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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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The issue with that neighborhood in particular is the lack of modern mixed use zoning. That neighborhood could have been special. Instead, it's got almost no real amenities, and barely anything to do.

A properly redeveloped Square or Ocean Avenue will be loads more attractive.

The issue with PH is the idiotic single use zoning,. and the extremely boring architecture.

Posted on: 2014/6/27 0:05
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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You can't really engineer communities. You can support, improve and strengthen existing ones. I wouldn't waste time and effort on building a lot of low income housing downtown and hope somehow they add to the "ambiance". Better off spending the money redeveloping the likes of Ocean, Montgomery and Holland Gardens to raise the security, safety and standards of living for the communities already there.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 23:43
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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Noting that your neighborhood is banal and dull is not bigotry, it's an opinion on the boring buildings, design, layout and amenities.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 23:30
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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papadage wrote:
You can whine all you like. It's pathetic and transparent. People living in tax abated construction whining about providing benefits to people aside form themselves. And that's aside from being self absorbed exclusionists.

Aside from that, if you don't understand the fundamental concepts that separate discrimination from bigotry from racism, don't bother arguing it. Dictionary definition wars are uninteresting and the mark of a feeble argument and mind.


No whining here. Just because you say I'm whining doesn't make it true.

I'm just merely highlighting your hypocrisy. You have railed against bigotry, and yet, you have demonstrated bigotry against those who live in Paulus Hook. Contradictory, indeed.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 23:01
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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papadage wrote:
Most people who do that are not residents of the area they do it in. Carjackers and robbers tend to TRAVEL to their victims. Less witnesses who know them and less time near the crime scene.

As for a lot of the rest.. can't be helped outside of gated communities that require driving to get to. And are even duller to live in.


The thugs can't hijack Range Rovers in the hood, so they go to the Mall at Short Hills-because only the drug dealers in the hood have them, and they're packing-not a wise target.

And NJ really doesn't have many gated communities anyway, though there are exceptions like Port Liberte. As far as whether they are dull, hey, don't buy there (even if you could afford it). Isn't that freedom and free markets at work? I'm sure the owners won't lose any sleep if you feel they are dull by your standards. Keep in mind that those people travel around the world, are patrons of the arts, give more money to charity and volunteer groups, are religious-they tend to lead full lives even if they aren't living in an 'edgy' neighborhood.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 18:33
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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I didn't say that, did I? Besides, why would middle income residents increase any of those crimes?


Mostly because they commit crimes at a greater rate than wealthier people.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 18:21
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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I didn't say that, did I? Besides, why would middle income residents increase any of those crimes?

Posted on: 2014/6/26 18:20
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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papadage wrote:
Most people who do that are not residents of the area they do it in. Carjackers and robbers tend to TRAVEL to their victims. Less witnesses who know them and less time near the crime scene.

As for a lot of the rest.. can't be helped outside of gated communities that require driving to get to. And are even duller to live in.


So then crimes happen more often in DTJC than say, Greenville? And certainly less often in Newark than say, the surrounding suburbs? Also, I for one would hate to have to live in a gated community just to avoid a liberal government created problem.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 18:19
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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Most people who do that are not residents of the area they do it in. Carjackers and robbers tend to TRAVEL to their victims. Less witnesses who know them and less time near the crime scene.

As for a lot of the rest.. can't be helped outside of gated communities that require driving to get to. And are even duller to live in.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 18:12
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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user1111 wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
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user1111 wrote:
Sorry hater, $$$$$ does not make you better, your behavior does.


Good behavior leads to $$$$$s, therefore, if you want to be surrounded by people who behave well, living in a good neighborhood surrounded by people with $$$$$s is a pretty good way to go.


I am guessing you live in a bubble and never heard of Brooke Astor, Dennis Kozlowski, Leona Helmsley, Bernie Madoff? These are all folks with $$$$$$ but complete assholes.


I would rather deal with white collar criminals than the regular kind that will stick a knife or gun in my face.


Good for you, Domestic Violence Among the Wealthy Hides Behind ?Veil of Silence? just so you know. Enjoy that glass house.


Husbands and their wives fighting is really at the bottom of my list of concerns in any neighborhood I live in because it will never involve me or end up harming me. Now, the armed robbery, home invasions or people getting killed while getting carjacked, well, that concerns me. People stealing packages, homeless people invading hallways, fighting in the streets, random sucker punches, all of that concerns me. Single mothers with 5 kids in an apartment concerns me. Mary leaving Ben down the block after he hit her after she cheated on him doesn't concern me.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 18:02
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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papadage wrote:
Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
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papadage wrote:
People born to $$$$ have a tendency to being just shitty, if not worse. Also, sociopaths tend to make $$$$ as well.

There is no real link between money and character.


Then please stay in your crappy ghetto with its awesome people and feel free to stay away from my wealthy area occupied by mediocre residents no better than your folks, who have zero reason to come and live here. :)

Based on the foregoing, I think we can all agree that you are retracting your positions stating that it is really important to ensure that we put poor folks into rich neighborhoods as the latter doesn't have better people anyway.

