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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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So-Hot-----We-Hu!
said ironically
(South of Holland Tunnel, West of Hudson)

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Metropolis wrote:
Could secede to NYC... become West Tribeca... Or.... Sohowehu! (South of Houston, West of Hudson)

Mark.

Posted on: 2006/2/10 13:48
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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Quote:

fasteddie wrote:
Our past city/county fathers were such idiots. ...Those powdered wig, knee breech wearing wussies.


What makes ya think we ever left?

Back at ya, fasteddie!


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Posted on: 2006/2/10 0:47
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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I'm sure many of you know the history of JC. How downtown was the original JC then merged with Hudson City and some other areas then split up again then re-merged into what we know today. Where we really screwed ourselves was in splitting off from Bergen Co. They kept the name Bergen and we kept the urban headaches. Imagine what we could do with those Upper Saddle River/Alpine taxes today. Our past city/county fathers were such idiots. And then there's the story about NJ giving Staten Island to NY because they were intimidated. Those powdered wig, knee breech wearing wussies.

Posted on: 2006/2/10 0:36
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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Yes, secession and maybe we could call our new sovereignty Planet Mongo!

Apologies to kermit, RR, elmerfudd and Mr T for the large image!


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Posted on: 2006/2/10 0:25
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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Before anyone goes drawing up plans for a new city hall just remember that Downtown would be left with a lot of tax abated properties that would not contribute to the school or county coffers. That would mean that funding those institutions would fall on the shoulders of the common homeowner. Downtown schools would have a much smaller pool of funding if you were to eliminate the tax contributions of our friends and neighbors in JrnlSq, the Heights, Westside, LafBerg, Greenville. Think about it.

All this secession talk reminds me of growing up in Northern Calif. and how everytime there was a drought everyone would grumble about how LA takes all of the north's water and "maybe we should secede and form a new state". Fun to talk about and imagine but silly really.

Posted on: 2006/2/9 20:09
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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JC is so big and varied, I've often thought it would be great to break off and give ourselves a highfalutin name like Pavonia. But it's probably politically impossible. Plus, I checked and there already is a Pavonia, NJ.

Quote:
But it would be funny to see all the snobs get snubbed by the even greater snobs.


Maybe we should be careful with all the class warefare stuff. Yes, new residents are moving and and, for the most part, they have higher incomes than the people leaving. But don't call someone a snob just because he has an iPod.

Posted on: 2006/2/9 17:25
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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I don't think Hoboken would take downtown JC, which is a good 10 years behind Hoboken's gentrification.

If Hoboken wanted to get bigger, the logical merger is with Weehawken.

That said...I don't think any of these towns want to merge. The pols and govt workers are very happy with the status quo.

In Hudson County a verity is that govt exists to serve elected officials and govt workers (and don't think the citizenry has a function beyond paying the bills). No govt official wants to give up his/her fiefdom. There will be no mergers, not anytime soon.

Yes, it would be smart to merge Hoboken, the Heights, downtown JC, Weehawken, and Guttenberg. That town would be much bigger than Newark -- it would be by far the biggest city in NJ -- it would have diversity, some wealth, some ratables. We could get rid of three police chiefs, three fire chiefs, three Parking Authority bosses, etc., etc., + allied infrasture and management layers. We could fire hundreds of no shows and do nothings in the restructuring. This would be massive cost savings. But it ain't gonna happen.

Posted on: 2006/2/9 17:24
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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Could secede to NYC... become West Tribeca... Or.... Sohowehu! (South of Houston, West of Hudson)

Mark.

Posted on: 2006/2/9 17:12
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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Nuada, just to play devil's advocate, what if we seceded and joined Hoboken to become Hudson City? The argument about inefficiencies seems to be offset, since we'd be trading one municipality for another. Of course, I doubt the old school hobokenites would allow anything that would dilute their control, but that's another issue.

Someone else posted that it requires 60% of residents to approve a request to secede, but what other limits are there? Does the county have a say? Is there a minimum size a municipality must meet? What happens to common land, such as roads and parks that fall on the borders? I'd assume seceding would cost hundreds of thousands or more in legal bills, who would pay for it?

