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Re: New Amazon HQ
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Posted on: 3/6 13:11
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135jc wrote:
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RichMauro wrote:
I wonder if Cuomo will pull it off going back in?
An awful lot of the leeching political class are counting on big number jobs for family and friends.


He won't. How could he without even more incentives? In the end NYC will just give the grant away to a less deserving company so there will be no savings either.

Cuomo pretty much admitted that it's not an attempt to actually lure back Amazon. He's trying to tell other big corporations that the State is still willing to play ball.

That said, I don't see how Amazon is "more deserving" than any other company.
amazon cuomo should just shut it! aoc, desantis and others have said that they would welcome amazon in LIC as long as it followed procedures instead of seeking to circumvent them. most major, less egotistical corporations woud welcome community input.

btw, france is going to start taxing internet giants
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fra ... ax-internet-idUSKCN1QK0ET


Posted on: 3/6 1:03
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135jc wrote:
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RichMauro wrote:
I wonder if Cuomo will pull it off going back in?
An awful lot of the leeching political class are counting on big number jobs for family and friends.


He won't. How could he without even more incentives? In the end NYC will just give the grant away to a less deserving company so there will be no savings either.

Cuomo pretty much admitted that it's not an attempt to actually lure back Amazon. He's trying to tell other big corporations that the State is still willing to play ball.

That said, I don't see how Amazon is "more deserving" than any other company.

Posted on: 3/6 0:45
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RichMauro wrote:
I wonder if Cuomo will pull it off going back in?
An awful lot of the leeching political class are counting on big number jobs for family and friends.


He won't. How could he without even more incentives? In the end NYC will just give the grant away to a less deserving company so there will be no savings either.

Posted on: 3/5 19:13
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I wonder if Cuomo will pull it off going back in?
An awful lot of the leeching political class are counting on big number jobs for family and friends.

Posted on: 3/3 15:24
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fikonj wrote:
The observant reader will also see that numbers 3, 4, 6 and 7 on the Electronic Shopping and Mail Order Houses industry list are also Amazon companies...


Well there are 7 in total... audible and zappos need to be added


Rank H1B Visa Sponsor Number of LCA * Average Salary
1 Amazon 4,279 $126,279
3 Amazon Web Services 385 $122,538
4 A2z Development Center 304 $132,521
6 Amazon.Com.Dedc 181 $111,841
7 Amazon 115 $130,650
12 Audible 75 $118,469
23 Zappos Ip 22 $127,405


Posted on: 3/3 12:18
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Dude, there is no capital in some hidden account being handed over. The REAP and ICAP funds were refundable tax credits that Amazon would have been given.

OK then. It's a $500 million grant (not a tax cut) plus $1.2 billion in tax cuts not connected to the number of jobs, plus $1.2 billion linked to job cuts. Happy now?

We should note that tax cuts are not actually a free lunch. That is only the case if it is evident that there is no other way those tax revenues would be generated, which is definitely not the case -- unless you believe that HQ 2.5 would have imported most or all of its 25,000 of its hires from out of state, and that the lot will lie fallow for decades now that Amazon has decided not to build there.

We should also note that the claims about "$27.5 billion in tax revenues!!!" are, well... exaggerated. Where did the claim originate, by the way? In two economic impact statements, one released to the public (NY State) and one not (NYC).

Roughly speaking, half is NYC tax revenues, half is NY State tax revenues. It's over a 24 year period -- and the headline number does not account for inflation. The authors of the NY State report, however, did use 2019 dollars, and said NY State would get around $9 billion before the impact of tax cuts. So, right off the bat we can cut it to approximately $20 billion.

One big problem is that those statements were based on Amazon only opening only one additional headquarters, with a staff of 40,000. Instead, Amazon chose to open two HQs, and hire 25,000 employees in NYC. So, unless Amazon plans to hire 15,000 employees more than it originally planned, we can further cut the total to roughly $12 billion.

Aaaand.... That figure doesn't include the incentives. Again, about $1.7 billion is not linked to the number of jobs. We'll reduce the job-linked tax credits to $720m. So, now we are down to about $9 billion.

Guess what? Amazon says it's going to add 5000 employees to NYC anyway, with no tax breaks. Almost none of the expected income is corporate taxes (surprise!), it's income and sales taxes on employees. That means Amazon's additional workforce will still pay another $1.25 billion in taxes. So, now we are down to $7.75 billion. Over 24 years.

