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Re: In-State Tuition
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skepticalhook wrote:
Well "regulator" we here in the thinking-world are hoping that no amnesty is granted because, quite simply, the illegals simply do not earn enough to make any meaningful contribution to society, unless you think draining education, healthcare, prison and welfare services is a contribution. Round em up and ship em out-and while we are at it-fine and jail their employers. I can mow my own lawn. And "Gnomegeneral"-what tiny piece of dirt is your mom having mowed for $10? Even the illegals won't show up for that.


Much of what your using for arguments are exaggerations and generalizations. Did you know there are a large amount of illegal immigrants that pay income tax and sales tax? Did you know there are illegal immigrants fighting in Iraq in the US military? Should these people go back too? The health care argument is valid but not the part about them draining the prison and welfare system that is Americans. A very small percentage go to prison or use welfare. The whole point of giving them instate tuition is they will be more likely to go to college and then be able to get a higher tax paying job. In all the other states this is in place the student has to prove they went to an instate high school in the last 3 years and graduated. They can not receive financial aide and have to pay there tuition. Using the fact they got here illegally as your primary argument is not a good one since it is only a misdemeanor. Its like saying any teen that ever shoplifted should not get instate tuition.

Something I'm sure you can agree with me some what on is I think all illegals that commit felonies or are repeat offenders should be deported. Both our Canadian and Mexican sides of the border should be better protected.

The part I don't think you will agree on is that if they pay taxes they can stay as long as they aren't going to commit felonies. They really aren't stealing American jobs as much as people would have you think. When was the last time you seen Americans standing at the pick up spots construction and landscaping companies use? It is not like these spots are hidden or are secrets.

Posted on: 2009/4/3 20:43
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Re: In-State Tuition
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Skepticalhook, I don't often get the chance have a dialogue with people who are so committed to anti-immigrant ideology. Well done on your ardor, sir.

I'm curious. Re the issue of in-state tuition, have you considered that the recipients of the proposed bill probably had very little choice in the matter of coming to the N.J.? After all, it's aimed at college-age students, most of whom were brought here by their parents--some when they were very young. They speak English just fine, do well enough in school to get into NJ's state schools, and for all intents and purposes consider themselves New Jerseyans.

I assume your answer is something like: go back home or pay out-of-state tuition, boohoo. But assuming students don't leave and can't afford 2-3x the in-state rate, wouldn't you prefer they have greater access to education here that keeps them out of trouble, allows them to earn more and spend more, thus helping the local economy?

Posted on: 2009/4/3 20:41
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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GnomeGeneral wrote:
Actually, your "trash can on coles" rant is still more entertaining. But hey, it's cool - back in the burbs, my parents can still get their grass cut for $10. So I guess they are sort of useful. Not so great for the whole "green" hype however. Their car thingies make lots of stinky poo, (besides assaulting our ears with barbaric sounds.)


Someone who complains about shopping carts so much really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Back on topic though, there is NOTHING stopping anyone from doing those same jobs that the illegals are doing. $100 cash a day, tax free and you can still collect welfare? Something tells me you won't see them lining up to work.

Posted on: 2009/4/1 16:33
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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because the lines at the dmv aren't long enough....

Posted on: 2009/3/31 16:06
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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Fine by me. Let hardworking immigrants (legal as well as illegal) get in-state tuition.

Posted on: 2009/3/31 15:54
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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Giving out drivers licenses and tuition to those in the country illegally is just wrong. The question is not whether these people are good, bad, hardworking or lazy, or their potential wage earning status, etc. The operative term here is "illegal". Welcome to legal immigrants. Those that are not entering legally are breaking the law, which they are fully aware of. They are know the chances they are taking. They should not be rewarded for that. This state is in a financial hole as it is and we shouldn't have to pay for this too.

Posted on: 2009/3/31 15:17
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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skepticalhook wrote:
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regulator wrote:
youre not answering the question, "skepticalhook". i posed a legitimate scenario where the illegal immigrants would now all be legal tax paying residents. and, since you are a representative of those with the viewpoint that all illegals are bad, then i wanted to know your thoughts on where the hate against them would be re-directed now that they would (presumably) be legal.


