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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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I don't work for NJ Parks. Quote:
You have gone from tour buses to general tourism. I agree, some of the greatest views of NYC are from NJ. However, it is not enough to merit the creation of a tour bus route which is what you are suggesting. You have yet to tell me what route the tour bus will take to these historic sites. All you have offered so far is a hotel shuttle bus concept. Don't send me to a website which has been in my favorites for years. I am asking you to put some thought behind your so called tour bus route. I am sorry, but if you only consider the pros of some concept and refuse to look at the cons, you aren't fully recognizing the potential success or failure of a concept. Traffic is a problem. What routes would you have them take? Your solution was to have a couple of tour buses in the early morning or late evening. Again the cost of such an operation versus the revenue generated does not make it a profitable venture. And even a couple of buses at the wrong time of day along the wrong streets will draw ire from the residents. To be profitable, there would need to be a greater inflow of tourists requiring additional buses. Additional buses equals more traffic. A better question, would tourists even want to sit on a bus through JC looking at sites. Quote:
I'm not jaded. I'm a pragmatist. If you would rather have public employees just spending your tax dollars to test their theories and ideas without recognizing, or better yet, ignoring hurdles and issues that may arise, then you don't understand the responsibilities of public employees. I won't address your last comment as it does nothing to add to the discussion.
Posted on: 2012/5/23 2:10
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- Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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@JC_DowntownRegular.
If you work in NJ parks as a public employee, and are so "down" on NJ I'd be hugely disappointed in you. If you can't see the tourism potential in NJ and on the waterfront in particular, you are either living in a bubble, or are objecting for purely self-centered reasons such as - "nimby", "we don't need more traffic/congestion", "we don't need more tourists in our parks making my life more difficult". The number one reason NYC tourists should visit NJ, imo is the waterfront views. A huge number of all the iconic Manhattan photos are taken from NJ, from Fort Lee, Edgewater, Weehawken, Hoboken, Jersey City and Bayonne. The 18+ miles of waterfront walking/cycling is probably the biggest tourist draw. Also, have a look at sites like destinationjerseycity. There is a wealth of history in JC, and things to do. http://www.destinationjerseycity.com If you're a jaded public employee, can you find another job? I'd rather you don't represent my city on my tax dollars. I may use this thread as an example of public employees that should be fired.....
Posted on: 2012/5/22 7:18
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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Yes, parks and also yes, from my point of view. Quote:
That is in the end NYC's job, to keep the money there. You have yet to tell me what incentives Jersey City has. What New Jersey sites are you talking about? The only thing left of the waterfront is LSP. Is there another waterfront area? It's not worth any tour bus operators time to operate a tour with one stop. Where else would you suggest the tour bus stops? You say there is commercial potential, I say there isn't and the fact that there aren't any leads me to believe that the tour bus operators don't think so either. Come up with a tour route to lend some credibility to your argument. Quote:
A tour bus route with one stop will not draw tourism. If JC wants to keep a fraction of the tourists here to spend money here, JC needs to move along with improving the shopping and restaurant districts. They need to provide incentive for small business owners and restauranteurs to open up shop and stay in JC rather than creating obstacles. Quote:
So let's see, the MTA is moving to a metrocard free system and moving to a smart card, easy pay card, or some other tap as you go system (including metrocards that work that way), making it easier for NYC tourists. The MTA's job is not to encourage tourists to go to NJ and it is not like so many tourists that visit and stay in NYC find incentive to travel to NJ to begin with because sadly there isn't much to do here from a tourist point of view. If NJ wants to make life easier for people travelling between the states, the state should encourage NJ Transit and the PANYNJ to get on the bandwagon. Otherwise, people will just have to manage with paying for three different systems. People come to NYC to do NYC things, not NJ things. People that stay in JC or Hoboken from afar, usually do so because hotel rates are cheaper than NYC, but spend the majority of their money in NYC. You have yet to list anything that would draw more people to NJ. I'm sorry, but Liberty Science Center is not a major tourist draw. I enjoy going there, but it is not a must do on any tourist list. Liberty State Park is not a tourist draw. Part of the terminal is in decent shape but the rest of it is in poor shape. I don't see it as a major draw. The rest of the park is just like any other state or municipal park in the nation - some environmental interp programs, some historic significance, open space, barbecues. Nope nothing here that would attract people here more than any other place. Anything else in JC, Hoboken, or Bayonne that is a must see, that will draw in people? You tell me, because I just don't see it.
