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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
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how is there not more noise from every overtaxed owner? You'd think class action lawyers would be all over this one.

I hear fever pitch bleating from DTJC owners who have not paid their fair share in decades and a lullaby from those who have been subsidizing said rowhouse owners.

I do not get it...

Posted on: 5/25 22:16
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Yvonne wrote:
Let me repeat, JC will never have a fair revaluation as long as $2.7 billion worth of property is excluded from the process. After the revaluation that $2.7 billion will probably be close to $11 billion. So what is the $11 billion? It is tax abated properties. This $11 billion does not include schools, churches, cemeteries, or public property. It includes commerical and housing that has a tax abatement. I can understand 5 year tax abatements. But anything longer is cheating the public.


The revaluation of ratable properties has NOTHING to do with abatements. It's about fairness between taxpayers on those ratable properties. You once again blow smoke to obscure the issues, and pointedly ignore Dolomiti's request for the slightest bit of compassion for the people who have overpaid while you and others underpaid.

And don't start with that same stupid bullshit "I paid the taxes I was billed". You didn't. You stated that you appealed them 5 times in a row, pleading that you had no walls. But it doesn't seem that you ever got reassessed after completing the renovation, like you should have. Did you? So you paid taxes for another 20 odd years as if your fabulous brownstone were gutted out. Nicely done.

Posted on: 5/25 22:08
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Let me repeat, JC will never have a fair revaluation as long as $2.7 billion worth of property is excluded from the process. After the revaluation that $2.7 billion will probably be close to $11 billion. So what is the $11 billion? It is tax abated properties. This $11 billion does not include schools, churches, cemeteries, or public property. It includes commerical and housing that has a tax abatement. I can understand 5 year tax abatements. But anything longer is cheating the public.

Posted on: 5/25 21:18
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Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
brewster:
The letters I wrote had to do with these subjects...

Don't change the subject.

Are you happy that one person underpays their taxes for years, knowing full well that means someone else is overpaying their taxes?

Should we feel sorry for someone whose taxes are going up, because the value of their home increased from $150k to $1.5 million?

Did delaying the reval make that better or worse?



Did I give the assessment to individual property owners? Did I stop the revaluation or did the mayor stop the revaluation? My attendance at meetings has nothing to do with the revaluation starting for stopping. I know you will like to link the two but your comments have no merit.

Your comments on this board have been exclusively about how terrible the reval is, how it's only going to hurt people, and so forth.

You have never expressed a single bit of sympathy for the people who are overpaying their taxes.

You have never expressed any interest in making the system more fair.

It doesn't occur to you that the people whose taxes are going up have been getting a deal for years -- at another taxpayer's expense.

When I ask you point blank about the people hurt by the status quo, you deflect, you ignore.

You express zero acknowledgement, or sympathy, or recognition of the other half of the problem. Not even an iota.

<< shakes head >>

Posted on: 5/25 21:07
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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
brewster:
The letters I wrote had to do with these subjects...

Don't change the subject.

Are you happy that one person underpays their taxes for years, knowing full well that means someone else is overpaying their taxes?

Should we feel sorry for someone whose taxes are going up, because the value of their home increased from $150k to $1.5 million?

Did delaying the reval make that better or worse?


The mayor attended my block association meeting with the reval team. The phrase of the evening was "do the math". The tax rate will drop accordingly but the assessments will rise exponentially. Just look at the mayor's home, it's current assessment and what he paid, his taxes will double. Assessed properties will be based on age, condition, but most of all the most recent sale price. Market values will dictate the new assessment. Do the math.

Posted on: 5/25 20:35
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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
brewster:
The letters I wrote had to do with these subjects...

Don't change the subject.

Are you happy that one person underpays their taxes for years, knowing full well that means someone else is overpaying their taxes?

Should we feel sorry for someone whose taxes are going up, because the value of their home increased from $150k to $1.5 million?

Did delaying the reval make that better or worse?



Did I give the assessment to individual property owners? Did I stop the revaluation or did the mayor stop the revaluation? My attendance at meetings has nothing to do with the revaluation starting for stopping. I know you will like to link the two but your comments have no merit.

Posted on: 5/25 20:33
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Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
brewster:
The letters I wrote had to do with these subjects...