Well "regulator", I thought you would have been able to get my point, but I will spell it out in simpler language for you to understand in this hypothetical, which I hope is not a "legitimate scenario". I place them with all drains on society in the unfortunate event that some amnesty is granted. Legal does not mean that they contribute to society in any meaningful way. I place them with the unwed mothers of 6 who do nothing more than raise criminals. I place them with the welfare cheats. I suspect I
place them with you, regulator.


so you went from disliking them because they were "illegal" to disliking them because they are drains on society?


Quote:

And this "hate" that you speak of


i believe you answered your own question throughout this thread

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(and why is it that anyone who disagrees with a liberal agenda is deemed a hater?) is for a society that wants to police itself only when it is politically correct to do so. That taxes the working who try to do things legally, just to pay for the lazy. I went to highschool, , college, grad school; avoided trouble; so that I could succeed. And I would say a good portion of my "rewards" goes for those who had a much better time and ignored society's rules. No one has personal responsibility under a welfare state.


no one brought up any form of politics (at least i didnt), so i dont see why this has to be a political agenda issue. for the record, i went to grammar school, high school, college and grad school all in the jc-hoboken area. but that's irrelevant to the matter we were discussing.

you jumped from 'illegals are bad because they dont pay taxes' to assuming that all illegals would be on welfare if they were, in fact, legal. but you then contradict yourself with

Quote:

In any event, I think for the most part "illegals" are good moral, hardworking people, but what part of illegal do you not understand. I just think the world would be better off if they did their hardworking back at home, rather than sending $$$ back there and contributing nothing here.


where you finally get to your point - namely, people should not come and bother us 'mericans and should just stay home.

if this thread were to head into a political-type thread, i'd venture to guess that you considered yourself some sort of limbaugh-listening conservative. but we'll leave the politics out, lest you diverge the topic into why liberals are bad.

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And K-Lo--offering drivers licenses will not, for the most part, mean that those you don't want on the road will be licensed and have insurance. It's just a first step towards regulator's legalization.


legalization is not unprecedented and is not as hypothetical or farfetched as you try to make it seem in your post. i was only a baby when it happened, so i can't speak about it firsthand though. someone throw me a bone here with this

Posted on: 2009/3/31 14:41
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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nightgownposse wrote:
I think what skeptical is trying to say is that only successful people should be allowed in America. Even if you are legal and paying taxes he believes that you should still not be allowed here cause you are a drain on society if you are making under a certain amount. It's good we never followed that rule cause than none of use would be here huh. I'm mean my great grandparents arrived with $14 dollars in their pockets.


Thanks for the simplistic translation, but what I am saying is that I prefer to award legal hardworking people, and if they fall on hard times, we pick them up. That we would be able to do much more easily if they didn't get lumped in with society's drains and waste of space.

My grandparents came here with less than $14, but they came here legally, worked and strived. I am sure they took handouts along the way, but they never looked at such things as entitlements. They learned English so that they could fit in and be American. Not some hyphenated form of American. They didn't come here and then cut themselves off to form their own society.

Posted on: 2009/3/31 13:45
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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skepticalhook wrote:
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regulator wrote:
youre not answering the question, "skepticalhook". i posed a legitimate scenario where the illegal immigrants would now all be legal tax paying residents. and, since you are a representative of those with the viewpoint that all illegals are bad, then i wanted to know your thoughts on where the hate against them would be re-directed now that they would (presumably) be legal.


Well "regulator", I thought you would have been able to get my point, but I will spell it out in simpler language for you to understand in this hypothetical, which I hope is not a "legitimate scenario". I place them with all drains on society in the unfortunate event that some amnesty is granted. Legal does not mean that they contribute to society in any meaningful way. I place them with the unwed mothers of 6 who do nothing more than raise criminals. I place them with the welfare cheats. I suspect I place them with you, regulator.

And this "hate" that you speak of (and why is it that anyone who disagrees with a liberal agenda is deemed a hater?) is for a society that wants to police itself only when it is politically correct to do so. That taxes the working who try to do things legally, just to pay for the lazy. I went to highschool, , college, grad school; avoided trouble; so that I could succeed. And I would say a good portion of my "rewards" goes for those who had a much better time and ignored society's rules. No one has personal responsibility under a welfare state.