Posted on: 2012/5/22 0:04
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- Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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Do you manage anything related to parks, the city and tour buses? Or did you mean from your point of view? Incentives? I wasn't merely making a case for LSP. I think you have done a good job of rehashing all the disincentives that NYC uses to stop tourists from visiting NJ. Tour buses going through Bayonne, JC and Hoboken, picking up and dropping off tourists from their cruise ships and hotels, giving them an opportunity to see some of the NJ sights, explaining some of the history on the NJ waterfront - there's definitely commercial potential for tour buses to do so - but as in all things commerce-related, that's their decision. And there is commercial potential for the waterfront cities in having that kind of tour-bus captive audience. NYC has an incentive to get tourists in and out of NYC from Newark flights, Bayonne cruises, JC hotels, as fast as possible. If we can get a fraction of that tourism traffic to stop and visit NJ towns and cities by way of improved tour and transport options, imo it's worth it. And I think you missed the biggest point of my OP. The MTA phasing out metrocards will actively discourage tourists from traveling to NJ. Giving tourists the option to buy an unlimited one-day or one week travel card that they can use on the MTA, PATH and NJ Transit, gives them the option of visiting NJ. Let the tourists themselves decide how to use the card.
Posted on: 2012/5/21 7:26
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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Staten Island wouldn't provide an authentic view as you are looking down on the NYC area. I have to admit personally, I think Fort Wadsworth provides one of the best views of the region from the south, but this is not the eagle eye view immigrants had. Same goes for the VZ bridge. NY Waterway doesn't have any service to Sandy Hook or the NJ Highlands, that's the Seastreak Ferry. People get off the cruise ships in Bayonne and make a bee line for home or NYC. There is no reason for them to stop in JC. People that stay in hotels in JC spend most of their time and money in NYC. Adding a bus line to something that is already accessible for a cheaper cost will not improve tourism or revenue in JC or NJ. When I visit a city, I research where I want to go, get a map, and go. I don't waste my money on the tour bus. I agree NJ has some of the best views. I'm sorry, but as much as I enjoy going to LSC, it is not a tourist destination. People come to the NYC metropolitan area to enjoy NYC. LSC may be a stop on someone's list after they've exhausted some of the more touristy NYC sites. My kids love riding the rails and going for hikes. On the bridge - If you have the money to improve the bridge to standards acceptable to increased foot/bike traffic, I'm sure the superintendent of the Statue will gladly take your money to fix it. What's the traffic problem? It's a one way bridge that is used by box trucks, employees, and contractors. You can't see one end of the bridge from the other end as you get one. It's bad enough trying to avoid vehicles, adding pedestrians and bicycles to the mix increases the likelihood for an accident. An additional security screening site would need to be established at the entrance to the bridge. I'm sure those of us who like using the walkway that crosses at the foot of the bridge would be none to happy for the area to be closed off for screening along with lines of people waiting to get in. People complain about the 9-11 monument by the terminal, imagine the criticism when a screening checkpoint would go up. I'd bet that area would closed off on either side to have to accommodate the checkpoint. And no you can't screen them at the terminal and have them walk all the way to the bridge because that defeats the purpose of screening. Early morning or late evening trial loops? The statue opens at 0900 and closes at 1700, a little earlier and a little later, respectively, in the summer (0830-1800). What are you considering early morning and late evening? I don't believe the amount of revenue generated would exceed the expenses of operating in the area. As I said before, repeatedly, adding a bus route doesn't promote tourism or increase the revenue stream for the city. The city and state need to do a better job attracting people to come to the area. A bus route doesn't do that. As a matter of fact I don't see throngs of visitors clamoring for this. Or residents for that matter. In the end, what you suggest isn't promoting JC at all. Let's see the bus will go down Washington to Grand to Pacific and Johnston and back again. I don't see much of a tour route promoting JC there. Where would you suggest the bus go or stop? Especially when all they really want to see is the Statue. I'm not just arguing limitations, I'm telling you why it doesn't make sense, especially from a management point of view - of the parks, the city, and the tour bus operators. You haven't provided any incentive to do so? What benefit will it be to LSP? What benefit will it be to the Statue and Ellis? You claim you want to promote NJ tourism, but all you are really promoting is an increased visitation to the Statue, which technically is in NY.
Posted on: 2012/5/21 1:27
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- Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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My view is simply, "why not"? Neither you nor JC_DownTownRegular provide any reasons that are insurmountable. "We can't promote JC tourism because...". IMO if you argue for your limitations, you'll surely find them :)
Posted on: 2012/5/21 0:46
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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dtjcview,
JC_DowntownRegular posted an excellent recap of "how things work" in and around LSP/Ellis/Statue and you apparently didn't read any of it. If you wanted a "true" immigrant experience, you'd spend three weeks at the bottom of a cruise ship coming across the Atlantic. You'd then get off the cruise ship at a pier and a smaller ferry would transport you -- FROM MANHATTAN -- to Ellis Island. If you think passenger liners came in through the Narrows and sailed directly for Ellis Island, your version of an "authentic" immigrant experience is very wrong. What is people's obsession with opening the Liberty State Park bridge to Ellis? It's a temporary military bridge that had a finite lifespan but is now over a decade beyond that lifespan. It requires yearly inspections and has since been replated with steel to reinforce a much deteriorated original deck. More traffic would only further the damage and a replacement would receive opposition from the same people who feel the bridge should be open to the pubic. Walkers and cyclists would still need to be screened. Where will that screening facility be constructed? Where will the cyclists go? Ellis Island is a former immigration museum, it doesn't have fancy bike paths like Grove St.. Where would walkers go on Ellis? If any of the above (sans bicycle) want to go to Ellis, they can purchase a ticket from the ferry company and visit the museum. Your entire theory is convoluted and confusing. I don't think you even know what you want.
