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Re: New Amazon HQ
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A large question remains to be answered: there were other cities and states offering quite a bit more in incentives. For instance, Newark had about six billion dollars in the pot. So why did Amazon choose the NY area? They had to know that Unions were going to scramble to get into their buildings (they're presently trying to organize a hundred million dollar Staten Island distribution center). When this thing is looked at under closer scrutiny I've a feeling that more reasoning of a personal nature (read Bezos) will come to light. There's more than meets the eye and good investigative journalism will uncover it.

Posted on: 2/18 13:09
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bodhipooh wrote:
De Blasio doesn't seem able to decide who to blame, but in typical coward style, he is pointing fingers and engaging in a musical chairs game of finger pointing and assigning blame: he is blaming Amazon, but also pointing the finger at AOC over her lack of understanding of the agreed incentive deal. Of course, in typical far left fashion, AOC is now asking (demanding?) that the 3 billions from the Amazon deal be spent in hiring teachers and putting people to work. Except that there never was 3 billion of cash sitting around and being handed over to Amazon... it was just tax credits, and only after certain thresholds were reached.
all around mess...poor communications/community outreach by everyone including amazon. i personally still think ~$3 billion in incentives is weigh too much. why not $500 million? why not $10 billion?


There is no doubt that Amazon played hardball by orchestrating a highly publicized site selection process that pit city against city in an effort to extract concessions and incentives. I don't think that can be rationally argued against or denied. BUT, I truly do believe that the overall incentive package provided by NYS/NYC was going to be more than made up for over the same time frame in increased revenue generation (direct taxation, and indirect/ancillary revenue from the effects of such a large workforce coming to the area) and I am convinced that a lot of the people that agitated against HQ2 in LIC were more concerned about burnishing their reputations and credentials than about the constituencies they claim to represent or protect. Not every job coming to HQ2 was going to be tech-related or white collar; there would have been a huge amount of blue collar jobs that would have benefited the people who already live there and struggle.

At the end of the day, Amazon cancelling their plans to build in LIC will have lingering effects for a long time: other companies considering ambitious plans of this scale will be leery, and getting 25,000 jobs generated in LIC through some other means will prove REALLY difficult, or damn near impossible. While AOC and her ilk are gloating and congratulating each other, proclaiming their success in "beating a billionaire" they fail (or, refuse?) to do the hard work of offering alternative or backup plans, so the average person looking for a job is left asking "what about me?"

For a nuanced take, see here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/aakashkum ... zon-pullout/#1563050d2e1a

Posted on: 2/18 10:39
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De Blasio doesn't seem able to decide who to blame, but in typical coward style, he is pointing fingers and engaging in a musical chairs game of finger pointing and assigning blame: he is blaming Amazon, but also pointing the finger at AOC over her lack of understanding of the agreed incentive deal. Of course, in typical far left fashion, AOC is now asking (demanding?) that the 3 billions from the Amazon deal be spent in hiring teachers and putting people to work. Except that there never was 3 billion of cash sitting around and being handed over to Amazon... it was just tax credits, and only after certain thresholds were reached.
all around mess...poor communications/community outreach by everyone including amazon. i personally still think ~$3 billion in incentives is weigh too much. why not $500 million? why not $10 billion?

Posted on: 2/18 9:46
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De Blasio doesn't seem able to decide who to blame, but in typical coward style, he is pointing fingers and engaging in a musical chairs game of finger pointing and assigning blame: he is blaming Amazon, but also pointing the finger at AOC over her lack of understanding of the agreed incentive deal. Of course, in typical far left fashion, AOC is now asking (demanding?) that the 3 billions from the Amazon deal be spent in hiring teachers and putting people to work. Except that there never was 3 billion of cash sitting around and being handed over to Amazon... it was just tax credits, and only after certain thresholds were reached.

