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Re: Embankment- Update Thread
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I have to say, I think this is a really interesting idea. Maybe if the developer was smart he would've done that from the beginning and used the embankment walls as the outer structure of the condos. I bet nobody else in America would have a place like that.

But let's be fair, you really think something like this could be done for an amount like 300k? The removal of the insides would be a massive undertaking that would not only require getting some very heavy machinery on top of the embankment, but then you'd have get it all out before you could even begin to construct tennis courts, parks, etc. Good luck getting that done for under a couple million bucks.

I still hope they just leave it as is.

Quote:

neverleft wrote:
For once in your newcomer lives why don?t you start thinking on your own and STOP looking to NYC for shi*. You are all freaking copy cats. They have a Whole Foods, you want a Whole Foods. They have an Elevated Park, you want an elevated park. They have a Barcade, you want (and got) a Barcade. What next a floating swimming barge in the Hudson off LSP? How unoriginal of you.

Do you think I am going to pay the millions and millions of dollars to not only construct your elevated park but the millions to maintain it? And the millions to settle the law suits from the parents of kids (and drunken hipsters) who fall off of your elevated park? Connecting bridges over every street..you must be on drugs.

Think out of the box for once and let NYC look to us!

Here is a simple cool idea. I have not read the entire thread and don?t know if anyone else came up with this ingenious (and cheap) idea yet. (but from reading your posts from other threads I doubt it)

Why would we want another outdoor park in JC we have enough of them. Do something called WALKING or RIDING A BIKE over to JC?s many parks. The idea of a quiet out of the way park is NOT an elevated park. What peace would it bring? You are going to hear the city noise 10 fold being elevated. (sound rises like heat) Also do you really want to look across the street over into someone?s 3rd floor bathroom window while they shave their legs or pits? (ok creepy calm down) And how fast do you think you can climb down 2 flights of stairs to go after the punk you see breaking into your car 20 feet below? Those pictures someone posted are so breath taking but guess what you could have taken the pictures at street level and had the same effect. Duh.

Here do this?.for under $500K ..no under $300K.

-put up a BIG sign that says FREE DIRT. (let?s just hope there?s no chromium in it .. maybe a NO RETURNS sign would also help)

-dig all of the dirt out of the embankments leaving the beautiful bare stone walls. Patch them if need be. At least you won?t need a multimillion dollar French drain system in the dirt to protect them.

-make multiple street level mini enclosed parks on each block (who the F wants to climb two flights of stairs to get to an elevated park..with a baby carriage) Cut entrances into the stone walls, put up cool local artist created gates. (with locks..heavy locks!)

-Throw a tennis court in one, a hand ball court (or are you yuppies into bocce ball now) in another. A Jungle Gym for the rug-rat crowd. No hoops though because as you know it always attracts a bad element. (a yuppie with a b-ball is bad news a very ugly sight, especially when they start trying to talk ghetto)

- leave a little dirt in each .. make mini elevated park areas with flowers and trees (I?m talking 3 feet dirt mounds not 20 feet) within the walls. (and NO freakin dog walks) Make one just an adult chill park for relaxing (and picking up chicks) ..maybe have one of those fancy Japanese gardens in it with those cool big orange and white fish. (yeah like they would last one night in JC)

-the possibilities are endless mini golf, small rentable party space(cover half of one with a glass roof) ,gazebos, music shells (can you image the acoustics for summer time concerts?) One more thing NO bathrooms let people shi* for themselves somewhere else or hold it in.

Get the gist of it yet? Enclosed mini parks within the city to SHUT OUT all of the city noise and ugly sights. (not you honey) Not an expensive elevated park that lifts you 20 feet above the city. The same dam city noise and ugly sights just 20 feet higher?no thanks!

Let?s get started. Print up some flier?s announcing a design contest. A fresh design with be picked for each blocks mini-enclosed park space.



