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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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JCGuys wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
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K-Lo wrote:
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zoning are so restrictive that a place like Prato can't legally open up in the this or other neighborhoods


But Prato did legally open, and they were getting great word of mouth and building their customer base....and then they started expanding in a way they knew was illegal. This isn't a repeat of Atomic Wings.


Sigh... Atomic Wings. In the Hall of Shame of JC BD shenanigans, this likely takes the top spot.


I'm unfamiliar. What's the story behind Atomic Wings?


Type atomic wings in the search box. The saga is quite instructive regarding what is really holding JC back.

Posted on: 2015/8/9 20:33
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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bodhipooh wrote:
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K-Lo wrote:
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zoning are so restrictive that a place like Prato can't legally open up in the this or other neighborhoods


But Prato did legally open, and they were getting great word of mouth and building their customer base....and then they started expanding in a way they knew was illegal. This isn't a repeat of Atomic Wings.


Sigh... Atomic Wings. In the Hall of Shame of JC BD shenanigans, this likely takes the top spot.


I'm unfamiliar. What's the story behind Atomic Wings?

Posted on: 2015/8/7 21:22
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Yet, this guy is trying to do it the right way and look at the runaround he's getting: http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=34690


Posted on: 2015/8/7 21:21

Edited by JCGuys on 2015/8/7 21:37:54
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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K-Lo wrote:
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zoning are so restrictive that a place like Prato can't legally open up in the this or other neighborhoods


But Prato did legally open, and they were getting great word of mouth and building their customer base....and then they started expanding in a way they knew was illegal. This isn't a repeat of Atomic Wings.


Sigh... Atomic Wings. In the Hall of Shame of JC BD shenanigans, this likely takes the top spot.

Posted on: 2015/8/7 20:58
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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JCGuys wrote:
Thanks! Is anyone going to speak in support?

I would like to see more cafe's like Prato Bakeries setup shop in the city, legally.



and there's the key word: legally.

look, I enjoy Prato, and think they're a great addition to the neighborhood, but they entered into their lease with full knowledge of the zoning restrictions (and if they didn't, then they're knuckleheads.)

first, they added indoor tables. then, when nobody complained, they pushed their luck by adding seating out back.

now they've been asked to stick to the letter of the zoning that they originally agreed to, and they're trying to paint their neighbors as pitchfork-wielding NIMBYs.

not cool, Prato.

I really hope this works out to everyone's benefit. I'd like Prato to stay, and I'd like their neighbors to continue to enjoy living there. but if these two notions are mutually exclusive, them I'm gonna have to be Team Neighbor.


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Posted on: 2015/8/7 19:28
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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zoning are so restrictive that a place like Prato can't legally open up in the this or other neighborhoods


But Prato did legally open, and they were getting great word of mouth and building their customer base....and then they started expanding in a way they knew was illegal. This isn't a repeat of Atomic Wings.

Posted on: 2015/8/7 19:25
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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I_heart_JC wrote:
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JCGuys wrote:
Thanks! Is anyone going to speak in support?

I would like to see more cafe's like Prato Bakeries setup shop in the city, legally.



and there's the key word: legally.

look, I enjoy Prato, and think they're a great addition to the neighborhood, but they entered into their lease with full knowledge of the zoning restrictions (and if they didn't, then they're knuckleheads.)

first, they added indoor tables. then, when nobody complained, they pushed their luck by adding seating out back.

now they've been asked to stick to the letter of the zoning that they originally agreed to, and they're trying to paint their neighbors as pitchfork-wielding NIMBYs.

not cool, Prato.

I really hope this works out to everyone's benefit. I'd like Prato to stay, and I'd like their neighbors to continue to enjoy living there. but if these two notions are mutually exclusive, them I'm gonna have to be Team Neighbor.


THIS. +100.

I also a fan of Prato, but to turn a blind eye to the shenanigans is not the right solution, either. They gambled and got caught. It's that simple. I don't want to see them go away.

Posted on: 2015/8/7 18:33
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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I_heart_JC wrote:
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JCGuys wrote:
Thanks! Is anyone going to speak in support?

I would like to see more cafe's like Prato Bakeries setup shop in the city, legally.



and there's the key word: legally.

look, I enjoy Prato, and think they're a great addition to the neighborhood, but they entered into their lease with full knowledge of the zoning restrictions (and if they didn't, then they're knuckleheads.)

first, they added indoor tables. then, when nobody complained, they pushed their luck by adding seating out back.

now they've been asked to stick to the letter of the zoning that they originally agreed to, and they're trying to paint their neighbors as pitchfork-wielding NIMBYs.

not cool, Prato.

I really hope this works out to everyone's benefit. I'd like Prato to stay, and I'd like their neighbors to continue to enjoy living there. but if these two notions are mutually exclusive, them I'm gonna have to be Team Neighbor.


You ever try to deal with Jersey City's building, code and zoning officials? They surely don't make it easy on small business owners. It's the last thing they need in New Jersey, which is already a very expensive place to do business.

