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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Quote:

score09 wrote:
Glad we are in agreement. Now, let's incite not just the homeless, but the entire country. Nutjob that I am. Violence is mandatory when attempting to wrest the oppressors from their ill gotten wealth.

And yes, it IS "ill gotten." Not through any "hard work," or "discipline" nonsense. To borrow from a thirty plus year old Pink Floyd tune:

"I'm all right Jack keep your hands off my stack.
Money it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet."

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I agree that the top .1% write the rules, control everything, and our state of politics is deplorable.


Violence to support your goals? Good luck with that.

Anyways, if we're all on the same side, why would you disagree with laws that target aggressive panhandling? If we're all on the same side and we should focus on elites, you're supporting one side to attack each other.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 15:15
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
Why not prohibit road-rage, drunken rages, cab-fare rage, pedestrian rage, dog-poop rage, and all acts of intimidation and aggression?

I find it troubling that the proposed law targets a minority - the poor and homeless - when aggressive behavior is much more widespread.


Road rage is already illegal. Not sure what the rest would entail. This proposed law targets a group that ..., no, wait, it doesn't target a group at all. It targets an activity. If a specific group primarily engages in it then that group needs to cut it out. I've never been particularly sensitive to "disparate impact" type arguments. This isn't being done to "stick it to the poor" (most of which do not engage in this behavior). This is being done to eliminate a major QOL issue in major cities.


That's the weasely way of it. The law supposedly isn't targeting the activity - it's targeting the aggression. Non-aggressive begging is fine. It just so happens the law is being attached to activities associated with homeless and the very poor. It's clearly a NIMBY law targeting a minority.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 15:14
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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score09 wrote:
So, if you scroll down the thread, you will see some rather annoying and irksome posts courtesy of ?WhoElseCouldIBe.? Granted, this FREQUENT poster may not be familiar with the famous Louise Rosenblatt or her widely famous article entitled ?Writing and Reading: The Transactional Theory.? And, granted, most people aren?t, sadly.

But just as though drunkenness is no excuse for ignorance, there is no reason for any response to her (or ?his?) inquiries of me since my comments are directly aligned with Rosenblatt?s. Apparently, this user is flustered as to my commentary and seeks ?clarification.? She (or ?he?) queries of me: ?mind rephrasing? or some such nonsense, as if there is some ambiguity to the formulation of English words presented to her (or "him.")

Like an APARTHEID wall on the Israeli West Bank, in order to preserve the status quo at the expense of humanity. In this person?s mind, there is apparently a ?marketing 101? sensibility. A mind that is all too mindful of MONEY.

My guess is that a local High School kid laid this out just a few short hours after the news story broke on nj.com. What an unbelievable turnaround! No doubt way better than those who ascribe to the money institutions offering courses like ?marketing 101" and whose sole mission is to preserve the status quo, ie, Harvard Business School, Columbia Business School and all other "business" schools.


You use a lot of fancy words but you don't say a whole lot.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 15:13
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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score09 wrote:
No, devilsadvocate, my claim (which I think is Marxian in nature) is that the ?local loser? wouldn?t be a loser were it not for a capitalistic (turned neo liberal capitalistic) economic system. This isn?t the prosperous America of post World War II. It is a new America rooted in an extreme brand of laissez-faire economics in which ?losers short on cash? have NO shot. Any assault on the ?local loser? is misplaced since neo liberal capitalist policies are more deserving of said assault and are responsible for the deepened societal malaise that began with Reagan and Thatcher. Maybe we wouldn?t be having this discussion if we took care of our people, many of whom are veterans like the guy who was baked to death a few weeks ago in a NYC jail cell after he was arrested for trying to keep warm in a stairwell. I mean, look at the stats! America has a higher rate of infant mortality, drug abuse, alcoholism, suicide, domestic abuse, teen pregnancy, mental illness and incarcerates more people than ALL other industrialized countries governed with a more balanced view. Now why might that be?

