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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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edg2103 wrote:
Quote:

OneSkirt wrote:
I suggest we all...
TAKE THE SURVEY HERE: https://goo.gl/forms/WTzyEUO8k71koVcw2

consider what this huge density jump will do to traffic - on roads, in public transit, etc.


A dirty little secret about the PATH train is that they run service at precisely the frequency that makes sure it is packed NO MATTER how many riders there are...I've seen trains packed at 11am, when the ridership volume is about 1/3 of what it is at rush hour. Why? Because they run less frequently when there are fewer riders. Why do you think they only run it once every 35 minutes at night or only once every 10/15 minutes at 8pm or at noon? If you have more riders, they will provide more frequent service. The only true bottleneck is at rush hour. But the PA's latest capital plan calls for buying more cars now that the new signal system has been installed. That should increase frequency/capacity about 18% starting in 2018. Guess what? They never would've bought the cars to increase rush hour frequency if ridership hadn't increased. Capacity can further be increased about 50% in the future by accomodating 10-car trains and cars with open gangways. These aren't insanely expensive moves--they are feasible, and the PA has already done studies on 10-car operation and started construction on the station modifications that would be necessary.

Even if we leveled half of downtown into a giant parking lot (which many people here would love), the PATH would STILL be packed, because they'd just reduce service frequency to compensate. And on top of that, you'd be waiting 20 minutes for that packed train. That's exactly how the Staten Island Rapid Transit trains are run.

At the end of the day, more people actually means more frequent service on public transit.


Bravo!

Posted on: 1/30 18:00
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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I imagine the HPNA will share their data, but at this point they still want to hear more from residents.
People are also free to weigh in personally by attending public meetings and writing to JC.

Posted on: 1/30 15:46
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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diamat wrote:
Getting back to the initial purpose of this thread, please take the Hamilton Park Neighborhood Association's survey regarding the proposed redevelopment plan for Roberto Clemente Park, which includes 30 and 40 story buildings that would likely displace the main fire station on Marin and cast long shadows on the historic district and park, without promising sorely needed greenspace and public amenities:

http://hpnajc.org/News/4548492

And while some commenters here are in favor of reopening 7th Street to Marin Blvd, I'm strongly opposed, as this would drive significant Tunnel traffic from other areas through a quiet part of downtown without any benefit to our local community.


Does anybody really trust the HPNA to truthfully report the results of this survey? Neighborhood associations have lied in the past and used underhanded tactics in the past to achieve the desired outcome of their board members. For example, the VNA's recent attempt to change zoning behind its members backs and without real community input.

I'd like to see some independent person or someone not on the HPNA board to be able to verify the survey results and attest to their accuracy. I can almost guarantee they'll fudge the results to push for the absolute smallest thing that they can (and probably push to keep 7th St closed)

Posted on: 1/30 15:14
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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Getting back to the initial purpose of this thread, please take the Hamilton Park Neighborhood Association's survey regarding the proposed redevelopment plan for Roberto Clemente Park, which includes 30 and 40 story buildings that would likely displace the main fire station on Marin and cast long shadows on the historic district and park, without promising sorely needed greenspace and public amenities:

http://hpnajc.org/News/4548492

And while some commenters here are in favor of reopening 7th Street to Marin Blvd, I'm strongly opposed, as this would drive significant Tunnel traffic from other areas through a quiet part of downtown without any benefit to our local community.

Posted on: 1/30 15:04
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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Dolomiti, you seem to be missing the point. I'm not complaining that service frequencies aren't high enough in the day. I'm pointing out that they can be higher if they need to be to meet increasing ridership. In that sense, increased service frequency is a side benefit of increased population.

People who are against all new development complain that PATH is already full, as if there is no flexibility in frequency and capacity in PATH, but this is not true. PATH is far from its max capacity. There is lots of room to expand capacity as ridership increases. Since it costs money to do so, as you point out, the PA doesn't do so unless it has to (but it does if the ridership increases).

Quote:
10 car trains on all lines requires extending the Harrison Station. That's already in progress, and is not cheap.


Extension of Harrison Station is costing about $138m, according to the PA's 2014 Capital Plan. That might sound like a lot, but it's a drop in the bucket in the PA's $30B capital plan. And it's 1/9 of the $1.7 billion that the PA is spending to extend PATH to the airport to satisfy just 6,000 daily riders. The PA can cough up the money for 10-car service if it needs to for its 278,000 daily riders.

Quote:
Removing gangways will help, but it's not going to increase capacity by 25%.


It'll increase capacity about 10%, which, compounded with the 25%-43% increases enabled by the move from 7-8 car trains to 10 car trains, gives you 37%-57% increases in capacity.

Quote:
Since that requires buying all new cars, that is not cheap either. Feasible yes. Cheap no.