Not excusing Prato but it should be a wake up call for the rest of us that care about living in a vibrant city that our code and zoning are so restrictive that a place like Prato can't legally open up in the this or other neighborhoods.

Also not a fan of the scare tactics being used by Team Neighbors. Prato and businesses like it are more important to the city than the neighbors own selfish interest.

I remain confident that their will be a last minute morphing of the cafe ordinance so it covers Prato and allows it and others to legally operate.

Posted on: 2015/8/7 17:29
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Did the ordinance pass?

Posted on: 2015/8/7 17:18
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JCGuys wrote:
Thanks! Is anyone going to speak in support?

I would like to see more cafe's like Prato Bakeries setup shop in the city, legally.



and there's the key word: legally.

look, I enjoy Prato, and think they're a great addition to the neighborhood, but they entered into their lease with full knowledge of the zoning restrictions (and if they didn't, then they're knuckleheads.)

first, they added indoor tables. then, when nobody complained, they pushed their luck by adding seating out back.

now they've been asked to stick to the letter of the zoning that they originally agreed to, and they're trying to paint their neighbors as pitchfork-wielding NIMBYs.

not cool, Prato.

I really hope this works out to everyone's benefit. I'd like Prato to stay, and I'd like their neighbors to continue to enjoy living there. but if these two notions are mutually exclusive, them I'm gonna have to be Team Neighbor.

Posted on: 2015/8/7 16:41
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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JCGuys wrote:
Thanks! Is anyone going to speak in support?

Support of what, exactly? The new cafe ordinance, or Prato specifically?

It sounds like the new cafe ordinance is decent, and they do seem to have responded to input, which is nice.

As to Prato, there's a lot of facts we don't know, and probably don't know. That said: It appears that Prato played fast and loose with zoning. If so, then that's on them. They should follow the normal legal procedures to get things sorted out.


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I'm not a fan of the fear tactics being used against the detractors of the business.

Yeah, well. Welcome to Jersey City. And small-town politics. And JC List. And the Internet. :D

I don't think the hyperbole of the detractors went over very well, though it may have contributed to the removal of backyard access in the ordinance.

Posted on: 2015/8/6 13:37
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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JCGuys wrote:
"Sure a cafe is allowed now but it could be a... nuclear waste dump. Would you want to live next to a nuclear waste dump?"

Zoning is important, but I feel it's often times lacking common sense and is rarely updated to reflect changing values.


And please tell me, without zoning laws what legal basis would you have for stopping said nuclear waste dump?


Federal and state safety laws, not to mention the laws of economics. What developer in their right mind would go through the expense to open up a nuclear waste dump in DTJC. They will go to the desert where land is cheap and there isn't a soul around.

zoning is good at keeping undesirable land uses out of a neighborhood, but it can also be abused if it goes into too much detail and prevents a neighborhood from growing organically.

Posted on: 2015/8/5 14:44
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JCGuys wrote:
Thanks! Is anyone going to speak in support?

I would like to see more cafe's like Prato Bakeries setup shop in the city, legally.


Did you read the comments? Prato would not be considered a cafe under this proposed ordinance.
This is Jersey City man. It's way too much of a coincidence that this ordinance comes out now soon after Candace tweeted about ways to allow Prato to stay. It's true that Prato doesn't appear to be currently covered by the ordinance, but I have a gut feeling these issues are connected. Pay attention to any last minute minor or technical changes at city council. Who else could they trying to target with the ordinance?

Posted on: 2015/8/5 14:31
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JCGuys wrote:
Thanks! Is anyone going to speak in support?

I would like to see more cafe's like Prato Bakeries setup shop in the city, legally.


Did you read the comments? Prato would not be considered a cafe under this proposed ordinance.

Posted on: 2015/8/5 9:33
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JCGuys wrote:
"Sure a cafe is allowed now but it could be a... nuclear waste dump. Would you want to live next to a nuclear waste dump?"

Zoning is important, but I feel it's often times lacking common sense and is rarely updated to reflect changing values.


And please tell me, without zoning laws what legal basis would you have for stopping said nuclear waste dump?

Posted on: 2015/8/4 22:56
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Thanks! Is anyone going to speak in support?

I would like to see more cafe's like Prato Bakeries setup shop in the city, legally.

I'm not a fan of the fear tactics being used against the detractors of the business. "Sure a cafe is allowed now but it could be a late night club blaring music or a nuclear waste dump. Would you want to live next to a nuclear waste dump? Oh, won't somebody please think of the children!"

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Zoning is important, but I feel it's often times lacking common sense and is rarely updated to reflect changing values.

Posted on: 2015/8/4 17:46
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Look at 8.

"Review and discussion of proposed amendment to Land Development Ordinance Definitions for the addition of cafes. Formal action may be taken. Carried from July 21, 2015 regular meeting."



Posted on: 2015/8/4 17:07
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I'm confused on all this... the Planning Board meets today, but I don't see it on the agenda.