(listen to this old-timer...I posted this just 5 minutes ago and look...a new yorker named maybeMoving is already thinking about moving here.)

Posted on: 2012/2/10 21:30
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For once in your newcomer lives why don?t you start thinking on your own and STOP looking to NYC for shi*. You are all freaking copy cats. They have a Whole Foods, you want a Whole Foods. They have an Elevated Park, you want an elevated park. They have a Barcade, you want (and got) a Barcade. What next a floating swimming barge in the Hudson off LSP? How unoriginal of you.

Do you think I am going to pay the millions and millions of dollars to not only construct your elevated park but the millions to maintain it? And the millions to settle the law suits from the parents of kids (and drunken hipsters) who fall off of your elevated park? Connecting bridges over every street..you must be on drugs.

Think out of the box for once and let NYC look to us!

Here is a simple cool idea. I have not read the entire thread and don?t know if anyone else came up with this ingenious (and cheap) idea yet. (but from reading your posts from other threads I doubt it)

Why would we want another outdoor park in JC we have enough of them. Do something called WALKING or RIDING A BIKE over to JC?s many parks. The idea of a quiet out of the way park is NOT an elevated park. What peace would it bring? You are going to hear the city noise 10 fold being elevated. (sound rises like heat) Also do you really want to look across the street over into someone?s 3rd floor bathroom window while they shave their legs or pits? (ok creepy calm down) And how fast do you think you can climb down 2 flights of stairs to go after the punk you see breaking into your car 20 feet below? Those pictures someone posted are so breath taking but guess what you could have taken the pictures at street level and had the same effect. Duh.

Here do this?.for under $500K ..no under $300K.

-put up a BIG sign that says FREE DIRT. (let?s just hope there?s no chromium in it .. maybe a NO RETURNS sign would also help)

-dig all of the dirt out of the embankments leaving the beautiful bare stone walls. Patch them if need be. At least you won?t need a multimillion dollar French drain system in the dirt to protect them.

-make multiple street level mini enclosed parks on each block (who the F wants to climb two flights of stairs to get to an elevated park..with a baby carriage) Cut entrances into the stone walls, put up cool local artist created gates. (with locks..heavy locks!)

-Throw a tennis court in one, a hand ball court (or are you yuppies into bocce ball now) in another. A Jungle Gym for the rug-rat crowd. No hoops though because as you know it always attracts a bad element. (a yuppie with a b-ball is bad news a very ugly sight, especially when they start trying to talk ghetto)

- leave a little dirt in each .. make mini elevated park areas with flowers and trees (I?m talking 3 feet dirt mounds not 20 feet) within the walls. (and NO freakin dog walks) Make one just an adult chill park for relaxing (and picking up chicks) ..maybe have one of those fancy Japanese gardens in it with those cool big orange and white fish. (yeah like they would last one night in JC)

-the possibilities are endless mini golf, small rentable party space(cover half of one with a glass roof) ,gazebos, music shells (can you image the acoustics for summer time concerts?) One more thing NO bathrooms let people shi* for themselves somewhere else or hold it in.

Get the gist of it yet? Enclosed mini parks within the city to SHUT OUT all of the city noise and ugly sights. (not you honey) Not an expensive elevated park that lifts you 20 feet above the city. The same dam city noise and ugly sights just 20 feet higher?no thanks!

Let?s get started. Print up some flier?s announcing a design contest. A fresh design with be picked for each blocks mini-enclosed park space.



(listen to this old-timer...I posted this just 5 minutes ago and look...a new yorker named maybeMoving is already thinking about moving here.)

Posted on: 2012/2/10 20:40
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Bright, you're seriously going to tell me that someone's going to put up a hotel on Division and 6th next to Legal Beans and Healey's new bar because there's a new park nearby? Are they going to rezone 6th street for business? You're bringing up Whole Foods and Trader Joe's... on this?

Dude. Really.

Really?

Wow.

WOW.