The ?local loser?? There?s a cat who panhandles on Newark and Coles almost everyday and night. The guy looks like he?s 70 years old (which means he?s probably only 60.) He is unassuming and not at all aggressive. Sometimes, I fish out some loose change for him and sometimes I don?t. But seriously, who is going to hire this guy? How is he supposed to get a foothold? What truly efficacious services are there for individuals like him? Why are so many homeless? You think that maybe capitalism has something to do with it?


Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
Let me get this straight. Your claim is that because economic elites have more sway than the local loser always short on cash, this implies that all political speech by marginalized portions of society are good no matter how completely stupid they are? I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there. Most really horrible national political movements start by whipping up marginalized fools into supporting really stupid ideas.

Therefore, I'm going to absolutely tell idiots that they're being idiots and should shut up for the good of humanity. And aggressive panhandlers are absolutely awful. They aren't hated because they're poor. They're hated because they harass other people in the hopes that they can parasitically leach their money. Plenty of poor people don't do this. In fact, most don't. But if those that do are fined and/or spend some time in jail then I will happily vote for whatever politician was smart enough to sign that into law.



America has "laissez faire" capitalism? Since when?

Posted on: 2014/3/27 15:12
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
Why not prohibit road-rage, drunken rages, cab-fare rage, pedestrian rage, dog-poop rage, and all acts of intimidation and aggression?

I find it troubling that the proposed law targets a minority - the poor and homeless - when aggressive behavior is much more widespread.


Road rage is already illegal. Not sure what the rest would entail. This proposed law targets a group that ..., no, wait, it doesn't target a group at all. It targets an activity. If a specific group primarily engages in it then that group needs to cut it out. I've never been particularly sensitive to "disparate impact" type arguments. This isn't being done to "stick it to the poor" (most of which do not engage in this behavior). This is being done to eliminate a major QOL issue in major cities.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 15:03
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Why not prohibit road-rage, drunken rages, cab-fare rage, pedestrian rage, dog-poop rage, and all acts of intimidation and aggression?

I find it troubling that the proposed law targets a minority - the poor and homeless - when aggressive behavior is much more widespread.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 14:50
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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score09 wrote:
Like an APARTHEID wall on the Israeli West Bank, in order to preserve the status quo at the expense of humanity. In this person?s mind, there is apparently a ?marketing 101? sensibility. A mind that is all too mindful of MONEY.

My guess is that a local High School kid laid this out just a few short hours after the news story broke on nj.com. What an unbelievable turnaround! No doubt way better than those who ascribe to the money institutions offering courses like ?marketing 101" and whose sole mission is to preserve the status quo, ie, Harvard Business School, Columbia Business School and all other "business" schools.


1. The "apartheid" wall was pretty smart, actually. If I lived in Israel I would be a huge fan. Attacks from the Palestinian territories have basically stopped.

2. You have no idea what goes on in elite MBA programs. Seriously. For one, they don't teach "marketing 101", nor do you have any clue what marketing is about.

3. The status quo in the developed world is actually pretty freakin' good. Feel free to look at the rest of the world to understand why.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 14:35
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Ah, Marxists. I can tell you that the homeless did very well in the USSR. They were charged with "vagrancy" and sent to the gulags to die. If you are seriously a Marxist then I pity you.

As to causation, most are homeless because they are mentally ill or drunks/druggies. If you want to donate to charity to help them then be my guest. But they have no right to harass normal people.


Quote:

score09 wrote:
No, devilsadvocate, my claim (which I think is Marxian in nature) is that the ?local loser? wouldn?t be a loser were it not for a capitalistic (turned neo liberal capitalistic) economic system. This isn?t the prosperous America of post World War II. It is a new America rooted in an extreme brand of laissez-faire economics in which ?losers short on cash? have NO shot. Any assault on the ?local loser? is misplaced since neo liberal capitalist policies are more deserving of said assault and are responsible for the deepened societal malaise that began with Reagan and Thatcher. Maybe we wouldn?t be having this discussion if we took care of our people, many of whom are veterans like the guy who was baked to death a few weeks ago in a NYC jail cell after he was arrested for trying to keep warm in a stairwell. I mean, look at the stats! America has a higher rate of infant mortality, drug abuse, alcoholism, suicide, domestic abuse, teen pregnancy, mental illness and incarcerates more people than ALL other industrialized countries governed with a more balanced view. Now why might that be?