Let's shave off another chunk, shall we? The reality is that Amazon wasn't going to put HQ2.5 in Oneonta, meaning they weren't going to import 25,000 new employees to NY (city and/or state); in fact, a big reason why they wanted to open another HQ in NYC is because the techie employees they want are already here and/or were already planning to move to NYC. And they weren't $150k/yr jobs for high school grads; Amazon wants highly educated employees, the kind that have no problem finding work in NYC today. So, what are we down to now? Maybe $4 billion in additional tax revenues over 24 years, based on $2 billion in subsidies? Somehow, Amazon fleeing because it didn't want to tolerate unions doesn't seem like such a huge loss.

Ultimately, it seems pretty clear that Amazon needs NYC far, far more than NYC needs Amazon.

I will say there is no guarantee that those funds will be used for future job development. However, it's clear that lots of people just grabbed a big number and ran with it, without bothering to even think about it.
maybe amazo cuomo, De Blasio, and Amazon should have sought greater community input. I said it before when I heard that Amazon's HQ2 was becoming HQ0 and I'll say it again. BYE FELICIA!

Posted on: 2/23 23:19
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Dude, there is no capital in some hidden account being handed over. The REAP and ICAP funds were refundable tax credits that Amazon would have been given.

OK then. It's a $500 million grant (not a tax cut) plus $1.2 billion in tax cuts not connected to the number of jobs, plus $1.2 billion linked to job cuts. Happy now?

We should note that tax cuts are not actually a free lunch. That is only the case if it is evident that there is no other way those tax revenues would be generated, which is definitely not the case -- unless you believe that HQ 2.5 would have imported most or all of its 25,000 of its hires from out of state, and that the lot will lie fallow for decades now that Amazon has decided not to build there.

We should also note that the claims about "$27.5 billion in tax revenues!!!" are, well... exaggerated. Where did the claim originate, by the way? In two economic impact statements, one released to the public (NY State) and one not (NYC).

Roughly speaking, half is NYC tax revenues, half is NY State tax revenues. It's over a 24 year period -- and the headline number does not account for inflation. The authors of the NY State report, however, did use 2019 dollars, and said NY State would get around $9 billion before the impact of tax cuts. So, right off the bat we can cut it to approximately $20 billion.

One big problem is that those statements were based on Amazon only opening only one additional headquarters, with a staff of 40,000. Instead, Amazon chose to open two HQs, and hire 25,000 employees in NYC. So, unless Amazon plans to hire 15,000 employees more than it originally planned, we can further cut the total to roughly $12 billion.

Aaaand.... That figure doesn't include the incentives. Again, about $1.7 billion is not linked to the number of jobs. We'll reduce the job-linked tax credits to $720m. So, now we are down to about $9 billion.

Guess what? Amazon says it's going to add 5000 employees to NYC anyway, with no tax breaks. Almost none of the expected income is corporate taxes (surprise!), it's income and sales taxes on employees. That means Amazon's additional workforce will still pay another $1.25 billion in taxes. So, now we are down to $7.75 billion. Over 24 years.

Let's shave off another chunk, shall we? The reality is that Amazon wasn't going to put HQ2.5 in Oneonta, meaning they weren't going to import 25,000 new employees to NY (city and/or state); in fact, a big reason why they wanted to open another HQ in NYC is because the techie employees they want are already here and/or were already planning to move to NYC. And they weren't $150k/yr jobs for high school grads; Amazon wants highly educated employees, the kind that have no problem finding work in NYC today. So, what are we down to now? Maybe $4 billion in additional tax revenues over 24 years, based on $2 billion in subsidies? Somehow, Amazon fleeing because it didn't want to tolerate unions doesn't seem like such a huge loss.

Ultimately, it seems pretty clear that Amazon needs NYC far, far more than NYC needs Amazon.

I will say there is no guarantee that those funds will be used for future job development. However, it's clear that lots of people just grabbed a big number and ran with it, without bothering to even think about it.

Posted on: 2/23 22:54
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And AOC's Green New Deal tour coming up is being funded by left wing billionaires.... your point is what?

Less than two months in office... how exactly does her touring the country promoting her "brand" help her Queens constituents. She really needs more OJT on Capitol Hill.