Personally, I'll strongly disagree and rely on statistics to back up my position.


For a guy who don't care, why u mad, bra?

THAT's trolling.. just so u know.


Really? Because that was actually your best point in this entire thread.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 17:56
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Sorry hater, $$$$$ does not make you better, your behavior does.


Good behavior leads to $$$$$s, therefore, if you want to be surrounded by people who behave well, living in a good neighborhood surrounded by people with $$$$$s is a pretty good way to go.


I am guessing you live in a bubble and never heard of Brooke Astor, Dennis Kozlowski, Leona Helmsley, Bernie Madoff? These are all folks with $$$$$$ but complete assholes.


I would rather deal with white collar criminals than the regular kind that will stick a knife or gun in my face.


Good for you, Domestic Violence Among the Wealthy Hides Behind ?Veil of Silence? just so you know. Enjoy that glass house.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 17:55
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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user1111 wrote:
Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Sorry hater, $$$$$ does not make you better, your behavior does.


Good behavior leads to $$$$$s, therefore, if you want to be surrounded by people who behave well, living in a good neighborhood surrounded by people with $$$$$s is a pretty good way to go.


I am guessing you live in a bubble and never heard of Brooke Astor, Dennis Kozlowski, Leona Helmsley, Bernie Madoff? These are all folks with $$$$$$ but complete assholes.


I would rather deal with white collar criminals than the regular kind that will stick a knife or gun in my face. In any event, these figures are exceedingly rare in any good neighborhood as opposed to regular criminals or others that simply have terrible habits consistent with a poor upbringing (I've listed a bunch earlier).

Posted on: 2014/6/26 17:39
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:

papadage wrote:
People born to $$$$ have a tendency to being just shitty, if not worse. Also, sociopaths tend to make $$$$ as well.

There is no real link between money and character.


Then please stay in your crappy ghetto with its awesome people and feel free to stay away from my wealthy area occupied by mediocre residents no better than your folks, who have zero reason to come and live here. :)

Based on the foregoing, I think we can all agree that you are retracting your positions stating that it is really important to ensure that we put poor folks into rich neighborhoods as the latter doesn't have better people anyway.

Personally, I'll strongly disagree and rely on statistics to back up my position.


For a guy who don't care, why u mad, bra?

THAT's trolling.. just so u know.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 17:39
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Sorry hater, $$$$$ does not make you better, your behavior does.


Good behavior leads to $$$$$s, therefore, if you want to be surrounded by people who behave well, living in a good neighborhood surrounded by people with $$$$$s is a pretty good way to go.


I am guessing you live in a bubble and never heard of Brooke Astor, Dennis Kozlowski, Leona Helmsley, Bernie Madoff? These are all folks with $$$$$$ but complete assholes.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 17:37
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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papadage wrote:
People born to $$$$ have a tendency to being just shitty, if not worse. Also, sociopaths tend to make $$$$ as well.

There is no real link between money and character.


Then please stay in your crappy ghetto with its awesome people and feel free to stay away from my wealthy area occupied by mediocre residents no better than your folks, who have zero reason to come and live here. :)

Based on the foregoing, I think we can all agree that you are retracting your positions stating that it is really important to ensure that we put poor folks into rich neighborhoods as the latter doesn't have better people anyway.

Personally, I'll strongly disagree and rely on statistics to back up my position.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 17:34
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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People born to $$$$ have a tendency to being just shitty, if not worse. Also, sociopaths tend to make $$$$ as well.

There is no real link between money and character.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 17:26
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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user1111 wrote:
Sorry hater, $$$$$ does not make you better, your behavior does.


Good behavior leads to $$$$$s, therefore, if you want to be surrounded by people who behave well, living in a good neighborhood surrounded by people with $$$$$s is a pretty good way to go.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 17:24
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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Sorry hater, $$$$$ does not make you better, your behavior does.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 17:16
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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papadage wrote:
They are still not a net tax benefit as you claim, so your argument is false.


I'm giving you the argument for them. To the extent it doesn't satisfy the goal, that is an argument to abolish them.

Quote:

Aside from that, get it through your head. You income does not make you "better". There are plenty of shitty, self-involved, criminal and anti-social people making high incomes. And in pretty much the same proportion as the lower income levels. Plenty of middle income and poor people dress fine, groom themselves, behave well and take care of their living space.


No, you're wrong. Higher income means people are better. It certainly makes their neighborhoods better. It is correlated to better educations, better habits, just plain better. That's why YOU want to live in one of these neighborhoods instead of one of the crappy ones.

Quote:

Poor habits come more from segregation and not having a stake in a community. There are plenty of shitty upper income transient tenants as well.


That's just false. Not saying there are never crappy rich people, but the proportions are totally different.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 17:08
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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They are still not a net tax benefit as you claim, so your argument is false.

Aside from that, get it through your head. You income does not make you "better". There are plenty of shitty, self-involved, criminal and anti-social people making high incomes. And in pretty much the same proportion as the lower income levels. Plenty of middle income and poor people dress fine, groom themselves, behave well and take care of their living space.

