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Re: Embankment- Update Thread
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The city has chosen to hold its line which will be a problem for it during the Appeal when the Court will most likely approve the Demolition permit just as it approved the Site Plan. Compromise might have been achieved while inside the City's forums - HPC and ZBA. I look forward to Gallipoli showing no mercy to the City's foolery when he awards Steve for not backing down.
Posted on: 2009/8/23 13:09
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Posted on: 2009/8/22 19:31
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Re: Hyman touts another victory in struggle over Sixth Street
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HFS. He is either totally insane or a genius. McMansions, in the middle of a city? Sounds like a sick art project gone horribly awry.
Posted on: 2009/8/19 3:11
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Hyman touts another victory in struggle over Sixth Street
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 A rendering of developer Steve Hyman's plan to put two multi-million dollar houses on each block of the Sixth Street Embankment in Jersey City. ======================================= Hyman touts another victory in struggle over Sixth Street Embankment, but Jersey City attorney disagrees by Amy Sara Clark / The Jersey Journal Tuesday August 18, 2009, 4:59 PM Developer Steve Hyman is touting another court victory in the continuing saga of the fate of Jersey City's Sixth Street Embankment, but an attorney for Jersey City called the win minor. Essentially, Jersey City lost their appeal of Hyman's appeal, which means the city will have to take its case to the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. Hyman and Jersey City have been struggling over the 6.5-acre railroad embankment stretching from Marin Boulevard to Brunswick Street since Hyman's wife bought the land from Conrail in 2005 for $3 million. The Embankment Preservation Coalition wants to preserve the land as open space, Mayor Jerramiah T. Healy wants a combination of open space and a Light Rail link, and Hyman wants to build housing on the site. Amy Sara Clark / The Jersey JournalDeveloper Steve Hyman asks the Jersey City City Council to drop the fight for the Sixth Street Embankment at a council meeting on July 15, 2009. On Friday the U.S. Court of Appeals said no. The city filed a lawsuit arguing that Conrail never property "abandoned" the site and under federal law should have offered the site to Jersey City before selling it to Hyman. In 2007 the Surface Transportation Board, or STB, agreed. But Hyman appealed the ruling to the U.S. Court of Appeals, which threw out the STB's decision by saying that the board never had the jurisdiction to hear the case in the first place. The court said that the proper venue for the case would be the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, but before bringing their case to that court, Jersey City essentially asked the U.S. Court of Appeals to reconsider its decision. Charles Montange, an attorney representing the city, said the appeal of the appeal was a routine step that he never expected to win. Stephen Gucciardo, president of the Sixth Street Embankment Preservation Coalition, agreed. "It's very rare that they would ever reconsider (a decision). We knew this would be the case," said Gucciardo. "We don't see this as anything particularly important." Montange said he plans to bring the case to the U.S. District Court, which, he said, should come to the same decision as the STB. "I think it should be a slam dunk," he said. But Hyman attorney Fritz Kahn disagreed, saying he doesn't believe Jersey City has the legal standing to bring that case to District Court. "I think this leaves Jersey City and Mr. Montangue with no remedy. I think they're through," he said. Montange called that claim baseless and just another tactic to run up Jersey City's legal bills. "His strategy is to drive up the cost of the city until the city breaks," he said.
Posted on: 2009/8/19 1:38
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I guess what I'm really getting at is if everyone wished there was a commuter service 5 minutes outside their door for convenience...well, then our neighborhood would be completely different. I still stand by under 15 is a great selling point and would be deemed convenient by many.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 18:30
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Agreed, the Grove station is a nicer walk (through somewhat longer for me than Newport), but I don't like the idea of walking to a station that is farther away from my destination. I think my distance to the PATH is acceptable "access" but not "close access." To me, if the walk takes longer than the train ride, the station is not close. I could also walk from the Beacon to JSQ in about 13 minutes, but few people seem to believe that the Beacon has "close access" to the PATH.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 18:18
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I live by the river.
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Try Grove Street PATH, safer walk and same distance. 13 minutes is a GREAT proximity and I challenge anyone to insist that isn't close access! It's under 15 minutes. How close do you want everyone to be? Yes it does take me 8 minutes. Yes I am a fast walker.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 18:04
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You must be a very fast walker. For me it is 13 minute walk to the Newport PATH and that involves risking my life crossing Marin, the creepiness of walking through a parking garage and a journey through a shopping mall that I hate. I don't consider that close access.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 17:45
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I live by the river.