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Dolomiti wrote:
Unsurprisingly, AOC flipped the script on her billboard critics, pointing out that it's funded by billionaires (notably the Mercers, big Trump backers), who are clearly not trying to reach local Queens / New Yorkers with a billboard in Times Square.

http://gothamist.com/2019/02/21/aoc_times_square_billboard.php


Posted on: 2/22 22:54
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Tax revenue 27 billion, tax break generated from that 3 billion. AOC is as stupid about math as she is on everything else.

Why, because she doesn't think NYC should bend over backwards for a corporate behemoth?

This was not a free lunch. Amazon was not gifting NYC with billions in tax revenues. See post #153 above.


No, its because she stated she would rather spend "the capital" elsewhere. There is no capital, Amazon is the capital, and the tax breaks were future breaks that hinge on their job creation numbers. BU cum laude degree in economics apparently isn't worth all that much.

Hopefully she was a better bartender - she should go back to working for tips.

And I'm a liberal.

You also happen to be wrong.

There definitely was capital involved. In fact, $1.8 billion is NOT tax breaks, it is actual outlays from NYC and NY to Amazon:

Amazon will receive $897 million from the city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) and $386 million from the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP). It will receive an additional $505 million in a capital grant and $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits if its job creation goals are met. That brings the total amount of public funds granted to $2.988 billion—in other words, the city and state will pay Amazon $48,000 per job.
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/11/16/18098 ... ong-island-city-explained

And again, these grand plans have a way of not working out. Companies employ fewer people than promised, or the jobs aren't as good as promised, or they find ways to avoid paying taxes. Amazon even threatened to leave Seattle because it didn't want to pay a proposed tax.

Sounds like someone was paying attention....


Dude, there is no capital in some hidden account being handed over. The REAP and ICAP funds were refundable tax credits that Amazon would have been given.

Posted on: 2/22 19:00
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Dolomiti wrote:
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slim26 wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Tax revenue 27 billion, tax break generated from that 3 billion. AOC is as stupid about math as she is on everything else.

Why, because she doesn't think NYC should bend over backwards for a corporate behemoth?

This was not a free lunch. Amazon was not gifting NYC with billions in tax revenues. See post #153 above.


No, its because she stated she would rather spend "the capital" elsewhere. There is no capital, Amazon is the capital, and the tax breaks were future breaks that hinge on their job creation numbers. BU cum laude degree in economics apparently isn't worth all that much.

Hopefully she was a better bartender - she should go back to working for tips.

And I'm a liberal.

You also happen to be wrong.

There definitely was capital involved. In fact, $1.8 billion is NOT tax breaks, it is actual outlays from NYC and NY to Amazon:

Amazon will receive $897 million from the city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) and $386 million from the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP). It will receive an additional $505 million in a capital grant and $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits if its job creation goals are met. That brings the total amount of public funds granted to $2.988 billion—in other words, the city and state will pay Amazon $48,000 per job.
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/11/16/18098 ... ong-island-city-explained

And again, these grand plans have a way of not working out. Companies employ fewer people than promised, or the jobs aren't as good as promised, or they find ways to avoid paying taxes. Amazon even threatened to leave Seattle because it didn't want to pay a proposed tax.

Sounds like someone was paying attention....


Big part: "if its job creation goals are met" - thus future tax breaks hinged on their ability to generate the tax revenue

Posted on: 2/22 18:48
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Unsurprisingly, AOC flipped the script on her billboard critics, pointing out that it's funded by billionaires (notably the Mercers, big Trump backers), who are clearly not trying to reach local Queens / New Yorkers with a billboard in Times Square.

http://gothamist.com/2019/02/21/aoc_times_square_billboard.php


Posted on: 2/22 16:37
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slim26 wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Tax revenue 27 billion, tax break generated from that 3 billion. AOC is as stupid about math as she is on everything else.

Why, because she doesn't think NYC should bend over backwards for a corporate behemoth?

This was not a free lunch. Amazon was not gifting NYC with billions in tax revenues. See post #153 above.


No, its because she stated she would rather spend "the capital" elsewhere. There is no capital, Amazon is the capital, and the tax breaks were future breaks that hinge on their job creation numbers. BU cum laude degree in economics apparently isn't worth all that much.

Hopefully she was a better bartender - she should go back to working for tips.

And I'm a liberal.

You also happen to be wrong.