Don't change the subject.

Are you happy that one person underpays their taxes for years, knowing full well that means someone else is overpaying their taxes?

Should we feel sorry for someone whose taxes are going up, because the value of their home increased from $150k to $1.5 million?

Did delaying the reval make that better or worse?


Posted on: 5/25 20:13
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brewster:
The letters I wrote had to do with these subjects:
1. City bonding for $128 million for fiscal year adjustment bonds when the city change the calendar to a fiscal year, by the way, the city returned to the original calendar year in 2012. They should have bonded for $30 million, instead the city bonded for $128 million. We are still paying off those bonds.
2. Schundler continued the practice of bonding for operating expense.
3. Schundler privatized the water, rates went up.
4. Several administrations reduced the tax abatement agreements in favor of the developer.
5. The city giving out tax abatements on prime property
6. The city giving non-bidding contracts to their friends
7. The city raising fees and water rates while pretending they are stabilizing taxes.
8. The city is giving away public land.
9. The city does not enforce their agreements with hiring local residents
10. The city creating Redevelopment zones in order to bypass local zoning.
11. The city selling parking lots and then later renting parking for municipal employees.
12. I can go on but this has nothing to do with me stopping the revaluation process.


Posted on: 5/25 18:05
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Yvonne wrote:
How did your article prove I am lying, Dolomiti?

I did not accuse you of lying. I pointed out that the law did not give the purchaser of the liens the ability to foreclose any faster than if the city had done it, and that you omitted how it dramatically increased compliance.


Quote:
Your article states the fact the Schundler had a bunk lien sale. Where did these homes come from?

It came from people who failed or refused to pay their property taxes. The city took out a lien, and then (with permission of the state legislature) sold the lien.


Quote:
People do not choose to give up their property to a lien buyer.

Property owners have a responsibility to pay their property taxes. If they can't afford it, then unfortunately they need to do something about it.

If they refuse, then they will have a lien placed on their property, and run the risk of foreclosure.


Quote:
McDonald from the JJ had the 1988 revaluation march in the papers recently.

So what?

Do you actually believe, at this point, that anything in that article is news to me?

Do you not understand that thousands of JC residents are paying MORE in taxes right now than they should?

Do you not recognize that the refusal to reval compounds the unfairness of the problem? And only makes it worse when the city actually does it?

And from whence should my sympathy spring forth? For example, the article you linked discusses Ms Narciso. Her home is assessed by the City at $145k; Zillow estimates its value at $1.6 million. She currently pays around $11,200 in property taxes, and should be paying $30k.

Yes, that's a big jump. You know what else that means? It means that she's been getting a tax break to the tune of $15,000 and up for years.

She got a huge tax break for decades/ Her home has shot up in value. A reval was inevitable. She should've been prepared.

Now, I will grant you that on one hand, it sucks that a 71 year old woman may have to move because her property taxes went up. That said, her home is worth somewhere around $1.6 million. There should be NO QUESTION that she can afford to buy something decent in JC, in her price range, with property taxes she can afford, AND take a vacation in Paris for a week to boot.

Request for sympathy: Denied.

Posted on: 5/25 17:41
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Only someone who was a complete moron, or underwater on a loan with no equity to lose, would ever let their home go into lien sale or not redeem it afterwards.

As for your role Yvonne, you have spent decades loudmouthing at Council meetings and other public hearings as well as writing endless letters to editors. You have nursed this monster. You're like an arsonist hanging around watching the fire saying "terrible fire, eh. People should be more careful".

But you can't hear any of this, it just doesn't process. You're like one of the Androids on Westworld that are programmed to not comprehend talk of or artifacts from beyond the park. With a black hat.

Posted on: 5/25 16:45

Edited by brewster on 2017/5/25 17:00:42
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How did your article prove I am lying, Dolomiti? Your article states the fact the Schundler had a bunk lien sale. Where did these homes come from? No one walks away from their homes so the city can sell them in a lien sale. People do not choose to give up their property to a lien buyer. This lien sale happened several years after the revaluation because homeowners were unable to pay the taxes.
There was a reason people marched as a protest. They had tax bills they were unable to pay. McDonald from the JJ had the 1988 revaluation march in the papers recently.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... g_homeowners_anxious.html

Posted on: 5/25 16:32
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Yvonne wrote:
By selling the bulk lien, that line was satisfied with the lien sale, not by taxpayers. So taxes got reduced. The state legislation had to be change in order for this to happened. Here is the downside, it allowed lien owners to aggressively foreclose sooner on properties.