Railcars have limited service lives. You could add open gangway cars gradually as the demand increases and old cars are decomissioned. It doesn't need to be done right away--the increased frequencies that start in 2018 will give the PA some breathing room to plan for this. It's not like the population of Jersey City and PATH ridership go up by 20% overnight. And again, the costs would pale in comparison to PATH's budget. A rail car costs about $2.5M...and it's a cost that you need to account for no matter what.

The MTA already has a plan to begin replacing its cars with open gangway cars in the next decade. Last time the PA ordered cars, it went in on the MTA's order and ordered the same cars (the PA-5 is a slightly modded version of the MTA's R-160 cars). They could do the same again with the MTA's new open gangway cars.

Quote:
Further, it's not clear they will reduce frequency during the day. They just might send 6- and 7- and 8-car trains during the day, and maintain 10 minute intervals, as they do now.


This really shows that you don't know much about how the PA is run or what the PA's big costs are. Labor is one of them. Running more trains means more labor costs for conductors and operators. That's why PATH has 35-minute intervals between trains late at night, instead of running shorter trains more frequently. They basically never shorten their trains. Anyway, 20-minute headways didn't stop the Port Authority from building the current NJT AirLink station to the airport, and it hasn't stopped people from taking that train.

Posted on: 1/20 17:39

Edited by edg2103 on 2017/1/20 17:56:31
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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Quote:

edg2103 wrote:
Quote:

OneSkirt wrote:
I suggest we all...
TAKE THE SURVEY HERE: https://goo.gl/forms/WTzyEUO8k71koVcw2

consider what this huge density jump will do to traffic - on roads, in public transit, etc.


A dirty little secret about the PATH train is that they run service at precisely the frequency that makes sure it is packed NO MATTER how many riders there are...I've seen trains packed at 11am, when the ridership volume is about 1/3 of what it is at rush hour. Why?

I've never seen a packed train at 11am on a weekday. And I've taken LOTS of non-rush-hour trains.

On weekdays, rains run every 10 minutes from 10AM to 5PM. DEVIOUS!!!

And yes, it does make sense to run fewer trains when there are fewer riders. Every transit system does that, because it reduces strain on the system and keeps costs down.


Quote:
The only true bottleneck is at rush hour. But the PA's latest capital plan calls for buying more cars now that the new signal system has been installed. That should increase frequency/capacity about 18% starting in 2018. Guess what? They never would've bought the cars to increase rush hour frequency if ridership hadn't increased.

Uh... Okay...

You do understand that a rail line is not going to buy extra cars just to have extra cars, right...?


Quote:
Capacity can further be increased about 50% in the future by accomodating 10-car trains and cars with open gangways. These aren't insanely expensive moves....

10 car trains on all lines requires extending the Harrison Station. That's already in progress, and is not cheap.

Removing gangways will help, but it's not going to increase capacity by 25%. Since that requires buying all new cars, that is not cheap either.

Feasible yes. Cheap no.


Quote:
Even if we leveled half of downtown into a giant parking lot (which many people here would love), the PATH would STILL be packed, because they'd just reduce service frequency to compensate.

If you mean that they aren't going to run enough cars for everyone to have a seat during rush hour? Then you're correct.

They are not going to run the system on max, 24/7, so you can get somewhere 5 minutes faster in the middle of the day.

In fact, the ideal would be to have headroom in capacity, so that they can handle future increases.

Further, it's not clear they will reduce frequency during the day. They just might send 6- and 7- and 8-car trains during the day, and maintain 10 minute intervals, as they do now.

Keep in mind they are also planning to extend the PATH to Newark Airport. Making people wait 20 minutes for the train in mid-day, when they're going to the airport? THAT is not going to work.

Posted on: 1/20 15:30
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
Jersey City's peak population was in 1930: 316,715.

In 1960, the population was 276,101 or about roughly 30,000 more than the last U.S. Census.

In 1960, vehicle ownership in all of the USA was 411 per 1,000 per capita. In year 2002, it grew to 812 per 1,000.

I could not quickly source such car ownership census figures specifically for Jersey City. However, in year 2000, 41% of adults in Jersey City possessed a car - which is much lower than the national average and nationally low among cities as well.

My conclusion: yes, there is a lot of vehicular traffic, but it has not reached car-mageddon... yet.


Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_City,_New_Jersey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... _households_without_a_car
http://tinyurl.com/zgl82mx (pg 5)


If anything, car traffic goes down when people have retail options and restaurants that they can walk to. But nobody wants to open retail or restaurants when the population density isn't there to support an adequate customer base...

Seriously, anyone who wants to see a REAL traffic nightmare, I suggest you take a trip out to Staten Island sometime. Half the density of Jersey City, but killer traffic.

Posted on: 1/20 15:20
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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Jersey City's peak population was in 1930: 316,715.

