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Re: What is the mission of a Historic District? (moved from What's this letter from Warren G. Curtin
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No. I would like to see it replaced with either a) a historically accurate reproduction, or b) a modern fence that is in good repair, and distinguishes itself from the original. What is not acceptable is to replace it with something that is "sort of" like what "could have" been there. Except, of course, that it wasn't. Joshua Parkhurst President Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy
Posted on: 2005/12/15 19:52
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Re: What is the mission of a Historic District? (moved from What's this letter from Warren G. Curtin
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Interesting points ECH, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any resident today on the side of really eliminating the districts. Just look at some the of the crappy infill like the setback white brickface stuff on 7th between Monmouth & Coles.
Could you clarify what block you mean by the following passage, are you referring to actual infill or restoration or what could happen if...? Quote:
Posted on: 2005/12/15 18:51
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Re: What is the mission of a Historic District? (moved from What's this letter from Warren G. Curtin
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While it certainly can't hurt to chat about this subject, and eventually, perhaps, to come to some sort of mutually satifying resolution/solution to the contretemps, it may also be useful to recall that: at the time, years and years ago, that historic districting first alighted in Jersey City-- downtown neighborhoods, if I remember correctly (and I think I do) were not so crazy about hitching onto the bandwagon. The various neighborhood associations opted to join up and get certified, but it was clearly remarked at the time in certain of the neighborhoods by the folks who owned property there, that the neighbohood associations did not speak for all of the people or even a majority of the people. I was involved closely with the movement to get Harsimus Cove designated, and I recall very clearly that the vast majority of people whom I talked with here, back then, were absolutely Not Interested in getting the designation. No way, Jose. The same is true for friends of mine in Hamilton Park, who at the time that that area was proposed for designation, were strongly vocal in opposition. These were folks who owned prominently located and distinctive buildings with high visibility, not shacks in someone's backyard. It is a misreading of the history to believe nowadays that the designation of these historic districts was a snap and a one-two-three done deal. More people were Against it than were For it, except that we pro-districting guys screamed louder and eventually carried the day. Based on the scuttlebut on the sidewalks, I think that today, many people find the historic districting designations, at best, a very mixed blessing. Many people contend that the commissioners are not qualified to hold office. Many people believe that the historic district officer would be better off working somewhere else, that his "style" and taste have very little to do with vintage Jersey City. Viz:suddenly we are inundated with darling little wooden reproductions of Cape Cod saltboxes in sweet pastel colors. Makes the neighbors wonder what in the world is going on. Is this Oz? You cannot discount public opinion. A lot of time has passed since the early eighties, and there has been alot of water gone, mercifully, under the bridge, but the subject of JC historic districts remains as much a talking point as ever before.
Posted on: 2005/12/15 18:38
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Re: What is the mission of a Historic District? (moved from What's this letter from Warren G. Curtin
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Dan, You answered my question in your 2nd paragraph. No one was suggesting gutting or eliminating the Historic guidelines, but that hearsay is what has taken hold and colored the whole discussion. I suspect the residents of the other districts still haven't heard the ACTUAL proposals, rather than "they want to eliminate the historic districts".
The folks who have done the homework say historic districts around the nation function more along the lines of what they propose, rather than the strict orthodoxy of the current guidelines. It seem those districts recognize that historic cohesion is as important as absolute authenticity. It appears the only choices you would allow for St Francis is a modern tower or a slavish reproduction of the original hospital building. How is either the best thing for our neighborhood? JPhurst: Is that rusty chain link fence one of the "existing features" you value and wish to preserve as an artifact of the property's history? Quote:
Posted on: 2005/12/15 17:56
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Re: What is the mission of a Historic District? (moved from What's this letter from Warren G. Curtin
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Although Mr. Curtin and HPNA proposed a lot of "revisions" to the historic district ordinance, the question of replacing actual features with "period" replicas seems to be generating the most controversy.
What is the purpose of a historic district? It has the same purpose as preserving an individual historic landmark. Landmarks and districts serve to educate, and increase property value, to demonstrate the staying power of the buildings' previous features and architecture. If an individual landmark is protected, no one would seriously say that "historic preservation" of that landmark would be to replace the building's actual features with "period" features that may have been on some other buildings, but not the landmark itself. So the fact that a certain type of feature may have been available in other buildings should not give carte blanche to add such features to another building that never had them in the first place. Dan L. is 100% correct. The proposed change would have replaced historic preservation with a "neighborhood theme park." It is misleading and the antithesis of what historic preservation is supposed to be about. One could not say "this is what the neighborhood once was," because quite simply, it wasn't. Finally, it is worth noting that the proponents of keeping (or strengthening) the current ordinance are in the same boat as everyone else. All of the other (democratically elected) neighborhood association heads live in historic districts and are bound by the current guidelines. At least 2 of the 3 HPC members who opposed the changes also live in historic districts. I'm not sure if Ron Russell does, although he is one of the best architects involved in historic preservation in Jersey City, if not the country. Joshua Parkhurst President Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy
Posted on: 2005/12/15 13:41
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Re: What is the mission of a Historic District? (moved from What's this letter from Warren G. Curtin?)
