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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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jcgurl wrote:
I just wanted to share an update on the Cafe Zoning Amendment from Candice Osborne's office. Because of neighborhood feedback, the proposed ordinance has been revised to remove the backyard seating option. The amendment would allow for cafes to have a combined total of 20 seats in front of their establishment and indoors. I believe this will be voted on at the next city council meeting.


That sounds like a reasonable modification. I do wonder if/how they intend to limit any abuse of this new privilege. Say, what's to stop a bodega from now putting seats inside and outside and avail themselves of the perks of this ordinance. Some bodegas are good neighbors, some others not so much. Are people going to be OK when the neighborhood drunks start congregating at bodega sidewalk seating to leer and ogle the women? Of course, that's an "extreme" example, but one within the realm of possibilities if the ordinance allows any "food" business to add sidewalk seating.

In any case, I am glad that things will work out for everyone in the end while still mildly disappointed about Prato and the way they went about their seating (especially since I really like their products and definitely don't want to see them leave) but I guess this will all be forgotten in short time.

Posted on: 2015/7/31 15:04
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Wait ... that seems so ... reasonable and sensible and an excellent compromise. This is Jersey City. Are you sure? :)

Posted on: 2015/7/31 14:43
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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I just wanted to share an update on the Cafe Zoning Amendment from Candice Osborne's office. Because of neighborhood feedback, the proposed ordinance has been revised to remove the backyard seating option. The amendment would allow for cafes to have a combined total of 20 seats in front of their establishment and indoors. I believe this will be voted on at the next city council meeting.

Posted on: 2015/7/31 14:24
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Sommerman wrote:
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nightgownposse wrote:
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Sommerman wrote:
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nightgownposse wrote:
There are 2 restaurants further up the street on Erie that aren't disturbing the peace and they are open later.


Where did you get that information, because I beg to differ - more litter, more loud pedestrians late into the night.



I got my information from living there. Where did you get yours chicken little?


From my house on Erie off First


Seems like the two of you are referring to opposite directions, then; I interpret "further up the street" to mean northbound on Erie (Blue Lotus, Basic, Ahri's Kitchen), and not southbound on Erie (Talde).

Posted on: 2015/7/25 1:09
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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jcgurl wrote:
I'm trying hard not to get too drawn into this but it seems like some of the commenters don't understand the concept of zoning. Areas that are zoned as "residential" prohibit businesses from opening up there. This helps protect the character of a neighborhood and protects property values. Without zoning, a car repair shop could open next to my brownstone and leave broken down cars all over the place.

Current zoning should be enforced and I sympathize with those whose lives would be impacted should this variance be accepted.


I'm cracking up at all the Prato supporters who are like WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST BAKERIES, YOU MONSTER? when it is so obviously not just about a bakery.

Posted on: 2015/7/25 0:46
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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nightgownposse wrote:
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Sommerman wrote:
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nightgownposse wrote:
There are 2 restaurants further up the street on Erie that aren't disturbing the peace and they are open later.


Where did you get that information, because I beg to differ - more litter, more loud pedestrians late into the night.



I got my information from living there. Where did you get yours chicken little?


From my house on Erie off First

Posted on: 2015/7/24 21:00
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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jcgurl wrote:
I remember the bodega. It didn't have garden seating. That's the difference. "Maybe get your facts straight before ranting."


As much as I am generally pro-development, she's not wrong.

Prato, as much as I love them, knew the zoning code before they signed their lease. They tried to skirt the code, got caught, and in normal circumstances should have attempted to receive an exemption to said code. There likely wouldn't have been any push-back for their indoor seating, but likely wouldn't have been able to get anything done regarding the back yard.

Instead, a sweeping (relatively) change to zoning code is being sought to solve one business's perceived problem. That seems overreaching, and is likely to piss off a bunch of homeowners with vested interests, and not for bad reasons.

Edit: I forgot about the pedophile argument. That was a fantastic bit of irrelevant fear-mongering.


Except you are perpetuating the myth that this ordinance is somehow in response to Prato. If you read the thread, you'll see the two are entirely unconnected. This ordinance was in the works long before Prato's situation.