Posted on: 2012/2/10 16:33
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As mentioned, being an elevated structure would add a lot of logistics to a park. Safety, vandalism, squatting etc... But not insurmountable issues. However, I think any opportunity to get more green space here, and in any urban community, should be taken advantage of.

Posted on: 2012/2/10 14:58
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I know both JPhurst and corybraiterman( Cory and I both served on PATH advisory panel as volunteers) and I'm also a member of the Embankment Preservation Coalition(EPC).

Just as corybraiterman has answered some of the posts here as to "what he wants on Embankment" many times (though I may disagree), so have I, as JPHurst, though many naysayers here are simply lazy to read other posts on this thread. I've posted why there are realistic economic reasons, beyond those of us who support an open space park, be built on the Embankment :



*Jobs
- Yes, as Spectra likes to claim, but these are long term service sector jobs, not temp such as:

- Hotels-staff, cleaning services;

- Retail - Galleries, box stores, grocery stores, specialized food stores(Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, small boutique stores (book store(s), children oriented stores, personal services- exercise, hair grooming, bike stores;

-Restaurants & Bars- bartenders, waitresses, managers, owners

-Embankment Conservancy -General Manager, wildscape oversite maintenance, urban planner(s), grant writers, event & fund raisers, security, general maintenance.

There was a major study commissioned in 2001 by the East Coast Greenway Alliance, a 3,000 mile hike and bike trail from Maine to Florida. at this link below (posted here by moi)that shows NOT the "possibility" of revenue generated along the East Coast Greenway Alliance generated by tourism, but what existed in 2001. Even with our 2008 economic collase, you're talking about sizable revenue.

JC has better costs to expense ratio for each tourist $ then does NYC and as such with the infrastructure built to support the Embankment open space park realized, Jersey City would finally have a local, regional, national "destination site" in the shadow of NYC other than the Liberty State Museum, to generate tax-paying revenue to both support the annual maintenance of the park AND generate additional revenue for JC.

In addition, if any of you naysayers, online punditry, had been at last nite's unanimous council vote in support of the EPC settlement, as were JPHurst, myself and a roomful of supporters who stayed for hours till the council vote, you would have heard JC counsel. Bill Matsikoudis, clearly explain the following. (Public info) That while settlement negotiations are still under discussion, they include the *possibility* of Con Rail or other developer getting inducements for building the bridge over-span and providing maintenance subsidies for the Embankment in exchange for any development. of Con Rail properties that "might be" acquired for development or zoning variances for Con Rail sale

Win, Win for all parties.

So unless you are for higher taxes, lack of job growth in JC only then would you be against preservation for an open space Embankment.

Re: The Embankment could have been JC's High Line #423 ( East Coast Alliance Study)


Quote:

JPhurst wrote:
Quote:

ExUWSguy wrote:


I am all for the Embankment, but we can't discount corybraiterman and stillinjc's concerns.


And we haven't! The discussion over funding, maintenance, upkeep, etc is something that advocates for preservation have been discussing for years. And it still is being discussed. Questions of feasibility, expense are constantly on the table for discussion.

Of all the groups I've seen advocating for open space and/or preservation, the EPC along with the Reservoir Alliance are probably the most thorough in addressing these issues. These groups actually raised funds, obtained earmarks and pledges, drew up plans, hired engineers, conducted studies, etc.

The problem is not that a minority on this board are raising "concerns." The problem is that they are making ill informed personal attacks on other people. When they do raise an issue of substance, it is something that, had they done their homework, they would have realized it had been largely addressed.

By all means, people should attend the meetings, council hearings and the like. I will simply note that at last night's council meeting, or for that matter any other council meetings where the subject was addressed, no one who thought this was a "waste of money" bothered to show.

Posted on: 2012/2/10 1:10
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Quote:

JPhurst wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:


I take Cory seriously. Because he's absolutely right.



Anonymous cowards on jclist don't count.


Haha, Mr Parkhurst has a new rule - you have to reveal your real name on jclist in order to "count", in his estimation.