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Surely, it is possible to gain a greater understanding and appreciation of an idea, object, theory, artifact, artwork, country, people.... after learning more about it/them etc.
Whether one knew in advance or not that they were buying property in a historic district, would it not be sensible to learn more about the district, the ordinance and historic preservation in general before attacking it/trying to gut it or eliminated as was suggested by many Hamiton Park property owners last year. Why "a large representative slice of Hamilton Park Historic District can be so at odds with what we're told residents of the other districts believe." -- Good question. Quote:
Posted on: 2005/12/15 3:00
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Re: What is the mission of a Historic District? (moved from What's this letter from Warren G. Curtin?)
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This article is in today's Sag Harbor Express..... it shows historic district flexibility.
We were told that after we power washed the paint from our brick building that we could not re-paint it or a stop work order would be issued. Yet, how many homes in the area are painted? We were also not allowed to pick the color for the metal cornice. It was going to be picked for us! I know the commission has lightened up somewhat in regards to paint choices, but will it last? --------------------------------------------------------- THE SAG HARBOR EXPRESS ISSUE DATE: 12/08/05 December 2005 St. Andrews Gets Million Dollar Makeover by Beth Young In the 130 years that St. Andrew's R.C. Church has stood on Division Street in Sag Harbor, it has withstood hurricanes, winter storms and a slew of paint jobs, but it has never undergone a major renovation - until now. In the past year, the church managed to raise $1.2 million in pledges from parishioners (not all of which have yet been received), to repair serious water damage within the church, repair its steeple, repair the roof on the rectory and finish a slew of grounds improvements. The project, designed by Fred Stelle Architects, broke ground in mid-September and it is expected to be completed by Christmas. Glen Rozzi is a member of the congregation at the church, and when the construction project began, the archdiocese of Rockville Centre hired him to oversee the project in the role of an OSR, or onsite representative working for the church. Rozzi had originally planned to do the work himself, but when the scope of the project increased to its current level, he agreed to work as an intermediary between the church and Westhampton-based Lettieri Construction. "They were an absolute pleasure to work with," said Rozzi, adding that the firm poured manpower into the project in a mad dash to complete it before Christmas. The church was built in 1872, with the help of newly-arrived Reverend John J. Hefferman, who, with the assistance of the people of Sag Harbor, raised $600 to build a new church to replace one that had stood at the corner of Glover Street and Long Island Avenue. The only renovation since that time was the addition of two wings in 1892. "It took a lot more work than was anticipated," said Fred Stelle of the project this week. "There was water damage to the exterior walls in the sanctuary. We knew there were problems in the rectory, but it was covered with asbestos shingles that covered up the problems." Rozzi said that the four corners of the church where rain gutters had flowed down the side of the building were damaged by rain water enough to require reframing that hadn't been planned for in the original project. In the process, six windows throughout the sanctuary had to be removed and then replaced. The original church was quite colorful, with a classic 19th Century Victorian paint job. Early in the process of designing the renovation, Stelle had pitched one version of the design that included such Victorian paint schemes, but the parish members decided to keep the church white. After the original doors on the church were stripped down to reveal a light tan natural wood, the church decided to mirror that color in much of the trim of the building. The new look is subtle, but it's apparent to passersby, who can see the church's lines much more clearly now. "It's like putting a picture in a frame," said Stelle. The newly discovered detail in the trim that had long been hidden under coats and coats of paint will likely be one of the most lasting beautiful flourishes of the project, particularly the wainscoting and raised paneling surrounding the rectory door, which, for the first time in a century, has finally seen the light of day. The church was unable to use the clay shingles it had hoped to put on the steeple because they were too heavy, but has opted instead for a durable urethane paint. The interior of the church will also be seeing replastered and repainted walls within the next two weeks. Until that time, weekly services are being held in the parish hall, but the Sunday services, and the Christmas service, will be back in the sanctuary. "Believe it or not, we'll be done by Christmas," said Rozzi.
Posted on: 2005/12/11 4:06
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What is the mission of a Historic District? (moved from What's this letter from Warren G. Curtin?)
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This thread was created as DanL requested a new thread topic closer to the discussion.
Dan, I'm sorry, but it's pretty condescending to think that all these people "just don't get it" because they're ignorant. We understand the aesthetic concept of clearly delineating the original and reproduction from the imitation, we just don't agree with it's application in the neighborhoods. As I said, we believe a distinctly modern fence is more detrimental to the Historic nature of that lovely block on Jersey than a period fence of a different design. And had a replacement "victorian" style fence been installed 50 years ago (clearly visible elsewhere in the district), we would not be discussing removing it. You apparently believe the glass and metal tower with terraces originally presented by the Silvermans, which ( as explained by it's architect) was explicitly designed to ""fit" in or be compatiable with historic areas and fabric - proportion, bulk, density, volume, materials, carrying through horizontal and vertical lines" would be better than the latest design (which is fully documented at the 25mc.org/ site you linked). There were few in agreement with that position at a meeting with at least 60 residents there. One wonders how a large representative slice of Hamilton Park Historic District can be so at odds with what we're told residents of the other districts believe. Quote:
Posted on: 2005/12/10 18:10
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