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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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Xerxes wrote:
THat double conjoined studio...wouln't the best idea be to make a lovely 2 bedroom, 2 bath unit with one of the kitchens converted to a GORGEOUS walk-in closet?



no, 2x studio > 1x 2br unit. The person who bought it has no plan to live there, it's all for investment.

Posted on: 2008/11/23 21:43
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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There have been so many changes to the financial structure of this building over the decades that I would trust NOTHING except information from a long time homeowner.
For example after one of the bankruptcies an re-re-reorganizations, the apartment shares were sold by the HUD for a couple thousand dollars BUT the maintenance was well above $1000. I assume those people are still there, although many defaulted on the maintenance.


Were these studio units REALLY sold with the claim of $500 per month maintenance? That sounds oddly low given previous data. Are there still rent controlled tenants in the building?

(Oh, for those who over amplify the tax consequences of mortagage and maintenance interest, remember, you don't get a penny unless you are able to itemize away the gift that the government gives you, your standard deduction. Thus someone with a standard deduction of $7500 gets NO benefit on the first $7500 of his interest and tax payments.
THere are MANY homeowners who never see a cent of this benefit.)

THat double conjoined studio...wouln't the best idea be to make a lovely 2 bedroom, 2 bath unit with one of the kitchens converted to a GORGEOUS walk-in closet?

Posted on: 2008/11/23 14:38
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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JCSHEP wrote:
I lived by those buildings for a while, either its an optical illusion or all the balconies are sagging/falling off.


Seriously, stand on Chris Col. and look at the short side of the buildings, line up with one of the bulding edges and tell me these balconies are not sagging down.

Posted on: 2008/11/17 22:43
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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sporkster wrote:

Alb, where are you getting your figures from?


30k for a single person in Downtown JC sounds really low to me. Don't forget that JC is a huge city, so the "average" income also includes a lot of poverty-stricken areas, which pulls down the overall average. I'd say 50k for a fairly young, single Downtown resident with an average education and job sounds more probable.[/quote]

Short answer:

Thanks for discussing this in a mellow way.

Anyhow, your income estimate sounds reasonable to me.

In a good economy, in which workers making a steady $50,000 a year know they can easily find new jobs, then maybe spending 30 percent of income -- $1,250 per month -- on housing would be reasonable.

In a crummy economy, in which workers have to save more because they're more likely to be unemployed, I think workers earning $50,000 a year should only be spending 25 precent of income -- about $1,040 per month -- on housing.

So, assuming that your income estimate is correct, a Metropolis Towers studio is not as overpriced as I was suggesting, but it's still pretty expensive relative to what a lot of ordinary Manhattan office workers can really afford.

That means that the other nearby high-rise condos are way, way, way out of the price range of the typical Manhattan office worker.


Appendix:

- Apology for existence: I'm just trying to keep up my end of the conversation, not trying to say that I'm necessarily correct. One obvious counterargument is that, until recently, someone has been renting and buying a lot of very expensive housing here. Maybe there are actually a lot of people here making $250,000 per year.

- Data: Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to get really up-to-date ZIP code area income data through the Web.

The 2000 Census fact sheet is all I could find.

Census Bureau 07302 Fact Sheet

According to the fact sheet, 1999 median per capita 07302 income was about $29,000, and median household income was about $47,000.

The median housing cost for someone with a mortgage was about $1,700.

If you click to "see more" housing characteristics data, you come to a page that says the average rent for households that rented was about $800.

The median ratio of rent to household income was about 25% to 29%.

I don't know how much rents have increased since 2000, or how much typical incomes have increased. My gut feeling is that the typical income has increased about 30% and the typical housing cost has doubled.

One interesting thing is to compare the 07302 stats with the Cobble Hill, Brooklyn, stats:

Main 2000 Census Bureau Cobble Hill Fact Sheet page

Census Bureau 11201 Fact Sheet housing characteristics page

In 2000, the median rent in Cobble Hill was $822 -- only a little more than the median rent of $798 in 07302.

But the median household income there was $56,293 there, compared with $45,223 here.

If that differential has continued, I guess that explains why the selection of shops and restaurants is so much better in Cobble Hill than it is here . . .