Poor habits come more from segregation and not having a stake in a community. There are plenty of shitty upper income transient tenants as well.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 16:27
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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Hating bigots is cultural bigotry.


LOL

Assuming that the vast majority of people making less than you, or I do, right..


Incomprehensible. Try again.

Quote:

So the vast majority of the actual middle class is crappy, unclean, loud, etc.

Riiiight.


They are better than those below them and worse than those above them. Like I said, if that wasn't the case then you wouldn't whine about them not living in a better neighborhood.

Quote:
To your second point: increase tax revenue = for the good of everyone in the city. It doesn't mean anyone gets to live there.


Not if they are in abated property, or work in NY so their taxes get paid there first. [/quote]

The working in NY is a totally separate issue and not one that can be easily resolved at all. But like I said earlier, I'm not really in favor of tax abatements and I'm not sure we come out ahead. That said, these people probably pay quite a bit in sales tax and use next to nothing of public funds.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 16:13
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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Hating bigots is cultural bigotry.


LOL

Assuming that the vast majority of people making less than you, or I do, right..

So the vast majority of the actual middle class is crappy, unclean, loud, etc.

Riiiight.

Quote:
To your second point: increase tax revenue = for the good of everyone in the city. It doesn't mean anyone gets to live there.


Not if they are in abated property, or work in NY so their taxes get paid there first.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 16:03
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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Assuming middle income or even lower income means bad behavior is actual bigotry. It also allows plausible deniability fro racism.

As for the abatements, they were given so that the area would develop for the good of the entire city, not the lucky few who live there and then want to keep everyone out.


Just between us ladies here, we're anonymous. You don't know who I am and I don't know who you are. If I hated minority groups I'd just say so. Why wouldn't I? But I don't because that's lazy thinking. I am a cultural bigot and elitist, but being a part of the upper percentiles isn't limited to any race. Equating it to race, as you are doing, is racist. Pretty much everyone is a cultural bigot including you, by the way. Hating bigots is cultural bigotry.

So substantively, neighborhoods with more "middle income or even lower income" residents are crappier. They have more crime. People take worse care of their property. The residents behave worse, including drug use, loudness and rudeness, fighting each other and random people, having kids irresponsibly, not taking care of those kids, who perpetuate the cycle of crap. Simply put, I don't want these people in my neighborhood unless they have a source of income that enables them to afford it. Guess what? Most people are like this and the #1 reason people move to suburbia is to move further away from that crowd. I'm not interested in doing that and really I don't see why I should have to. The other interesting thing is that YOU KNOW THIS and so does everyone else. That's why people from those crappy neighborhood want to go live in mine. If they were all the same then there wouldn't be any whining from the likes of you. But they're not so you do.

To your second point: increase tax revenue = for the good of everyone in the city. It doesn't mean anyone gets to live there.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 15:47
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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Assuming middle income or even lower income means bad behavior is actual bigotry. It also allows plausible deniability fro racism.

As for the abatements, they were given so that the area would develop for the good of the entire city, not the lucky few who live there and then want to keep everyone out.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 15:39
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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papadage wrote:
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user1111 wrote:
Resized Image
Pretty much..


The ironic racism here is that you are happily equating poor, uneducated and race. Walk around expensive parts of JC, Manhattan, walk into investment banks and top law firms and you will see the very minority groups you are imagining. So I'm not the one being racist here. I have zero desire to import poor whites either.


What is also ironic is papadage said that dictionary definition wars are "the mark of a feeble argument and mind" yet his whole "argument" consists of hiding behind the b word, and had refused to address your substantive points head on.

Tax abatements aren't the best but these areas would remain shitholes without them, and the subsequent new development. It is not welfare when you contribute to the community more than you take. So I don't see justification for the huge leap that tax abatement = everyone is entitled to live wherever they choose.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 15:32
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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user1111 wrote:
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Pretty much..


The ironic racism here is that you are happily equating poor, uneducated and race. Walk around expensive parts of JC, Manhattan, walk into investment banks and top law firms and you will see the very minority groups you are imagining. So I'm not the one being racist here. I have zero desire to import poor whites either.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 15:26
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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Pretty much..

Posted on: 2014/6/26 15:19
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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Because the area was developed with a shit ton of public money in the form of tax abatements and publicly built infrastructure. Welfare by any other name...


I'm not a fan of tax abatements either. But the theory of tax abatements is that they result in a net positive of tax revenue, whereas poor people just suck up public money. Because we unfortunately can't banish them from our city, we have to encourage good people who actually add more than they take to move in. That said, tax abatements smack of corruption and basically force other people to make up the difference since the new construction also results in new public services usage. None of that in any way justifies moving poor people to areas they don't belong in because they can't afford to live there.

Posted on: 2014/6/26 15:19
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Re: As American Cities Grow, New Urbanism Must Be Inclusive
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Posted on: 2014/6/26 15:11
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