In 1960, the population was 276,101 or about roughly 30,000 more than the last U.S. Census.

In 1960, vehicle ownership in all of the USA was 411 per 1,000 per capita. In year 2002, it grew to 812 per 1,000.

I could not quickly source such car ownership census figures specifically for Jersey City. However, in year 2000, 41% of adults in Jersey City possessed a car - which is much lower than the national average and nationally low among cities as well.

My conclusion: yes, there is a lot of vehicular traffic, but it has not reached car-mageddon... yet.


Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_City,_New_Jersey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... _households_without_a_car
http://tinyurl.com/zgl82mx (pg 5)

Posted on: 1/20 14:02
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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SOS wrote:
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JCGuys wrote:
It would be very expensive but appropriate in this case. Underground parking as a condition of approval.


Who in their right mind would park underground in DTJC? It's not safe from flood on half the streets!!
strange...but isn't the parking for goldman sachs under ground? isn't the parking for the new apartment on jersey ave between newark and columbus under ground...and not all of dtjc is a flood zone


Back seat engineer syndrome LOL!
srange that you are not aware that sometimes the backseat driver can see things the driver can not see. it might costs a bit more, but you get 2-3 uses for such a structure: a park, parking and water run-off tank.....

Posted on: 1/20 13:52
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
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JCGuys wrote:
It would be very expensive but appropriate in this case. Underground parking as a condition of approval.


Who in their right mind would park underground in DTJC? It's not safe from flood on half the streets!!
strange...but isn't the parking for goldman sachs under ground? isn't the parking for the new apartment on jersey ave between newark and columbus under ground...and not all of dtjc is a flood zone


Back seat engineer syndrome LOL!

Posted on: 1/20 13:43
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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OneSkirt wrote:
I suggest we all...
TAKE THE SURVEY HERE: https://goo.gl/forms/WTzyEUO8k71koVcw2

consider what this huge density jump will do to traffic - on roads, in public transit, etc.


A dirty little secret about the PATH train is that they run service at precisely the frequency that makes sure it is packed NO MATTER how many riders there are...I've seen trains packed at 11am, when the ridership volume is about 1/3 of what it is at rush hour. Why? Because they run less frequently when there are fewer riders. Why do you think they only run it once every 35 minutes at night or only once every 10/15 minutes at 8pm or at noon? If you have more riders, they will provide more frequent service. The only true bottleneck is at rush hour. But the PA's latest capital plan calls for buying more cars now that the new signal system has been installed. That should increase frequency/capacity about 18% starting in 2018. Guess what? They never would've bought the cars to increase rush hour frequency if ridership hadn't increased. Capacity can further be increased about 50% in the future by accomodating 10-car trains and cars with open gangways. These aren't insanely expensive moves--they are feasible, and the PA has already done studies on 10-car operation and started construction on the station modifications that would be necessary.

Even if we leveled half of downtown into a giant parking lot (which many people here would love), the PATH would STILL be packed, because they'd just reduce service frequency to compensate. And on top of that, you'd be waiting 20 minutes for that packed train. That's exactly how the Staten Island Rapid Transit trains are run.

At the end of the day, more people actually means more frequent service on public transit.

Posted on: 1/20 13:28

Edited by edg2103 on 2017/1/20 13:45:51
Edited by edg2103 on 2017/1/20 13:46:47
Edited by edg2103 on 2017/1/20 13:47:35
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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would be nice if they built a deck on top of the massive eyesore parking garage on marin for the mall and made that into a park. it actually would be a pretty sizeable park if it was covered end to end that could fit multiple ball fields, basketball, tennis courts and still have open lawns.

Posted on: 1/20 13:04
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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brewster wrote:
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JCGuys wrote:
It would be very expensive but appropriate in this case. Underground parking as a condition of approval.


Who in their right mind would park underground in DTJC? It's not safe from flood on half the streets!!
strange...but isn't the parking for goldman sachs under ground? isn't the parking for the new apartment on jersey ave between newark and columbus under ground...and not all of dtjc is a flood zone

Posted on: 1/20 11:42
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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CatDog wrote:
Not sure about the 40 story building fitting there, but I'll be really glad to have 7th St opened up. Too many streets between Newport and the rest of Downtown are blocked off for no good reason.


They are looking for approval to build a 40 story & several 30 story buildings. Go to the HPNA website for a good illustration of what this would look like. Its bad, especially considering everything else already in the pipeline for that whole area.

Posted on: 1/20 10:54
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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I understand green space is at a premium, but weren't folks rightly complaining years ago here on jclist about this baseball field? From what I recall the public (?) field is run by a small clique, the little league.

I don't know how true that is, but from my own experience, every time I pass by the field, it is empty and pad locked. My impression is seems like a very underutilized space.

Much more so than other baseball fields like at Ed Fa Ford or the fields off Newark/under the NJTP extension.