Otherwise you are a coward.

C'mon, all jclisters, reveal your real names, or you don't count, and are cowards.

Oh, wait, that rule only applies when you disagree with Mr Parkhurst.

Never mind...


Posted on: 2012/2/10 0:20
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Quote:

ExUWSguy wrote:


I am all for the Embankment, but we can't discount corybraiterman and stillinjc's concerns.


And we haven't! The discussion over funding, maintenance, upkeep, etc is something that advocates for preservation have been discussing for years. And it still is being discussed. Questions of feasibility, expense are constantly on the table for discussion.

Of all the groups I've seen advocating for open space and/or preservation, the EPC along with the Reservoir Alliance are probably the most thorough in addressing these issues. These groups actually raised funds, obtained earmarks and pledges, drew up plans, hired engineers, conducted studies, etc.

The problem is not that a minority on this board are raising "concerns." The problem is that they are making ill informed personal attacks on other people. When they do raise an issue of substance, it is something that, had they done their homework, they would have realized it had been largely addressed.

By all means, people should attend the meetings, council hearings and the like. I will simply note that at last night's council meeting, or for that matter any other council meetings where the subject was addressed, no one who thought this was a "waste of money" bothered to show.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 20:33
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and by anonymous, you mean someone using their real name?


I wasn't referring to you.

Or are you saying that "stillinjc" is a real name?

Or is he your sockpuppet?

Posted on: 2012/2/9 20:08
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kencares wrote:
Cory's not anonymous... He outed himself as the guy that used to work at a record store at the mall on 440:

I imagine him to be like Jack Black in high fidelity:


Sadly, that was our last day of business. All gone now. And I truly wish at times I could have been more like that character.

{Customer} Do you have (insert terrible musician here)?
{Me} Do we look like we carry that sh@*? Go to the f&^%ing mall

Sadly, we did carry that crap, and we were in the mall.

Quote:
okay, so humor us: what DO you want there?

As I've said earlier in the thread, I'd support low-rise housing; the kind that would fit in with the neighborhood as opposed to dominating the area (and it would have to include parking imo, I don't own a car, but for those that do, having scores more people parking in already limited space would be an issue). I'd almost be OK if the embankment were leveled and a regular park were put in it's place - the upkeep for a regular park is a fraction of what it takes to maintain multiple bridges, service ramps, fencing, etc.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 19:38
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matty wrote:
corybraiterman and stillinjc:

no one here thinks jersey city is capable of creating a $75 mm park whose maintenance runs in the multiple millions of dollars a year. what most of us here want is a value-add project with the potential to put our city on the map. right now, our "map" consists of lsp, lefrak, crooked politicians, a strong rental market, and, soon, a jersey shore spinoff.


Matty - thanks so much for this post! I think for all of us who have hopes for the JC Embankment, you sum it up - and point out how we, as concerned citizens need to engage the JC government more to do the right thing for the city in the long run! Are you involved with the Embankment Preservation project? I'm thinking of it, to bring another voice. Now, having said that...

Quote:

matty wrote:
corybraiterman and stillinjc:

...no one is denying the obstacles; to deny the potential, as you both seem intent on doing, however, is offensively stupid. you guys must really love condos.

i really admire the ambition of you both, lusting after firefighters, libraries and a quiet, bedroom-oriented jersey city where tax dollars aren't wasted...


I am all for the Embankment, but we can't discount corybraiterman and stillinjc's concerns. One thing that also bears repeating is that we have to be careful about comparing it to the Highline - think about how the Highline gets its funding http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/nyr ... ft-to-high-line-park.html I don't think even if everyone who support the Embankment donated generously, we would hold a candle to this. We have to frame the argument in realistic, local terms.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 18:41
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I hope you have heard of emminent domain

Posted on: 2012/2/9 18:33
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Quote:

corybraiterman wrote:
Quote:

matty wrote:
you guys must really love condos.