Posted on: 2/18 7:14
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Yes,,,, typical progressive posturing... I was for it before I was against it. Or vice versa. LOL

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now, de blasio is changing his tune and slamming amazon...lol...he's almost as bad as trump. how can he slam amazon when he and cuomo and others were enablers?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/20 ... w-york-mayor-slams-amazon

Posted on: 2/18 5:58
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now, de blasio is changing his tune and slamming amazon...lol...he's almost as bad as trump. how can he slam amazon when he and cuomo and others were enablers?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/20 ... w-york-mayor-slams-amazon

Posted on: 2/18 1:43
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what cuomo, de blasio, amazon and so many others should have paid more attention to local concerns. maybe many residents of LIC don't want their neighborhood gentrifying on steroids, maybe amazon is aggessively anti-union. there are so many other cosiderations between dollars and cents


Not a single poll showed popular local support for defeating the Amazon plan. This was all posturing by political players. Any time something big comes along in our country, the players come out of the woodwork asking "what's in it for me?" And if they don't "get their beak wet" they'll bring it down. Congressional gridlock is bad in no small part to the demise of the "earmark" bribery system.

Posted on: 2/18 0:58

Edited by brewster on 2019/2/18 1:18:44
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Here are the current jobs that Amazon Advertising is currently hiring for in NYC. These aren't desirable jobs?

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/business_ca ... t=10&sort=relevant&cities[]=New%20York%2C%20New%20York%2C%20USA&distanceType=Mi&radius=24km&latitude=&longitude=&loc_group_id=&loc_query=&base_query=&city=&country=®ion=&county=&query_options=&


$3 billion in tax cuts for $30 billion in revenue. You do the math.
what cuomo, de blasio, amazon and so many others should have paid more attention to local concerns. maybe many residents of LIC don't want their neighborhood gentrifying on steroids, maybe amazon is aggessively anti-union. there are so many other cosiderations between dollars and cents

Posted on: 2/18 0:20
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Kurtmcdirt wrote:
Here are the current jobs that Amazon Advertising is currently hiring for in NYC. These aren't desirable jobs?

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/business_ca ... t=10&sort=relevant&cities[]=New%20York%2C%20New%20York%2C%20USA&distanceType=Mi&radius=24km&latitude=&longitude=&loc_group_id=&loc_query=&base_query=&city=&country=®ion=&county=&query_options=&


$3 billion in tax cuts for $30 billion in revenue. You do the math.

Posted on: 2/18 0:04
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Here are the current jobs that Amazon Advertising is currently hiring for in NYC. These aren't desirable jobs?

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/business_ca ... t=10&sort=relevant&cities[]=New%20York%2C%20New%20York%2C%20USA&distanceType=Mi&radius=24km&latitude=&longitude=&loc_group_id=&loc_query=&base_query=&city=&country=®ion=&county=&query_options=&

Posted on: 2/17 20:31
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I admit, I haven’t been following super closely, but I don’t think I’ve seen any kind of breakdown of job categories the HQ2 would bring? What’s to say a majority wouldn’t be H1B visa workers? I know there’s an annual cap but according to data on myvisajobs.com, Amazon seems to be in the lead for its industry for the past years, here is 2019 H1B applications list: Industry: Electronic shopping and mail order houses

For 2019, Amazon was ranked #12 on the top 100 H1B visa sponsor list: 2019 top 100 H1B sponsors

Amazon seems to hold similar placements on the Green Card sponsor lists, although technically, I guess those workers could be locals from Long Island City...


The observant reader will also notice that the average salary listed for each of those companies is ~125K. I fail to see how that is a problem. An Amazon employee working in NYC, regardless of nationality or visa status, would be required to pay the same federal and state income taxes as a US citizen.

Regardless, there is no way Amazon could (or, would want) to fill all the HQ2 jobs with H1B visa holders. I have worked with enough of them to know they are hard workers and usually very motivated, but they are usually not leading most development teams of which I have been a part: they are usually team members, not team leads.

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The observant reader will also see that numbers 3, 4, 6 and 7 on the Electronic Shopping and Mail Order Houses industry list are also Amazon companies...

Posted on: 2/17 13:22
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I admit, I haven’t been following super closely, but I don’t think I’ve seen any kind of breakdown of job categories the HQ2 would bring? What’s to say a majority wouldn’t be H1B visa workers? I know there’s an annual cap but according to data on myvisajobs.com, Amazon seems to be in the lead for its industry for the past years, here is 2019 H1B applications list: Industry: Electronic shopping and mail order houses

For 2019, Amazon was ranked #12 on the top 100 H1B visa sponsor list: 2019 top 100 H1B sponsors

Amazon seems to hold similar placements on the Green Card sponsor lists, although technically, I guess those workers could be locals from Long Island City...