In any event, I think for the most part "illegals" are good moral, hardworking people, but what part of illegal do you not understand. I just think the world would be better off if they did their hardworking back at home, rather than sending $$$ back there and contributing nothing here.

And K-Lo--offering drivers licenses will not, for the most part, mean that those you don't want on the road will be licensed and have insurance. It's just a first step towards regulator's legalization.



I think what skeptical is trying to say is that only successful people should be allowed in America. Even if you are legal and paying taxes he believes that you should still not be allowed here cause you are a drain on society if you are making under a certain amount. It's good we never followed that rule cause than none of use would be here huh. I'm mean my great grandparents arrived with $14 dollars in their pockets.

Posted on: 2009/3/31 13:39
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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regulator wrote:
youre not answering the question, "skepticalhook". i posed a legitimate scenario where the illegal immigrants would now all be legal tax paying residents. and, since you are a representative of those with the viewpoint that all illegals are bad, then i wanted to know your thoughts on where the hate against them would be re-directed now that they would (presumably) be legal.


Well "regulator", I thought you would have been able to get my point, but I will spell it out in simpler language for you to understand in this hypothetical, which I hope is not a "legitimate scenario". I place them with all drains on society in the unfortunate event that some amnesty is granted. Legal does not mean that they contribute to society in any meaningful way. I place them with the unwed mothers of 6 who do nothing more than raise criminals. I place them with the welfare cheats. I suspect I place them with you, regulator.

And this "hate" that you speak of (and why is it that anyone who disagrees with a liberal agenda is deemed a hater?) is for a society that wants to police itself only when it is politically correct to do so. That taxes the working who try to do things legally, just to pay for the lazy. I went to highschool, , college, grad school; avoided trouble; so that I could succeed. And I would say a good portion of my "rewards" goes for those who had a much better time and ignored society's rules. No one has personal responsibility under a welfare state.

In any event, I think for the most part "illegals" are good moral, hardworking people, but what part of illegal do you not understand. I just think the world would be better off if they did their hardworking back at home, rather than sending $$$ back there and contributing nothing here.

And K-Lo--offering drivers licenses will not, for the most part, mean that those you don't want on the road will be licensed and have insurance. It's just a first step towards regulator's legalization.

Posted on: 2009/3/31 13:26
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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I'd rather have licensed drivers on the road, than unlicensed. At least, you know they've passed a road test. Not giving people licenses doesn't mean they're not going to drive any more than not legalizing pot means people aren't going to smoke.

Posted on: 2009/3/31 12:52
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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youre not answering the question, "skepticalhook". i posed a legitimate scenario where the illegal immigrants would now all be legal tax paying residents. and, since you are a representative of those with the viewpoint that all illegals are bad, then i wanted to know your thoughts on where the hate against them would be re-directed now that they would (presumably) be legal.

Posted on: 2009/3/31 12:24
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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Well "regulator" we here in the thinking-world are hoping that no amnesty is granted because, quite simply, the illegals simply do not earn enough to make any meaningful contribution to society, unless you think draining education, healthcare, prison and welfare services is a contribution. Round em up and ship em out-and while we are at it-fine and jail their employers. I can mow my own lawn. And "Gnomegeneral"-what tiny piece of dirt is your mom having mowed for $10? Even the illegals won't show up for that.

Posted on: 2009/3/31 12:11
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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what''s gonna be the argument when the government extends amnesty and residency to illegals, thereby requiring them to pay taxes like everyone else? technically, they'll be paying taxes and no longer "free loading".

will the hate stop then? or will it just deflect to another aspect of the ex-illegal / now legal immigrant?

Posted on: 2009/3/31 3:26
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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...Those were two key recommendations of the governor's blue-ribbon panel studying immigrant policy.