There definitely was capital involved. In fact, $1.8 billion is NOT tax breaks, it is actual outlays from NYC and NY to Amazon:

Amazon will receive $897 million from the city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) and $386 million from the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP). It will receive an additional $505 million in a capital grant and $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits if its job creation goals are met. That brings the total amount of public funds granted to $2.988 billion—in other words, the city and state will pay Amazon $48,000 per job.
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/11/16/18098 ... ong-island-city-explained

And again, these grand plans have a way of not working out. Companies employ fewer people than promised, or the jobs aren't as good as promised, or they find ways to avoid paying taxes. Amazon even threatened to leave Seattle because it didn't want to pay a proposed tax.

Sounds like someone was paying attention....

Posted on: 2/22 15:57
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AOC earned a degree in economics? and ended up bartending? and then her career took a turn for the worse ending up in Congress.




Quote:

slim26 wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Tax revenue 27 billion, tax break generated from that 3 billion. AOC is as stupid about math as she is on everything else.

Why, because she doesn't think NYC should bend over backwards for a corporate behemoth?

This was not a free lunch. Amazon was not gifting NYC with billions in tax revenues. See post #153 above.


No, its because she stated she would rather spend "the capital" elsewhere. There is no capital, Amazon is the capital, and the tax breaks were future breaks that hinge on their job creation numbers. BU cum laude degree in economics apparently isn't worth all that much.

Hopefully she was a better bartender - she should go back to working for tips.

And I'm a liberal.

Posted on: 2/21 23:13
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Tax revenue 27 billion, tax break generated from that 3 billion. AOC is as stupid about math as she is on everything else.

Why, because she doesn't think NYC should bend over backwards for a corporate behemoth?

This was not a free lunch. Amazon was not gifting NYC with billions in tax revenues. See post #153 above.


No, its because she stated she would rather spend "the capital" elsewhere. There is no capital, Amazon is the capital, and the tax breaks were future breaks that hinge on their job creation numbers. BU cum laude degree in economics apparently isn't worth all that much.

Hopefully she was a better bartender - she should go back to working for tips.

And I'm a liberal.

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Tax revenue 27 billion, tax break generated from that 3 billion. AOC is as stupid about math as she is on everything else.

Why, because she doesn't think NYC should bend over backwards for a corporate behemoth?

This was not a free lunch. Amazon was not gifting NYC with billions in tax revenues. See post #153 above.

Posted on: 2/21 17:29
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Tax revenue 27 billion, tax break generated from that 3 billion. AOC is as stupid about math as she is on everything else.

Posted on: 2/21 14:42
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Who paid for that billboard? Hardly a groundswell of disgruntled [would be] workers in Queens:


The Job Creators Network (JCN) is a conservative and advocacy group founded by Home Depot co-founder and former CEO Bernie Marcus.[1] It is funded mainly by corporate executives and conservative foundations including the Mercer Family Foundation, and has been extensively promoted by far-right website Breitbart.[2][3]


Robin.

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.
(Times Square billboard)


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as if AOC sank this all by herself! People just mad because she won't support crony capitalism.

Posted on: 2/21 3:43
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(Times Square billboard)


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Wow. Amazing like many here she still doesnt get it.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/20/alexandr ... t-understand-amazon-deal/
i think she gets it: i just think many don't like what she got. amazon deal is toast. i'm not losing any sleep over the loss of a helipad.

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who is still surprised at this point? She's quintessential of this day and age, huge personality and full of aggression and nothing to show for it.

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135jc wrote:
Wow. Amazing like many here she still doesnt get it.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/20/alexandr ... t-understand-amazon-deal/

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Wow. Amazing like many here she still doesnt get it.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/20/alexandr ... t-understand-amazon-deal/

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The loss of amazon. Let me chew on that.

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Whew, that's some list.

I'm going to rely on the two major NY magazines and THE ATLANTIC to dig into the minutiae of the deal. It's a pretty interesting story.

Posted on: 2/18 17:09
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The only people really getting screwed are the real estate speculators who thought they could screw Amazon employees by purchasing apartments now, and selling or renting high in a few years. A life lesson for those who think there is such a thing as a sure winner in real estate...


Deliciously sadistic...!

scha·den·freu·de
noun

noun: Schadenfreude; noun: schadenfreude
pleasure derived by someone from another person's misfortune.