The ?local loser?? There?s a cat who panhandles on Newark and Coles almost everyday and night. The guy looks like he?s 70 years old (which means he?s probably only 60.) He is unassuming and not at all aggressive. Sometimes, I fish out some loose change for him and sometimes I don?t. But seriously, who is going to hire this guy? How is he supposed to get a foothold? What truly efficacious services are there for individuals like him? Why are so many homeless? You think that maybe capitalism has something to do with it?


Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
Let me get this straight. Your claim is that because economic elites have more sway than the local loser always short on cash, this implies that all political speech by marginalized portions of society are good no matter how completely stupid they are? I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there. Most really horrible national political movements start by whipping up marginalized fools into supporting really stupid ideas.

Therefore, I'm going to absolutely tell idiots that they're being idiots and should shut up for the good of humanity. And aggressive panhandlers are absolutely awful. They aren't hated because they're poor. They're hated because they harass other people in the hopes that they can parasitically leach their money. Plenty of poor people don't do this. In fact, most don't. But if those that do are fined and/or spend some time in jail then I will happily vote for whatever politician was smart enough to sign that into law.


Posted on: 2014/3/27 14:30
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Wonderful. We have people inciting violence on this board now.

Quote:

score09 wrote:
Glad we are in agreement. Now, let's incite not just the homeless, but the entire country. Nutjob that I am. Violence is mandatory when attempting to wrest the oppressors from their ill gotten wealth.

And yes, it IS "ill gotten." Not through any "hard work," or "discipline" nonsense. To borrow from a thirty plus year old Pink Floyd tune:

"I'm all right Jack keep your hands off my stack.
Money it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet."

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I agree that the top .1% write the rules, control everything, and our state of politics is deplorable.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 14:26
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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So, if you scroll down the thread, you will see some rather annoying and irksome posts courtesy of ?WhoElseCouldIBe.? Granted, this FREQUENT poster may not be familiar with the famous Louise Rosenblatt or her widely famous article entitled ?Writing and Reading: The Transactional Theory.? And, granted, most people aren?t, sadly.

But just as though drunkenness is no excuse for ignorance, there is no reason for any response to her (or ?his?) inquiries of me since my comments are directly aligned with Rosenblatt?s. Apparently, this user is flustered as to my commentary and seeks ?clarification.? She (or ?he?) queries of me: ?mind rephrasing? or some such nonsense, as if there is some ambiguity to the formulation of English words presented to her (or "him.")

Like an APARTHEID wall on the Israeli West Bank, in order to preserve the status quo at the expense of humanity. In this person?s mind, there is apparently a ?marketing 101? sensibility. A mind that is all too mindful of MONEY.

My guess is that a local High School kid laid this out just a few short hours after the news story broke on nj.com. What an unbelievable turnaround! No doubt way better than those who ascribe to the money institutions offering courses like ?marketing 101" and whose sole mission is to preserve the status quo, ie, Harvard Business School, Columbia Business School and all other "business" schools.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 3:11
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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JPhurst wrote:
In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.

-Anatole France


Yeah. Let em eat cake.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 2:53
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.

-Anatole France

Posted on: 2014/3/27 2:17
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Monroe wrote:

Pink Floyd drummer has a Ferrari GTO that's probably worth 50 millions dollars, fyi.



Ah yes, Nick Mason and his ROYALTIES. Interesting to note however, how prescient the forty year old lyrics to one of the best selling albums of all time are!

Don't shoot the messenger.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 1:18
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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score09 wrote:
Glad we are in agreement. Now, let's incite not just the homeless, but the entire country. Nutjob that I am. Violence is mandatory when attempting to wrest the oppressors from their ill gotten wealth.

And yes, it IS "ill gotten." Not through any "hard work," or "discipline" nonsense. To borrow from a thirty plus year old Pink Floyd tune:

"I'm all right Jack keep your hands off my stack.
Money it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet."

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I agree that the top .1% write the rules, control everything, and our state of politics is deplorable.