Yeah... no.

The law did not change in a way that accelerated the time frame for foreclosures. What it did was give the city money up-front, and spared it the effort of foreclosing on tax delinquents.

You also ignored how it increased compliance from 78% to 99%.


Quote:
Many of those properties in that lien were small homeowners who couldnot pay their taxes from the revaluation.

So what?

Those homeowners were getting a big tax break for years, and had plenty of time to prepare and/or sell their homes long before any foreclosure proceedings.

And why did their taxes go up? Because the value of their property increased, far in excess of what the city estimated.

This is like someone winning $300,000 in the lottery, taking it all at once, spending it all in 6 months, and then finding out that they have to pay income tax on it.

I realize that life, law, taxes and real estate are complex. However, if you lost a $300,000 home because you didn't pay $10,000 in property taxes? 4 years after the reval? That's not the city's fault. If you own property, it is your responsibility to pay the taxes. If you can't afford the taxes, that sucks, but it's your responsibility to deal with it.

At some point, you have to take responsibility for your own mistakes.

I am also slightly disgusted that you have no sympathy whatsoever for the people who are overpaying their property taxes. Does no one face financial hardship because they're dealing with unfair property tax burdens?

Are you happy that families in Bergen-Lafayette and Greenville are paying your taxes? You good with that? That work for you?

It's not the reval that is unfair. It is the DELAYS in the reval that make the system unfair. What part of that is unclear to you?

Posted on: 5/25 16:06
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Brewster, Great info in Post #136. I knew Yvonne was blowing smoke, as usual, citing "people lost their homes" and "aggressive foreclosures" without a shred of proof or even direct citation. I was looking for the details on rights of the lien-holder vs. the property owner but you beat me to it. If you can't pay your bills, you sell and pay those bills, including back taxes/liens. It's simple unless you sit on your can and wait until the shit hits the fan and then it's too late. You snooze, you lose...

Yvonne, I'm actually glad the Webmaster didn't take down this thread even though Brewster called you out in some pretty harsh terms. I'm gonna guess that those of us who've been around this Forum for a bunch of years mostly agree with him. You can dish it out, often with a bunch of anecdotal comments or references, but you can't take it when someone fires back with facts. You need a reality check-

Posted on: 5/25 15:37
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brewster, I am not a mayor or councilperson in JC. Neither am I a state offical that has allowed JC to avoid a revaluation once the figures go below 15% of assessment. Attacking me for the fault of government makes no sense. I am stating what happened in 1988. Hopefully, this reval will go better, however, I still believe no revaluation will be fair as long as JC gives out tax abatements because those properties are not affected while the abatement exists.

Posted on: 5/25 15:24
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We all know it is unpopular and no sitting Mayor wanted this to be done on their watch.

Posted on: 5/25 14:25
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The main reason we have this traumatic reval now is you and people like you who created such terror around revals that revals became the 3rd rail of local politics. No one dared do one when they should have in 1998 and for 15 years after. And you're doing it again. You have no alternative to offer, you just want people scared. I have no idea why, except maybe it makes you feel powerful.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
It is not fearmongering, it is what happened after the 1988 revaluation. Some of these liens resulted in lawsuits. I mention earlier Judge Velasquez ruled on this, that story was in the Jersey Journal pre-online edition but I am sure you can find it in the archives. By the way, Newark was forced to do a reval some years later. They put in a 5 year step program based on the problems with JC.

Posted on: 5/25 14:20
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It is not fearmongering, it is what happened after the 1988 revaluation. Some of these liens resulted in lawsuits. I mention earlier Judge Velasquez ruled on this, that story was in the Jersey Journal pre-online edition but I am sure you can find it in the archives. By the way, Newark was forced to do a reval some years later. They put in a 5 year step program based on the problems with JC.