About the job creation promise, I don't think there is good reason to assume, or believe, that the numbers would not have materialized. Amazon is growing tremendously, mostly because of their AWS business unit, which is crushing the competition and is extremely profitable. I don't have a single client that is not using AWS, or seriously considering moving some, or all, services to that platform. It is the MAIN reason why Amazon has remained so profitable.

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If people read Amazon's statement they would see the part where Amazon says they already have 5,000 workers in NYC and they will add more. NYC is going to get the tax revenue from these workers and not have to give the world's richest man any incentives.


A good portion of those existing jobs are not the type of high paying jobs that would have come from having HQ2 here. The cumulative loss in salaries is almost 4 BILLION annually.

You're assuming that the only way those people would be hired in NYC is via Amazon, and that makes no sense.

A big reason why Amazon wanted to put HQ2.5 in NYC, and still plans to add 5,000 jobs in NYC, is because this is one of the few cities that has the kind of educated workforce Amazon is looking for. As bodhipooh pointed out, Amazon might not even want to set up a big office in (downtown) Newark -- which is fairly easy to get to from most of the NYC area -- if it doesn't think it can attract those elite educated workers.

I.e. Most (not all, but most) of those workers will simply work somewhere else. Plus, the land will almost certainly be put to some other use, which will in turn generate tax revenues and economic activity.

The deal itself included:
• Skipping the entire land use process
• Allowing Amazon to ignore regulations on the lot
• Smoothing the rezoning process
• NYC pays Amazon $1.2 billion right off the bat (not a tax cut, actual disbursement)
• Another $1.7 billion if job creation goals met (not a tax cut, actual disbursement)
• Amazon would have also used a PILOT program (everyone's favorite), very likely reducing its NYC tax liabilities for decades

Amazon didn't want HQ2.5 in NYC out of the goodness of their hearts, either. They chose it because it already has and draws the employees it wants, and because NY and NYC bent over for them. They had no interest in working with the community, and dropped at the first signs of pushback.


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The state (and the city) bent over backwards because the the projected revenue from those 25K jobs would have paid for those incentives over time, and then some.

Yeah, yeah. We hear these kinds of claims all the time, only to see the companies take the money and renege on job creation, or threaten to leave in order to get more incentives and/or tax cuts.

Amazon will be fine, NYC will be fine, Queens will be fine. The only people really getting screwed are the real estate speculators who thought they could screw Amazon employees by purchasing apartments now, and selling or renting high in a few years. A life lesson for those who think there is such a thing as a sure winner in real estate...

Posted on: 2/18 16:23
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Re: New Amazon HQ
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RichMauro wrote:
A large question remains to be answered: there were other cities and states offering quite a bit more in incentives. For instance, Newark had about six billion dollars in the pot. So why did Amazon choose the NY area? They had to know that Unions were going to scramble to get into their buildings (they're presently trying to organize a hundred million dollar Staten Island distribution center). When this thing is looked at under closer scrutiny I've a feeling that more reasoning of a personal nature (read Bezos) will come to light. There's more than meets the eye and good investigative journalism will uncover it.


Again, as with many other cities that were spurned, Newark just didn't have the wanted/desired amenities that the Amazon workforce would seek out or desire. And, in addition to that, there is the matter of not enough IT talent to fill up those 15K (or, more) tech-related positions in the local pool. Not many people want to do the reverse commute from NYC. Anecdotal, but I can say that two clients of mine based in Newark always have a hard time filling out IT positions with the right qualified candidate.

Posted on: 2/18 15:45
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You could be right... if I remember correctly The Mayor's first term had all sorts of political / pay to play corruption investigations, though he somehow skated through that minefield.

Now he wants to be President and Bezos/WaPo support would be a +++. He would never get that support from NYT unless he was the democrat nominee. Can you imagine the demographic data Amazon has?



Quote:

RichMauro wrote:
A large question remains to be answered: there were other cities and states offering quite a bit more in incentives. For instance, Newark had about six billion dollars in the pot. So why did Amazon choose the NY area? They had to know that Unions were going to scramble to get into their buildings (they're presently trying to organize a hundred million dollar Staten Island distribution center). When this thing is looked at under closer scrutiny I've a feeling that more reasoning of a personal nature (read Bezos) will come to light. There's more than meets the eye and good investigative journalism will uncover it.

Posted on: 2/18 15:25
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