Pink Floyd drummer has a Ferrari GTO that's probably worth 50 millions dollars, fyi.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 1:10
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Glad we are in agreement. Now, let's incite not just the homeless, but the entire country. Nutjob that I am. Violence is mandatory when attempting to wrest the oppressors from their ill gotten wealth.

And yes, it IS "ill gotten." Not through any "hard work," or "discipline" nonsense. To borrow from a thirty plus year old Pink Floyd tune:

"I'm all right Jack keep your hands off my stack.
Money it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet."

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I agree that the top .1% write the rules, control everything, and our state of politics is deplorable.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 1:04
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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score09 wrote:
I?m all for the aggressive panhandlers. Hopefully, they become more aggressive and increasingly violent. After all, that really is the only way to start and WIN a revolution -- by way of violence. I?d say the aggressive panhandlers are merely a manifestation of an underlying current of restiveness towards the status quo. Hopefully, they serve to highlight the violence inflicted upon all of us, everyday by the economic elite. I think it?s time for a change. If we could just get a hold of the military...



Thank you for outing yourself as a nutjob. I agree that the top .1% write the rules, control everything, and our state of politics is deplorable.

However, if you seriously think that advocating homeless violence on average people on the street will do even the slightest good, you should be institutionalized.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 0:08
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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CdeCoincy wrote:

Nonsense on stilts!

The people who hang out around Box are alcoholics and/or mentally ill. They cannot be forced into rehab or made to take meds. Pass laws that strike down those rights and maybe they will not need to panhandle. First they came for the alcoholics, but I wasn't an alcoholic (sic).....

BTW - who is the guy in the poster?




Nonsense on stilts? What specifically is nonsensical?

As to the poster, I don't know. I didn't create it. I merely saw it and took a snapshot of it earlier today and posted it to the thread since it was relevant to the topic. It looks like it might be Tupac Shakur, deceased nephew to the exiled communist Assata Shakur.

As for coerced twelve step indoctrination, well, that's a whole other matter.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 0:06
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Kinda mixed on this one. Shouldn't anyone acting aggressively to someone else be prohibited? Why just panhandlers?

A few years ago they turned the water off in Lincoln Park dog run, to stop the homeless using the hydrant to bathe. Apparently dogs have the right to water, but the homeless don't. wtf.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 23:53
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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[quote]
score09 wrote:
No, devilsadvocate, my claim (which I think is Marxian in nature) is that the ?local loser? wouldn?t be a loser were it not for a capitalistic (turned neo liberal capitalistic) economic system. This isn?t the prosperous America of post World War II. It is a new America rooted in an extreme brand of laissez-faire economics in which ?losers short on cash? have NO shot. Any assault on the ?local loser? is misplaced since neo liberal capitalist policies are more deserving of said assault and are responsible for the deepened societal malaise that began with Reagan and Thatcher. Maybe we wouldn?t be having this discussion if we took care of our people, many of whom are veterans like the guy who was baked to death a few weeks ago in a NYC jail cell after he was arrested for trying to keep warm in a stairwell. I mean, look at the stats! America has a higher rate of infant mortality, drug abuse, alcoholism, suicide, domestic abuse, teen pregnancy, mental illness and incarcerates more people than ALL other industrialized countries governed with a more balanced view. Now why might that be?

The ?local loser?? There?s a cat who panhandles on Newark and Coles almost everyday and night. The guy looks like he?s 70 years old (which means he?s probably only 60.) He is unassuming and not at all aggressive. Sometimes, I fish out some loose change for him and sometimes I don?t. But seriously, who is going to hire this guy? How is he supposed to get a foothold? What truly efficacious services are there for individuals like him? Why are so many homeless? You think that maybe capitalism has something to do with it?
[quote]

Nonsense on stilts!

The people who hang out around Box are alcoholics and/or mentally ill. They cannot be forced into rehab or made to take meds. Pass laws that strike down those rights and maybe they will not need to panhandle. First they came for the alcoholics, but I wasn't an alcoholic (sic).....

BTW - who is the guy in the poster?



