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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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DanL, very fasting read. Thank you!


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Posted on: 2015/10/20 14:11
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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And what about Hoboken?

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Wishful_Thinking wrote:
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JCGuys wrote:
With all the new luxury development going on in Jersey City... I'm left wondering when the Abbott district subsidies will end.


The luxury development boom is confined to one small area of Jersey City. You will not find any luxury developments in the Heights, where I live; you will see a lot of children in an area with low incomes though - http://www.city-data.com/income/income-Jersey-City-New-Jersey.html - and I think you would need to determine if the criteria from Abbott II still apply:

- must be those with the lowest socio-economic status, thus assigned to the lowest categories on the New Jersey Department of Education's District Factor Groups (DFG) scale;

- "evidence of substantive failure of thorough and efficient education;"

- have a large percentage of disadvantaged students who need "an education beyond the norm;"

- existence of an "excessive tax [for] municipal services" in the locality where the district is located.

The last issue has been much discussed/lamented on this board, I suspect it still applies along with the other criteria.

Posted on: 2015/10/20 14:10
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
With all the new luxury development going on in Jersey City... I'm left wondering when the Abbott district subsidies will end.


The luxury development boom is confined to one small area of Jersey City. You will not find any luxury developments in the Heights, where I live; you will see a lot of children in an area with low incomes though - http://www.city-data.com/income/income-Jersey-City-New-Jersey.html - and I think you would need to determine if the criteria from Abbott II still apply:

- must be those with the lowest socio-economic status, thus assigned to the lowest categories on the New Jersey Department of Education's District Factor Groups (DFG) scale;

- "evidence of substantive failure of thorough and efficient education;"

- have a large percentage of disadvantaged students who need "an education beyond the norm;"

- existence of an "excessive tax [for] municipal services" in the locality where the district is located.

The last issue has been much discussed/lamented on this board, I suspect it still applies along with the other criteria.

Posted on: 2015/10/20 13:59
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.


Reality: as long as 80% of black kids are born out of wedlock, to largely single mothers, student outcomes will never ever improve. A massive cultural shift is needed, yet people still refuse to acknowledge that this internal problem even exists.

So throw all the money you want at the problem, engineer all sorts of different funding schemes, unless the nuclear family model begins to rise in the black community, student outcomes will never change. And people can scratch their heads or blame outside forces all they want.


JCMan8. You're a cop right? You don't even live in JC. Can't take you seriously.


What I said has nothing to do with where I work or live, and I don't know where you got that from anyway. What I said is the truth, and it won't change no matter what you think of me.

Yeah, some other posters are right that "school is sometimes the only constant in a child's life." That's because when you are born to a single mother, as 80% of black children born out of wedlock, it is too difficult for one person to properly provide for and be there for her child. Everything stems from the home life. And a black baby born to a mother AND father that is there for him or her, has a much better chance of succeeding than one born to a single parent. The obvious conclusion is children born to two parents that stay together = better for all involved.

Too bad people still refuse to recognize the problem, and a ridiculous comment like yours is one response.

Posted on: 2015/10/20 0:13
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.


Reality: as long as 80% of black kids are born out of wedlock, to largely single mothers, student outcomes will never ever improve. A massive cultural shift is needed, yet people still refuse to acknowledge that this internal problem even exists.

So throw all the money you want at the problem, engineer all sorts of different funding schemes, unless the nuclear family model begins to rise in the black community, student outcomes will never change. And people can scratch their heads or blame outside forces all they want.


JCMan8. You're a cop right? You don't even live in JC. Can't take you seriously.

Posted on: 2015/10/19 23:16
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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deborah wrote:
We all know that Jersey City is a very diverse community - economically, visually and socially and we all know that early childhood education and stimulation are crucial for a childs' development. The 'issue' or 'problem' is not one of color, single parent families or ethnic background. There are educated and uneducated single parent families, immigrant families and families of color. Although the Abbott system isn't perfect, it does provide access to an early education for Jersey City children who otherwise would not be able to attend pre-school. Yes, there are families who can afford pre-school for their children who do enroll their children in Abbot funded pre-schools. I don't think they should be blamed for taking advantage of the Abbott pre-school education - that is a problem with how the system is set up. There are difficult, complicated and sad situations found in all types of families. On the extreme end, school is sometimes the only constant in a child's life (including eating a regular meal for breakfast and lunch). The Abbott system isn't perfect, but it does provide help to a lot of families who do need the help. I don't believe in 'hand outs' but education isn't a hand out - it's a hand up. Maybe a better question is - what can we do as neighbors, individuals and /or groups to help? Just my two cents.
well said, I personally don't think education should be free. I think if peeps had to pay at least 1% of their income they and their rug rats would give a shit. My 3 cents

