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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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IMO alot of things need to be done/more changes.

Hell, on my block if you ask a 9 year old, they'll point out a narco car in a second. They all look the same and are sooo obvious clean cut with baseball caps driving the same cars.

If you only have 100 officers at any given time due to vacations etc. does that mean there are less narco's?

Are there any statistics on ALL (city wide) current youth services out there? As a JERSEY CITY TAX PAYER I would like to know the amount of money being spent and the effectiveness of such.

With a growing population yes, the city will need MORE services they need to hire MORE people instead of implementing a hiring freeze. Take the different dept. heads who are making the BIG BUCKS and offer them a BUYOUT or to retire, hire NEW people, or put in place/promote NEW people with less money.

Is there a list of ALL city workers and the salaries? This should be public information on the city web site along with the yrs. of service.

Is there a list of public employees and the family members who also have city jobs? Which IMO is a conflict of interest.

Also, like Hoboken and NY, only Jersey City residents should have Jersey City jobs.

Posted on: 2009/7/26 13:50
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Besides putting more cops ON the street, our city needs more programs to keep kids OFF the streets. Recreational sport leagues aren't enough.

In the last ten years our city has changed, I think for the better. But, how much has that shift affected the troubled areas of our city?

We need to start thinking more long term about crime in our city. Developing new programs to help generate positive opportunities for kids.

More cops are needed, but within reason. And personally, I don't want to see cops patrolling with A4s. But every squad car should at least carry a shot gun and maybe a few flashbangs.

Posted on: 2009/7/26 1:25
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Quote:

greenville wrote:
You know what would be reall nice? Having the NJ state police stop being road nannies and help out inner city police deparments. NJ state troopers get more training than our police force only to be put on the road to give out tickets! It would be great to have troopers patroling our city looking for muderers and robbers instead of giving out tickets.


I think that there are many city's and towns that would wish for that, but the cops themselfs would bark a few choice words at even the thought of that. Both troopers and city police.

Posted on: 2009/7/25 17:51
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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You know what would be reall nice? Having the NJ state police stop being road nannies and help out inner city police deparments. NJ state troopers get more training than our police force only to be put on the road to give out tickets! It would be great to have troopers patroling our city looking for muderers and robbers instead of giving out tickets.

Posted on: 2009/7/25 17:26
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Regulator, I don't know what the tactical entry SOP is for JCPD ESU and won't play armchair quarterback as to what I think was done or should have been done (not saying you are either). However, just in the general scheme of things, considering what most law enforcement is up against these days, especially armored, high, or both suspects, their tactical weapon of choice is inadequate. I do agree though that the several variations of the M4 that do exist could be adequate, but not necessarily for CQB, with the exception of the CAR-15.

Posted on: 2009/7/24 23:53
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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the weapons that the police were supplied were sufficient for the task. didnt the reports say the gunfire exchange happened when they were opening the door? remote detonation devices / explosives should be made available to ESU / SWAT teams to break down doors, in addition to tear gas or other noxious chemicals to disorient the perp. if they can use tear gas on protestors, why not on a perp that's holed up in a room?

Posted on: 2009/7/24 14:25
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Bottom line is The MP5/9mm is under powered. the other calibre mp5 obviously have much more stopping power.

many police forces around the world are starting to use the HK MP-7. Due to the increase in incidents wher the perps have body armor, HK believes police forces need the penetration of a rifle in a submachine gun platform.

Many argue that this small rifle round, may be able to penetrate body armor but doesnt have the stopping power of a .40 or ,45 cal. pundits will also argue it fills a void that can easily be filled by variations of the M4 for example.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg49-e.htm

Posted on: 2009/7/24 14:00
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Pwens wrote:



The H&K MP5 SMGs used by ESU deliver 9mm FMJ ammunition at a fully-automatic rate of 800 rounds per minute holding 30 rounds per magazine - moreover, the operator can empty the clip in less than 2.5 seconds with a single press of the finger.

Bottom line is that JCPD is hardly "under equipped" compared to street weapons - it's unfortunate that the officer succumbed to his injuries but the results could have been much worse if the suspect had NOT used a shotgun.


The MP5 used by most tactical units of PD's nationwide is the 9mm. In CQB, although accuracy is not that important, The MP5/9mm is not that accurate and does not provide that much stopping power. HK's UMP40/45 or the MP5/40 are much better tactical weapons - more accuracy and more stopping power.

This goes back to the good ole 9mm vs .45 argument among gun enthusiasts.

Anyhow, I believe HK was in the process of developing a new CQB weapon.

Posted on: 2009/7/24 13:52
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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JRL wrote:
...
In addition they fighting criminals with shot guns ect...Our finest need to be better equipped. Then there is technology out there we have yet to adopt to fight crime.
...


You're implying that shotguns are an advanced god-like technology, which is absolutely not true, especially in the face of H&K MP5 submachine guns - the weapons used by the ESUs that responded to last week's incident.

The Mossberg shotgun used by the suspect was a pump-action single loader - that's a slow, non-cyclical, manual cocking mechanism, and holds a maximum of 7 shells at a time. Hits from this weapon using standard buckshot ammunition at even a moderate range in any area other than certain parts of the head are seldom fatal.

