Register now !    Login  
Main Menu
Who's Online
59 user(s) are online (50 user(s) are browsing Message Forum)

Members: 2
Guests: 57

yorkster, dr_nick_riviera, more...


Forum Index


Board index » All Posts (light12v)




Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#31
Home away from home
Home away from home



Posted on: 2018/5/13 2:50
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#32
Home away from home
Home away from home


FULOP>>>>Bringing JC TaxPayers MORE LAWSUITS to Pay 4
JOY

https://www.documentcloud.org/document ... aty-monument-lawsuit.html

Posted on: 2018/5/12 21:43
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#33
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

HeightsNative wrote:
Yay!! More shady backroom deals made without our city council! All hail the god-king xer...I mean Fulop!


Fulop In His Own Words::: such a Class Act in representing :::
https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992130974698934272
https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992158375361351680

Posted on: 2018/5/12 21:39
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#34
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

JPhurst wrote:
Another sculpture by Pitynski, "The Partisans" was moved from its original location in Boston and rededicated. I don't see why this would be any different.


It Is Completely Different......the Katyn Monument was further dedicated to the 9-11 Massacre of WTC Twin Towers based upon its current location & needs to stay where it is !!!

Posted on: 2018/5/11 20:11
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#35
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
I liked the idea of the tip of Morris Canal Park though. That's a dramatic setting for a dramatic statue.

.


Tip of Morris Canal Park makes too much sense for it to happen.

If Fulop played it right, approached the community in the right way, explained the rationale, I bet the move to that location would have been accepted. Not to the fuking median and not because I told you so, and certainly not because Poles are anti-semites or whatever slur he used.

He handled it in the worst possible way.

His conduct does not give me any confidence in Senator Fulop or whatever political office he will be aspiring to.

Boss Daddy Fulop and his cohorts is what Needs to GO !!

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/05/0 ... al-statue-in-jersey-city/

Posted on: 2018/5/9 14:17
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#36
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

HeightsNative wrote:
Quote:

HCResident wrote:
If I?m correct, it?s being moved to the corner of Washington and Montgomery. That?s two and a half blocks away.

All this brouhaha over two and a half blocks?

Oh, just for the record, I think it?s ugly. I used to live in Paulus Hook. I moved there in 2000. I thought it was ugly then, as I do now. It is not a welcoming image to the city.

And...my grandmother was the first child of her Polish born parents to be born on American soil. You can disagree with my opinion, but do not mistaken it for an anti Polish sentiment.


To be fair, the debate over aesthetics is subjective and everyone will feel what they feel.

What is not up for debate is Fulops handling of the situation. No community input or discussion, and outright bigotry on Twitter in the style of Trump. It's disgusting and he is disgusting.


AGREE +++

Posted on: 2018/5/9 7:06
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#37
Home away from home
Home away from home


U P D A T E

Boggiano interviewed at beginning & Actual Press Conference start @14:46 time marker

https://www.facebook.com/MyMinute/videos/2089063394457132/

Posted on: 2018/5/8 19:47
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#38
Home away from home
Home away from home


2 more Lawsuits for JC taxes to defend, brought to you by Mayor Fulop's Outrageous & Insulting Behavior !

......https://www.facebook.com/pg/MyMinute/videos/?ref=page_internal [starts at 14:46 marker]

Posted on: 2018/5/8 17:39
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#39
Home away from home
Home away from home


Follow this page for live stream of Y&B press conference @ noon in city hall council chambers::::
https://www.facebook.com/MyMinute/

Posted on: 2018/5/8 16:01
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#40
Home away from home
Home away from home


Press conference @ City Hall Council Chambers TODAY at NOON

Posted on: 2018/5/8 14:44
 Top 


Re: Architect for measuring floorplans
#41
Home away from home
Home away from home


YOU MIGHT BE BETTER SERVED BY CONTACTING A LOCAL SCHOOL OF ARCHITECTURE & GETTING AN INTERN FROM THEM FOR THIS

Posted on: 2018/5/7 21:30
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#42
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

Showtime wrote:
Quote:
light12v wrote:According to The One to be OBEYED


Did you mean Mack Cali?