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I have been reading. My comment was meant to highlight my own lack of imagination, not to question your motives. Still, I think the charms of the embankment are not immediately apparent to all. What about the remaining embankment north of 10th St?
Posted on: 2009/8/18 17:38
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I missed this when you first posted it. When one PATH line goes down, without a redundancies, the other PATH line can't accommodate all the passengers. A connection between Hoboken and Journal Square or Journal Square and Secaucus would have eased the crowds. Likewise, 5 days later when the WTC line was knocked out, the system could have been a supplement to getting trips originating in Jersey City to Newark via Secaucus. But, yeah, I guess the PATH has service interruptions so infrequently that there shouldn't be a redundant system.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 15:54
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I would like to thank all the folks on Embankment Preservation. You are selfless citizens who have endured 10 years of the fight. I hope everyone understands your dedication and tenacity. The hours spent for many are equivalent to a full-time job.
Destroying this edifice would be a disaster. This is testament to our history. Let's follow the example of Morris Pesin and Owen Grundy et al... our forefathers who led by example. Let's face it folks the developers would destroy the Eiffel Tower. We have plenty of new, classless structures on the waterfront. To all the nay-sayers.....What have you done for your community, lately? Please attend the meeting tonight.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 14:24
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No "close access" to light rail or PATH? I walk 8 minutes to the PATH and I live in Hamilton Square Park. I'd hate to think we always require something right under our noses to consider it close access.
Posted on: 2009/8/18 13:20
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Bogart, if you ever visited embankment.org, read any of the salient info respective to the "historic preservation" of the Embankment itself, the Rick James Nomination of the Embankment to the State and National Registers of Historic places, for instance: " This nomination was reviewed and approved by the State Review Board for Historic Places, the Jersey City Historic Preservation Commission, the Jersey City Planning Board, the Jersey City Council, and Mayor Glenn L. Cunningham. The Embankment was listed on the State Register of Historic Places in 1999, is eligible for listing on the National Register, and was declared a Municipal Landmark in January 2003." The EPC and the volunteer members, supporters and the citizenry of Jersey City, throughout all it's various neighborhoods and wards. have led the effort to save the Embankment, first as a historical structure and landmark, and to preserve the open space for a park that would connect to the East Coast Greenway, a 2600-mile National Millennium Trail extending from Florida to Maine. If you take the time to read the info on achievements of the EPC you would know that preservation of the Embankment was never a "legal hook to block development", but as you now realize a "sincere concern about saving the structures themselves." I hope you join us this Tuesday evening, Aug 18th, at 6PM in Council Chambers, 2nd Floor of City Hall for the next attempt in Conrail & their partner, Hyman's appeal of the Historic Preservation Commisson's ruling unanimously against "Conrail and its developer partner denying them permits to demolish the Harsimus Branch Embankment. The appeals are being made to the Zoning Board of Adjustment."
Posted on: 2009/8/18 6:05
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Re: Embankment- Update Thread
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What a fascinating and complex situation. I had come to view resistance to development as a sensible effort by the community to take any opportunity to preserve open space downtown, with the talk of "historic preservation" of the embankment more of a legal hook to block development than a sincere concern about saving the structures themselves. Now, with the success of the High Line Park in Manhattan, I see that there actually is a potential value in preserving the structures.
Still--I wonder how many people opposing development would trade the structure in a heartbeat for a street level public park. I find the focus on the ultimate destination of a light-rail extension to be somewhat strange since the value of the light-rail seems to me to be more about where it stops along the way rather than where it terminates. When I lived along its existing route I rarely rode to a terminus, but went from point to point along the route. Providing access from one part of JC to others promotes the city as an end in itself. Now, I'm in Hamilton Park which has no close access to either the light rail or the PATH and it seems to me a light rail along 6th would be very useful to me. The success of those annoying private jitneys proves there is a demand for light rail service between the Heights and Newport. But as a driver a one-way 6th St makes no sense since there is no other eastbound route to Washington between 18th St. and 1st St.
Posted on: 2009/8/17 19:42
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I live by the river.