Posted on: 2008/11/16 4:37
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
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JPhurst wrote:
The maintenance on the studios was around $500.00 per month.


That's a crime right there !

If I lived there I would want the maintenance costs itemized.


That includes all utilities (I only pay cable, phone and internet separately) and property taxes as well.

Posted on: 2008/11/15 23:10
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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wibbit wrote:

you are looking at a netnet rent income of 10k a year for a studio. 150k puts it on the line as a 15 year return.


If the job market is weak, I think that, in most places, a young, single person with a moderately crummy job would be making about $30,000 year. I think someone like that without great job security ought to be paying less than 25% of income in rent, or about $625 per month, or $7,500 per year.

It seems to me that that's really quite a bit more than a studio costs in most of the country.

So, if the economy tanks, and the economy here becomes more like the economy in the rest of the economy, then maybe you need to pay just $75,000 to get your money back in 10 years.

On the other hand: if an investment holds half of its value over time, maybe that would be a good deal in a really rotten economy where all investments were doing poorly and inflation was running at 10 percent every year.


Alb, where are you getting your figures from? 30k for a single person in Downtown JC sounds really low to me. Don't forget that JC is a huge city, so the "average" income also includes a lot of poverty-stricken areas, which pulls down the overall average. I'd say 50k for a fairly young, single Downtown resident with an average education and job sounds more probable.

Posted on: 2008/11/15 16:09
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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JPhurst wrote:
The maintenance on the studios was around $500.00 per month.


That's a crime right there !

If I lived there I would want the maintenance costs itemized.

Posted on: 2008/11/15 4:47
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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wibbit wrote:
and alb, i really dont understand what you are getting at.


Relative to what people here really earn, the condos and coops around here seem to be way overpriced.

Posted on: 2008/11/15 2:58
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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I lived by those buildings for a while, either its an optical illusion or all the balconies are sagging/falling off.

Posted on: 2008/11/14 22:17
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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The maintenance on the studios was around $500.00 per month.

A mortgage and maintenance combined looks like it would equal the rent that it being charged. The owner does get to deduct a decent amount of that from his/her taxes. Remember not only can he/she deduct the mortgage interest, but also the portion of the maintenance that goes to a) the building's mortgage interest and b) taxes. I'm not sure what percentage of the maintenance is tax deductible at Metropolis Towers.

And on top of it, the owner has equity, the renter does not.

So overall, I'd say it's an ok buy, even if not a steal.

Posted on: 2008/11/14 21:35
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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Xerxes wrote:
Anyone who paid $160,000 for a studio in a Treasury auction at that joint overpaid, IMHO.
Although I DO remember the studios being large ones with a nice dressing room and separate kitchen. I scoped the place out when it was NEW (and the studios were renting for $160/month and one bedrooms about $240 on the higher floors...that was 1970 just before two major recessions forced it into bankruptcy and seizure by the government! )

The buyer will be the OWNER but paying as much in Maintenance as if he were renting...AND he will have his mortgage to cope with.


(The two conjoined studios seems the best deal.)


i was tempted on the 2 of the larger studios at 150k, because both of them are converted into 1br and can be sold as 1br easily. But the management came right before the auction and said all the 1 br walls need to be teared down etc and it has to be converted back into a studio. I am sure there are ways around it, but just too much trouble to deal with them.

People dont realize what buying a coop means, vs condo.

1) You dont own the unit, you own shares of the company (the building). And the company has a big mortgage on the building owed to the bank. So if the building as a whole cannot pay their mortgage, the bank can and will come and seize the entire building and you lose the unit. It's like buying shares in a company, if it goes bankrupt, you lose your investment.

2) There are strict rules on what you can do with the unit, lik who can live in it, can you rent it out, can you change the layout, etc. You have the deal with the coop board/management, keep them well fed with gifts etc so they approve your stuff. It's a pain in the ass.

3) When you sell the unit, it's more difficult to find buyers, due to trying to get a mortgage for a coop and also the coop board needs to approve the new owner.

among many other disadvantages over a condo. That's why in most areas coops are always about 30-40% cheaper than an equal condo unit.

and alb, i really dont understand what you are getting at.