Perhaps with the new development, which will hopefully include a ball field, it will get more use.

Posted on: 1/20 10:25
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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Not sure about the 40 story building fitting there, but I'll be really glad to have 7th St opened up. Too many streets between Newport and the rest of Downtown are blocked off for no good reason.

Posted on: 1/20 10:10
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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JCGuys wrote:
It would be very expensive but appropriate in this case. Underground parking as a condition of approval.


Who in their right mind would park underground in DTJC? It's not safe from flood on half the streets!!


I was thinking the same thing... People have short memories, or prefer to live in a world of fantasies. Given that so much of DTJC is a flood zone, underground parking is a risky proposition. Certainly it would necessitate site-specific considerations, and the insurance for such a space may be prohibitively expensive.

Posted on: 1/19 15:28
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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JCGuys wrote:
It would be very expensive but appropriate in this case. Underground parking as a condition of approval.


Who in their right mind would park underground in DTJC? It's not safe from flood on half the streets!!

Posted on: 1/19 15:12
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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TheBigGuy wrote:
Wow... 40 Story Building??? That baseball field will disappear. I am curious where the families that use that field will park.

It get pretty busy over there on weekends. Can't imagine what it will be like if that proposal goes through.


Where do they park now?
i suggest they put parking underground with a park on top of the parking lot.


It would be very expensive but appropriate in this case. Underground parking as a condition of approval.

Posted on: 1/19 14:46
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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Two water main breaks this morning?

Posted on: 1/19 13:53
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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I suggest we all...
TAKE THE SURVEY HERE: https://goo.gl/forms/WTzyEUO8k71koVcw2

That's the method for best collecting resident feedback. Also, consider what this huge density jump will do to traffic - on roads, in public transit, etc. I personally think this proposed plan goes way too far with all the increases.

Posted on: 1/19 13:18
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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Can't we restrict the height of these buildings west of Newport Mall in historic Hamilton Park... don't we have enough 30/40 floor rental buildings???

Posted on: 1/19 13:03
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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TheBigGuy wrote:
Wow... 40 Story Building??? That baseball field will disappear. I am curious where the families that use that field will park.

It get pretty busy over there on weekends. Can't imagine what it will be like if that proposal goes through.


Where do they park now?
i suggest they put parking underground with a park on top of the parking lot.

Posted on: 1/18 23:36
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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TheBigGuy wrote:
Wow... 40 Story Building??? That baseball field will disappear. I am curious where the families that use that field will park.

It get pretty busy over there on weekends. Can't imagine what it will be like if that proposal goes through.


Where do they park now?

Posted on: 1/18 23:16
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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It says pretty clearly in the plan that the developer will "reconstruct" the field, whatever that means. I'm happy about restoring 7th to Marin, the superblocking all over DT was stupid, I'm still annoyed they closed off Coles to Grand.

While I appreciate what Little League does, I've always felt that field being essentially their private property was serving a far smaller population segment of a very dense area than it being an actual park. Hamilton is getting overstressed being the only sizable park with open area Downtown, except perhaps if you count Morris Canal pk. Yet we have 7 baseball diamonds here.

Posted on: 1/18 21:03
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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hero69 wrote:
ok, i take back my comments about fulop if the baseball park is not being sold...after all, our aspiring clementes need a place to play baseball...i looked at the plans, renderings and the scale of those buildings will re-characterize the nab...put the parking below ground


Thanks for the link.

Wow - that's a pretty big change for the neighborhood - St. Anthony's goes, the JCFD building goes, a school can be built (but it doesn't have to be a public school).

Resized Image

Posted on: 1/18 18:57
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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Wow... 40 Story Building??? That baseball field will disappear. I am curious where the families that use that field will park.

It get pretty busy over there on weekends. Can't imagine what it will be like if that proposal goes through.

Posted on: 1/18 18:56
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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ok, i take back my comments about fulop if the baseball park is not being sold...after all, our aspiring clementes need a place to play baseball...i looked at the plans, renderings and the scale of those buildings will re-characterize the nab...put the parking below ground

Posted on: 1/18 18:46
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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jerseymom wrote:
I heard that Roberto Clemente field was just sold and a new tower will be erected there. Is that really true? If so, that's a real loss for the neighborhood kids.


Redevelopment plan from the HPNA site.
http://www.hpnajc.org/News/4548492

Posted on: 1/18 18:39
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Re: Roberto Clemente Field Just Sold?
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jerseymom wrote:
I heard that Roberto Clemente field was just sold and a new tower will be erected there. Is that really true? If so, that's a real loss for the neighborhood kids.
no surprise that it would be sold...just shows how greedy fulop and jc government are....is that space even zoned for towers? i can't wait to see fulop and his pals voted out of office if this is true!

Posted on: 1/18 18:38
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