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Posted on: 2009/8/16 7:36
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Re: Embankment- Update Thread
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So ianmac, then you'd just have swum across the Hudson to get the light rail along the embankment? To go where? Kennedy Boulevard and St. John's apartments? Valhalla? Port au Prince?
Or if you lived in Newport or Paulus Hook the swim could have been directly home. Saves the aerobic workout at the gym. Yes, such a good use for the light rail...as a standby for 2% of the PATH riders who HAPPEN to get stranded at Bed Bath and Beyond once ever 15 years! Brilliant! Where were you stranded exactly? A little note to Alan...you talked on the Liberty Park memorial thread about the ugliness of the wall. How about the same consistent and GOOD thought about the Embankment...the ugliest wall second only to the monstrosity built next to Target to carry the light rail. WALLS dividing cities make for ugly cities...always have, always will. Walls AROUND cities are another item...but that;s a Reanaissance discussion. But stupid architects, greedy developers. and civil servants who couldn't solve a Rubics cube with 2 blocks fall for the ugly walls dividing neighborhoods over and over again. The REAL morons are those who, after they have proven the walls USELESS, cry to preserve them for no other reason than they are THERE! "The HISTORY of UGLINESS" For a study of ugly horrific walls read up on the BQE...the Robert Moses nightmare that destroyed whole neighborhoods with an ugly wall. So, alan, if you hate a wall in Liberty Park be consistent and hate a wall running through the heart of the newly nicest part of the city. Running a choo-choo next to it won't make it any more aceptable than running a choo-choo along the wall in Liberty Park.
Posted on: 2009/7/24 17:38
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If there was any question a redundancy transit system to Journal Square was necessary, this evenings early rush hour 33rd Street service should have been enough to convince anyone.
Posted on: 2009/7/24 6:57
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Xerxes wrote: 2. I have NOT shoehorned the light rail option onto the Embankment thread, YOU DID. Your reasoning was basically since we must keep the Embankment, why not run a light rail track alongside it? I have NEVER heard a less sensible reason for building a light rail line. What would the trolley do? Get half the people off PATH...not bloody likely. Silly twaddle like this is EXACTLY why the Embankment should be torn down. There is no sane reason to keep it. The argument seems to go: GIVEN, that the Embankment MUST be kept at all costs, What is the least stupid justification for it?
Posted on: 2009/7/20 14:14
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You obviously don't know anything about mass transit. The half mile mark is the sweet spot for the acceptable distance a population should be from mass transit. Not 1 mile. Not 5 miles. But half a mile. Its not a coincidence the NJ Transit Village Initiative, which many parts of the downtown qualify for, requires the district to be within a 1/2 mile radius of mass transit. So you may not think the difference of a half mile matters in 60-odd square miles of Hudson County, but you would simply be wrong. The NJ DOT seems to agree. In their study of the Bergen Arches, the light rail options "had fairly high scores, and appear to meet the objectives of the study" with a connection between the Meadowlands and Newport Center having "the highest overall score amongst the transit alternatives."
Posted on: 2009/7/20 13:52
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Have you ever ridden the PATH to Journal Square at rush hour? There might be fewer people on the PATH because its a smaller train, but its just as crowded. Yes I have and let me assure you the addition of a parallel trolley willl add NOTHING to the situation except for additional time and expense. Are people coming from New Yoirk going to get off at Pavonia and climb out of the ststion, stoll to the light rail, pay another fare and wait for a slow train? Quote: Also, as I clarified for you, a route through the arches does not go to Journal Square; the Bergen Arches is a half mile from Journal Square And as I will clarify for you, Hudson Country is 60-odd square miles and thus a half mile difference is essentially no difference at all. Quote: And you want to TEAR DOWN the Embankment at all costs because it's UGLY and BLIGHT. And here you shoehorn a discussion about the viability of public transit alongside/ atop it into your proof that it should come down 1. No, not at all costs, but rather becasue it is perhaps the CHEAPEST alternativeAND ugly and a Blight and useless for any purpose except a Conrail line thorough a slum. 2. I have NOT shoehorned the light rail option onto the Embankment thread, YOU DID. Your reasoning was basically since we must keep the Embankment, why not run a light rail track alongside it? I have NEVER heard a less sensible reason for building a light rail line.