Posted on: 5/25 14:07
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Real information, not fearmongering. You have to really screw up to actually lose your home. It's designed to give you many opportunities to straighten the situation out. Bottom line, pay your taxes or sell your house, don't screw around.

http://www.nj.gov/dca/divisions/dlgs/ ... ments_of_tax_sales_nj.pdf

Elements of Tax Sales in New Jersey
New Jersey law requires all 566 municipalities to hold at least one tax sale per year, if the municipality has delinquent
property taxes and/or municipal charges. You can obtain information on upcoming tax sales by contacting the tax
collector in the municipality in question, or from the web site of the Tax Collectors & Treasurers Association of New
Jersey: www.tctanj.org/taxsale.html. More detailed information on the tax sale process in New Jersey can be found at
www.njtaxlieninvestor.com*.

In New Jersey, property taxes are a continuous lien on the real estate. Property taxes are due in four installments
during the year: February 1, May 1, August 1, and November 1. Delinquency on a property may accrue interest at up
to 8 per cent for the first $1,500 due, and 18 per cent for any amount over $1,500. If the amount of delinquency on a
property exceeds $10,000 at the end of the municipal fiscal year, the municipality may charge up to a 6 per cent yearend
penalty.

At the tax sale, title to the delinquent property itself is not sold. What is sold is a tax sale certificate, a lien on the
property. Tax sale certificates can earn interest of up to 18 per cent, depending on the winning percentage bid at the
auction. At the auction, bidders bid down the interest rate that will be paid by the owner for continuing interest on the
certificate amount. If the interest is bid down to one per cent, then a “premium,” is bid starting at $0 to whenever the
bidding stops to obtain the tax sale certificate. The premium is kept on deposit with the municipality for up to five
years. If the tax sale certificate is not redeemed, or the property foreclosed upon within the five year period, then the
premium escheats to the municipality. No interest accrues on the premium to the benefit of the buyer of the tax sale
certificate.

The winning bidder is the one who bids the lowest percentage of interest or bids the highest premium. Bidders are
urged to contact the Tax Collector for local payment restrictions before the sale) At the close of the sale, the winning
bidder must immediately pay (pursuant to the local restrictions) the municipality the taxes and interest to date; in
exchange the municipality will provide the bidder the tax sale certificate. In order for the winning lien holder to protect
their interest in the tax sale certificate, it should be recorded in the Deed Room at the County Clerk’s Office within 90
days of the sale.

Taxes continue to accrue on the property after the sale of the certificate. Bidders have the option to pay these
subsequent taxes; if they are not paid, a tax sale certificate will be sold at the next tax sale. Any subsequent certificate
issued will be paramount to any prior certificate. Subsequent taxes paid by the lien holder earn interest at the rate set
by the municipality.

If the certificate is redeemed by the property owner prior to foreclosure, the certificate earns a redemption penalty at
the rate of 2, 4, or 6 percent, depending on the amount of the original tax sale certificate, in addition to any interest
rate on the certificate.

After two years, a lien holder can begin proceedings in Superior Court to foreclose on the property. If foreclosure is
perfected, then the name on the deed is changed to that of the lien holder who can then take possession of the
property.

This information is intended only as a short introduction to the tax sale process in New Jersey, and not as investment
advice. There is no substitute for learning as much about investing in tax sale certificates from the many sources
available, both online and in print. As with all investments, the investor must do his or her due diligence when
investing in tax sale certificates. Unlike more “passive” investments, like certificates of deposit, or stocks and bonds,
tax sale certificates require “active” follow up and management by the investor. By posting this notice, the State of
New Jersey neither recommends nor discourages investment in tax sale certificates, and makes no guarantee of profit
or positive result from such investment.

Posted on: 5/25 13:52
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Thanks for posting the NY Times article. Here is how Schundler lowered the tax rate with the bulk lien sale. In the budget is a line item that says "reserved for uncollected taxes." This is the amount of money taxpayers must put in for taxpayers who are delinquent. The year before bulk lien sale, taxpayers put in $36 million. By selling the bulk lien, that line was satisfied with the lien sale, not by taxpayers. So taxes got reduced. The state legislation had to be change in order for this to happened. Here is the downside, it allowed lien owners to aggressively foreclose sooner on properties. Many of those properties in that lien were small homeowners who couldnot pay their taxes from the revaluation. It is how homes assessed at $200,000 or $300,000 were sold for $10,000. Some were shady lien holders who did everything they could not to have liens redeemed.

