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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Looks like my mistake..

That is actually the monthly number..

But, it reflects much larger family sizes, as the monthly per worker total is under $2,400.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 18:28
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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The Gini Coefficient for Singapore is terrible, and the standard of living is based on household income, not GDP, most of which goes to the very wealthy.

Which means the terrible income distribution is even worse.

I don't see how that is in any way admirable?

Posted on: 2015/11/11 18:27
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Quote:

MDM wrote:
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papadage wrote:
Quote:

MDM wrote:
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papadage wrote:


Singapore's income isn't low. They have a per capita nearly the same as the United States. Which isn't bad considering they were a rather poor South Asian backwater of the former British Empire about 50 years ago.

The median household income for Singapore, with at least one employed household member was $8,300 last year.

For the US, it was about $55,000 last year.

Calling bullshit on that.



Per capita GDP. Not household income. Sorry.. my bad.. I should have been more clear.


Papadage doesn't know what he's talking about, no need to apologize. He thinks their monthly household income stats are their yearly ones. Only off by a factor of 12!

Posted on: 2015/11/11 18:26
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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papadage wrote:
Quote:

MDM wrote:
Quote:

papadage wrote:


Singapore's income isn't low. They have a per capita nearly the same as the United States. Which isn't bad considering they were a rather poor South Asian backwater of the former British Empire about 50 years ago.

The median household income for Singapore, with at least one employed household member was $8,300 last year.

For the US, it was about $55,000 last year.

Calling bullshit on that.



Per capita GDP. Not household income. Sorry.. my bad.. I should have been more clear.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 18:19
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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papadage wrote:
Quote:

MDM wrote:
Quote:

papadage wrote:


Singapore's income isn't low. They have a per capita nearly the same as the United States. Which isn't bad considering they were a rather poor South Asian backwater of the former British Empire about 50 years ago.

The median household income for Singapore, with at least one employed household member was $8,300 last year.

For the US, it was about $55,000 last year.

Calling bullshit on that.


And I call bullshit on your unsourced claim that the median household income for Singapore was only $8,300. Spoken like someone completely ignorant of the country.

I'll give you a hint: Singapore reports their MONTHLY household income stats, not ANNUAL. I'm sure those workers who make 12x than you thought are so miserable.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 18:13
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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MDM wrote:
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papadage wrote:


Singapore's income isn't low. They have a per capita nearly the same as the United States. Which isn't bad considering they were a rather poor South Asian backwater of the former British Empire about 50 years ago.

The median household income for Singapore, with at least one employed household member was $8,300 last year.

For the US, it was about $55,000 last year.

Calling bullshit on that.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 17:56
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Singapore has added the Silver Support Scheme to make up for insufficient savings and has raised taxes on the wealthier as well. They also give a deep five figure grant to subsidize home ownership, especially near other family members.

But that is neither here nor there. We do no need to aspire to be a place where workers are miserable and poor and is VERY authoritarian.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 17:49
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Singapore's income isn't low. They have a per capita nearly the same as the United States. Which isn't bad considering they were a rather poor South Asian backwater of the former British Empire about 50 years ago.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 17:39
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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papadage wrote:
Singapore also has a very large welfare system


Singapore has nothing like a European style welfare system. They do have a support program for the absolute destitute which gives very little and is strictly means tested. I think they have less than 5,000 people for the entire city state on anything close to traditional welfare.

Singapore does have mandatory savings programs forcing every citizen to pay their own way as much as possible for retirement and medical costs. The retirement program requires a savings rate of over 35%. This isn't a pay as you go program. The money gets invested. The closest we have to such a system is the Federal Government's Thrift Savings plan for government workers and politicians.

Singapore used to have government subsidized health system back in the 1980s. The government realized way back then it was not sustainable. The system was replaced with system health insurance and health savings accounts with mandatory savings. The government ONLY comes in as the provider of last resort when personal and family savings have been exhausted. There are three layers with an extra program for the elderly.

Medisave - Mandatory health savings accounts

Medishield- Acts as a catastrophic insurance. If you are really poor, you can get some subsidies

Medifund - Last resort fund. Money from government surpluses are invested with interest gained used to pay for the last line of support. This is not a pay as you go program like Medicade.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 17:35
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Pebble wrote:
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JCMan8 wrote:
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papadage wrote:
Singapore also has a very large welfare system to mask the issue with income being low. They have a subsidized national health service, give rebates for food, utilities and rent, and other big government benefits. At the same time though, there is more unrest over stagnant wages.

As for not answering the dumb question.. it's dumb, and a straw man at that.


It certainly is not a dumb question. The logic behind the answer can easily be applied to a $15 an hour rate. Where did this $15 number come from? Picked from a hat?