Posted on: 2006/2/9 17:02
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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I think that smaller, community based governments might work better.>>

Alas, it doesn't work that way in NJ. One of NJ's great inefficiencies is the proliferation of speck-sized municipalities that, of course, need governments to match. How many $150k/year police chiefs do we have in Hudson County? Little governments seem to make governments more unprofessional and accountability harder, at least that's how it works in NJ.

Downtown JC secession is a silly idea.

Posted on: 2006/2/9 15:39
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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Quote:

Anonymous wrote:
What a wonderful brainstorming idea?

Should Ward E Downtown Jersey City ditch the balance of Jersey City and take responsibility for its own future? Any practical issues to address or obstacles to making this a reality?

Pros - Cons?


Money. You would have to make sure the money would work in our favor.

Posted on: 2005/3/16 15:35
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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New Jersey already suffers from the fact that it has too many municipalities. (566) Plus what ever downtown is called, it would have to assume a porrtion of Jersey City's existing debt if it did secede and form it's own municipality.

Posted on: 2005/3/12 5:44
"Never confuse dissent with disloyality" - Thomas Paine
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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The new city will be called Pavonia - sorry, but I decided that a long time ago - during the Cucci administration, I think.

Viva Pavonia!

Posted on: 2005/3/10 23:30
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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Quote:

GrovePath wrote:
I would love to know if Downtown really could do this.

But what could we call it? I think it should be called the area Jersey Town or Hudson City.


Check out this link: it turns out that downtown WAS a different town. it was called VAN VORST. Cornelius Van Vorst and others found the town in 1841 on the portion of land that had been settled in 1638. It was adjacent to the old Jersey City and extended south to the City Hall area. The town lasted ten years when it joined the municipality of Jersey City.

I think we secede and return to being Van Vorst, NJ.
http://www.njcu.edu/programs/jchistor ... _Holota_Memorial_Park.htm

Posted on: 2005/3/10 23:07
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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I would love to know if Downtown really could do this.

But what could we call it? I think it should be called the area Jersey Town or Hudson City.

Trenton State College changed it's name, It stole Princeton U's first name College of New Jersey.

Posted on: 2004/11/9 22:01
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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Posted on: 2004/11/9 17:39
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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Quote:

Falcon wrote:

"The possibility of this going through is probably pretty slim," said Reock. "But really, it depends on how passionate the residents are and how willing they are to fight."

The sacrifices are worth it, according to the residents.

"Even if we don't get relief from our parking problems, so what?" said Ambrogio. He said residents have not talked to Fair Lawn officials about the parking situation. "If this goes through, there are no guarantees. But at least we will belong to a better community. Now we have nothing. So ... what are we possibly going to lose? Nothing."



Sounds like it would be worth looking into. Why not?

Posted on: 2004/11/9 16:15
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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
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State law requires 60% of to agree to the secession, who would like to orgainize this for Jersey City?


Fed-up neighbors want out of town

Monday, November 8, 2004

By HEATHER KAYS
HERALD NEWS

ELMWOOD PARK - After trying for some time to get the Borough Council to respond to their parking, traffic and litter problems, a group of 42 residents on Florence Place say they want out.

Residents from a block with 46 houses nestled up against Route 4 and the Elmwood Shopping Center are petitioning to secede from Elmwood Park and become part of Fair Lawn.

And although it means higher taxes and a bureaucratic headache for all involved - plus, no promise of a solution to their problems - the residents are committed. They have obtained the signatures of 92 percent of those who would be affected by the secession. State law requires 60 percent to proceed with the annexation process.

"After a month of meetings with the council and zero results, we don't want to be a part of Elmwood Park anymore," said Jerry Lobozzo, a Florence Place resident for several years. "Basically we are fed up with our government. We don't want to live in this community anymore."

But Mayor Richard Mola said that his office has received several calls from residents saying that they have been harassed and coerced into signing the annexation petition.

