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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
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who is bemoaning tax breaks and loopholes? i don't have a problem with tax breaks and loopholes. i said that if congress does not want people to benefit from tax breaks and loopholes that it should eliminate them. a

and, honestly, i don't need you to tell me whether or not i should or should not be distraught over amt. thx

Posted on: 12/20 9:10
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hero69 wrote:
then congress should get rid of the tax breaks and loopholes if it doesn't want people to take advantage of them. tax breaks and loopholes are supposed to be an incentive to do "good" so why are some people penalized for doing "good"


First you were "distraught" because the AMT was kept in place, (even though it was raised to 500K / 1MM...) and now you are bemoaning tax breaks and loopholes, which is precisely what the AMT is supposed to address (by preventing their abuse to skip out on paying a fair share of taxes.)

Here is what I think: I don't think you have a clue what the AMT is, or what it was originally intended to do. You heard something, somewhere about the evil of AMT and ran with it not understanding what it is you are trying to feel distraught about before writing your post.

Tax breaks and loopholes are NOT "supposed to be an incentive to do "good"" as you claim in your post. They are, in essence, a form of social engineering disguised as federal policy. Did you know that back in the 80s, you could deduct credit card interest? You think that's because encouraging people to rack up debt was a net good for them? Today's mortgage interest deduction is there to encourage home ownership, mostly because there is a widely held belief that homeownership is the path to achieve middle class status. That may have been a solid truth in the past, but nowadays you have lots of upper middle class, and even rich people, who do not actually own a home, and instead choose to rent, for a variety of reasons. Of course, homeownership still remains a reliable path to achieve and maintain middle class status, but it is neither foolproof (remember 2007?) nor the only one.

As Dolomiti points out, the point to this latest tax reform was to streamline and reduce the complexity of the current tax system by eliminating many of the existing provisions and quirks. But, of course, it is impossible to please everyone.

Posted on: 12/19 23:28
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hero69 wrote:
then congress should get rid of the tax breaks and loopholes if it doesn't want people to take advantage of them. tax breaks and loopholes are supposed to be an incentive to do "good" so why are some people penalized for doing "good"

Erm... Yes, part of the original plan of this tax reform was to get rid of a bunch of custom tax breaks.

The problem is that every single permutation of the tax code has its own constituency, which rabidly defends its perqs.

Posted on: 12/19 21:58
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tax breaks and loopholes are supposed to be an incentive to do "good"


I think we've identified the source of your problem! Tax breaks and loopholes are mostly pork for contributors. There's a portion that are supposed to create fairness, like SALT, but that has gone down in the partisan bloodbath.

Posted on: 12/19 18:49
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then congress should get rid of the tax breaks and loopholes if it doesn't want people to take advantage of them. tax breaks and loopholes are supposed to be an incentive to do "good" so why are some people penalized for doing "good"

Posted on: 12/19 18:08
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whether this affects me or not is irrelevant, why should people be penalized for being successful?


Welcome to the Republican Party.

Seriously, though... you are making the opposite argument of most liberals who advocate for a progressive tax system. That is, incrementally higher taxes for those making more. The more you make, the more you pay, not just in actual dollars, but actual percentages. The AMT was instituted to ensure that very well to do people would not be able to take advantage of tax breaks and loopholes to avoid paying defined minimums. Over time, as salaries have soared for many segments of the population, more and more of us are stuck paying the AMT. And, trust me, it sucks to pay it every year. But, now you are saying you are OK with people not having to pay a minimum amount of tax by taking/exploiting all kinds of loopholes and breaks? I think you got your talking points mixed up.

Posted on: 12/19 17:17
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whether this affects me or not is irrelevant, why should people be penalized for being successful?

Posted on: 12/19 16:07
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of course, the tax benefits were gonna go to the 0.1%. get real. trump is no robinhood. lol.

i.m distraught that the senate didn't do away with the amt for individuals.


Distraught over what?! In the final draft, the AMT threshold was raised to 500K for individuals, and 1MM for couples. Unless you are making 500+ K, you need not worry.

Posted on: 12/19 15:02
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of course, the tax benefits were gonna go to the 0.1%. get real. trump is no robinhood. lol.

i.m distraught that the senate didn't do away with the amt for individuals.