Was this the Pabst Blue Ribbon panel!
Are you kidding me?In State tuition rates for someone who has entered the U.S. illegally.But more expensive tuition rates for a college bound kid who wants to go to a NJ public college and maybe grew up in Delaware ,Pennsylvania,or
New York.Maybe the out of state kid lives a couple of miles from the NJ border and would really like to go here but can't afford the out of State tuition rate but then someone here illegally could get a lower rate.Is there something wrong with this picture?


I wonder if there are any reduced rates for a education in a foreign country by virtue of the fact that the student is a U.S. citizen.I doubt it.

Posted on: 2009/3/31 2:49
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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Actually, your "trash can on coles" rant is still more entertaining. But hey, it's cool - back in the burbs, my parents can still get their grass cut for $10. So I guess they are sort of useful. Not so great for the whole "green" hype however. Their car thingies make lots of stinky poo, (besides assaulting our ears with barbaric sounds.)

Posted on: 2009/3/31 2:23
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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I think the "libs" are just gonna stand back while you two implode with your scatter-shot anger. Watching you guys argue with no one is kind of entertaining.

Posted on: 2009/3/31 0:35
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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Wow, Saabconv-got me nervous there. But seriously-we've all got good places for tacos, doobage and software support. Everyone else can go back home. La universidad de bombay has openings. Let's leave Rutgers U for out own under-achievers.

Oh, and I'm very dissapointed in all you bleeding heart liberals. No responses? Did an extra 2% unemployment change your outlook on immigration? Job prospects affecting your holier-than-tho positions? You are fair-weather losers!

Posted on: 2009/3/30 23:47
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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Skeptical - you're so angry. I think we should pay for schooling, and licenses, and while we're at it, lets buy them houses, and cars, and wait, lets let them be CEO of GM, and then the final next step - they can be President of the United States. And as Skeptical said before - F you libs that think this is a good idea....give us your tired and your poor meant - we will help you if you want to better your life. It certainly does NOT mean, come on over and get everything FREE.....

Posted on: 2009/3/30 23:35
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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Fine-lets focus on the waste-the corruption-but no no no way do you expand support to these f'ing leeches on society. Ship em back and, again, to those who protest-an extra go f yourself in advance, cause even you secretly know this is rediculous.

Posted on: 2009/3/30 23:21
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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You significantly under estimate the impact of immigrants on the state economy and remember that they pay sales tax - although it is not where nearly equivalent to their tax consumption.

You want to be angry about waste... look at the fraud and waste that rules this state. Let's start with looking at the 'citizens' of this state that pull at our tax payer dollars to pay for frivolity. How about that elected officials that pull multiple state pensions???

There are plenty of other items to F before immigrants.

Posted on: 2009/3/30 23:17
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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Oh, and I hope Corzine finds the same future as McGreevey-poor, unemployed and f'ed up the ass nightly (yes, McGreevey liked it, but still. . . ). Unfortunately, Corzine made enough money that he won't end up end up-hell will have a special place for this piece of crap.

Posted on: 2009/3/30 23:05
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Re: In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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F them. F them. And in advance for all you who protest, go F yourselves. When my grandparents came here, they were lucky to not get beaten along the way-that was their "one little leg up". In state tuition! Licenses! They don't even pay f'ing taxes! I am soooooo fed up with this crap-come legal and pay in full or get lost. Oh, and in case I was not clear, F them.

Posted on: 2009/3/30 22:58
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In-state tuition for NJ public colleges & NJ driver licenses urged for NJ illegal immigrants
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In-state tuition urged for NJ illegal immigrants

Newsday
March 30, 2009

JERSEY CITY, N.J. - A state panel says illegal immigrants in New Jersey should be eligible for in-state tuition and be able to obtain driver licenses.

Those were two key recommendations of the governor's blue-ribbon panel studying immigrant policy.

Gov. Jon S. Corzine said Monday he agrees that illegal immigrants should pay in-state tuition to attend New Jersey's public colleges. But he didn't endorse the panel's recommendation that illegal immigrants be extended state driving privileges, saying that's an issue for the federal government to decide.

The panel also recommended that New Jersey create a government agency dedicated to immigrant affairs. Corzine said he likes that idea and will propose it to state lawmakers.

Some immigrant advocacy groups are welcoming the panel's report as a good first step.

Posted on: 2009/3/30 17:16
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