Considering the individual asking the question is the same person that claimed sick time would cause unemployment... Well, economics isn't their (or your) strong suit.


More cute babble. What were you saying about ad hominem attacks again?

Facts. Not an insult. Go to the thread that talks about sick time...

Posted on: 2015/11/11 17:30
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Pebble wrote:
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JCMan8 wrote:
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papadage wrote:
Singapore also has a very large welfare system to mask the issue with income being low. They have a subsidized national health service, give rebates for food, utilities and rent, and other big government benefits. At the same time though, there is more unrest over stagnant wages.

As for not answering the dumb question.. it's dumb, and a straw man at that.


It certainly is not a dumb question. The logic behind the answer can easily be applied to a $15 an hour rate. Where did this $15 number come from? Picked from a hat?

Considering the individual asking the question is the same person that claimed sick time would cause unemployment... Well, economics isn't their (or your) strong suit.


More cute babble. What were you saying about ad hominem attacks again?

Posted on: 2015/11/11 17:28
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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papadage wrote:
Singapore also has a very large welfare system to mask the issue with income being low. They have a subsidized national health service, give rebates for food, utilities and rent, and other big government benefits. At the same time though, there is more unrest over stagnant wages.

As for not answering the dumb question.. it's dumb, and a straw man at that.


It certainly is not a dumb question. The logic behind the answer can easily be applied to a $15 an hour rate. Where did this $15 number come from? Picked from a hat?

Considering the individual asking the question is the same person that claimed sick time would cause unemployment... Well, economics isn't their (or your) strong suit.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 17:21
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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papadage wrote:
Singapore also has a very large welfare system to mask the issue with income being low. They have a subsidized national health service, give rebates for food, utilities and rent, and other big government benefits. At the same time though, there is more unrest over stagnant wages.

As for not answering the dumb question.. it's dumb, and a straw man at that.


It certainly is not a dumb question. The logic behind the answer can easily be applied to a $15 an hour rate. Where did this $15 number come from? Picked from a hat?

Posted on: 2015/11/11 17:14
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Singapore also has a very large welfare system to mask the issue with income being low. They have a subsidized national health service, give rebates for food, utilities and rent, and other big government benefits. At the same time though, there is more unrest over stagnant wages.

As for not answering the dumb question.. it's dumb, and a straw man at that.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 17:10
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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vindication15 wrote:
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MDM wrote:
Why stop at 15? Make is $100 per hour!


You can go to an extreme so why can't I go to the other extreme? If a minimum wage is so bad and a job killer, why not get rid of it and have employers be able to pay whatever they want to desperate workers?

For example, why shouldn't Apple, a multi billion dollar company, be able to pay workers $2 an hour here in America to make iphones if unemployed workers (maybe the homeless, injured, or even our children! (lazy children) are willing to accept it? We would have 100% employment!



Singapore does not have a minimum wage and their per capita income and living standards are on par with or better than America.

Not saying this is the way to go, but this extreme is actually practical and can be beneficial. Whereas the "progressive" extreme is pure lunacy.


No thanks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Singapore


Posted on: 2015/11/11 16:56
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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The point is that Vindication's question can be answered. Singapore is also a much better place to live than its surrounding neighbors. However, no one has tried to answer MDM's question.

Why not raise the minimum wage to $100?

Posted on: 2015/11/11 16:50
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Singapore's income distribution is shitty, and they have next to no worker rights. We should not aspire to living under shitty conditions because some people, somewhere else do so.

A minimum wage increase would result in next to no cost increase to consumers, and would lift millions of families out of poverty, as well ad allow them to provide for families without having multiple jobs, freeing some jobs for others as well.


Posted on: 2015/11/11 16:44
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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vindication15 wrote:
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MDM wrote:
Why stop at 15? Make is $100 per hour!


You can go to an extreme so why can't I go to the other extreme? If a minimum wage is so bad and a job killer, why not get rid of it and have employers be able to pay whatever they want to desperate workers?

For example, why shouldn't Apple, a multi billion dollar company, be able to pay workers $2 an hour here in America to make iphones if unemployed workers (maybe the homeless, injured, or even our children! (lazy children) are willing to accept it? We would have 100% employment!



Singapore does not have a minimum wage and their per capita income and living standards are on par with or better than America.

Not saying this is the way to go, but this extreme is actually practical and can be beneficial. Whereas the "progressive" extreme is pure lunacy.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 16:31
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Yvonne wrote:
Not all state workers pay into Social Security, some retired seniors live totally on their NJ pensions. Those pensions are frozen at 2011 levels under Christie.

Then Christie is the one to blame for that. That issue has nothing to do with minimum wages.