"I'm getting phone calls from people saying that they don't want to go to Fair Lawn. They seem like they are scared, said Mola, who has held office for 33 years. "Some residents are throwing a fit because they didn't get their way. I mean, is this really all over parking?"

Elmwood Park residents say it has been more than three decades of the same complaints: Lack of parking for residents on their own streets, unrelenting and excessive traffic, and constant litter problems, creating a rodent infestation that required the local health department's intervention with a nearby business.

A study done by a Fair Lawn committee of the Route 4 corridor in 2000 found that the positives of having a busy service highway nearby were "more than offset by a number of negative factors" including excessive traffic and lack of adequate parking, particularly on the north side of Route 4, where Florence Place is located.

A variety of solutions were discussed with Elmwood Park residents and at council meetings. Forming of a committee to discuss a solution, building a municipal parking lot using eminent domain, establishing a parking permit system for residents only and establishing stricter time and parking regulations have been debated. But attempts to find a solution that both residents and Borough Council members can agree on have been unsuccessful, according to some residents and members of the council.

"For years the mayor and council has shut their eyes to us. They have ignored and abused us," said Tony Ambrogio. A longtime resident and semiretired contractor, Ambrogio, 68, has owned his home on Florence Place since 1969.

"I've been at this for over 30 years," he said. "It's not responsible government when you just don't respond to people like that."

So the residents collected information on annexation, contacted Fair Lawn Mayor David Ganz and Assemblyman Robert M. Gordon - both carefully noncommittal - and have held several meetings to discuss what the possibility of annexing themselves really means.

A neighborhood attempting to move borders and change from one community to another is rare, if not unheard of, according to several state and local officials.

"I have not heard about this before," said Deborah Kole, staff attorney for the New Jersey League of Municipalities. "I've heard of towns trying to secede to another county. There are towns that have merged. But I have not heard of one street wanting to secede from one town to another. It's bizarre."

Ernest Reock Jr., former director for the Center of Government Services at Rutgers University, said the biggest factor in any annexation is taxes. "Generally there is someone who will not be happy with the situation," he said. "If residents leave, those left in the town have to make up for the loss of taxes."

In Elmwood Park, the tax rate is $3.09 per $100 of the assessed value of the home, according to the borough tax assessor. The average homeowner pays about $4,500 a year in taxes. In Fair Lawn, the rate is $3.67 per $100 of the assessed value, according to the borough tax assessor. But because homes in general have greater assessed value in Fair Lawn, the average homeowner pays $6,700 a year in property taxes. Other services, including fire, police and waste disposal, are essentially the same in either community.

"Usually it's a municipality trying to secede to a town with lower taxes," Reock said. "But that's not the situation you have in Elmwood Park. That's what makes this case so unusual."

After the petition is verified and accepted by Elmwood Park, it would go to the Planning Board so that a study could be done on the problem. Next, Elmwood Park would have to approve the move. After that, the Borough Council of Fair Lawn would have to approve it. If denied in either case, the residents could go to court to appeal.

"The possibility of this going through is probably pretty slim," said Reock. "But really, it depends on how passionate the residents are and how willing they are to fight."

The sacrifices are worth it, according to the residents.

"Even if we don't get relief from our parking problems, so what?" said Ambrogio. He said residents have not talked to Fair Lawn officials about the parking situation. "If this goes through, there are no guarantees. But at least we will belong to a better community. Now we have nothing. So ... what are we possibly going to lose? Nothing."

http://www.bergenrecord.com/page.php? ... sN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NjEwNDY4


Posted on: 2004/11/9 2:56
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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#22
I would most definitely vote to secede. It would be nice if Newport would go with us to increase the tax base.

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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#21
There's great leverage in both directions...

Your claim is actually not supported by the numbers, nor is it contractually sound.

We have no fear of succession. Btw, Mr. Lipski hasn't figured out yet that all those dollars not going to the county because they've been abated, has an impact on the county levy to JC. He's puzzled that the 11% increase in the country tax allocation to JC is simply a matter of accountability, when it's a systemic problem caused by the abatement process. Quite the contrary... the abatements are benefiting downtown and are damaging OLD Jersey City

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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#20
A secession would be such FUN...at least until all the people in Ward E find out that they must now pay full taxes to support the city, the schools AND the county.