Posted on: 2/17 13:12
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Interesting read.... laughed at the quote about economists reassessing their position that the new technical world would float everyone to the top of the prosperity mountain. They promoted a global economy that would transcend nation states / borders as economic zones (EU / NAFTA) and big business changed the world.

Washington DC and American Big Business sold out the American worker in the 90s promising our future prosperity was moving away from old middle class manufacturing jobs to the "new" service economy jobs today, whose results are described perfectly by the writer.

The bubble in the new service economy burst when offshoring jobs became the norm and importing of contract tech workers at half the salaries of Americans destroyed the middle class job market and career paths.




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What Amazon got wrong about New York City

https://www.theverge.com/interface/201 ... ecy-incentives-automation

Posted on: 2/17 3:38
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If people read Amazon's statement they would see the part where Amazon says they already have 5,000 workers in NYC and they will add more. NYC is going to get the tax revenue from these workers and not have to give the world's richest man any incentives.


A good portion of those existing jobs are not the type of high paying jobs that would have come from having HQ2 here. The cumulative loss in salaries is almost 4 BILLION annually. And the loss for NYS and NYC will be about 300 million annually in personal income tax revenue that will not be realized, plus additional labor taxes not paid by the employees.

The state (and the city) bent over backwards because the the projected revenue from those 25K jobs would have paid for those incentives over time, and then some.
oh well, other parts of the country could use jobs too. all is not lost and nyc wil be just fine. i view this as an opportunity for amazon to spread some love.

Posted on: 2/16 23:37
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If people read Amazon's statement they would see the part where Amazon says they already have 5,000 workers in NYC and they will add more. NYC is going to get the tax revenue from these workers and not have to give the world's richest man any incentives.


A good portion of those existing jobs are not the type of high paying jobs that would have come from having HQ2 here. The cumulative loss in salaries is almost 4 BILLION annually. And the loss for NYS and NYC will be about 300 million annually in personal income tax revenue that will not be realized, plus additional labor taxes not paid by the employees.

The state (and the city) bent over backwards because the the projected revenue from those 25K jobs would have paid for those incentives over time, and then some.

Posted on: 2/16 23:32
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If people read Amazon's statement they would see the part where Amazon says they already have 5,000 workers in NYC and they will add more. NYC is going to get the tax revenue from these workers and not have to give the world's richest man any incentives.

Posted on: 2/16 16:29
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obama, brexit, trump, 5-star, scott walker and foxconn, gilets jaunes, amazon h20

Posted on: 2/16 12:24
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The people will be just fine, just as Bezos will be just fine without 3 billion dollars of the people's money. It's time someone stood up against corporate handouts that screw everyone else. Thank god for liberals.

Posted on: 2/16 8:26
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Bs. This was a huge loss for Queens and it will never recuperate from it.
Short sighted liberal bs. Nothing more!

Posted on: 2/16 3:31
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Good for NY and LIC. Corporate vampires like Amazon and their pet Governor Cuomo needed to be put into their place before they ruin the city.

Posted on: 2/15 17:15
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Even with the "welfare" 25K highly paid jobs pouring money into the local economy was nothing to sneeze at.

Actually, it is. 25k employees is a drop in the bucket. And it's not like they were going to hire a bunch of high school graduates, and pay them double the prevailing wage for those jobs.

The scare quotes are not justified; this is definitely corporate welfare, to a company with a market cap close to $800 billion, and that made $5.7 billion in profits and paid zero federal taxes in 2017.


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The nation is becoming a "bitchocracy", rule by the loudest and most offended.

Or... not.

To start with, public outcry was not invented in December 2018. It's part and parcel of society, and it has never been perfectly proportionate, and seldom mediated by careful reflection on the part of the mob. What changes is the criteria for public disapproval. Once upon a time, it was homosexual behavior, or being Catholic, or having an affair, or being black, that incurred public rage. Now, it's racism and sexual assault. Boo...?

To continue, that's not what happened here. Amazon secured huge benefits for their NYC HQ with a bunch of politicians, and thought it was a done deal. I hate to agree with Di Blasio on this, as he is clearly trying to cover his ass, but: Amazon clearly chickened out. Big projects like this always incur opposition in NYC. Bloomberg got shot down for his Hudson Yards stadium; opposition to the Barclays Center was huge; heck, just moving the Washington Square Fountain over by a few feet resulted in protests and lawsuits. They folded after 3 months.

