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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Update
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It's a real shame that some people are still going to insist on giving their dogs the run of the place. There's a real dissonance between the word "community" and this kind of selfish behavior.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 17:40
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I am looking forward to letting my dogs enjoy the new Hamilton Park. If you want the designated dogrun area for something else then take it. I don't do dogruns.


Now THERE'S the classic HP dog owner that we've come to know and love! "F@%k the rest of you, the law, and common civility, I'll do what I damn well please". Yup, 10 years ago the vocal dog owners fought tooth and nail against having a dog run, V is simply a die hard true believer in the power of "me first".


No. My dogs first then me then maybe you. No, not you.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 16:59
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Update
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Vigilante wrote:
I am looking forward to letting my dogs enjoy the new Hamilton Park. If you want the designated dogrun area for something else then take it. I don't do dogruns.


Now THERE'S the classic HP dog owner that we've come to know and love! "F@%k the rest of you, the law, and common civility, I'll do what I damn well please". Yup, 10 years ago the vocal dog owners fought tooth and nail against having a dog run, V is simply a die hard true believer in the power of "me first".

Posted on: 2009/5/1 14:44
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i am so mad that they left the friggen trash bins inside the chain link fence...... Hello.............. IDIOTS................

Posted on: 2009/5/1 1:12
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Update
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If this were really a conversation about "equal rights" wouldn't we be falling all over ourselves to also include a cricket field (pitch?) in the park? That's certainly something members of the park-using community seem to want. Though plenty of others seem to find the idea repulsive. No need to get into the dynamics at work there.

Every park can't have every amenity. You can't make everybody happy, and just because your local park has amenties you may not personally enjoy (tennis courts, for example) does not mean that you are "entitled" (sorry, but it's the right word) to an amenity of equal size that you would enjoy. At the end of the day, somebody will get left out (like our cricket players).

I think the difference with HP is that some of the park-using dog-owners, who are being given a dog run in the renovation, and who have been given access to a temporary run in the tennis court, speak about dog runs as if they are a right and not an amenity. There's a big difference there, and tone matters.



A real cricket pitch would take up the entire park. I am looking forward to letting my dogs enjoy the new Hamilton Park. If you want the designated dogrun area for something else then take it. I don't do dogruns.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 0:36
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Update
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If this were really a conversation about "equal rights" wouldn't we be falling all over ourselves to also include a cricket field (pitch?) in the park? That's certainly something members of the park-using community seem to want. Though plenty of others seem to find the idea repulsive. No need to get into the dynamics at work there.

Every park can't have every amenity. You can't make everybody happy, and just because your local park has amenties you may not personally enjoy (tennis courts, for example) does not mean that you are "entitled" (sorry, but it's the right word) to an amenity of equal size that you would enjoy. At the end of the day, somebody will get left out (like our cricket players).

I think the difference with HP is that some of the park-using dog-owners, who are being given a dog run in the renovation, and who have been given access to a temporary run in the tennis court, speak about dog runs as if they are a right and not an amenity. There's a big difference there, and tone matters.

Posted on: 2009/4/30 20:19
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First, when dog owners have a place to take their dogs for exercise, there is less dog waste deposited elsewhere in the community, especially in parks, which are used by everyone and made much more pleasant by the absence of dog doo doo on public lawns (more dog runs at parks = dogs pooping in the runs, not on the lawns).


You'd think this would be true, but no.

Posted on: 2009/4/30 19:55
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I don't mean to antagonize you but, since when do dog owners get special rights in terms of allocating taxpayer money? It's not like dogs (or cats for that matter) pay taxes. Do dog owners pay a surcharge that entitles them to dog runs?

If I own a cow, should I have some rights to grazing land, or a cow pasture in Hamilton Park? Am I missing something here, or have we elevated some forms of animal's stature to those of humans?

Let me try not to antagonizing in my reply, but take it as you like.

Say my chosen form of park recreation is throwing a ball for my dog, playing tug of war, etc. Personally, it?s my way of blowing off steam after a day of work. Not for everyone ? but to each his own. I may see value in that activity, you don?t ? so be it.

To me, asking dog owner?s to pay a surcharge for a dog run in a public space, is like asking basket players to pay a surcharge to play basketball, tennis players a surcharge to use the courts, or parents a surcharge to use the swings. Yes dog ownership is a privilege, not a right. But isn?t it also a privilege, not a right, to play full-court basketball, tennis on two courts or have a park spray pool at your kids disposal?...