I really don't know how many times I've written that I don't want a condo built there in this thread alone. I think this has to be pushing a dozen, perhaps twenty.


no park: check. no condos: check.
okay, so humor us: what DO you want there?

Posted on: 2012/2/9 18:16
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Cory's not anonymous... He outed himself as the guy that used to work at a record store at the mall on 440:
Resized Image (Far left)

I imagine him to be like Jack Black in high fidelity:
Resized Image

Posted on: 2012/2/9 17:54
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and by anonymous, you mean someone using their real name?

riiiiiiight. I wonder how many times I'll have to point THIS one out too, I think I'm up to half a dozen already.


As far as the big box being temporary, a) I'll believe it when I see it, seeing as how they're on long leases and show no signs of business being poor enough to make them move. and b) so we're going to have a public park end on private housing or is the developer selling that portion to the city as well?

Posted on: 2012/2/9 17:46
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Quote:

stillinjc wrote:


I take Cory seriously. Because he's absolutely right.



Anonymous cowards on jclist don't count.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 17:05
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corybraiterman wrote:
http://www.embankment.org/whitesite/embank9again.jpg is clearly not taken from the embankment

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2224/2065034603_15bf95720e.jpg great shot of the Bed Bath & Beyond. That's fantastic. Real tourist attraction.

Many of those shots look like they could be taken from half the backyards in the area - position camera low near a bush. Sorry, some nice pictures of bushes aren't worth 7 million+. Find them for less. Or let the Embankment rot as is and keep them. I'd rather see that ugly wall stay up there instead of flushing all that money away to get new ones.

Even assuming you have the Embankment down past Marin, then what? It ends on the east side of the block instead of the west in the shopping lot of Pep Boys. Hooray?


The "big box" retail in that area is temporary. The City's Master Plan has that area designated for large scale waterfront development. Residential, commercial, etc. It is unquestionably a long term plan, but it is the plan.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 17:05
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matty wrote:
you guys must really love condos.


I really don't know how many times I've written that I don't want a condo built there in this thread alone. I think this has to be pushing a dozen, perhaps twenty.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 11:23
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jc council voted 9-0 to approve the resolution authorizing the settlement to acquire the Embankment.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 6:28
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matty wrote:
corybraiterman and stillinjc:

no one here thinks jersey city is capable of creating a $75 mm park whose maintenance runs in the multiple millions of dollars a year. what most of us here want is a value-add project with the potential to put our city on the map. right now, our "map" consists of lsp, lefrak, crooked politicians, a strong rental market, and, soon, a jersey shore spinoff.

the park will take 5-7 years to plan and then another 5-7 years to build. but with some (uncharacteristic) creativity, it's possible to accomplish something beneficial to the city and its residents. no one is denying the obstacles; to deny the potential, as you both seem intent on doing, however, is offensively stupid. you guys must really love condos.

and as for the $7 mm: jersey city's budget is nearly a 1/2 billion dollars. do you think that a one-time expense of $7 million for land that's clearly worth many more times that, whether it be parkland or condos, is a bad investment for the city? the city paid nearly that much (federal, not city money) to put a chain-link fence underneath the turnpike.

i really admire the ambition of you both, lusting after firefighters, libraries and a quiet, bedroom-oriented jersey city where tax dollars aren't wasted. perhaps by the time city hall figures out how to accomplish all that aww-shucks super bowl-commercial just-folks bullshit, maybe the embankment will be a park in some fashion.


marry me.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 6:17
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STCblues thanks for posting these lovely pictures. We'd love to post on our website embankment.org. If you'd allow us to do so, please email me at info@embankment.org. Anyone else who has photos of the embankment that you'd like to share, please email me. Thanks so much! Jenny

Posted on: 2012/2/9 6:17
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Thanks for posting!