And while generally I like and use Amazon, I'm not down with its high-handed screw-the-locals attitude. Companies pull this kind of crap all the time, wringing concessions out of local politicians (who have almost no other way to generate private sector jobs, really), and then reneging on their promises. For once, some of the locals decided they were not having it. Good on them.

For a taste of the bullet that LIC probably just dodged, and the list of promises broken by these types of deals, look no further than Bloomberg News' writeup on the Foxconn Wisconsin plant:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feature ... billion-deal-with-foxconn

Posted on: 2/15 16:56
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amazon has decided not build HQ2 in Long Island City. Can't say that I'm too sad given all the financial incentives ("corporate welfare") amzn was due to receive. maybe they can expand their newark operations as well as dc and nashville.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/nyregion/amazon-hq2-queens.html


NY politicians and 'activists' trying to blackmail them into using union labor sure didn't help.

:rolleyes:

There was no "blackmail." During a council meeting, union groups that were opposed to the deal were willing to back it if Amazon agreed not to impede employee efforts to unionize. Amazon refused.

Posted on: 2/15 15:41
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A bunch of liberals out liberaling each other or maybe our prgressiving each other. Regardless of the tax break LIC will not recoup this loss with other business
so much doom and gloom as if people weren't moving to lic even before amazon showed any interest in the place. lic and nyc will be fine. they did a great job with the waterfront and public space in that area although it could use more supermarkets and restaurants (OH! and i doubt amazon would have spurred an increase in restaurants since some tech companies have free/heavily subsidized cafeterias)


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A bunch of liberals out liberaling each other or maybe our prgressiving each other. Regardless of the tax break LIC will not recoup this loss with other business

Posted on: 2/15 13:53
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nyc is not Detroit. these 25,000 jobs would be created over a LONG period. I doubt NYT was trying to do a hatchet job on amzn. oh and btw, amazonpaid ZERO federal taxes last year.

http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon- ... t-pay-federal-taxes-2019/
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TheBigGuy wrote:
The cost of doing business in NYC and NY State probably warranted the $3B incentives just for them to be in contention. 25K jobs does mean something to a local economy... especially if they are blue collar jobs.

Google and Amazon are two different business models... And why would I expect a positive article from the NYT? Bezos owns their liberal competitor WaPo. Do you really think the NYT want Bezos pitching a tent in their backyard?



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hero69 wrote:
another insightful NYT article about amazon subsidies. so, amazon got $570 million from virginia and $100 million from Nashville, yet NYC offered $3 billion? WTH?
oh, and give me a break about the 25,000 jobs that amzn was gonna bring to LIC with an average salary of $150,000. that could mean anything from 1 person making $5 million and rest make peanuts....why should taxpayers subsidize someone's $25 million salary?



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/ups ... nn-subsidies-critics.html

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The cost of doing business in NYC and NY State probably warranted the $3B incentives just for them to be in contention. 25K jobs does mean something to a local economy... especially if they are blue collar jobs.

Google and Amazon are two different business models... And why would I expect a positive article from the NYT? Bezos owns their liberal competitor WaPo. Do you really think the NYT want Bezos pitching a tent in their backyard?



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hero69 wrote:
another insightful NYT article about amazon subsidies. so, amazon got $570 million from virginia and $100 million from Nashville, yet NYC offered $3 billion? WTH?
oh, and give me a break about the 25,000 jobs that amzn was gonna bring to LIC with an average salary of $150,000. that could mean anything from 1 person making $5 million and rest make peanuts....why should taxpayers subsidize someone's $25 million salary?



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/ups ... nn-subsidies-critics.html

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I wonder how many noticed that Cuomo went to see Trump with hat in hand yesterday to get some help with that 2.3 billion shortfall in his budget a main topic of the meeting.
Think he and other NY politicos are somewhat miffed at the turn of events?

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Today's Amazon announcement is the greatest boost for Trump's re-election in 2020. He'll use this to no end bashing the Socialist, Hate Big Business Democrats - great boost for him and all Republicans running in 2020.

Thank you Ms. AOC!!

Posted on: 2/15 1:58
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