The H&K MP5 SMGs used by ESU deliver 9mm FMJ ammunition at a fully-automatic rate of 800 rounds per minute holding 30 rounds per magazine - moreover, the operator can empty the clip in less than 2.5 seconds with a single press of the finger.

Bottom line is that JCPD is hardly "under equipped" compared to street weapons - it's unfortunate that the officer succumbed to his injuries but the results could have been much worse if the suspect had NOT used a shotgun.



Uh, dude- Muzzle velocity of a 9mm (HK) is 1000-1400- probably in the upper reaches of that range out of a subgun- longer barrel & typically hotter ammo is used.

Muzzle velocity of a 12g is 1200-1400, and there are 8-9 of em rather than one.

I agree that the Mossberg 500 Series is hardly an "assault weapon", but seriously, getting hit "at moderate range anywhere other than certain parts of the head".... are you kidding me? Have you ever FIRED a 12 g with buckshot? What do you think a .33 caliber lead ball moving at 1100+ fps does when it hits something?

I am editing out some of my post re: damage because, well. Who knows who is reading.


Mossberg 500's come in an unbelievable number of configurations. This one reportedly was 7+1, not 6+1 as you suggest. Small detail.

This was not a pop gun, that is for sure. I'd beg to be shot by your HK rather than the shotgun, at ANY range.

Posted on: 2009/7/23 21:28
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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teacher wrote:
Mouth-Breader-says..
Beef up police in the Van Vorst area, and the lack of police in the projects in order to do this is OK, because hey, that's not your neighborhood, right? Screw the innocent people living over there, they don't need the protection. Let the criminals burn everything to the ground!

I am sure you are as disturbing as your Photo.
VV is entitled to the same amount of protection, as we pay more in property taxes and it is not our 10 children causing the issues. neglect here, and the shit will role down Hill.
Have you Seen a firetruck recently? they can hold all the contents of your hell hole and more. They can as easily respond from a nearby location, as no one knows where the fire will be anyway.
What is being done in the Hood doesn't work, new ideas are needed.
And 1/5th on vacation is a shame...


And those officers will do what?? arrest people for letting their dog go tinkle on the no-no lawn? I really hope ur not a teacher

Posted on: 2009/7/23 21:25
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Mouth-Breader-says..
Beef up police in the Van Vorst area, and the lack of police in the projects in order to do this is OK, because hey, that's not your neighborhood, right? Screw the innocent people living over there, they don't need the protection. Let the criminals burn everything to the ground!

I am sure you are as disturbing as your Photo.
VV is entitled to the same amount of protection, as we pay more in property taxes and it is not our 10 children causing the issues. neglect here, and the shit will role down Hill.
Have you Seen a firetruck recently? they can hold all the contents of your hell hole and more. They can as easily respond from a nearby location, as no one knows where the fire will be anyway.
What is being done in the Hood doesn't work, new ideas are needed.
And 1/5th on vacation is a shame...

Posted on: 2009/7/23 21:19
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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JRL wrote:
...
In addition they fighting criminals with shot guns ect...Our finest need to be better equipped. Then there is technology out there we have yet to adopt to fight crime.
...


You're implying that shotguns are an advanced god-like technology, which is absolutely not true, especially in the face of H&K MP5 submachine guns - the weapons used by the ESUs that responded to last week's incident.

The Mossberg shotgun used by the suspect was a pump-action single loader - that's a slow, non-cyclical, manual cocking mechanism, and holds a maximum of 7 shells at a time. Hits from this weapon using standard buckshot ammunition at even a moderate range in any area other than certain parts of the head are seldom fatal.

The H&K MP5 SMGs used by ESU deliver 9mm FMJ ammunition at a fully-automatic rate of 800 rounds per minute holding 30 rounds per magazine - moreover, the operator can empty the clip in less than 2.5 seconds with a single press of the finger.

Bottom line is that JCPD is hardly "under equipped" compared to street weapons - it's unfortunate that the officer succumbed to his injuries but the results could have been much worse if the suspect had NOT used a shotgun.

Posted on: 2009/7/23 20:25
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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JRL wrote:
Thanks..I was just going with top line numbers...appreciate that you drilled it down further....it just goes to prove how undersized of a police force we have.

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trambone wrote:
Quote:

JRL wrote:
Let's do the math... Population 240,000 ..Police Force 900..now divide 3, 8 hours shifts in 24hrs, now we have 300 Police officers and that is before those on sick leave, personal leave and vacation.


sigh. wrong wrong wrong. 900 man police force. To my knowledge around 2/3 are brass and detectives. That means they ride a desk most of the day. So you really only have 100 per 8 hour shift. Though then there are those on vacation sick leave, pulling doubles and not operating at full functional capacity.

So about 100 per shift, if that. You also have non brass who probably just are at desk duty. We need more cops on the street, on foot and not in wheeled vehicles.


The top heaviness of the PD & FD just show how their "job" isn't public safety, it's getting more and more cash from the city now and in retirement. An interesting clause in the PD contract has 1/5 of the force on vacation at any given moment all summer, the time we need the MOST police presence. GO PBA!