NO.
'86 ordinance to original location was voted by JC city council.

'89 resolution to relocate to its present location was voted by JC city council.

NOW this Move, desired by a Fulop friendly Developer, is all of a sudden Mandated by Executive Tweet ??

https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992762417036890114


Posted on: 2018/5/7 3:24
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#43
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

TheBigGuy wrote:
Curious is the Mayor ever had this similar hardline view when he represented Ward E?


Quote:

light12v wrote:
In Light of the following Fulop Tweet, why is OP taking a Survey of JC Citizens.....
According to The One to be OBEYED, it is DONE :::

https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992762417036890114


Not that I can recall, NEVER, as HE was Playing Reformer Councilman.
BUT Things Changed with his first term victory as Mayor.....wherein he HALTED THE WIP 90% COMPLETE REVAL before BEING SWORN IN & NOW WE ALL KNOW HOW THAT HAS PLAYED OUT !

Remember too, that the previous Ward E Councilperson under his 1st term as Boy King Mayor was HIS,,, a Team Fulop RubberStamp.....

James Solomon is Independent, so he is not Looped-In to any closed door Op's/Deals made between JC Corpoation Counsel, at Fulop's command, & opposing Attorneys.

Posted on: 2018/5/6 4:13
 Top 


Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#44
Home away from home
Home away from home


In Light of the following Fulop Tweet, why is OP taking a Survey of JC Citizens.....
According to The One to be OBEYED, it is DONE :::

https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992762417036890114

Posted on: 2018/5/5 23:28
 Top 


Re: Bloomberg: Collapse of Public Pensions
#45
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

MDM wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
perhaps the state should use a part of super high taxes on legal marijuana to reduce its unfunded pension liability.


If taxes reach confiscatory levels, users will just buy via the black market. This has already happened with cigarettes.

It's too late for the pension plans. The time to fix it was 20+ years ago. Sweeney, to his credit, has been trying to get the state to fix the issue clear back in 2005. I think he even hinted at moving new state employees to a 401k type defined contribution plan. The unions took him to the woodshed over that proposal.

Spot On !
It is inevitable. I don't want to be here to bear witness to the Implosion.

Posted on: 2018/5/1 22:20
 Top 


Re: Washing a car in your driveway?
#46
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

Azul_the_Cat wrote:
I saw that PDF in my searching. Looks like they frown on it, but it's not illegal to do it.

PLEEZ do not give 'Mayor w/ Mandate' any ideas for Municipal Ordinances to make it Illegal so that the city can continue its attack of Ticket Blitzes against its constituents to generate Revenue like 24/7 Parking Tickets, or my personal fave, Illegally Stored Garbage !!!

Posted on: 2018/5/1 19:59
 Top 


Re: The Disaster that is Jersey City Recreation
#47
Home away from home
Home away from home


A MORE FITTING THREAD TITLE SHOULD LOSE THE WORD RECREATION....& read:
Re: The Disaster that is Jersey City

Posted on: 2018/4/30 18:30
 Top 


Re: Kushner in New Jersey unraveling
#48
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
I would not be surprised if Kushner were 100% correct. It would look bad on Fulop's Democratic resume going forward that he struck a deal with Kushner. In these Twitter-driven times it could be a kiss of death.


Nothing is ever 100% in this blame game banter, but one need look no further than a Key Rat in this Deal's sudden departure from his lucrative JCRA position, the complete disarray of City Hall Operations with emphasis on JC Planning, Zoning & Building Departments & Wildcard Fulop's Pre&Post election Manipulations [check his E.O. writings to date] to see the big picture of why JC has turned Toxic for Investors.