Posted on: 2014/3/26 23:43
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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JCMan8 wrote:

Maybe you don't realize that the "cat" you pass will not be affected by this law. It says it only goes after aggressive panhandlers, not the ones who just sit there.

All you are doing is fighting for the rights of aggressive bums to harass ordinary people minding their own business. Now, I haven't noticed much of a problem with them at Exchange or Grove, but a law that only goes after the aggressive bums is fine by me.


Then again, maybe I realized that from the outset. (Sorry if you take umbrage with the vernacular use of the word ?cat.? Guess you?re not a Jimi Hendrix fan, or a fan of anything cool for that matter since no one cool would reply with indignation to the vernacular use of the word ?cat.?)

I disagree with your point though. I?m all for the aggressive panhandlers. Hopefully, they become more aggressive and increasingly violent. After all, that really is the only way to start and WIN a revolution -- by way of violence. I?d say the aggressive panhandlers are merely a manifestation of an underlying current of restiveness towards the status quo. Hopefully, they serve to highlight the violence inflicted upon all of us, everyday by the economic elite. I think it?s time for a change. If we could just get a hold of the military...



Posted on: 2014/3/26 23:35
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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I don?t know why people give money to the beggars. They are a hazard on the roadways and they are a detriment to local businesses. Please just give money or donate food to the many food banks in the area so at least you know the beggars will be getting food and not booze or drugs. Give to The Sharing Place at St. Paul Lutheran Church NOT the beggars.

Why store owners let these guys get away with begging at the entrances to their businesses is beyond me. The little strip mall over on Danforth / rt 440 has a guy begging there for years. Do they realize how many people will not go in any of the stores because of that guy? The rt 440 Pathmark has a guy in the mornings at the front door will a loud radio playing hitting people up for cash. The guy at the DD up at the Bayonne city line in a wheel chair doesn?t want a free donut he wants cash. How many stores have you been in where a beggars hold the front door open for you and expect a freakin tip? Somehow I find them all lucky me.

You have the beggars over at the circle on Newark/1&9 .. I have not seen the ?ghost? woman in a while I hope she didn?t get hit wandering around one of the busiest circles in the country. She snuck up on my side window a few times at night and scared the crap out of me.( and you thought the Staten Island clown was scary?) The beggars on rt 440/1&9 over by the Hudson Mall are the worst. Over by Culver you have the kneeling beggar who quickly kneels and prayers until you give him money. (if you don?t he mutters a few ungodly words under his breath) Over by the loop into Hudson Mall there are a few more, I swear the guy is faking the stroke walk. And then of course the infamous Larry ?movie star? Adams on Communipaw. (see below)

This link is for kickstarter? the guy was looking for funds to do a movie about ?our? Larry. A great PR movie for JC and done so cheaply. (How much is Mayor Fulop paying to boost JC?s image? Just get this guy..lol) I stuck it in so you can see the write up. He did achieve his goal and put out the short. (next link)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/u ... out-a-jersey-city-panhand

This is the 15 minute short on Larry.

http://vimeo.com/31266670

I must admit I will give the two one armed guys on rt 440 some coins (first guy in the movie) when I see them. (ok so I am breaking my own rule) but maybe I can see why they aren?t working must be harder to get a job with one arm. And that move one does tying his sneakers in traffic is amazing. (think about it)


PS ? to the people who feel sorry for the beggars listen to what Larry has to say about the guy who talks on his cellphone during his beer breaks from begging. Oh and Larry is not so innocent ether I am pretty sure this is ?our? Larry:

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... ity_men_arrested_fro.html

What does his sign say?


.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 23:30
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Quote:

score09 wrote:
No, devilsadvocate, my claim (which I think is Marxian in nature) is that the ?local loser? wouldn?t be a loser were it not for a capitalistic (turned neo liberal capitalistic) economic system. This isn?t the prosperous America of post World War II. It is a new America rooted in an extreme brand of laissez-faire economics in which ?losers short on cash? have NO shot. Any assault on the ?local loser? is misplaced since neo liberal capitalist policies are more deserving of said assault and are responsible for the deepened societal malaise that began with Reagan and Thatcher. Maybe we wouldn?t be having this discussion if we took care of our people, many of whom are veterans like the guy who was baked to death a few weeks ago in a NYC jail cell after he was arrested for trying to keep warm in a stairwell. I mean, look at the stats! America has a higher rate of infant mortality, drug abuse, alcoholism, suicide, domestic abuse, teen pregnancy, mental illness and incarcerates more people than ALL other industrialized countries governed with a more balanced view. Now why might that be?