And again: It is deeply unfair to make everyone's day a little cheaper, by screwing the lowest-paid workers out of normal raises.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 16:28
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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MDM wrote:
Why stop at 15? Make is $100 per hour!


You can go to an extreme so why can't I go to the other extreme? If a minimum wage is so bad and a job killer, why not get rid of it and have employers be able to pay whatever they want to desperate workers?

For example, why shouldn't Apple, a multi billion dollar company, be able to pay workers $2 an hour here in America to make iphones if unemployed workers (maybe the homeless, injured, or even our children! (lazy children) are willing to accept it? We would have 100% employment!


Posted on: 2015/11/11 16:27
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Monroe wrote:
A job killer, but a vote buyer.

Is it, though...?

Inherently, everyone made the same argument about sick time. The result was that every person that made said argument was wrong.

When the minimum wage made the last jump, people claimed it would be a job killer... it didn't happen.

This is certainly a larger leap, but to simply dismiss it out of hand when historical evidence doesn't actually justify the case you're trying to make seems a bit presumptuous.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 16:22
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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This article from earlier this year gives a good insight into how someone "lives" off of the current minimum wage. I know republicans will always say it's a job killer but perhaps humanizing the issue will change GOP hearts?

Inside the Fast-Food Labor Protests - The New Yorker

Posted on: 2015/11/11 16:08
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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A job killer, but a vote buyer.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 15:58
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Not all state workers pay into Social Security, some retired seniors live totally on their NJ pensions. Those pensions are frozen at 2011 levels under Christie. To say, this will not affect some people is wrong. Let's get some studies done on this, this is not a quarter or a dollar increase.
https://www.ssa.gov/planners/retire/stateandlocal.html

Posted on: 2015/11/11 15:35
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Why stop at 15? Make is $100 per hour!

Posted on: 2015/11/11 15:22
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Dolomiti wrote:
I also wonder how much of your opposition is, frankly, connected to Fulop signing off on the proposal.

Do you really wonder that...?

Posted on: 2015/11/11 15:19
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Yvonne wrote:
There is also the other side to the fight for $15.00. Seniors on fixed incomes will not receive a COLA increase from Social Security this year; if they are seniors receiving state pensions, they haven't received a COLA increase since 2011. A $15.00 will double the cost of food and other services to that particular group. In 2015, the minimum wage in NJ is $8.38. That one dollar can of peas might cost $2.00 with this increase $15 increase.


Really, you are are against minimum wage workers making more money? You really just come here to bitch about anything.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 15:18
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Yvonne wrote:
There is also the other side to the fight for $15.00. Seniors on fixed incomes will not receive a COLA increase from Social Security this year; if they are seniors receiving state pensions, they haven't received a COLA increase since 2011....

If wages go up, and this has any tangible impact on the cost of living, it will go into the COLA adjustments.

By the way, the reason why seniors occasionally (and rarely I might add) don't get COLA increases is because in those years, the cost of living did not increase. Crazy huh?


Quote:
A $15.00 will double the cost of food and other services to that particular group. In 2015, the minimum wage in NJ is $8.38. That one dollar can of peas might cost $2.00 with this increase $15 increase.

No, it won't. Not even close.

Payroll is around 15% of a typical supermarket's total costs. At the absolute worst, that $1.00 can of peas might jump to $1.15. Realistically, the stores won't pass on all the costs to the consumer.

You are also basically demanding that the poorest paid workers in our society work for less and less every year, in order to subsidize seniors. Maybe you ought to rethink that.

I also wonder how much of your opposition is, frankly, connected to Fulop signing off on the proposal.



Posted on: 2015/11/11 15:01
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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Yvonne wrote:
There is also the other side to the fight for $15.00. Seniors on fixed incomes will not receive a COLA increase from Social Security this year; if they are seniors receiving state pensions, they haven't received a COLA increase since 2011. A $15.00 will double the cost of food and other services to that particular group. In 2015, the minimum wage in NJ is $8.38. That one dollar can of peas might cost $2.00 with this increase $15 increase.

I'd love to see where you believe that a can of peas will double in price because the people selling it will make more per hour...

Posted on: 2015/11/11 14:51
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Re: Fulop and the ‘Fight for Fifteen’
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There is also the other side to the fight for $15.00. Seniors on fixed incomes will not receive a COLA increase from Social Security this year; if they are seniors receiving state pensions, they haven't received a COLA increase since 2011. A $15.00 will double the cost of food and other services to that particular group. In 2015, the minimum wage in NJ is $8.38. That one dollar can of peas might cost $2.00 with this increase $15 increase.

Posted on: 2015/11/11 14:43
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