Dogs don?t pay taxes. Dog-owners do. The run is for dog-owners. I don?t see it as a matter of ?special rights? or ?entitlement? (the single most ridiculously misused word on jclist) - to me, I?d call it a matter of equal rights.

Just trying to be constructive,? but I fear conversations like these are doomed. Feel free to flame away!

Posted on: 2009/4/30 19:48
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Update
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I don't own dogs (I'm a cat person actually), but I love public dog runs and am happy to have my tax dollars go towards the creation and maintainance of dog runs (I even gave money a few years back to help support the VVP dog run's creation). There are many public benefits dog runs confer on the community at large, regardless of whether or not you own dogs yourself. Here's two:

First, when dog owners have a place to take their dogs for exercise, there is less dog waste deposited elsewhere in the community, especially in parks, which are used by everyone and made much more pleasant by the absence of dog doo doo on public lawns (more dog runs at parks = dogs pooping in the runs, not on the lawns).

Second, dog runs are an additional ammenity in the neighbohood that demonstrates that the city takes an interest in the lives of its citizens. The more public ammenities the better, I say, as well-made and well-maintained public spaces can only better the neighborhood in the eyes of prospective residents. In other words, dog runs are, in the long term, just as important as sidewalks and trees for portraying the public face of who we are in Jersey City.

I know the park renovation will be an inconvenience, but I am quite glad it's being done, dog run included.

Posted on: 2009/4/30 19:37
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Actually, as a dog(s) owner who usually just lurks on this list, I'm glad to see such a reasoned response. I would like a safe clean place to run my dogs so they can burn off all the energy they have. I love the fact the socialization makes my pooches more pleasant on leash as they walk down city streets.

I'd like to be taken seriously as a taxpayer, and provide a place for me to run my pups. I don't hate kids, and I want someone to care about my vote. And respect the considerable amount of money I spend both in taxes and throughout downtown.


I don't mean to antagonize you but, since when do dog owners get special rights in terms of allocating taxpayer money? It's not like dogs (or cats for that matter) pay taxes. Do dog owners pay a surcharge that entitles them to dog runs?

If I own a cow, should I have some rights to grazing land, or a cow pasture in Hamilton Park? Am I missing something here, or have we elevated some forms of animal's stature to those of humans?

Posted on: 2009/4/30 18:25
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Enos Jones Park is in for a rude awakening the next few months. Hope you like DOGS!!!

Posted on: 2009/4/30 14:54
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But where will my cricket-playing dog crap?

Posted on: 2009/4/30 14:07
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They're putting a chain link fence around the park right now . . .

Posted on: 2009/4/30 14:02
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Vigilante wrote:
Your tax dollars are being used to help Silverman Developers sell condos. Stop falling all over yourselves to kiss the guy's ass. In the end he will get a new park to serve as a selling point for his business. How stupid can you be?


Agreed.


They could have offered nothing. It's my understanding they are renting the property to the city for $1 a month rent. Stop being cynical poops not everything has to be a drama.

had to throw in the poop word, how can we have a thread about Hamilton Park, dogs and leashes without "poop"?


FYI: I wasn't talking about the temporary "park"( which benefits Silverman too because his tenants are a pre-K school which is attractive to prospective tenants with kids). I was talking about the HP renovation for which the city is paying 50% of the bill. If he is so generous he should build some parks in the ghetto far from his properties. Something tells me that won't happen. I am not against the renovation but people should really stop pretending that isn't strictly a "business" decision. Also, the city should get a real Parks Dept. One that can actually repair, maintain and diagnose problems with trees, plants etc. Our current Parks Dept. employees are glorified garbagemen. Maintaining the Parks properly will save money in the long run.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 20:54
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Vigilante wrote:
Your tax dollars are being used to help Silverman Developers sell condos. Stop falling all over yourselves to kiss the guy's ass. In the end he will get a new park to serve as a selling point for his business. How stupid can you be?


Agreed.


They could have offered nothing. It's my understanding they are renting the property to the city for $1 a month rent. Stop being cynical poops not everything has to be a drama.

had to throw in the poop word, how can we have a thread about Hamilton Park, dogs and leashes without "poop"?

Posted on: 2009/4/25 15:17
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Your tax dollars are being used to help Silverman Developers sell condos. Stop falling all over yourselves to kiss the guy's ass. In the end he will get a new park to serve as a selling point for his business. How stupid can you be?