Posted on: 2015/10/19 19:26
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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We all know that Jersey City is a very diverse community - economically, visually and socially and we all know that early childhood education and stimulation are crucial for a childs' development. The 'issue' or 'problem' is not one of color, single parent families or ethnic background. There are educated and uneducated single parent families, immigrant families and families of color. Although the Abbott system isn't perfect, it does provide access to an early education for Jersey City children who otherwise would not be able to attend pre-school. Yes, there are families who can afford pre-school for their children who do enroll their children in Abbot funded pre-schools. I don't think they should be blamed for taking advantage of the Abbott pre-school education - that is a problem with how the system is set up. There are difficult, complicated and sad situations found in all types of families. On the extreme end, school is sometimes the only constant in a child's life (including eating a regular meal for breakfast and lunch). The Abbott system isn't perfect, but it does provide help to a lot of families who do need the help. I don't believe in 'hand outs' but education isn't a hand out - it's a hand up. Maybe a better question is - what can we do as neighbors, individuals and /or groups to help? Just my two cents.

Posted on: 2015/10/19 18:59
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.


Reality: as long as 80% of black kids are born out of wedlock, to largely single mothers, student outcomes will never ever improve. A massive cultural shift is needed, yet people still refuse to acknowledge that this internal problem even exists.

So throw all the money you want at the problem, engineer all sorts of different funding schemes, unless the nuclear family model begins to rise in the black community, student outcomes will never change. And people can scratch their heads or blame outside forces all they want.


I agree that education is a moneypit - but the rest is speculation. Can we spend our education dollars state-wide better? Hell, yes. For example Abbott could be entirely replaced by a means-tested voucher system - or have the state fully fund public schools.

Free preK should absolutely be means-tested. It's welfare.


Posted on: 2015/10/19 16:41
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.


Reality: as long as 80% of black kids are born out of wedlock, to largely single mothers, student outcomes will never ever improve. A massive cultural shift is needed, yet people still refuse to acknowledge that this internal problem even exists.

So throw all the money you want at the problem, engineer all sorts of different funding schemes, unless the nuclear family model begins to rise in the black community, student outcomes will never change. And people can scratch their heads or blame outside forces all they want.


Having children out of wedlock doesn't cause these outcomes. The absence of a stable financial income to support a family and time devoted to establishing a connection between caretaker/parent and child causes these outcomes.

The nuclear family is not the same nuclear family you envision of the 1950s. Studies have shown kids with two caretakers/parents are just as successful. In fact, parents who have grandmothers who are extremely involved with the family also raise children with better outcomes.

When the % of divorce is so high, marriage doesn't solve all problems...

Posted on: 2015/10/19 16:39
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.


Reality: as long as 80% of black kids are born out of wedlock, to largely single mothers, student outcomes will never ever improve. A massive cultural shift is needed, yet people still refuse to acknowledge that this internal problem even exists.

So throw all the money you want at the problem, engineer all sorts of different funding schemes, unless the nuclear family model begins to rise in the black community, student outcomes will never change. And people can scratch their heads or blame outside forces all they want.

Posted on: 2015/10/19 16:13
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.

Posted on: 2015/10/19 15:58
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Posted on: 2015/10/19 9:58
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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bustjc wrote:
Well thanks to all of the tax abatements for up to 30 years all the full taxing base in Jersey City would be on the hook for the difference basically it's wealthy welfare.

Hoboken and Jersey City can't be lumped together as Jersey City has a larger population. A larger portion of that population also lives below the poverty line.


Agreed, and so why does Hoboken also still receive Abbott funding? All the negative attention is on Jersey City, but Hoboken is the biggest offender.

Posted on: 2015/10/18 12:37
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Well thanks to all of the tax abatements for up to 30 years all the full taxing base in Jersey City would be on the hook for the difference basically it's wealthy welfare.

Hoboken and Jersey City can't be lumped together as Jersey City has a larger population. A larger portion of that population also lives below the poverty line.

Posted on: 2015/10/18 12:27
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Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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With all the new luxury development going on in Jersey City and Hoboken, I'm left wondering when the Abbott district subsidies will end. What is the mechanism to remove a district from Abbott status?

Although I'm a huge supporter of new development, and tools such as tax abatements to encourage development, I think the suburban areas have a point that Jersey City and Hoboken receive hundreds of millions annually in state education aid when they can rely on their own ratable base like the rest of the state.

I also wanted to highlight Hoboken especially. It's one of the wealthiest communities in the State with a median family income of over $120,000 and an average home value of over $550,000. How can this community be in same Abbott district class as Camden, Trenton, and Newark. It makes no sense!

Posted on: 2015/10/18 12:17
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