Posted on: 2015/8/4 16:03
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I_heart_JC wrote:
the "no hooded ventilation system" is a head-scratcher. if somebody's cooking indoors - even if it's just a caf?-style egg sandwich - shouldn't ventilation be a priority?


I think the key aspect of that requirement is the part you left out: it can not exhaust to the outside. I think they are envisioning very simple cooking (heating up certain items, perhaps pressing a croissant or sandwich, etc) and for that you could have a hooded setup that pulls the air and filters it, but doesn't vent to the outside.

I am still trying to understand exactly what businesses they have in mind with this ordinance.

Posted on: 2015/8/4 15:41
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the "no hooded ventilation system" is a head-scratcher. if somebody's cooking indoors - even if it's just a caf?-style egg sandwich - shouldn't ventilation be a priority?

Posted on: 2015/8/4 13:44
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K-Lo wrote:
I have heard that Prato does not fall under this cafe definition.


I figured as much, given the large ovens and their current setup. If that is the case, what exactly is going to happen now?

And, from a purely logical standpoint, if Prato is not considered a cafe, what exact IS a cafe? I guess a coffee shop would fit the description, as long as they don't do a whole lot of baking on premises. What else would qualify for the cafe designation?? Small businesses that sell/serve alcohol will not qualify either. I am really puzzled by this new ordinance.

Posted on: 2015/8/4 1:14
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Seems to me they should apply for some kind of variance, if they haven't already.

They are, after all: Part bakery, part cafe, and not at all a bodega (like the previous business in that spot).

Posted on: 2015/8/3 20:40
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I have heard that Prato does not fall under this cafe definition.

Posted on: 2015/8/3 15:52
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Prato has those big ovens where they make bread - so are they cafe?

Posted on: 2015/8/3 14:24
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CAFE ? RESTAURANT, CATEGORY TWO - a small-scale restaurant, with limited seating, engaged in the selling of light meals and drinks. A caf? is designed to operate for substantial carry-out service; delivery service; self-service; counter service, and which may, but is not required to, include on-premise consumption. No commercial kitchen appliances or ventilation systems are permitted.

345-60. ? Supplementary Zoning Regulations
A-W. Unchanged
X. Cafe - Category Two, Restaurant
1. Conditional Use permitted in all zoning districts.
a. Shall only be located where there is an existing legal storefront.
b. In no instance shall alcohol be served or consumed on premises.
c. In no instance shall a hooded ventilation system, exhausting outside the building, be permitted.
d. Seating shall be limited to no more than 20 seats total both inside and outside.
e. In no instance shall rear yard seating be permitted.
f. In no instance shall food preparation create grease-laden vapors.
g. Garbage receptacles shall be kept within the building for storage, so that it is not stored on any street, sidewalk, areaway, front yard or within any public Right of Way. The owner shall provide for the daily collection, haulage and disposal of their own refuse with a private contractor, pursuant to Chapter 287-6, 9.
h. Caf? shall not stay open any later than 10 pm, and not open to the public before 5 am.

Posted on: 2015/8/3 14:20
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K-Lo wrote:
Adjourned to 8/4, I think.


Just as K-Lo predicted - the Cafe amendment (a.k.a. ?the Prato amendment?) is on the agenda for the Planning Board meeting, August 4th. Don't think this would be anything else.... It will be interesting to see the wording.

From the agenda:
?8. Review and discussion of proposed amendment to Land Development Ordinance Definitions for the addition of Cafes. Formal action may be taken. Carried from July 21, 2015 regular meeting?

http://www.jerseycitynj.gov/uploadedF ... nda/15.-Aug%204%20agn.pdf

Posted on: 2015/8/1 15:45
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This looks reasonable to me in balancing people and business interests. Prato might be able to add a few more table at the front between planters.

Posted on: 2015/8/1 12:16
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jcgurl wrote:
I just wanted to share an update on the Cafe Zoning Amendment from Candice Osborne's office. Because of neighborhood feedback, the proposed ordinance has been revised to remove the backyard seating option. The amendment would allow for cafes to have a combined total of 20 seats in front of their establishment and indoors. I believe this will be voted on at the next city council meeting.


jcgurl, sounds promising. Is there some way that this can be confirmed, other than a posting here? I've seen situations where "promised" amendments don't actually happen.

Posted on: 2015/7/31 16:32
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HippieShowgirl wrote:
Wait ... that seems so ... reasonable and sensible and an excellent compromise. This is Jersey City. Are you sure? :)


right? I had to double-check the url.

Posted on: 2015/7/31 15:58
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jcgurl wrote:
I just wanted to share an update on the Cafe Zoning Amendment from Candice Osborne's office. Because of neighborhood feedback, the proposed ordinance has been revised to remove the backyard seating option. The amendment would allow for cafes to have a combined total of 20 seats in front of their establishment and indoors. I believe this will be voted on at the next city council meeting.


Thanks JCGURL. Removing backyard seating is very wise! Can I ask, how a "Cafe" is now defined in this new Cafe Zoning Amendment?

Posted on: 2015/7/31 15:24
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