Bracketed Mis-Representational Photo Ops, Theatrics, Unqualified Political Hires, Unidirectional Tweeting & Strong Arm Tactics does not serve to substitute for Professionalism & Timely Production.
Fulop, simply stated, doesn't deliver the goods.

Amateur Hour City Hall Operations coupled with the fact that Fulop has seriously pissed off too many to list here, including some powerful players in the political arena leaving his political capital in question is a real deal-breaker IMHO.


Posted on: 2018/4/28 6:31
 Top 


Re: New Amazon HQ
#49
Home away from home
Home away from home


I am surprised that they didn't think to offer the vast south side 4 distribution vehicles to hop onto 78, coupled with a transportation link [Lightrail] to Penn sta.

Amazon could literally be it's own City within the city of Newark!!
[none of the other places that are in the finals could offer that as easily]

Posted on: 2018/4/28 4:32
 Top 


Re: Rec for gas furnace and tankless water heater inspection
#50
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

sparklingwater wrote:
Hi - any good recs for gas furnace and tankless water heater inspection?

Thanks so much.

inspection ? for what purpose ?

Posted on: 2018/4/28 4:11
 Top 


Re: JC Public Schools is short $70 million
#51
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Yes, you can agree to having your taxes raised to cover the difference.

Reval,,,small potatoes.... & So Starts the REAL Fun 4 JC Taxpayers !

Posted on: 2018/3/31 19:39
 Top 


Re: Politicians Want to Start a Bank. What Could Go Wrong?
#52
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:
Stringer wrote:

Politicians Want to Start a Bank. What Could Go Wrong?

New Jersey looks to follow North Dakota’s example, but without the same low-corruption culture.

Some Democrats in Trenton think they’ve found an answer to New Jersey’s problems: a new government-owned bank.

Gov. Phil Murphy, formerly of Goldman Sachs , campaigned last year on the idea of creating a bank owned by the state and its municipalities. “A public bank will allow New Jersey to invest in New Jersey,” Mr. Murphy said. He added that it would “provide capital to communities that, for too long, have been ignored by the financial system, whether they be women-owned businesses, businesses owned by people of color, or small businesses with big ideas.”

At the beginning of this year’s legislative session, two Democratic state senators introduced the State Bank of New Jersey Act to turn Mr. Murphy’s campaign proposals into reality. The new bank would be run by an appointed board, plus the state treasurer. It would be instructed to make its services available to all public entities, and it could enter into real-estate projects using the power of eminent domain. The bank would also be empowered to extend student loans and small-business loans.

For years progressive groups have advocated government-run banks, arguing that they would serve local users better than private banks do. A model often cited is the Bank of North Dakota, the only state-owned bank in the U.S., which was founded nearly a century ago as part of a populist farmers revolt. It has survived as an apparently functional part of the economic landscape in one of the nation’s most conservative states. Another oft-cited example is Germany’s Landesbanken, a group of state-owned regional banks known for midlevel commercial lending and for overseeing local savings banks (Sparkassen) run by municipalities.

As private banks see it, state-owned banks succeed, if they do, because of unfair advantages. They’re exempt from taxes, which may or may not be partly offset by an expectation that they return money to state or municipal treasuries. Public banks can also raise money at the lower interest rates charged to government borrowers, since they’re seen as unlikely to default (and likely to be bailed out if they do).

But you don’t hear as much favorable buzz about the German Landesbanken as you used to, given their recent performance. The Economist reported in 2015 that “this hybrid public-private model, which relied on public largesse in days past, has fared disastrously since the financial crisis.” The promise that politically controlled banks would choose investments on a sound business basis has proved false. “State politicians sit on the supervisory boards, enjoying playing the role of banker, supporting favored projects and soft loans to companies that employ lots of voters,” the magazine noted.

Alert readers might have noticed what Germany and North Dakota have in common: relatively clean, honest political cultures. Germany regularly ranks among the 10 or 20 least corrupt countries in the world (and ahead of the U.S.). Among American states, the measures vary. North Dakota has had more corruption convictions than one might expect, but it still scores well on most outcome-based measures. New Jersey, on the other hand, fares quite poorly.