Posted on: 2008/11/14 21:00
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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Anyone who paid $160,000 for a studio in a Treasury auction at that joint overpaid, IMHO.
Although I DO remember the studios being large ones with a nice dressing room and separate kitchen. I scoped the place out when it was NEW (and the studios were renting for $160/month and one bedrooms about $240 on the higher floors...that was 1970 just before two major recessions forced it into bankruptcy and seizure by the government! )

The buyer will be the OWNER but paying as much in Maintenance as if he were renting...AND he will have his mortgage to cope with.


(The two conjoined studios seems the best deal.)

Posted on: 2008/11/14 13:18
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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devbeep wrote:

Or, maybe, I think, you could look up some real numbers.

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/results.php?location=22724


The Living Wage calculator has figures that are comparable to my guesstimes.

According to the Living Wage calculator, a typical single person living in Jersey City needs an annual income of about $24,000 per year. If that person pays half of after-tax income on housing, that person can spend about $884 per month on rent.

The Living Wage calculator suggests that the Metropolis Towers apartments probably cost about 2 times as much as someone here who's just making a living wage can afford.

I was strugling to say the apartments cost 2.5 times as much as I think people can really pay. So, my numbers are fairly close to the Living Wage numbers.

Another source of data to consider is the census data:

Here are some Jersey City census data.

I'm too tired to look up the median income per worker, but the median per household is about $47,000, so I think my estimate that a typical single person here might make about $30,000 is correct.

According to census figures, the median monthly housing cost for households that rent is about $800 per month. In other words, a studio at Metropolis Towers costs more than twice what a typical Jersey City household is paying for housing.

And, of course, Metropolis Towers is cheap for downtown.

I know downtown is different from the rest of the city, but I'm not sure incomes are really high enough to support the rents.

Posted on: 2008/11/14 6:07
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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fasteddie wrote:

WHAT? Alb, I read this 10 times and still don't know what it means. I will print it out and take it to bed with me and read it and sleep on it. Get back to you tomorrow.


Sarah Palin East

Posted on: 2008/11/14 1:24
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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alb wrote:
[
If the job market is weak, I think that, in most places, a young, single person with a moderately crummy job would be making about $30,000 year. I think someone like that without great job security ought to be paying less than 25% of income in rent, or about $625 per month, or $7,500 per year.

It seems to me that that's really quite a bit more than a studio costs in most of the country.

So, if the economy tanks, and the economy here becomes more like the economy in the rest of the economy, then maybe you need to pay just $75,000 to get your money back in 10 years.

On the other hand: if an investment holds half of its value over time, maybe that would be a good deal in a really rotten economy where all investments were doing poorly and inflation was running at 10 percent every year.


WHAT? Alb, I read this 10 times and still don't know what it means. I will print it out and take it to bed with me and read it and sleep on it. Get back to you tomorrow.

Posted on: 2008/11/14 1:19
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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alb wrote:
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If the job market is weak, I think that, in most places, a young, single person with a moderately crummy job would be making about $30,000 year. I think someone like that without great job security ought to be paying less than 25% of income in rent, or about $625 per month, or $7,500 per year.



Or, maybe, I think, you could look up some real numbers.

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/results.php?location=22724

Posted on: 2008/11/14 1:13
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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wibbit wrote:

you are looking at a netnet rent income of 10k a year for a studio. 150k puts it on the line as a 15 year return.


If the job market is weak, I think that, in most places, a young, single person with a moderately crummy job would be making about $30,000 year. I think someone like that without great job security ought to be paying less than 25% of income in rent, or about $625 per month, or $7,500 per year.

It seems to me that that's really quite a bit more than a studio costs in most of the country.

So, if the economy tanks, and the economy here becomes more like the economy in the rest of the economy, then maybe you need to pay just $75,000 to get your money back in 10 years.

On the other hand: if an investment holds half of its value over time, maybe that would be a good deal in a really rotten economy where all investments were doing poorly and inflation was running at 10 percent every year.

Posted on: 2008/11/14 0:54
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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I hope that is a good omen for Downtown Jersey City real estate.

Posted on: 2008/11/14 0:31
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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No, i am talking about the normal 1br that's 600ish sqft.

The monstrosity you are talking about actually is the only unit that went for a pretty reasonable price, actually lower than the normal 1br if i remember right. For someone who got the time to split it back into 2 studios, it's an ok deal.