Posted on: 12/19 14:41
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almost universally, everybody is in favor of more services, more handouts, and more assistance, until it is their turn to pony up money to cover those costs.


Yes, but we didn't get any of those, our tax increase will go to comforting the most comfortable.

Posted on: 12/19 11:32
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Geez, weren't affluent liberals telling us how much they want to pay higher taxes, and now when they have an opportunity to do so, they're whining...


We didn't want to pay those taxes to the 0.1%!!!


The truth is that most Americans are in favor not of taxing the rich, but rather the richer. Even decidedly upper middle class folks (say, couples with a combined income of 400+ K) want to believe they are not rich and therefore should not be subject to a tax increase. Funny how that works... almost universally, everybody is in favor of more services, more handouts, and more assistance, until it is their turn to pony up money to cover those costs.

Posted on: 12/18 23:42
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Geez, weren't affluent liberals telling us how much they want to pay higher taxes, and now when they have an opportunity to do so, they're whining...


We didn't want to pay those taxes to the 0.1%!!!

Posted on: 12/18 22:04
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Geez, weren't affluent liberals telling us how much they want to pay higher taxes, and now when they have an opportunity to do so, they're whining...

Posted on: 12/18 21:52
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Regarding consolidation of services among towns and cities, this happened in our neck of the woods, sort of -

http://www.nhfirefighters.org/

"In 1999 when the five municipalities consisting of Guttenberg, North Bergen, Weehawken, West New York and Union City unilaterally decided to merge their individual fire departments into a single department under the newly created North Hudson Regional Fire & Rescue, they disrupted long term collective bargaining groups and firefighter international and fraternal organizations."

Also, I predict that in 2018 there will be a call for drastic legislation similar to California's Proposition 13. Of course it was a mess in CA when implemented, but people can only take so much.



Posted on: 12/18 21:33
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maybe more and more jersey cities will consider consolidation in order to be run more efficiently. honestly, i don't understand why hudson and bergen counties don't consolidate into one hudson city which would still be smaller than manhattan.

maybe governor-elect murphy should establish a commission to force municipal consolidation.

That is a ridiculous plan, it's not as if we are The South where all the towns are small and they just go by counties. Plus J.C. cannot keep up with their services and police matters as it is. We have equipment suitable for the size of Bayonne, Hoboken, or Secaucus. Our roads are atrocious and the repairs are a joke. Traffic patterns and parking have become a daily battle of wits and aside from bicycle use transportation options are minimal. North Hudson county has consolidated their fire department and that has worked well only because it has to follow strict guidelines with the state and their job is not taxing till it come time to deal with a fire which is a job in itself.


There was not a single valid argument there. Of course we should be one city, with FAR less highly paid chiefs to indians, but the towns run on patronage, these jobs are currency. Not one town in NJ would vote to give it up.

STATS: if Hudson cty were one city we would be both larger in population and denser than Boston, Denver, Portland, Seattle, Baltimore, and Vegas.

Posted on: 12/18 21:14
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ok then, maybe more work should be handled by the county. i don't see why every single city needs to have its own board of education, sanitation department, police department...there is room for efficiency gains

Posted on: 12/18 20:00
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hero69 wrote:
maybe more and more jersey cities will consider consolidation in order to be run more efficiently. honestly, i don't understand why hudson and bergen counties don't consolidate into one hudson city which would still be smaller than manhattan.

maybe governor-elect murphy should establish a commission to force municipal consolidation.

That is a ridiculous plan, it's not as if we are The South where all the towns are small and they just go by counties. Plus J.C. cannot keep up with their services and police matters as it is. We have equipment suitable for the size of Bayonne, Hoboken, or Secaucus. Our roads are atrocious and the repairs are a joke. Traffic patterns and parking have become a daily battle of wits and aside from bicycle use transportation options are minimal. North Hudson county has consolidated their fire department and that has worked well only because it has to follow strict guidelines with the state and their job is not taxing till it come time to deal with a fire which is a job in itself.

Posted on: 12/18 19:48
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maybe more and more jersey cities will consider consolidation in order to be run more efficiently. honestly, i don't understand why hudson and bergen counties don't consolidate into one hudson city which would still be smaller than manhattan.

maybe governor-elect murphy should establish a commission to force municipal consolidation.