The ?local loser?? There?s a cat who panhandles on Newark and Coles almost everyday and night. The guy looks like he?s 70 years old (which means he?s probably only 60.) He is unassuming and not at all aggressive. Sometimes, I fish out some loose change for him and sometimes I don?t. But seriously, who is going to hire this guy? How is he supposed to get a foothold? What truly efficacious services are there for individuals like him? Why are so many homeless? You think that maybe capitalism has something to do with it?


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devilsadvocate wrote:
Let me get this straight. Your claim is that because economic elites have more sway than the local loser always short on cash, this implies that all political speech by marginalized portions of society are good no matter how completely stupid they are? I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there. Most really horrible national political movements start by whipping up marginalized fools into supporting really stupid ideas.

Therefore, I'm going to absolutely tell idiots that they're being idiots and should shut up for the good of humanity. And aggressive panhandlers are absolutely awful. They aren't hated because they're poor. They're hated because they harass other people in the hopes that they can parasitically leach their money. Plenty of poor people don't do this. In fact, most don't. But if those that do are fined and/or spend some time in jail then I will happily vote for whatever politician was smart enough to sign that into law.



Maybe you don't realize that the "cat" you pass will not be affected by this law. It says it only goes after aggressive panhandlers, not the ones who just sit there.

All you are doing is fighting for the rights of aggressive bums to harass ordinary people minding their own business. Now, I haven't noticed much of a problem with them at Exchange or Grove, but a law that only goes after the aggressive bums is fine by me.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 23:01
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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I forgot to post this in regards to the thread about the ?panning? coming off of the NJ TP by Ferris. I would see two guys every morning going up and down the long line of ?out of town? commuters coming into JC. The hundreds and hundreds of cars every morning. Those two guys were better dressed and groomed than me. ( ok that?s not saying much) The one with a limp always wore 300 dollar Jordan?s. Well I would get the biggest kick out of all of the commuters handing out money to them every morning. Knowing what I knew?

Here?s the kicker a few times I would hit the Micky D?s on Grand in the late morning after rush hour. Guess who was there? Yes the two ?beggars? but not getting an oh so needed hot meal from the dollar menu they were ordering up a few McCaf? Mocha?s. I think the government should do some research into the side effects of McCaf? Mocha?s. The one limping guy didn?t limp in Micky D?s hmmm. He also didn?t limp while getting into a new white Mercedes in the parking lot. I would have loved to know who was driving, it wasn?t the two guys. I should have followed that car. The guy was probably the ring leader of some kind of city wide ?beggar? scam. Drop them off in the morning pick them up after morning rush and count the cash. (those car payments must be a killer)

Interesting about a week after the thread about the panning over by the TP/Ferris the two guys disappeared. I have not seen a beggar there since.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 22:39
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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No, devilsadvocate, my claim (which I think is Marxian in nature) is that the ?local loser? wouldn?t be a loser were it not for a capitalistic (turned neo liberal capitalistic) economic system. This isn?t the prosperous America of post World War II. It is a new America rooted in an extreme brand of laissez-faire economics in which ?losers short on cash? have NO shot. Any assault on the ?local loser? is misplaced since neo liberal capitalist policies are more deserving of said assault and are responsible for the deepened societal malaise that began with Reagan and Thatcher. Maybe we wouldn?t be having this discussion if we took care of our people, many of whom are veterans like the guy who was baked to death a few weeks ago in a NYC jail cell after he was arrested for trying to keep warm in a stairwell. I mean, look at the stats! America has a higher rate of infant mortality, drug abuse, alcoholism, suicide, domestic abuse, teen pregnancy, mental illness and incarcerates more people than ALL other industrialized countries governed with a more balanced view. Now why might that be?