Posted on: 5/25 11:03
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Yvonne wrote:
brewster, I do not speak to anyone that way you speak to me.


Believe it or not you are the only person on earth I speak to this way, because you are the pinnacle of loudmouthed, fearmongering, hatemongering, pious, self righteous hypocrisy. At least in JC. Your man in the White House may have you beat.

Posted on: 5/24 16:55
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Demand side of the equation is a wee bit stronger now than in the crack war days of the early 90s...

Posted on: 5/24 15:25
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2001 NYT article which discusses the bulk liens:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/19/nyr ... put-2=schundler+bulk+lien

Mr. Schundler prides himself on finding creative approaches to solving problems. And his earliest coup may stand up as his signal financial accomplishment. In the early 1990's, Jersey City property tax bills were so high that many people, unable to pay, were losing their homes to foreclosure. The city's tax collection rate fell so low at 78 percent that its budget was snowballing: it had to set aside as much money in each year's budget as was uncollected the year before.

Mr. Schundler broke that cycle.

After winning a special election in November 1992, Mr. Schundler, a former Wall Street broker and analyst, won a full term the following spring by promising a huge tax cut based on a bold, but complex idea. He found a way to recoup millions in back taxes the city had failed to collect. It took a special state law, which the Legislature's Republican leaders pushed through on his behalf.

The plan: Jersey City would bundle delinquent tax liens and sell them in bulk to underwriters, for $25 million in cash and a note for $19 million more. The underwriters would issue bonds, to be paid off as they collected back taxes or foreclosed on the properties.

It did not all go smoothly. Collections dragged out far longer than anticipated. Homeowners sued the underwriter, and in July were awarded $30 million in damages. Jersey City also sued the underwriters when its note went unpaid, and received a settlement of just $6.25 million.

Still, the bulk-lien deals dramatically improved the city's tax collections, as many property owners paid their taxes faster out of fear of foreclosure. For the last four years, the tax collection rate has been better than 99 percent. The city's reserve for uncollected taxes, meanwhile, is just $2.5 million, down from $25 million in 1993.

Henry A. Coleman, director of the Rutgers Center for Government Services, who studied the bulk lien sale, said Mr. Schundler brought many city properties back from tax delinquency. ''That's something he deserves credit for,'' he said.


Maybe that could happen again in the future, but... I sort of doubt it.

At any rate, it sounds like the foreclosures were happening before the liens, and people paid their taxes after the liens were sold.

Posted on: 5/24 15:11
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Yvonne, you are impenetrably dense. You lie to scare people and then try and cover it with meaningless anecdotes.

What's outrageous is that you've been doing this for 30 years. Mayors come and go but Yvonne is always there to terrify them out of ordering a reval. You might be as responsible as any politician for the current mess, and you've benefitted from it by hundreds of thousands of dollars between tax savings on your under assessed property and selling it for way more than it would be worth with an accurate assessment.



brewster, I do not speak to anyone that way you speak to me. I am giving you facts that happened. You don't agree and shame on you for making this personal. It is not personal with me except I saw neighbors, long time neighbors lose their homes. You have an anger mangement problem, I suggest help.

Posted on: 5/24 12:10
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Yvonne is the deep state of Jersey City

Posted on: 5/24 11:44
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Yvonne, you are impenetrably dense. You lie to scare people and then try and cover it with meaningless anecdotes.

What's outrageous is that you've been doing this for 30 years. Mayors come and go but Yvonne is always there to terrify them out of ordering a reval. You might be as responsible as any politician for the current mess, and you've benefitted from it by hundreds of thousands of dollars between tax savings on your under assessed property and selling it for way more than it would be worth with an accurate assessment.


Posted on: 5/24 11:38
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brewster wrote:
Yvonne, none of that anecdote substatiates your statement:

"former Mayor Schundler started his 'bunk lien' sale and sold homes assessed for $200,000 to $300,00 for the price of back taxes."

