiring a landscape architect to frame up the park concept is the right item on the agenda... my tin is staying in my purse and under my mattress.


Jon Whiten (formerly of City Belt, then of New Magazine, and now of Jersey City Independent) replied thoughtfully.

Posted on: 2009/5/4 21:57
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Re: New rules to address noise complaints for restaurants and nightclubs
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GnomeGeneral wrote:

Quote:

I wonder if you would be saying that if the light horse tavern turned into a dive bar where shitty bands played until 2 am. Bar clientele changes, the one next door to me was quiet and then all the hipster losers with handlebar mustaches discovered it...


Lamp Post?!

Posted on: 2009/5/4 14:04
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Re: Double dipping on JC Council
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jcecker wrote:

Quote:

Does not one hold the position as chairperson of the Jersey City Municipal Utilities Authority...


She's doing such a good job, so we should look the other way.

http://www.jcmua.com/board_of_commissioners.htm

Posted on: 2009/5/4 3:47
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Re: Double dipping on JC Council
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We agree nepotism is procedurally bad. I am disturbed by the suggestion that Gaughan's daughters should be excluded from such consideration. Electeds' relatives may receive nepotism based on pressure, regardless of merit. Thus, the daughters are IN. Jimmy wanted proof that the daughters earned their position. Nobody has proven this.

If you think we should "leave them out of it" simply because you've observed good work/ yeoman grunt work/ volunteerism/ emails being forwarded... then that is a different question. They may be good workers, but there is still the appearance of impropriety in it. If you agree that such appearances are procedural problems, then do not apologize for them.

Thus, I was interested in knowing why artists want to treat with kid gloves the political issue of nepotism for an arts-friendly nepotee. I am not attacking YOU. I am questioning your objectivity. That would be an ad hominem from circumstance, not one to be insulting or abusive, as it is when questioning the mind-power of others. Your personal knowledge is insightful, but your personal relationship or bias, if any, may be fatal to your position. We now know you have a meager acquaintance with her.

Note: I wrote more, but I'm leaving it out. It will only change the subject further and prolong the boring confusion.

Posted on: 2009/5/4 2:27
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Re: Double dipping on JC Council
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googlebog wrote:
Quote:

Corey Booker is on leave from his partnership in the BOOKER, RABINOWITZ, TRENK, LUBETKIN, TULLY, DiPASQUALE & WEBSTER in Newark. This law firm holds numerous contracts in both Jersey City government [ like the incinerator and housing authority to name two] along with numerous financial firms like Goldman Sachs and developers. Elnardo Webster was Bobby Jackson, Joe Cardwell?s, Glen Cunningham?s attorney.


That could be an interesting point... but that firm no longer exists in that form (several new or different partners). And it's now based in West Orange under a different name.

If Booker is "on leave" then I assume he would not be receiving distributions from their retainers or billable hours. With the new firm, Trenk, he's not a partner... so I assume he is not receiving distributions.

Then there are other questions:

Whether Booker, as a then councilman-lawyer, had any role in securing those retainers. We couldn't know. The Goldman contracts are irrelevant because that's private $.

And in-firm conflicts which would prevent Booker from getting too close:

* Bobby Jackson: Served in the 80s. Helped Sandra Cunningham in 2007. Now deceased. Apparently retained a different attorney at Trenk, not Booker.

* Joe Cardwell: a Healy appointment. A Sandra Cunningham advisor. Apparently retained a different attorney at Trenk, not Booker.

Thus, a conflicts-check might show too many ties to JC is impossible for Booker as an attorney or Trenk as a firm.

Long story short: Booker is not a JC "insider" in the way you are trying to suggest. That he was a partner at a firm which represented divisions of JC government under a different mayor, and one of his co-partners represented Jersey City residents... tells us very little.

Posted on: 2009/5/4 0:37
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Re: Double dipping on JC Council
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BrightMoment wrote:

Quote:

So should I damn Booker's "insider" support for Mayor Healy even though Booker is doing good for Newark? Not black & white is it alanwright?


Leave the black/white dichotomy aside. Nobody holds that position. Certainly not me.

Booker is not a Jersey City insider because he does not derive benefits from JC in the way we're considering: relatives being hired, no-show jobs, parking ticket scams, etc.

He may be a political or party ally, but not an insider. Thus, his support for Healy and whatever he's doing good for Newark have no bearing on this.

Posted on: 2009/5/3 23:24
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