Posted on: 12/18 19:24
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SOS wrote:
Things looking grim in wealthier NJ suburbs, anticipating no SALT deduction -

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/17/nyr ... -new-jersey-tax-bill.html

While I'm opposed to this tax bill on many grounds, including the removal of the SALT deduction, we won't really know how this affects NJ for some time.

For example: Livingston is an affluent suburb. While there are many middle class and fixed-income residents, the median income is $120,000 per household. That's double the national average, and nearly 50% higher than the NJ average.

It is entirely plausible middle-class residents will benefit from the increased standard deductible, while the wealthier residents will benefit from a variety of other tax breaks in the bill. We just don't know yet.

I.e. A report that "affluent suburbanites are terrorized!" doesn't tell us how their taxes will actually change.

Posted on: 12/18 15:28
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Of course, you should feel free to put your money where your mouth is, and if you personally own in DTJC you should sell now. Right?


I live in DTJC as a renter... I have chosen to to sit out the market until things are clearer. Or, if things go sideways, until the dust settles somewhat.

We should know more by mid to late 2019, after the impact of the upcoming tax changes have been fully experienced.


Good luck trying to time the market. From Aesop, The Fox and the Grapes.


Meh. One thing is to try to time a market (local real estate, or the financial ones) and another is to simply choose to stay out of a situation that is clearly not quite stable with many moving parts and uncertain outcomes. But, sure.... sour grapes.

Posted on: 12/18 15:18
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Things looking grim in wealthier NJ suburbs, anticipating no SALT deduction -

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/17/nyr ... -new-jersey-tax-bill.html

Posted on: 12/18 14:42
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i predict that dtjc will be just fine...while some might sell, i belioeve that the nyc housing market will remain bouyant, sending plenty of "bargain" hunters over to jersey city. while taxes might be going up in dtjc, jc is still a bargain when all in costs of ownership are factored in. time will tell.

Posted on: 12/18 13:29
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Dolomiti wrote:

Of course, you should feel free to put your money where your mouth is, and if you personally own in DTJC you should sell now. Right?


I live in DTJC as a renter... I have chosen to to sit out the market until things are clearer. Or, if things go sideways, until the dust settles somewhat.

We should know more by mid to late 2019, after the impact of the upcoming tax changes have been fully experienced.


There are lot of moving parts to the Federal tax changes. Seems clear that for owner-occupiers in high tax locations the net effect of the changes – limit of 10k for the combination of state, local, income/sales and property tax is negative, making the reval’s impact more severe by increasing overall cost of ownership. However, deductions for property taxes on rental properties might remain deductible (fully or partly) to landlords’ businesses, as could the mortgage interest deduction – being a business expense. Then there’s the matter of how pass-through income for Type S corporations (LLC’s) will be treated.

At this point I’m not certain what made it into the final bill regarding investment real estate– something did as there was some commentary about how it appears very favorable to the president. In any event, it appears now that the tax changes for property tax deductions will be much less significant for landlords. Consequently, the impact of the reval increase looks to be a good deal LESS for landlords than owner-occupiers.

Owner occupiers in high tax areas might respond by renting their houses, and living in a rental themselves. You and your neighbor could “swap” houses, renting to each other, to obtain the favorable tax treatment accorded to landlords. Transfer ownership of your place to the “My place is for rent, LLC.” That would free up the entire 10k to use for state and local income taxes, make the property taxes deductible and as a bonus make the mortgage interest deductible. Obviously, all depends on the actual numbers.

Now that would be some unintended consequence – making the economics of changes for property tax deduction overall more favorable to “high” cost states…. There would be no point in a low tax state to try and turn your owner-occupied property into a rental - it wouldn’t increase your deductions. Of course it all depends on the specifics of the final bill. The devil is in the details, as they say….

Seems very tough to predict what the net, final impact will be on the JC housing market.

Posted on: 12/18 1:00
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Dolomiti wrote:

Of course, you should feel free to put your money where your mouth is, and if you personally own in DTJC you should sell now. Right?


I live in DTJC as a renter... I have chosen to to sit out the market until things are clearer. Or, if things go sideways, until the dust settles somewhat.