I would say that is the most depressing part of the entire scenario. This terribly loose language is what the city came up with for the ordinance after how many months?

Posted on: 2015/7/24 15:28
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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MidwestTransplant wrote:
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jcgurl wrote:
I remember the bodega. It didn't have garden seating. That's the difference. "Maybe get your facts straight before ranting."


As much as I am generally pro-development, she's not wrong.

Prato, as much as I love them, knew the zoning code before they signed their lease. They tried to skirt the code, got caught, and in normal circumstances should have attempted to receive an exemption to said code. There likely wouldn't have been any push-back for their indoor seating, but likely wouldn't have been able to get anything done regarding the back yard.

Instead, a sweeping (relatively) change to zoning code is being sought to solve one business's perceived problem. That seems overreaching, and is likely to piss off a bunch of homeowners with vested interests, and not for bad reasons.

Edit: I forgot about the pedophile argument. That was a fantastic bit of irrelevant fear-mongering.


Except you are perpetuating the myth that this ordinance is somehow in response to Prato. If you read the thread, you'll see the two are entirely unconnected. This ordinance was in the works long before Prato's situation.

Posted on: 2015/7/24 14:46
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Sommerman wrote:
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nightgownposse wrote:
There are 2 restaurants further up the street on Erie that aren't disturbing the peace and they are open later.


Where did you get that information, because I beg to differ - more litter, more loud pedestrians late into the night.



I got my information from living there. Where did you get yours chicken little?

Posted on: 2015/7/24 14:12
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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nightgownposse wrote:
There are 2 restaurants further up the street on Erie that aren't disturbing the peace and they are open later.


Where did you get that information, because I beg to differ - more litter, more loud pedestrians late into the night.


Posted on: 2015/7/24 13:49
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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jcgurl wrote:
I remember the bodega. It didn't have garden seating. That's the difference. "Maybe get your facts straight before ranting."


As much as I am generally pro-development, she's not wrong.

Prato, as much as I love them, knew the zoning code before they signed their lease. They tried to skirt the code, got caught, and in normal circumstances should have attempted to receive an exemption to said code. There likely wouldn't have been any push-back for their indoor seating, but likely wouldn't have been able to get anything done regarding the back yard.

Instead, a sweeping (relatively) change to zoning code is being sought to solve one business's perceived problem. That seems overreaching, and is likely to piss off a bunch of homeowners with vested interests, and not for bad reasons.

Edit: I forgot about the pedophile argument. That was a fantastic bit of irrelevant fear-mongering.

Posted on: 2015/7/24 13:35
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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no we get it, we want it to change because it doesn't effect the neighborhood except in a positive way.


Except it doesn't. It is, in fact, a negative for many people, most notably the people living directly by the place.

And has been mentioned many times, again, this also goes far more than one exception to the variance for one place, it's changing the definition of all eateries. Like places that stay open past 7:30. Like places that might get a liquor license. Like having multiple ones on the same block.

Ask the tenants above Zeppelin Hall how pissed they were in the beginning, because what they were told was going there wasn't what it actually is. A bunch of people moved out, and I think that Mocco, the owner, had to reach agreements with people on the lower floors to install soundproofing windows.

Posted on: 2015/7/24 1:47
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Easy, Nut, relax... You're getting way too worked up. You're gonna have a stroke. It's nothing more than a few folks expressing an opinion 'bout their 'hood.

So chill.... and quit the ?shut the fuck up? shit. News flash for you ? it's America, people say what they want, regardless of what you think. If you don't like it, then you're free to ignore them.

Posted on: 2015/7/24 1:14
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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No time to quote your hysterics about brownstones becoming an auto body shop, abandoned cars and whatnot... Your original argument was focused abound zoning and asking how a business could possibly open up on a residential block and I was simply "reminding" you it was a business BEFORE.

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jcgurl wrote:
I remember the bodega. It didn't have garden seating. That's the difference. "Maybe get your facts straight before ranting."

Posted on: 2015/7/23 23:34
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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"All this legalese makes my head spin.