Agreed.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 14:22
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Actually, as a dog(s) owner who usually just lurks on this list, I'm glad to see such a reasoned response. I would like a safe clean place to run my dogs so they can burn off all the energy they have. I love the fact the socialization makes my pooches more pleasant on leash as they walk down city streets.

I'd like to be taken seriously as a taxpayer, and provide a place for me to run my pups. I don't hate kids, and I want someone to care about my vote. And respect the considerable amount of money I spend both in taxes and throughout downtown.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 14:04
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Update
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Thank you Amy for keeping an open mind. You are right that a lot in JC don't. I agree with you about the value of walking one's dog, and I too believe that animals should be kept on leash in public spaces.

Dogs are like children in the way that they have a lot of energy to burn, energy that can't be burnt simply by a long walk. They are also social pack animals that need a chance to freely relate to one another. That is why dog runs are an all-around good idea. They really are a win-win. A win for the animal that gets what it needs, a win for the owner who can take proper care of their animals, and a win for non-owners who are not tripping over other people's animals because they have nowhere else to go. I think it is worth noting that some of the strongest opponents of the VVP run when it was first proposed are now its' most vocal supporters.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 13:14
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Okay, then go ahead and petition for the dog run. I'll be the first to admit that there's a lot I don't know. I wasn't here when VVP was being renovated. I was told (or at least I think I was told) that the developer was paying for the temporary park because he doesn't want to build on that land in this economy and because he has an interest in appeasing the area residents. But that was not accurate info. I still have a lot of resentment toward the dog owners who allow their dogs to run loose in the park without regard for anyone but themselves, but I recognize that not all dog owners do that. I still think that a dog run is not a right and that people are perfectly capable of walking their dogs on the sidewalk, but I also know that even if the residents were asked to please not overcrowd VVP dog run (by putting up a sign designating a maximum number of dogs in the run at a time), they wouldn't listen because JC residents have a history of putting their own interests before others'--at least as evidenced by some of the behavior on this board. When we have an atmosphere like that, it breeds suspicion and cynicism, and I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 12:20
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Your tax dollars are being used to help Silverman Developers sell condos. Stop falling all over yourselves to kiss the guy's ass. In the end he will get a new park to serve as a selling point for his business. How stupid can you be?


Well since you put it that way, stick it where da sun don't shine!

Posted on: 2009/4/25 12:02
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I'm confused....how do you petition a gracious OFFER made by a non-governmental source? What if you petition the developer and he turns around and rescinds the offer. Do you have a Plan B?


Agreed! My dog agrees too.

A petition with such "demands" feels like the completely wrong approach to make toward your big fancy new neighbor who has already gone above and beyond what most developers would do.

Way to look a gift horse in the mouth.


I would feel as you do if your assumptions were accurate.

The developer is fine with a small space for a dog run. The peitition is to the city. The developer's gracious offer and support for the dog run are not the issues that generated the petition, but the city's refusal to provide a dog run in a space that they will construct for residents.

A dog run is a reasonable request considering that the new park will include two spaces for dogs.


Well since you put it that way it sounds much more reasonable...petition away!!

Posted on: 2009/4/25 11:58
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Update
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WHen VVP was closed the city built a temporary dog run - one significantly larger than what we are requesting now.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 11:46
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Hi everyone.

I usually don't comment on JCList. As this thread demonstrated, people are a little quick to assume each other's motives and behaviors.

As one of the original members of the committee that negotiated for the runs in VVP and HP and one of the sponsors of the petition I'd like to clear a few things up.

A petition for a temporary facility in a park is not looking a gift horse in the mouth. If without that petition you are not able to use the park as you always have - as a place to walk your dog, then what exactly is the gift?

The concept that we are also being accommodated is false. Enos Park is not an accommodation. We could walk our dogs on that lawn now, but we do not. Why? The freight train noise is painful to the dogs, the various leagues that play there make it too crowded and noisy even when a train is not going by, and at night it is frankly not safe enough.

So what is it we are asking for? Simply put, we are asking to be allowed to share with our neighbors something meant for the whole neighborhood, and paid for by our tax dollars as much as anyone else's ( the city is footing the bill). We are asking to not be a burden on the next door neighborhood, Van Vorst Park, as their run is already small and just meets their needs. We do not want to overrun it. We are asking to be included with our neighbors in HP, not segregated from them.