We should know more by mid to late 2019, after the impact of the upcoming tax changes have been fully experienced.


Good luck trying to time the market. From Aesop, The Fox and the Grapes.

One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a bine which had been trained over a lofty branch. ‘Just the thing to quench my thirst', quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the branch. Turning round with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in their air, saying: ‘I am sure they are sour.'

Posted on: 12/17 17:31
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Dolomiti wrote:

Of course, you should feel free to put your money where your mouth is, and if you personally own in DTJC you should sell now. Right?


I live in DTJC as a renter... I have chosen to to sit out the market until things are clearer. Or, if things go sideways, until the dust settles somewhat.

We should know more by mid to late 2019, after the impact of the upcoming tax changes have been fully experienced.

Posted on: 12/17 16:55
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bodhipooh wrote:
Well, now that it is a guarantee that the tax reform bill will be passed, we have enough details to know there will be some severe impact on homeownership in our area....

** yawn **

Those federal tax changes are going to hit the entire NYC area and beyond; and inventory is so tight that properties forced on the market by the reval will be snapped up quickly. In other words, the same forces which have driven up DTJC real estate for years have not gone away.

And if the market can handle years of double-digit growth in real estate value (and years of predictions of DOOOOOM for DTJC), it can survive the reval.

Of course, you should feel free to put your money where your mouth is, and if you personally own in DTJC you should sell now. Right?

Posted on: 12/17 15:49
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I do not expect a full-blown crash. I do think there will be some churn, some instability, and probably a drop in values as some people feel forced to dump properties they are suddenly not able to afford. But, Jersey City is very enticing for many people, and not just financial refugees from NYC. But, there are a few factors that give me pause, and we will have to wait to see what happens. An elimination or capping of mortgage or SALT deduction, plus the uncertain state of school / BOE taxes (you can be certain that if we end up with a 1.6% tax rate, Trenton and many municipalities will be pushing for JC to take on a larger share of the local BOE budget) and there is the fact that we are in a 10-year period since the last correction/recession.


There's a whole lot of moving parts in this machine, and many of them have the potential to affect the market. As for the DT school situation, I hope the overflow is temporary and more schools are coming, didn't some of the abatement deals include school space? I think the district was irresponsible not leasing the Resurrection School on 7th when the Diocese closed it, they must have seen this coming.


Well, now that it is a guarantee that the tax reform bill will be passed, we have enough details to know there will be some severe impact on homeownership in our area: SALT deductions will be capped at 10K, and mortgage interest deduction will be limited to payments on debt of 750K. I think it is hard (impossible?) to argue that there will not be a negative impact in local real estate values (at least in the short term and, quite likely, long term) as people in DTJC are faced with a significant tax increase, coupled with the loss of state income tax deduction, and the double whammy of a cap on both the mortgage interest and property tax deductions.

Posted on: 12/17 15:02
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Have you looked at any comps recently? Things have gone through the roof,


I am possibly under assessed on one property... a 3 family in the Heights with an NYC view. Somehow, I never got re-assessed after renovating the place.

My other 3 properties, I got hosed. The tax assessor really hammered me. My other 3 family in the Heights is over $12k in taxes. My 4 family is over $25k (would have been worse if I didn't win my tax appeal 10 years back). Back then, I didn't know about the 5 year abatement. Will be applying for the abatement when I do (budget willing) the siding upgrades next spring.

Posted on: 12/16 21:21
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MDM wrote:
At 1.62% I am looking at a significant cut in my taxes, even after adjusting my appraised value up significantly. For me this will be a savings of $10k to $15k a year (multiple properties).

That will cover most of my son's tuition, once he is old enough to attend school.


Have you looked at any comps recently? Things have gone through the roof, I'm not at all certain that I'll see reductions in my Heights properties. Zillow says my 3U paying $8k is worth >700k, 1.6% means $11,200!!!

Posted on: 12/16 11:58
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At 1.62% I am looking at a significant cut in my taxes, even after adjusting my appraised value up significantly. For me this will be a savings of $10k to $15k a year (multiple properties).

That will cover most of my son's tuition, once he is old enough to attend school.

Posted on: 12/16 11:28
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