How far back do we want to take this stupid pissing contest?

The Dutch should have properly applied for a variance before building on Lenape land! If you're not ok with Algonquin culture, you shouldn't have moved here!

Shut the fuck up already. Things change. Neighborhoods change. Deeeeeeeeeal with it.

Prato is free to go seek a variance to have backyard seating. It's legal. My neighbors sit outside in their yard nightly and smoke cigarettes and talk about the most insipid shit. I'm not going to try to get some kind of injunction to get them to shut their stupid mouths. Who cares? Have a glass of wine and live and let live."


Ha! couldn't agree more

Posted on: 2015/7/23 23:31
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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All this legalese makes my head spin.

How far back do we want to take this stupid pissing contest?

The Dutch should have properly applied for a variance before building on Lenape land! If you're not ok with Algonquin culture, you shouldn't have moved here!

Shut the fuck up already. Things change. Neighborhoods change. Deeeeeeeeeal with it.

Prato is free to go seek a variance to have backyard seating. It's legal. My neighbors sit outside in their yard nightly and smoke cigarettes and talk about the most insipid shit. I'm not going to try to get some kind of injunction to get them to shut their stupid mouths. Who cares? Have a glass of wine and live and let live.

User1111 gets it. Neighborhood is different. Don't like it, bounce. I moved next to a police station on Erie I figured it would be nice and quiet. For a while, it was. Now it's the opposite of quiet. I'm probably going to move. Who cares?

Posted on: 2015/7/23 22:28
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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I remember the bodega. It didn't have garden seating. That's the difference. "Maybe get your facts straight before ranting."

Posted on: 2015/7/23 21:41
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Commercial retail, not restaurant. Different zoning.

Posted on: 2015/7/23 21:31
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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This is getting really wacko.... Laugh.

Quote:

tamard wrote:

...It was not someone's living room turned Italian bakery.


And:
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nightgownposse wrote:

It's the same logic that anti gay marriage folks have when they say "oh what next? can I marry my dog?"

Posted on: 2015/7/23 21:19
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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jcgurl: You must be fairly new to the neighborhood... Although this storefront was vacant for some time, it was previously a bodega. Hence, it was commercially zoned BEFORE. It was not someone's living room turned Italian bakery. Maybe get your facts straight before ranting.

Quote:

jcgurl wrote:
I'm trying hard not to get too drawn into this but it seems like some of the commenters don't understand the concept of zoning. Areas that are zoned as "residential" prohibit businesses from opening up there. This helps protect the character of a neighborhood and protects property values. Without zoning, a car repair shop could open next to my brownstone and leave broken down cars all over the place.

Posted on: 2015/7/23 20:55
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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jcgurl wrote:
So you would be O.K. if a business, for which your neighborhood is not zoned, opened up next door to your home and significantly impacted your property value? Let's say it's a pawn shop, just for the sake of argument. I won't even get into the noise issue.


I think you are confusing perception with reality

Posted on: 2015/7/23 20:22
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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So you would be O.K. if a business, for which your neighborhood is not zoned, opened up next door to your home and significantly impacted your property value? Let's say it's a pawn shop, just for the sake of argument.

I'm not objecting to them being in the neighborhood (I love Prato!) or that they have indoor seating. It's that they are trying to have outdoor seating which is apparently prohibited and which they knew wasn't allowed when they chose their location. Why should their desires trump the needs of the hundreds of people whose windows and backyards are within earshot of the outdoor garden?

Posted on: 2015/7/23 20:16
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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jcgurl wrote:
I'm trying hard not to get too drawn into this but it seems like some of the commenters don't understand the concept of zoning. Areas that are zoned as "residential" prohibit businesses from opening up there. This helps protect the character of a neighborhood and protects property values. Without zoning, a car repair shop could open next to my brownstone and leave broken down cars all over the place.