The ?local loser?? There?s a cat who panhandles on Newark and Coles almost everyday and night. The guy looks like he?s 70 years old (which means he?s probably only 60.) He is unassuming and not at all aggressive. Sometimes, I fish out some loose change for him and sometimes I don?t. But seriously, who is going to hire this guy? How is he supposed to get a foothold? What truly efficacious services are there for individuals like him? Why are so many homeless? You think that maybe capitalism has something to do with it?


Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
Let me get this straight. Your claim is that because economic elites have more sway than the local loser always short on cash, this implies that all political speech by marginalized portions of society are good no matter how completely stupid they are? I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there. Most really horrible national political movements start by whipping up marginalized fools into supporting really stupid ideas.

Therefore, I'm going to absolutely tell idiots that they're being idiots and should shut up for the good of humanity. And aggressive panhandlers are absolutely awful. They aren't hated because they're poor. They're hated because they harass other people in the hopes that they can parasitically leach their money. Plenty of poor people don't do this. In fact, most don't. But if those that do are fined and/or spend some time in jail then I will happily vote for whatever politician was smart enough to sign that into law.


Posted on: 2014/3/26 22:31
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Posted on: 2014/3/26 22:26
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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score09 wrote:
Right, ?some? panhandlers do have money, lol. I frequently see them making deposits at the bank before returning to their mortgage free properties. The spirit of the proposal is the same in terms of who it targets, regardless of any grey or flimsy distinction between a ?poor? person and a ?panhandler.? The two are interchangeable in the public?s linguistic reservoir.


Not sure what this means. You mind re-phrasing?

How do you know what the spirit of the proposal is? The law seems pretty specific as to the behavior that it targets. To suggest it's targeting a group outside of those who engage in that behavior seems like mind reading to me.

Quote:

The transactional nature of reading has to do with meaning making.


What?

Quote:

The public?s reservoir of knowledge is such that the flyer?s message is clearly inferred by the recipient. Might it have been better? Perhaps through the eyes of an advertising executive, an editor at Better Homes and Gardens or a Hollywood production company but to the general public, the 99%, it looks just fine. The suggestion that it should be devoid of meaningless inaccuracies misses the point which is that the flyer?s message is clear. Rally at City Hall, period.


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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:

It doesn't target the poor, it targets a certain type of panhandling. If people with money panhandle (and some panhandlers do have money), then they should be treated the same way.

As for the flyer, a typo doesn't make the intent of the effort "dumb", but anything public facing should be produced with care. The flyer looks like it was made without anyone reviewing/proofing it. The better the message the more people it will help.


The flyer kinda got the point across but was also a little confusing.. and anytime your message is confusing, the conversions will suffer. Marketing 101.

I'm not expecting pro-level marketing by asking for basic meeting details to be in the flyer. It would seem that if one cares enough about the movement, they'd care enough to make a clear and clean flyer. But hey, they can do what they want, including making careless flyers.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 22:24
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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What was the driver behind this? It's not like there was a high profile issue recently.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 22:03
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Right, ?some? panhandlers do have money, lol. I frequently see them making deposits at the bank before returning to their mortgage free properties. The spirit of the proposal is the same in terms of who it targets, regardless of any grey or flimsy distinction between a ?poor? person and a ?panhandler.? The two are interchangeable in the public?s linguistic reservoir.

The transactional nature of reading has to do with meaning making. The public?s reservoir of knowledge is such that the flyer?s message is clearly inferred by the recipient. Might it have been better? Perhaps through the eyes of an advertising executive, an editor at Better Homes and Gardens or a Hollywood production company but to the general public, the 99%, it looks just fine. The suggestion that it should be devoid of meaningless inaccuracies misses the point which is that the flyer?s message is clear. Rally at City Hall, period.


Quote:

WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:

It doesn't target the poor, it targets a certain type of panhandling. If people with money panhandle (and some panhandlers do have money), then they should be treated the same way.