All the new construction of the last 20 years has had tax abatements and is supported by OLD Jersey City.

Get out you wallets, your shares of the costs will now DOUBLE.

Thinking your s*it don't stink will cost you PLENTY!

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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#19
I've been waiting to bring back my slaves! I can't wait for the downtown area to secede from the rest of Jersey City!

Way to go folks, looks like some of you have reached the moral and political maturity of a mid-nineteeth century southerner!

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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#18
Regarding Tris' reference to Alan Karcher's piece... while it addresses the impact of fragmentation, it doesn't (nor was it intended to) address the underlying issues that caused the fragmentation.

I can see secession as the response to non-responsive governmental structures and frustration.

In the Jersey City context, I can point to stress fractures in governance and administration.

Jersey City's size also has an impact. With a distorted tax base (overly reliant on property taxes and gimicky tax abatements), we still manage to have an underfunded budget, which is barely able to meet reasonable demands for city services. Even the structure and organization of City Council is open to question. We have a city council, which is a part-time institution, and paid accordingly, and it too seems inadequate to meet the needs of a city with full-time, real city problems:

Short of secession, some questions for other future threads:

1. Should the very structure of Jersey City government be questioned. Has Jersey City, literally, outgrown the ability of its institutions to cope?

2. Does it serve the various diverse communities of Jersey City to have a 6 Ward system and 3 at large council people, or should city council be reorganized along some other lines provided by NY law?

3. Should there be something like a community board system instituted?

4. Are property taxes a fair way to finance the city's oeprations? Should we ditch property taxes in favor of some other approach to taxation -- e.g. a form of city income tax?

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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#17
Quote:

Anonymous wrote:
Well if "it's cost us dearly" then Why is Hoboken which really is part of JC doing so well? Maybe downtown can join in with Hoboken we can call this area Hudson City.


Hoboken is one case out of 566.

It is not always to Hoboken's advantage to be so small. Ask anybody who works for that municipal government whether they'd like a little more territory. At this point, the only place for Hoboken to build is upward.

I love Hoboken, too. But Hoboken has a serious cramming problem.

Tris

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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#16
Why are some of you convinced Hoboken is part of Jersey City?

Is it the same blinders that make some of the people in Newport believe they're really in New York?

....very puzzling

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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#15
Well if "it's cost us dearly" then Why is Hoboken which really is part of JC doing so well? Maybe downtown can join in with Hoboken we can call this area Hudson City.

Hoboken & Hudson City has a nice ring to it all the waterfront from the turnpike east. We can share their services and pool our money! Then we'd get deat cops and safety!


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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#14
Thanks for the suggestion - sounds like a very interesting read. I'll give that one a go...

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Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#13
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Quote:
Anonymous wrote: If, let's say the city broke up into Downtown, Bergen, Greenville, JSq/Marian, The Heights, etc. would any of these new cities have fewer people than places like Guttenberg or East Newark? Smaller may work better.
I strongly encourage you to read New Jersey's Multiple Municipal Madness by Alan Karcher, the former Assembly Speaker. It's a terrific read, and it explains exactly why the fragmentation of New Jersey into many tiny municipalities has cost us terribly. It's one of the best books ever written about New Jersey, and one I think about almost every day.

Posted on: 2004/10/5 1:26
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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#12
Vote the bums out! We must vote!

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Anonymous
Re: Should Downtown Jersey City Secede?
#11
Cash cow to exploit? If anyone's exploiting Downtown, it's the politicians - who are most certainly keeping the take for themselves. I live in Marion, and haven't seen improvements in years. The city services are a joke, and half the time I have a complaint to call in I'm made to feel like a total ass - left to take care of services that the city should be doing by myself.

Face it - Downtown is practically immaculate compared to so much else of JC - it's like a different world there. If you think your taxes are used to make any kind of change or improvement to the majority of JC, let me take you on a good walking tour.

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