It's simply not true, and inflammatory. Homes under a tax liens are NOT sold for just the outstanding tax. Not now, not ever.

That's a LIE!!!

You're fearmongering as you've done for 30 years. A homeowner under lien can simply sell their home and walk away after paying their taxes. Only a fool, or someone with no equity anyway, will take the reduced sale price associated with the lien sale process.


Were you around? That is my question. You are not answering but keep yelling that I lie. The proof as they say will be in the pudding. There will be a fire sale of properties like there was in 1988. The one third that goes up will be heading to tax court, the reason the ratable base dropped from $6.5 after reval (it was $800 million before reval) to $5.1 by 1991. The tax appeals dropped the ratable base which caused taxes to rise. The first fire sale were developers who had many properties. A woman I work with brought a home on Varick, which was fully restored for $150,000 even though it was assessed for $250,000. By the way JC ratable base is now $6.2 billion. Some of Schundler's tax abatements expired. All tax abatements rob the city of ratables and forces taxes up.

Posted on: 5/24 8:56
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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
Home away from home
Home away from home


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Yvonne, none of that anecdote substatiates your statement:

"former Mayor Schundler started his 'bunk lien' sale and sold homes assessed for $200,000 to $300,00 for the price of back taxes."

It's simply not true, and inflammatory. Homes under a tax liens are NOT sold for just the outstanding tax. Not now, not ever.

That's a LIE!!!

You're fearmongering as you've done for 30 years. A homeowner under lien can simply sell their home and walk away after paying their taxes. Only a fool, or someone with no equity anyway, will take the reduced sale price associated with the lien sale process.

Posted on: 5/23 23:10
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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
Quite a regular
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Quote:


Depends on rates, if you assume your buyer is borrowing and has a fixed monthly nut in mind. $12k more in tax means $1k less in borrowing power. At 4.5% on a 30 yr, $1000 gets you $200k. So assuming the buyer has the extra downpayment, they're budget is $200k less than it was pre-reval.

Yvonne, prove what you're saying, otherwise it's more lies. Tax liens are sold at auction and the residual after taxes and loans are paid is returned to the owner.


Quite correct. So assuming $24K taxes at 1.9% taxes, the property would be at $1.26M. $200K reduction (because of increase in tax from 12 --> 24K) would be around 16% reduction in the property price or the new price would be $1.06M with new taxes around $20K @1.9%.

Quite circular. By the way, because of reduction of taxes from $24K to $20K gives you $4K to renovate the place!

So yeah, 15% decline assumption is around correct + $4K in your hand.

Posted on: 5/23 22:01
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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
Home away from home
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Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

mfadam wrote:
Let's say the typical DTJC rowhouse goes from about 12K in taxes to 24K - a simple double. What do you think that does to post-Reval valuations?

Maybe 15% haircut?


Depends on rates, if you assume your buyer is borrowing and has a fixed monthly nut in mind. $12k more in tax means $1k less in borrowing power. At 4.5% on a 30 yr, $1000 gets you $200k. So assuming the buyer has the extra downpayment, they're budget is $200k less than it was pre-reval.

Yvonne, prove what you're saying, otherwise it's more lies. Tax liens are sold at auction and the residual after taxes and loans are paid is returned to the owner.


Were you around when the bulk lien was going on? I was, I had neighbors in the lien sale and the buyers of these liens did not want to sell back the liens. The way the law is written, you have two years to foreclose. A neighbor who lost his wife to cancer fell behind after reval, there was one salary then. He continued to pay his current taxes but the lien holder was avoiding him for the lien he brought. He was lucky that his nephew spent money to hire an attorney to sue to lien holder. Some of this actually wound up in Judge Velesquez court. I don't think the Jersey Journal was on line then, but I am sure this information is somewhere is the archives of the Jersey Journal. By the way, the lien holder was charging 18% plus other fees. I do not know why you insist you know everything. I was very involved in the reval with the people who was actually suing the city. The case was drop when McCann became mayor. But, you were not around in this inner circle.

Posted on: 5/23 22:01
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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
Just can't stay away
Just can't stay away


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I remember when Jersey City was just a nice place to live.
Wha hoppen??

Posted on: 5/23 21:24
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