I stand corrected! That's ridiculous. I really like living here, but those prices seem way too high for a seized property auction.

Posted on: 2008/11/14 0:08
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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FakeGreenDress wrote:

I assume you're referring to the one that was actually two units combined into one -- it's on a high floor and over 1000 sq. feet, so it's not your standard 1br.


No, i am talking about the normal 1br that's 600ish sqft.

The monstrosity you are talking about actually is the only unit that went for a pretty reasonable price, actually lower than the normal 1br if i remember right. For someone who got the time to split it back into 2 studios, it's an ok deal.

Posted on: 2008/11/13 23:38
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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The units went anywhere between $154,000 and $298,000. Most of the units were studios that went for around $180,000 - $190,000. That's a bit lower than what was being listed on MLS for comparable units, but not much.

This wasn't an IRS auction, but a U.S. Treasury auction for property seized by Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Apparently the 9 units were owned by someone who was up to no good. As I understand it, the property itself was not being directly used in any unlawful way, but somehow the owner's property was subject to forfeiture.

Posted on: 2008/11/13 22:45
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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Oh and I think this has some of the background on what happened financially in the past:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage ... sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Posted on: 2008/11/13 21:41
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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How does this happen, IRS auction? The only concievable thing i can think of is someone owned 9 units and owed a ton of taxes.

Posted on: 2008/11/13 21:39
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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wibbit wrote:
There were a lot of people there, if i remember correctly the 1br there went for around 290k, i wonder if the guy knows he could walked 3 blocks and bought in dixon mill a fully rennovated 1br CONDO for lower price.


I assume you're referring to the one that was actually two units combined into one -- it's on a high floor and over 1000 sq. feet, so it's not your standard 1br. I didn't check it out, but something like that has the potential to be a really interesting space. 290k seems quite reasonable for that unit, particularly if it has been renovated, even more so if it has the harbor view. (I live in one of the end units in the same building, and it's like having a postcard out the window.)

The rest, though... really don't sound like bargains. A bit surprising, considering the current state of the housing market...

Posted on: 2008/11/13 20:49
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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Are people crazy or what? Is this 2006 or what?

Posted on: 2008/11/13 20:46
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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wibbit wrote:
There were a lot of people there, if i remember correctly the 1br there went for around 290k, i wonder if the guy knows he could walked 3 blocks and bought in dixon mill a fully rennovated 1br CONDO for lower price.

There were a lot of clueless people, some were whining when the bid started at 100k, others were still bidding at 270k+.

there was also 1 guy there who already owned 20+ units, he basically put a floor on those units.

All in all, it was interesting. I didnt bid as i dont feel it's a good investment at those prices, especially for a coop and current nyc situation.

you are looking at a netnet rent income of 10k a year for a studio. 150k puts it on the line as a 15 year return.

Cash is king right now.


Wow, I would have thought these would have gone for a lot less. Hopefully no one is looking to flip them. There are already several of them on craigslist for identical prices and they have been on the market for a while.

Posted on: 2008/11/13 20:28
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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There were a lot of people there, if i remember correctly the 1br there went for around 290k, i wonder if the guy knows he could walked 3 blocks and bought in dixon mill a fully rennovated 1br CONDO for lower price.

There were a lot of clueless people, some were whining when the bid started at 100k, others were still bidding at 270k+.

there was also 1 guy there who already owned 20+ units, he basically put a floor on those units.

All in all, it was interesting. I didnt bid as i dont feel it's a good investment at those prices, especially for a coop and current nyc situation.

you are looking at a netnet rent income of 10k a year for a studio. 150k puts it on the line as a 15 year return.

Cash is king right now.

Posted on: 2008/11/13 20:05
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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sporkster wrote:
This is today... anyone go to this? I'm dying to see how much each unit went for! What's the easiest way to get this info?


http://www.ustreas.gov/auctions/treasury/rp/bidresults.shtml
check in a month.

Posted on: 2008/11/13 18:44
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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Posted on: 2008/11/13 17:59
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Re: Nine units in Metropolis Towers up for IRS auction Nov. 13
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This is today... anyone go to this? I'm dying to see how much each unit went for! What's the easiest way to get this info?

Posted on: 2008/11/13 17:24
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