What are we not doing? We are not asking for anything more than what we have now with the tennis court - a temporary place to take our dogs off-leash in a secure environment. We are not making demands of the developer. We have spoken with the developer and they have no problem with this, but it is the city's plan - not the developers. We are not kicking and screaming for an entitlement, we are petitioning our government based on our grievance - a time honored way of doing things in this country.

In the end we, a rather large number of your neighbors, are just asking to be included. What is the possible harm in that?

Posted on: 2009/4/25 11:45
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I don't think anyone here failed to realize that the developer has an interest in getting the park renovated. But the people who repeatedly break the law by having their dogs running around the park loose are now complaining because they're going to lose the ability to do that for a while. I understand that it's nice to give dogs a chance to run, but try walking your dog for a while. It's kind of nice. As for VVP getting overcrowded, well, I wasn't here when VVP was being renovated. What did VVP dog owners do when the park was closed? Was it a big disaster? I'm asking that seriously.I guess I figure I'd rather ask the dog owners to find an alternative rather than pour more tax money (and throw more complications into this) into this by putting in a small dog temporary run that most people won't find adequate for exercise anyway.

Anyway, I hope someone can reply without resorting to namecalling and we can have an intelligent adult discussion where people actually remember that at some point in life, we learned that using manners is a part of growing up.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 11:30
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Your tax dollars are being used to help Silverman Developers sell condos. Stop falling all over yourselves to kiss the guy's ass. In the end he will get a new park to serve as a selling point for his business. How stupid can you be?

Posted on: 2009/4/25 4:19
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jaah37 wrote:
I'm confused....how do you petition a gracious OFFER made by a non-governmental source? What if you petition the developer and he turns around and rescinds the offer. Do you have a Plan B?


Agreed! My dog agrees too.

A petition with such "demands" feels like the completely wrong approach to make toward your big fancy new neighbor who has already gone above and beyond what most developers would do.

Way to look a gift horse in the mouth.


I would feel as you do if your assumptions were accurate.

The developer is fine with a small space for a dog run. The peitition is to the city. The developer's gracious offer and support for the dog run are not the issues that generated the petition, but the city's refusal to provide a dog run in a space that they will construct for residents.

A dog run is a reasonable request considering that the new park will include two spaces for dogs.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 2:55
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I am really reluctant to jump into this firestorm but there are many distortions in the above posts to this issue.

First of all, even though it is very generous of the developer to provide part his property for a temporary park, the City of JC is picking up the expense of its development, not the developer. Why would the city only consider the use of this temporary park for a playground, when HP has always included dogs and their owners? The renovation of Hamilton Park includes two dog runs, why shouldn?t the temporary one, especially when the developer has no objection to it (this is first hand), become an issue.

From a personal perspective, my concern is, if a space is not provided for dog owners and their pets in the temporary park, Van Vosrt Park will be overwhelmed in its modest dog run, creating safety problems and a disruption to a fairly well regulated adherence to the rules of the park.

Asking the city to provide a small corridor within a 14,000 sq. ft. area for a dog run, is in my slightly biased opinion, not unreasonable.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 1:49
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Guys, a petition is just a request for a change. i am not saying that i am for it, nor am i saying that i am against it, but freedom in this great country of ours gives us the right to request change from our govt officials or non govt officials. Obviously there are people that feel the need for this and have decided to go for it.... Freedom is wonderfull!!!!!

Posted on: 2009/4/25 0:53
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Yay! Well said! Clearly these cry babies would rather have sidewalks that look like land mines went off on them, ripped up grass from dogs off the leash, tennis courts that are so busted up, most recently from a dead tree struck by lightning last year and crushed the fence. If these people would just let the developer do their job they will have a stellar park in a few months. Not one but two dog runs, nice side walks that you can push a stroller over, a great playground and possibly grass!

Now the developer is pacifying these complainers with a temporary park and that's not even good enough. GET A LIFE and SHOVE YOUR PETITION.


OUCH... I just want trash cans to throw my dog shit in....

Posted on: 2009/4/25 0:47
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Update
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Yay! Well said! Clearly these cry babies would rather have sidewalks that look like land mines went off on them, ripped up grass from dogs off the leash, tennis courts that are so busted up, most recently from a dead tree struck by lightning last year and crushed the fence. If these people would just let the developer do their job they will have a stellar park in a few months. Not one but two dog runs, nice side walks that you can push a stroller over, a great playground and possibly grass!

Now the developer is pacifying these complainers with a temporary park and that's not even good enough. GET A LIFE and SHOVE YOUR PETITION.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 0:41
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