Posted on: 2012/5/21 0:21
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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Home away from home
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LSP already has a ferry from the rail terminal to both Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty. So for those people that want the authentic experience of seeing the Statue from the water, that's available from LSP. IMO a more "authentic" view would be from Staten Island, the Verazzano Bridge, or on the NY Waterway service from Sandy Hook. Somehow a boat from Manhattan to the Statue doesn't seem to capture the immigrant experience of seeing it from afar.
Think like a tourist for a minute. If you are getting off one of the Bayonne cruise ships. Or are staying at a Hotel like the Hilton, JC. The absolute best way to get your bearings in a huge city like NYC is to spend a day or 2 on the tour buses. If I'm exploring a big city for the first time, and have 3-7days to explore, I'll take the tour bus for a day or 2, then buy an unlimited daily/weekly travel card and explore the places that catch my interest. The tour buses also spend the travel time giving out local info, and there's a huge wealth of info on the NJ side. Not to mention NJ has probably the absolute best views of Manhattan. On LSC - are you kidding? If you're a tourist with kids, this is an awesome place to spend a day. Light rail to LSP? I guess you don't have kids or elderly parents in-tow. Why can't the bridge between LSP and Ellis be open to walkers and or/cyclists? What's the traffic problem? A large number of the NYC tour buses park in Hoboken overnight. Even if they started out with a few trial loops in NJ early morning and late evening, they might increase their revenues with low outlay. Win-win.
Posted on: 2012/5/20 22:05
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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Quote:
I had a different view of what you meant by tour buses. Look, the bridge was never meant to be a option to allow people to walk over, so you can throw that idea right out the window. Adding that as an entry point to Ellis requires additional staffing and a screening pavilion and traffic control on top of all that so visitors don't get hit by vehicles. And then visitors still need to take a boat to the Statue. If not all tourists want to take a boat to the Statue, they a) don't understand the significance of taking the boat to the Statue, and b) can enjoy seeing the Statue from afar from any of the numerous public transportation accessible viewpoints of the Statue. If I was at the Hilton and probably any of the other hotels, I would just hop on the light rail to LSC, LSP, or Ellis/Statue rather than shelling money for an overpriced bus ride. Or I would go through the city to get to Ellis and the Statue. Sadly, the train terminal as noted in another thread, as historic as it is, really isn't that much of an attraction in its current state. And as much as I enjoy going to LSC, I don't see it as that much a draw for visitors. As I stated in my previous post, we, as residents and members of the public can only make suggestions to these agencies as to what they would like to see at these sites, but if the respective agencies do not feel that it is in the best interest of their park to do whatever is suggested, they don't have to do anything. Their mission statements do not include increasing business and visitation to the surrounding areas. Tourism is already high enough at the Statue (averages #18 out of 368 parks that have listed their visitation for the period 2007-2011), and they would be far pressed to get into the top ten (need to increase visitation by 1.3X to get into the top ten, and by 4.3X to unseed Blue Ridge Parkway as number 1). They wouldn't gain anything. I still don't see how this is a benefit to JC. A lot of tourists already stay in JC rather than NYC to see the NYC sites. And where do they go spend the majority of their money.....NYC. Adding a bus won't help tourism for NJ.
Posted on: 2012/5/20 18:45
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- Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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@JC_DownRegular,
I think you've made a different set of assumptions that wasn't part of my post. NYC tour buses are hop-on, hop-off. A few stops are all that would be needed - say at Liberty Science, the Rail Terminal and near the bridge to Ellis Island. And some stops at local hotels such as the Hilton. Congestion? A few extra buses per hour, most likely off-peak? Security? What more would be needed, over and above what already exists? And yes, LSP, Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty are managed at the State and Federal level, but don't "we" have a voice?