A 2014 study by the Safra Ethics Center at Harvard ranked state corruption by surveying political reporters covering capital politics. North Dakota was in a small group of states where illegal corruption was perceived as “not at all common.” When it came to “legal” corruption—i.e., the kind that isn’t against the law but is still aromatic—the study found it was only “slightly common” in North Dakota.

On both metrics New Jersey was among the seven states perceived as most corrupt. The Soprano State has provided America with some of its gaudiest and most colorful political double-dealers, with mayors in Atlantic City, Camden, Irvington, Jersey City, Newark, Orange and Trenton all having been convicted over the past generation.

A State Bank of New Jersey would be unlikely to content itself with the predictable and repetitive lending that goes on in an agriculture-and-extraction economy like North Dakota’s. It would inevitably turn into a Favor Bank for politicos hoping to lure subsidized jobs from the more vibrant cities of New York and Philadelphia. Once the initial buzz of idealism passed, it would become a tempting honey pot for the corrupt politicians for which New Jersey is famous.

In that sense, a State Bank of New Jersey really would be sure to create jobs—for prosecutors.

Mr. Olson is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/politicia ... could-go-wrong-1522443732

In a word: E V E R Y T H I N G

Posted on: 2018/3/31 19:30
 Top 


Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
#53
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

T-Bird wrote:
There is some interesting data in the list of assessments:

The larger Crystal Point units (1,590 sf) are assessed at $1,368 per sf. Those units are all assessed the same - regardless of floor.

The larger 77 Hudson units (but not the even larger PH units) are assessed above $1,100 per sf. Those are in the 1,550 sf range. The large PHs - 2,000+ sf are assessed north of $1,500 per sf at $3,100,000+ (!!)

A few of the large 77 Hudson units were assessed at several hundred thousand dollars below prices they had recently sold for (sales that had taken place in 2016 or 2017). One was assessed $478,000 less than what it sold for in early 2016.

In general, the listed assessment seems to be higher (per sf) the larger your unit is - which is counter to what typically happens in the market.

Owners at Crystal Point and 77 Hudson are both on long-term abatements and only pay a few thousand dollars a year for land taxes, so none of this really matters for them any time soon - but if you were looking to make a case against the assessment process, I'd wonder how these conclusions were reached.

INDEED a Good Catch for making a case against the city's Reval Vendor : Appraisal Systems Inc. work-product & the entire premise of market rate appraisal via snapshot in time methods.

The most glaring outrageous thing that I noticed is their reduction of value for a DT Rowhouse that sold for 1.8Million in 2016 to 1.5Million, citing significant Sq. ft. reduction from the connecting homes with identical footprint that are seated under a common cornice !!

Posted on: 2018/2/7 18:20
 Top 


Re: Alternatives for getting to JFK airport from Jersey City Thanks in advance.
#54
Home away from home
Home away from home


I have a friend who travels to Asia several times a year & she takes a bus that departs from Hudson Mall & goes directly to JFK.
I will ask her for more details if you are interested.

Posted on: 2017/11/20 1:55
 Top 


Re: Fulop wins lopsided victory in Jersey City mayor's race
#55
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

K-Lo2 wrote:
Am I right that the approximately the same number of people voted for mayor in 2013 and in 2017? Around 34 - 35,000 in total?


40,695 Voted, but only 35,425 voted for a Mayoral candidate. [12.5% of those actually who came out to the polling places Voted for Neither Mayoral candidate.]

Posted on: 2017/11/8 18:19
 Top 


Re: Symes / Solomon runoff
#56
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

jc_dweller wrote:
We are facing a Symes/Solomon runoff. I think at this time each candidate needs to clarify some of their platforms. I have one major question for each.