As for the flyer, a typo doesn't make the intent of the effort "dumb", but anything public facing should be produced with care. The flyer looks like it was made without anyone reviewing/proofing it. The better the message the more people it will help.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 21:40
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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score09 wrote:
Well, I looked at the flyer today and managed without the slightest degree of difficulty to comprehend fully that the rally is set for today, March 26th, 2014. Moreover, whoever created the flyer took the time to distribute its message by making the rounds and posting it for the community to see. You think we live in a democracy? That economic elites have no sway in political matters? Were this passed, it most certainly WOULD make it a crime to be poor since it aims to target the poor. This type of grassroots effort -- however misguided and ?idiotic? you THINK it is -- ought to be LAUDED. Not to be met with cynicism, derision and disdain.

So, to characterize the flyer as ?dumb? based on a typographical error that a fourth grader could easily deduce and by disparaging the time and effort vested to rise up and challenge the status quo is really quite smart. Not.

As to the ?dumb? ideas underlying the proposed ordinance, I?ll agree that it makes little sense to impose monetary fines upon the homeless. This much I?ll give you. But only from a humanitarian stance and not a pragmatic one.


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caj11 wrote:

Let's just say... dumb on both sides.

This proposed law is just dumb, because enforcement would be impossible and how in the hell would a $1250 fine ever be collected from an alleged violator?

Furthermore, this flyer is dumb too, because Jersey City doesn't make any appropriations for defense spending and/or the war in Iraq (or anywhere else). Nor can it be said that the city makes it a "crime to be poor".

I would love to see whatever circus this council meeting turns into. Two sets of idiots duking it out.

Oh, and according to this flyer, the protest was planned and happened a year ago, on a Tuesday (March 26, 2013???).


Right on! Fight for the rights of aggressive bums to harass ordinary citizens minding their own business!

Posted on: 2014/3/26 21:33
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Re: Prohibiting Aggressive Begging, Soliciting, and Panhandling
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Let me get this straight. Your claim is that because economic elites have more sway than the local loser always short on cash, this implies that all political speech by marginalized portions of society are good no matter how completely stupid they are? I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there. Most really horrible national political movements start by whipping up marginalized fools into supporting really stupid ideas.

Therefore, I'm going to absolutely tell idiots that they're being idiots and should shut up for the good of humanity. And aggressive panhandlers are absolutely awful. They aren't hated because they're poor. They're hated because they harass other people in the hopes that they can parasitically leach their money. Plenty of poor people don't do this. In fact, most don't. But if those that do are fined and/or spend some time in jail then I will happily vote for whatever politician was smart enough to sign that into law.

Quote:

score09 wrote:
Well, I looked at the flyer today and managed without the slightest degree of difficulty to comprehend fully that the rally is set for today, March 26th, 2014. Moreover, whoever created the flyer took the time to distribute its message by making the rounds and posting it for the community to see. You think we live in a democracy? That economic elites have no sway in political matters? Were this passed, it most certainly WOULD make it a crime to be poor since it aims to target the poor. This type of grassroots effort -- however misguided and ?idiotic? you THINK it is -- ought to be LAUDED. Not to be met with cynicism, derision and disdain.

So, to characterize the flyer as ?dumb? based on a typographical error that a fourth grader could easily deduce and by disparaging the time and effort vested to rise up and challenge the status quo is really quite smart. Not.

As to the ?dumb? ideas underlying the proposed ordinance, I?ll agree that it makes little sense to impose monetary fines upon the homeless. This much I?ll give you. But only from a humanitarian stance and not a pragmatic one.


Quote:

caj11 wrote:

Let's just say... dumb on both sides.

This proposed law is just dumb, because enforcement would be impossible and how in the hell would a $1250 fine ever be collected from an alleged violator?

Furthermore, this flyer is dumb too, because Jersey City doesn't make any appropriations for defense spending and/or the war in Iraq (or anywhere else). Nor can it be said that the city makes it a "crime to be poor".

I would love to see whatever circus this council meeting turns into. Two sets of idiots duking it out.

Oh, and according to this flyer, the protest was planned and happened a year ago, on a Tuesday (March 26, 2013???).

Posted on: 2014/3/26 21:25
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