Posted on: 2009/7/20 13:24
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NJ Transit's priorities are the same as the governor's; the agency is not going to do anything without the approval of the state house. At present, the current governor cares more about the state he lives in, New York, than the state he represents, so a coherent mass transit plan from Trenton is practically impossible. Christie won't be any better. What we really need is better represenation in the legislature. Weinberg has alienated every other legislator in Bergen County. Bolden-Cunningham is too worried about enriching herself. Stack is too worried about Stack. Hudson county needs some old fashioned machine politics to get the gears paying out to the county.
Posted on: 2009/7/20 4:52
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This may affect the question of Light Rail use.
http://www.njtransit.com/tm/tm_servle ... eTo&PRESS_RELEASE_ID=2533 NJ Transit has, after a lot of wavering, committed to extending the Light Rail along the Northern Branch, which will take the line from Tonnelle Avenue in North Bergen to Tenafly. For all the talk of the Embankment as light rail, NJ Transit has never expressed interest in the discussed route. It has it's merits, but it just isn't a priority for NJT, and the decision to build the Northern Branch as a LRT extension just underlines that.
Posted on: 2009/7/20 1:12
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One of my neighbors actually talked to Hyman the other day - he rides up and down 6th on a regular basis in his Bentley.
As we all know, he bought the Embankment for $3mm - he has spent $7.5mm to date in legal fees on it - yikes. He said he is out to make a profit and not giving up on the $20mm he wants for it. Looks like Hyman is going to be a tough one to break.
Posted on: 2009/7/15 18:10
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Yes, I have. Have you ever ridden the PATH to Journal Square at rush hour? There might be fewer people on the PATH because its a smaller train, but its just as crowded. Also, as I clarified for you, a route through the arches does not go to Journal Square; the Bergen Arches is a half mile from Journal Square, or roughly the same distance between Union Square and 7th Avenue. You would no more say a light rail Station at the arches goes to Journal Square then you would say the 1,2,3 at 7th Avenue goes to Union Square at Broadway.
Posted on: 2009/7/15 13:28
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And you want to TEAR DOWN the Embankment at all costs because it's UGLY and BLIGHT. And here you shoehorn a discussion about the viability of public transit alongside/ atop it into your proof that it should come down. We are talking about alternatives, but you simply don't want to talk about alternatives, though you said you'd consider them.
This, by the way, is the same position you take on the Powerhouse: tear it down, because there are no alternatives. And you are still wrong. Ok. As to the substantive stuff. A light rail through 6th and the Heights, Secaucus, and even Lyndhurst takes people out of their cars because it gives them options. Yea, it will also reduce the burden on the PATH, but to me that's a secondary concern. As to Greenville: perhaps the West Side Avenue line could be extended. I'm not sure how or where, but if it served that population well then itshould be considered. Lastly, the light rail is no trolley and it's not slow. It's much more pleasant than the PATH and zooms along pretty quickly. Without having to cut tunnels, the infrastructure costs on the front end should be lower than new subways. But, wages and costs are higher in adjusted dollars so new projects can be expensive. You make a good point which I'd hope the region could agree on: there should be a region pass, or a business merger, for the convenience of passengers. But, getting the interstate Port Authority to the table with NJ Transit and MTA presents huge political hurdles.
Posted on: 2009/7/15 12:45
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Sure,
Why not shut down ALL public transportation except for 14 lines to get from Newport to Journal Square...maybe 20 if there's anything left in the Stae budget? Yep, Second Avenue subway in MANHATTAN is somehow comparable to a light rail extension along the Embankment. Yeah, really good comparison. A slow "trolley" to Journal Square compared with a 17 BILLION dollar rapid underground transit line in the largest city in the United States...Jesus. Have you ever RIDDEN the Lexington line at rush hour...getting half the people off that train would be a godsend in societal benefits.Quote: On any given weekday, the Lex carries 1.5 million passengers, more daily riders than the metro systems in Washington, D.C., Boston, and Chicago?combined. What would the trolley do? Get half the people off PATH...not bloody likely. Silly twaddle like this is EXACTLY why the Embankment should be torn down. There is no sane reason to keep it. The argument seems to go: GIVEN, that the Embankment MUST be kept at all costs, What is the least stupid justification for it?
Posted on: 2009/7/15 11:39
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Have you heard of network externalities. A potential line along the embankment would enhance the system for most by making it more accessible to many more people and getting many of those people out of their cars.