1. Symes
A major component of Symes' platform is the empowerment of community groups in the development approval process. State statute (NJSA 45:55) does not grant community groups this power. (NYC does, which admittedly confuses people.)
Jersey City is well aware that this is not permitted, and in fact in the one or two areas of town which suggest this is required (e.g. morris canal) both the City and community groups have acknowledged that they're "getting away with it" until a developer sues. How, then, does Symes intend to use her position to change a state law? Much of her platform has been on this, and I feel that she's making a promise to community groups that she simply has zero control over.

2. Solomon
Solomon has had significant NIMBY undertones throughout his campaign. Notably, as it related to a project on the West Side (which obviously isn't even in Ward E), suggesting that neighbors should have a greater say in how a property is developed. (Relates to Symes, above.) This even hinted at having a choice as to who would move in next door (in this case there was talk of marketing a development to the jewish community which did face some resistance). How does he reconcile this with his claims of being welcoming to all and "progressive"? To what extent is a community entitled to impinge on the as-right development of private property? (Hint: the law already answered that.)


Great Observations & Questions. I'll Wait....

Posted on: 2017/11/8 18:15
 Top 


Re: We The People Deserve the WIN
#57
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

neverleft wrote:
.
?Bill Matsikoudous is the Steak? ?WHAT AM I HUNGRY FOR??

The first thing that popped into my head when I saw the above lines was seeing EX Mayor Healy (The Clone Source) feverishly pouring pepper onto his meal for 2 minutes at the MC Diner in the FBI Operation Bid Rig video. Funny I think it was steak and potatoes. You know the Diner where the FBI had hidden camera?s recording the payoffs, bribes, and deals between Healy city employees and Dwek. The administration that Bill ?The Healy Clone? Matsikoudis was a key player in.

Colonel Healy and his side kick Sergeant Matsikoudis let corruption fester under their noses for who knows how long. It took the FBI to step in and STOP it. This quote from that famous Hogan Hero?s character Sgt. Hans Georg Schultz comes to mind?.?I see NOTHING?, ?I know NOTHING?, ?I hear N-N-N-NOTHING!?

Healy = Matsikoudous Matsikoudous = Healy

Send a loud and clear message today that we don't want The Healy Clone sniffing around in 2021 either.


.


I think everyone here get's your unwavering support for Fulop, despite his true Trac Record as Uber-Narc Mayor, Liar & New Institutional Candidate of the Party Machine.

I would rather see JC Constituents take a chance on Mats, who is no longer bound by Bossism [Healy or the HCDO/JCDO] & has opted to be aligned with Individuals of Honesty + Integrity like Chris Gadsden, Esther Winter, Esmeralda Trinidad & Dr. Michael Winds.

In either instance, whoever prevails at the polls will now know that the People will be watching & recording their every move....so they better do the right thing or they will be subject to being called out and voted out.




Posted on: 2017/11/7 22:34
 Top 


We The People Deserve the WIN
#58
Home away from home
Home away from home


The Only Question That Registered Voters in Jersey City need ask Themselves:
When Hungry, Do I want the Steak or the Sizzle ???
Op-Ed by 20 year JC Resident 11/06/17


Tomorrow is Election Day. You have the unique opportunity to cast Your Vote for a Jersey City Mayor who will either nourish you with Substance or feed you an Illusion.
As a homeowner/stakeholder in this City, I have done my due diligence, stealth research & conducted a case study of both candidates.

My findings are as follows:

Bill Matsikoudous is the Steak

Mr. Matsikoudas offers Us authenticity and a vast knowledge & a professional contact base in all areas of the law, but in particular, Redevelopment Law, which is crucial in the next stages of Jersey City's evolution.

He worked at Wilentz, Goldman & Spitzer, alongside professionals the likes of, Anne S. Babineau who is heralded as ?the go-to person in Redevelopment Law? http://www.wilentz.com/anne-s-babineau .

He has worked with & received glowing reviews from self-realized, multi-faceted professional Donald Scarinci - Lawyer, Writer, Photographer, Numismatist, Audiophile.
And the list goes on...