Posted on: 2012/5/20 15:29
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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I am a little confused as to your notion of "we". I assume you mean we as in Jersey City residents? JC neither has control over the administration or regulations within LSP or the Statue and Ellis. The LSP is a unit of NJ DEP's Division of Parks and Forestry - a STATE agency. The Statue and Ellis are administered by the the Dept of Interior's National Park Service - a FEDERAL agency. Jersey City government has no say in what goes on in these sites. The residents can only make suggestions to these agencies as to what they would like to see at these sites, but if the respective agencies do not feel that it is in the best interest of their park, they don't have to do anything. Neither of these agencies have as their mission statement increasing tourism and spending in the surrounding communities. The Statue/Ellis already receives 3.7 million visitors a year. And considering that the NPS does not collect any fees from visitors (the ferry is a concession and the gift stores are concessions), increasing their visitation would not increase their budget. Allowing buses to cross the bridge to Ellis poses several problems - 1) Where would you have them park? There is no space on Ellis to put the tour buses. The lot is already full of contractor, NPS employee, and USPP vehicles. You should suggest parking them on LSP property, but there aren't any nearby lots near that bridge to accommodate buses. 2) I have walked across the bridge and am wary about it when I have done so because it's deteriorating condition. I'm amazed it handles the few vehicles that do cross it and it would probably need major upgrades before the Federal Highway Administration would consider approving it for such increased usage. Those upgrades would require money which the NPS does not have. 3) Where would put the security screening for these buses and all the people that come on these buses? Where would you get the money to cover the costs of additional security to provide the screening? 4) What incentive does JC have this? The NYC buses operate in NYC, don't make any stops in JC, and the visitors don't spend any money in JC. Sounds like it just creates more of a traffic nightmare that already exists in downtown JC. I know the simple solution to charge a fee to the Statue/Ellis, but as that requires an act of Congress (literally), and would incite such outrage from the public and politicians, I don't see that happening. Quote:
The reason there is a ferry that leads to the Statue and Ellis is because, and this may shock you, there is no other way to get to and from both. The NPS uses a concession because it realizes that it is too costly to operate the ferry service itself. The NPS can barely keep up with keeping buildings from falling apart. I can't see it maintaining a fleet of boats. So it is not because the ferry operator has a vested interest it's because the NPS prefers it to be that way. And by the way, it's not like the concession has lifetime right to operate the ferry - concession operations have expiration dates. After that, they have to compete and submit new bids.. Aside from the fact that it adds to the experience of seeing what so many immigrants were able to see from their vantage point.
Posted on: 2012/5/20 12:39
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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This just in...
NJ Transit and the NY Waterway ferry and bus network will launch a new joint pass for riders using the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail and NY Waterway ferries between Port Imperial in Weehawken and Midtown and Lower Manhattan. June monthly joint passes, with the Light Rail, ferry and bus combination, are on sale tomorrow wherever Light Rail tickets are available, and at the ticket vending machines at the Port Imperial Ferry Terminal. New Jersey customers can save an additional $50 per month to ride from any Light Rail station to Port Imperial and transfer to ferries to the Midtown West Ferry Terminal at 39th Street in the Hudson River Park starting Friday, June 1. From that terminal, free buses take commuters on several routes through Midtown Manhattan. Joint 10-trip tickets also are available at a reduced price. Commuters can also ride the ferry from Port Imperial to the World Financial Center on the Hudson River in Lower Manhattan or to Wall Street's Pier 11 on the East River. For schedules, prices and additional information call 1-800-533-3779, or visit http://www.nywaterway.com or www.facebook.com/nywaterway. For NJ Transit bus and Light Rail information, visit njtransit.com. its a start...
Posted on: 2012/5/18 21:32
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Re: Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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Minor point. but there is no bridge to the Statue of Liberty. I think you are thinking of the bridge to Ellis Island in LSP.
It was built for the restoration project so trucks could access the island, but it is closed to the public because NYC and the ferry operator have a vested interest in in staying closed to the public.
Posted on: 2012/5/18 12:48
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Promoting tourism in NJ: NYC Bus Tours, Statue of Liberty, Verrazano Bridge and Metrocards
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Not all tourists want to take a boat to the Statue of Liberty.
Some of the best views of Manhattan are from Hoboken, JC, Bayonne, Staten Island, the Verrazano Bridge and Brooklyn. A lot of the NYC tour buses are parked overnight in Hoboken parking lots. Why can't we open LSP/Statue of Liberty to NYC tour buses? And open the bridge from LSP to the statue? Why can't we let NYC tour buses come through the Hoboken/JC/Bayonne/Staten Island/Brooklyn loop? The NY MTA plans to phase out Metrocards. Currently, PATH doesn't honor unlimited Metrocards, only pre-paid Metrocards. NJ Transit doesn't honor ANY Metrocards on light rails and buses. For a NYC tourist that means they can't get to NJ/JC on a 7-day Metrocard pass, can't use the PATH nor NJT Light Rail. Can't get to LSP. Couldn't get to the Statue of Liberty, even if it was open between LSP and the Statue. The NY/MTA, Port Authority and NJ Transit are collectively killing NJ tourism. Shouldn't we be pushing back?
Posted on: 2012/5/18 10:50
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