Posted on: 2009/7/14 16:15
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Also, this logic is akin to saying the Second Avenue subway line is silly because the 4-5-6, 2-3, and A-C-E, already run North to south through Manhattan.
Posted on: 2009/7/14 14:24
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The light rail ran along the top of the Embankment, it would have a dedicated right of way from Marin Blvd, through the arches, and under 1&9. If it continued out to Secaucus, it would be built in what is more or less empty swamp land, and if it were extended out to Kearny, built over an existing right of way. As far as the cost, the HBLR is the most expensive project undertaken by NJ Transit simply because NJ Transit had never built a train line before (the exception being the Camden Light rail, which largely was built concurrently with HBLR, but ran over existing freight tracks). NJ Transit took over an existing rail network in 1979-- a 100+ years after most of their track miles were built by private industry. Imagine the cost of building from scratch the Northeast Corridor today-- it would be exponentially greater, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't build it. Quote:
The Bergen Arches cut is half a mile north of Journal Square. That means a station built in the Bergen Arches with an exit at JFK Blvd and St. Paul's Ave extends the reach of mass transit a half mile further north, or as far north as Manhattan Avenue, which is just about a mile from Journal Square. There have been two proposes on the destination of the light rail: one by Healy and one by Hyman. Healy proposed extending the light rail through the arches, as I have mentioned here. Hyman proposed the alternate of extending it Journal Square as a consolation to win over the heart of the mayor. In either case, don't confuse JOURNAL SQUARE with the BERGEN ARCHES. Quote:
The PATH does not go to Secaucus. While it does go to Newark, getting to Broad Street Station requires an extra transfer to the Newark subway or walking through downtown Newark. Second, New Jersey transit connections to Secaucus are spotty at best. There are large blocks of time on weekends in the middle of the day where trains simply do not run between Hoboken and Secaucus. More over, once the Trans Hudson tunnel is completed, many fewer trains will connect between Hoboken and Secaucus as they will instead be routed directly to New York. As to the spending money in Hudson County vs. elsewhere in the state-- thats for the state legislators to squabble over. Quote:
Light rail in these parts would be a fail because light rail "messes with traffic something awful". What really needs to happen is a north-south subway system connecting Bayonne to Fort Lee and then traveling over the George Washington into New York, but such a plan would be far too successful for the elected officials in either state to think it up.
Posted on: 2009/7/14 14:01
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Those options are definitely food for thought. THey deserve close examination which I'll do. But remember, light rail is hideouslky expensive and unless run in the boonies it messes with traffic something awful, so it's one thing to talk about building it though Liberty Park and the bushlands of Bayonne and up along the Palisades but another to consider running it around the heights. Remember, even as it IS, it was the most expensive thing Jersey Transit EVER did.
Second consideration is you do NOT want to duplicate other lines, thus a run to St. Pauls and Kennedy is silly because the PATH is faster, cheaper and goes to within a very short walk of the same place. Running light rail between Hoboken or Journal Square to Secaucus Juunction is equally a bad idea because New Jersy Transit and PATH have that route covered. Remember that after spending BILLIONS on Hudson County it will be hard for them to spend another dime here...nor would it be fair to the rest of the state with miles and miles between train stops. The parts of the city that REALLY needs to be tied into light rail, if anyone does, is Southwestern Jersey City, Western Bayonne, Kearney. And what of Union City, North Bergen, West New York...fine for those living in the forties, not so fine for someone at 70th and Bergenline. And again, those areas don't have the rambling waves of grain just awaiting train tracks...the logistics are nightmarish. Ideally EVERY person on the planet should be within a couple blocks of easy transportation. But then, it might just be easier for man to learn to flap his wings and fly. New York did a wonderful job of combining all its transportation (except cabs for the rich who need to travel without seeing the poor) into one system with a monthly pass. If Jersey City, Hoboken and Bayonne did something similar with easy buses or jitneys to PATH and the light rail already in place, it would be much more reasonable than snaking UNAFFORDABLE light rail systems all over the towns and forcing commuters to pay for a bus, then pay for light rail and then pay for PATH and then pay for a subway...or else grind along in a car for the few miles involved. Remember, it is always easy for someone to want the ideal system for THEM, as in a person living on Boulevbard East and 80th street dreaming of a wonderful billion dollar bridge connecting the Galaxy Apartments to Times Square.
Posted on: 2009/7/14 12:20
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