Posted on: 2012/2/9 6:15
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corybraiterman and stillinjc:

no one here thinks jersey city is capable of creating a $75 mm park whose maintenance runs in the multiple millions of dollars a year. what most of us here want is a value-add project with the potential to put our city on the map. right now, our "map" consists of lsp, lefrak, crooked politicians, a strong rental market, and, soon, a jersey shore spinoff.

the park will take 5-7 years to plan and then another 5-7 years to build. but with some (uncharacteristic) creativity, it's possible to accomplish something beneficial to the city and its residents. no one is denying the obstacles; to deny the potential, as you both seem intent on doing, however, is offensively stupid. you guys must really love condos.

and as for the $7 mm: jersey city's budget is nearly a 1/2 billion dollars. do you think that a one-time expense of $7 million for land that's clearly worth many more times that, whether it be parkland or condos, is a bad investment for the city? the city paid nearly that much (federal, not city money) to put a chain-link fence underneath the turnpike.

i really admire the ambition of you both, lusting after firefighters, libraries and a quiet, bedroom-oriented jersey city where tax dollars aren't wasted. perhaps by the time city hall figures out how to accomplish all that aww-shucks super bowl-commercial just-folks bullshit, maybe the embankment will be a park in some fashion.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 5:34
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hero69 wrote:
I can't wait to have a chai latte on the Embankment. Maybe with Snooki and the Situation.


And I'll take the check.

Awesome.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 3:56
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I can't wait to have a chai latte on the Embankment. Maybe with Snooki and the Situation.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 2:00
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embankment 24.jpg embankment 20.jpg embankment 2.jpg embankment 27.jpg

Posted on: 2012/2/9 1:18
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I can't wait to sip a chai latte on the embankment.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 0:57
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Quote:

Vigilante wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
I want my park.


And you want ME to pay for it.

So say it.

Just say it.


You will pay for it just as you paid the pension of a 52 year old retired JCPD officer who lives in New Smyrna Beach, Florida.


Wow.

What does one has to do with another? You lost me there, Vig.

Are you implying that both payments are wrong? Or both are good? Or "that's the way it is"? Or that I am getting my pocket picked regardless?

And what's up with New Smyrna Beach?


Posted on: 2012/2/9 0:01
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http://www.embankment.org/whitesite/embank9again.jpg is clearly not taken from the embankment

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2224/2065034603_15bf95720e.jpg great shot of the Bed Bath & Beyond. That's fantastic. Real tourist attraction.

Many of those shots look like they could be taken from half the backyards in the area - position camera low near a bush. Sorry, some nice pictures of bushes aren't worth 7 million+. Find them for less. Or let the Embankment rot as is and keep them. I'd rather see that ugly wall stay up there instead of flushing all that money away to get new ones.

Even assuming you have the Embankment down past Marin, then what? It ends on the east side of the block instead of the west in the shopping lot of Pep Boys. Hooray?

Posted on: 2012/2/9 0:00
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JPhurst wrote:
I have never taken credit personally for the Embankment being saved. The Conservancy was a supporter, and I did serve as President for 3 1/2 years, but support was established by my predecessors and continued by my successors.

The EPC has been the main organization, of course. And there are several people who have put in a lot more time, money and effort and my defense of them on this board has not been to preserve any legacy of myself. Rather, it has been a defense of those ill-informed, cynical, and hateful attacks on good people who have done work for no personal benefit.

Calling someone a "fraud" could be conceived as many as defamatory. But since no one takes you seriously I don't really care.


I take Cory seriously. Because he's absolutely right.

So you're wrong right there, Mr Parkhurst.

I also think that in your support of the Embankment you, along with EPC and City Hall are wasting my taxpayer dollars.

And I think you're doing it knowing full well that building a park there is cockamamie idea, one that JC cannot possibly afford.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 23:48
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Some more views from up on the embankment. embankment 32.jpg embankment 33.jpg embankment 22.jpg embankment 16.jpg embankment 6.jpg embankment 1.jpg

Posted on: 2012/2/8 20:51
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