The "time to move to the burbs" comments don't help either. I've lived in JC for 15 years. I'm not a renter. I own a home here, vote, pay taxes and as a participant in a democracy think that my voice counts. I am thrilled that JC has changed so much for the better since I moved here. I love all the new restaurants. It's amazing. I'm not opposed to change. But they SHOULD NOT INFRINGE ON OTHER PEOPLE'S RIGHTS! Current zoning should be enforced and I sympathize with those whose lives would be impacted should this variance be accepted.


no we get it, we want it to change because it doesn't effect the neighborhood except in a positive way. Did you fight against the change in law when Newark ave bars and restaurants had to close by 11? There are 2 restaurants further up the street on Erie that aren't disturbing the peace and they are open later. What's yawn inducing is the fact that people think that if Prato or another cafe is allowed to "gasp" have indoor seating or use their backyard that they will all of a sudden become a night club. It's the same logic that anti gay marriage folks have when they say "oh what next? can I marry my dog?" it's illogical. I've lived here longer than you, also own my place pay taxes, blah blah blah all the irrelevant stuff you throw out there to make it seem like your point is more valid. It's sad that you live by Prato cause that means you're my neighbor.
It sounds like you don't get the concept of a city or belong in one.

Posted on: 2015/7/23 19:55
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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I'm trying hard not to get too drawn into this but it seems like some of the commenters don't understand the concept of zoning. Areas that are zoned as "residential" prohibit businesses from opening up there. This helps protect the character of a neighborhood and protects property values. Without zoning, a car repair shop could open next to my brownstone and leave broken down cars all over the place.

The "time to move to the burbs" comments don't help either. I've lived in JC for 15 years. I'm not a renter. I own a home here, vote, pay taxes and as a participant in a democracy think that my voice counts. I am thrilled that JC has changed so much for the better since I moved here. I love all the new restaurants. It's amazing. I'm not opposed to change. But they SHOULD NOT INFRINGE ON OTHER PEOPLE'S RIGHTS! Current zoning should be enforced and I sympathize with those whose lives would be impacted should this variance be accepted.

Posted on: 2015/7/23 19:42
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Adjourned to 8/4, I think.

Posted on: 2015/7/23 18:57
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Fomite wrote:

Sounds like it's time to move to the burbs.


^ yawn.

Posted on: 2015/7/23 18:22
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Fomite wrote:
"I have been a big fan of their establishment since it opened but I was kind of bewildered how they were able to open in such a residential neighborhood."

Uhhh It's a coffee shop. Where else should it open?


This gave me a good laugh as well. It's a coffee shop that closes at 7:30 pm. Everyones hands must be mighty sore from all the hand wringing over this

Posted on: 2015/7/23 17:01
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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"I have been a big fan of their establishment since it opened but I was kind of bewildered how they were able to open in such a residential neighborhood."

Uhhh It's a coffee shop. Where else should it open?

Posted on: 2015/7/23 16:52
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Most of you sound like Yvonne, Hating on change.... I did not like the way DTJC was changing so I left. No need to move to the burbs, Downtown JC is moving in a direction that is not guaranteeing peace in quite. Tower after tower coming down there so its moving towards a dense destination area with active nightlife. I love night life but I don't want it outside my door.

Posted on: 2015/7/23 16:28
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Something some people on this thread are not understanding is that NOISE cannot be blocked out with a fence. I invested a half a million dollars to have a beautiful Jersey City condo with a quiet back garden and I'm counting on the quiet back garden to be a selling point when I decide to cash in my chips. I've invested a lot of time, money and energy in my property to that end. My young child's bedroom is next to the garden and when neighbors occasionally have loud parties, he can't sleep (he still naps so daytime noise is also a problem which is why he doesn't have the bedroom that faces the street). Having a even somewhat loud cafe next door would dramatically impact my quality of life as well as my property value. If the city wants to keep attracting people to invest in residential real estate, they need to think twice about this one. FWIW, I live on the same block as Prato but not close enough that the cafe would impact me directly. I have been a big fan of their establishment since it opened but I was kind of bewildered how they were able to open in such a residential neighborhood. I hope the city continues to enforce the zoning and not bend the rules on a whim.


Sounds like it's time to move to the burbs.

Posted on: 2015/7/23 16:24
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