Posted on: 2009/7/23 17:40
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Thanks..I was just going with top line numbers...appreciate that you drilled it down further....it just goes to prove how undersized of a police force we have.

Quote:

trambone wrote:
Quote:

JRL wrote:
Let's do the math... Population 240,000 ..Police Force 900..now divide 3, 8 hours shifts in 24hrs, now we have 300 Police officers and that is before those on sick leave, personal leave and vacation.


sigh. wrong wrong wrong. 900 man police force. To my knowledge around 2/3 are brass and detectives. That means they ride a desk most of the day. So you really only have 100 per 8 hour shift. Though then there are those on vacation sick leave, pulling doubles and not operating at full functional capacity.

So about 100 per shift, if that. You also have non brass who probably just are at desk duty. We need more cops on the street, on foot and not in wheeled vehicles.

Posted on: 2009/7/23 13:51
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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JRL wrote:
Let's do the math... Population 240,000 ..Police Force 900..now divide 3, 8 hours shifts in 24hrs, now we have 300 Police officers and that is before those on sick leave, personal leave and vacation.


sigh. wrong wrong wrong. 900 man police force. To my knowledge around 2/3 are brass and detectives. That means they ride a desk most of the day. So you really only have 100 per 8 hour shift. Though then there are those on vacation sick leave, pulling doubles and not operating at full functional capacity.

So about 100 per shift, if that. You also have non brass who problaly just are at desk duty. We need more cops on the street, on foot and not in wheeled vechiles.

Posted on: 2009/7/23 13:38
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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My point was not about the abatement dollars, it was about where our Mayor and his Administration's priorities are and it is not ensuring citizen safety, but they sure in hell ensure the developers what they want.

Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Quote:

JRL wrote:
If a developer was looking for an abatement they have a city council meeting and vote to give it, my point being, the Healy Administration can't do enough to give developers abatement's and don't do enough to protect the citizens of Jersey City.


If you want to do the math, you should first try calculating how much the city budget collects from a non-abated property vs. the abatement. The city in nearly every case collects more money with an abated property; the county and school districts-- neither budget funds the JCPD-- are shafted by abatements, not the city.

Posted on: 2009/7/23 13:36
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Jkind and others.. terrific post/thread. According to the stats we are where we should be. Citizens should just be respect each other and the law. FYI, I would like to see more cops around Van Vorst...perhaps take a few from the project areas, so VV doesn't go bad. I do think the firemen & trucks, should serve as deterants on streets, (in a passive manner), not just waiting for fires.

Posted on: 2009/7/23 13:31
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Thought this was interesting:

cops per 100,000 people

It would be cool if there was a search engine focused on government service stats. It could really help cut waste from county, city, local governments.

How do police departments or any other government department know how contracts and services stack up to comparable departments in other cities?

Posted on: 2009/7/23 13:23
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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The Problem with Cops are the way the come off to the citizens of the city.. They?re out there ticketing ppl for offence they commit freely and unquestioned. Speeding, running a red light when they aren?t responding with Lights and Sirens on and the biggest crime they commit is talking on the cell driving around.

This is what the citizens of this city sees when they see a police officer, how are they to respect them if they themselves have no respect for the law they are sworn to enforce?

Posted on: 2009/7/23 13:19
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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You guys assume those 300 per shift are actually beat cops on the shift. You should find out what percentage of the 900 are Brass who only see the streets on their commute to/from work, then do the math again. I'm sure you will love to find out we are working with a MUCH smaller number on the street than you think.

Posted on: 2009/7/23 12:42
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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300 of JC's finest on the streets at any given moment sounds pretty damn good to me. But numbers on a napkin don't mean much. I wonder what the number actually is (by ward, in case anyone actually find out).

Posted on: 2009/7/23 6:37
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Quote:

JRL wrote:
If a developer was looking for an abatement they have a city council meeting and vote to give it, my point being, the Healy Administration can't do enough to give developers abatement's and don't do enough to protect the citizens of Jersey City.


If you want to do the math, you should first try calculating how much the city budget collects from a non-abated property vs. the abatement. The city in nearly every case collects more money with an abated property; the county and school districts-- neither budget funds the JCPD-- are shafted by abatements, not the city.

Posted on: 2009/7/23 5:22
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Re: Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Interesting post... hilarious title.

Posted on: 2009/7/23 4:37
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Under Sized and Under Equipped Police Force
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Let's do the math... Population 240,000 ..Police Force 900..now divide 3, 8 hours shifts in 24hrs, now we have 300 Police officers and that is before those on sick leave, personal leave and vacation.

In addition they fighting criminals with shot guns ect...Our finest need to be better equipped. Then there is technology out there we have yet to adopt to fight crime.

Methinks, our Mayor and his Administration are not doing what it takes to seriously fight crime.

If a developer was looking for an abatement they have a city council meeting and vote to give it, my point being, the Healy Administration can't do enough to give developers abatement's and don't do enough to protect the citizens of Jersey City.

Posted on: 2009/7/23 4:03
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