You might be asking yourself, [as I did], Why Mr. Matsikoudous never brought these highly professional contacts to the foreground of of this campaign.

The Answer is Simple:
He was kinda busy trying to establish the Real Concerns of Jersey City Residents by going Door-to-Door to hear Us, & Inform/Educate Us as to what was really happening in our City.
[It was a monumental Task to accomplish without HC/JC Political Machine funding.]


Steven Fulop is the Sizzle

Mr. Fulop offers Us a lesson in 21st Century Politics BWO Theatrical Production & a Step-by-Step Guide to becoming a Master Illusionist. This is a lesson that all Individuals should heed, as it provides crucial Information for one to Defend Against while navigating & trying to Survive in our modern day society.

He has worked at Goldman Sachs in finance & served as a Posterchild Marine for their Public Relations Bonanza post 9/11.

He was invited into Jersey City political circles, after serving in Iraq, by Mayor Glenn Cunningham to oppose Mr. Menendez's full slate of officially approved candidates, and resoundingly lost. [but he now had an inside look,acquired contacts & quickly became intrigued with a political career in Jersey City, becoming a Reformer Ward E councilman]

He mounted a Grassroots Campaign against the Institutional Candidate Healy & his played-out last gasp of the Party Machine [exploited Healy's Laughingstock status] & Won as a Reformer.

You might be asking yourself, [as I did], Why Mr. Fulop never brought these accomplishments to the foreground of of this campaign.

The Answer is Simple:
He was kinda busy trying to bury his former incarnation as a Reformer, since he had successfully Become the Very Thing that He had Railed Against, enjoying a host of Perks & Privileges that came along with being the New Institutional Candidate for the Party Machine.

As we all witnessed, this required a disciplined Mastery of Illusion, & countless Scripted Theatrical Productions to Control the Narrative and successfully divide our City.
[It was a monumental Task to accomplish without Blow-back]


So when You VOTE tomorrow, Ask Yourself :

Who's Skill Set am I willing to Fund/Live With for the Next 4 Years + Beyond
&
WHAT AM I HUNGRY FOR ?

Posted on: 2017/11/7 5:30
 Top 


Re: He got it, he got it….Mayor Fulop has the endorsement we were all waiting for….
#59
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

neverleft wrote:
Quote:

light12v wrote:

I attended this event. [You might want to view the lengthy unedited video to comprehend the Totality of his utter disrespect and contempt for Jersey City Constituents in this under-served Ward]


Ward F? Isn't the new City Hall Annex opening there in a few days/weeks care of Mayor Fulop?

.


Yeah, Right...... HAHAHAHA [Pick a Link]
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi ... 7048&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrac-lHFDWU&feature=youtu.be

Posted on: 2017/11/5 21:03
 Top 


Re: He got it, he got it….Mayor Fulop has the endorsement we were all waiting for….
#60
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

ctotogo wrote:
He doesn't deny knowledge of the conference in that clip or deny that he was there. He denies knowing about any bus tours and says that Robert Cotter attends whatever conferences he sees fit and doesn't clear/need to clear it with the Mayor and doesn't know what he might have said. The Mayor's timeslot at the conference is different than Cotter's. There's no proof in the clip to support your allegation.


I attended this event. [You might want to view the lengthy unedited video to comprehend the Totality of his utter disrespect and contempt for Jersey City Constituents in this under-served Ward]

Fulop adamantly denied knowledge of bus Tours that he was present at, going so far as to include the following Photo with caption in his own Press Release.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi ... 8650&type=3&theater&ifg=1

This is called *LYING*


Posted on: 2017/11/5 17:50
 Top 



TopTop
« 1 (2) 3 4 5 ... 7 »






Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!



LicenseInformation | AboutUs | PrivacyPolicy | Faq | Contact


JERSEY CITY LIST - News & Reviews - Jersey City, NJ - Copyright 2004 - 2017