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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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The great thing about the reval delay is that it has begun to give other areas of JC a chance to catch up with the price increases first seen in the Waterfront & Downtown areas. Just look at the prices in the areas all around Journal Square -- and also look at the prices for much of the Heights - now even Greenville has begun to really shoot up in the last year or two! It is a shame the reval can't be put off just a few more years! But phasing in increases would be the best thing to do!

Posted on: 2/17 16:28
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Well said bodhipooh. I no longer have the stomach to feed this troll.

Posted on: 2/17 15:33
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I wonder Ralph_Abutts is the same person that some years back was arguing the merits of downtowners paying less because they consume less city services. Of course, he is pushing self serving logic as far as the phase-in idea, then used poor math to try and disprove a fact (that they are more "overpayers" than "underpayers") and now pursuing the "well, us downtowners are not free loading off the city/state/etc" argument to justify the underpaying of taxes. At every turn, he is being purposefully obtuse: first by equating the number of overpayers necessarily being the same as underpayers since the reval must be revenue neutral (others have clearly explained why that is not the case) and now he is dismissing Brewster's point by arguing that when Brewster stated "That argument is a nonstarter as far as the US tax system is concerned" is not applicable because we are talking about local property taxes.

In the US, property taxes are always, and everywhere, levied as a percentage of property value. That's what Brewster meant, Ralph_Abutts. For reasons that defy logic, JC has gone almost 30 years without updating property values, and therefore taxation of local real estate is incredibly out of whack. Trying to argue that those well off consume less resources and therefore should pay less (in percentage) than others not so well off is a non starter for a variety of reasons, but mostly because that;'s just not how things work.

How about the young professional (such as myself) that lives in DTJC, but uses almost no city services (beyond street parking, and roads to come and go at times) and no kids in the system. I reckon I should pay a couple of hundred of dollars a year. But, that's not how things work. You don't pay for what you consume, that's not how taxation works in the US, in NJ, or in JC.

Posted on: 2/17 14:43
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:

brewster wrote:
That argument is a nonstarter as far as the US tax system is concerned.


That's correct > your argument is a nonstarter because the topic is about local property taxes.


To you point Ralph a condo living downtowner paying 10k on a 800k property probably "consumes" less resources then someone in Greenville on a 25x100 lot paying 6k in taxes

Posted on: 2/17 14:09
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[i]
brewster wrote:
That argument is a nonstarter as far as the US tax system is concerned.
[/i]

That's correct > your argument is a nonstarter because the topic is about local property taxes.

Posted on: 2/17 13:40
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
Have you considered that the "overpayers" consume less of what they are paying for than the "underpayers"?

If so, then the use of those terms seems rather contradictory and I think it is best to rethink what it means to be an "overpayer".


That argument is a nonstarter as far as the US tax system is concerned. No one has gotten out of paying property tax because they don't have children for example. You're desperately reaching for some justification to continue having someone else pay your fair taxes.

Posted on: 2/17 13:34
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Have you considered that the "overpayers" consume less of what they are paying for than the "underpayers"?

If so, then the use of those terms seems rather contradictory and I think it is best to rethink what it means to be an "overpayer".

Posted on: 2/17 12:33
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
And if you truly understand a reval, you would know "overpayers" do not exceed "underpayers".


In all likelihood, that is an incorrect statement. In dollar terms, true. But the reallocation of the tax burden is not a one to one exercise. It is an almost certainty that the number of overpayers is far greater than the underpayers, but that each of the underpayers has been underpaying by a much greater amount than what each of the overpayers have overpaid. Just think about the value of the homes that are most prominently underpaying relative to the areas that get pointed to most frequently as overpayers. One $2 million underpaying house covers a lot of overpaying houses in Greenville, for instance.

Posted on: 2/17 11:49
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Jersey City's reval to begin soon

By Terrence T. McDonald | The Jersey Journal
Email the author | Follow on Twitter
on February 17, 2017 at 3:00 AM

An issue with Jersey City's tax maps that has postponed the already long-stalled property revaluation has been largely settled, meaning the reval will soon begin.

City spokeswoman Jennifer Morrill said the city is scheduling community meetings starting next month to give anxious homeowners an overview of the reval process. The city has not undergone a complete reval since 1988.

The schedule of meetings has not been finalized, Morrill said. Home inspections would likely begin soon after the meetings are conducted.

http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index ... ys_reval_to_begin_so.html


Posted on: 2/17 11:13
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Please tell us how you explain to owners who have been overpaying for many years, that outnumber the underpayers


If a homeowner thinks they are "overpaying", they are free to move. The choice is freely theirs to make and there will always be someone to purchase their property.

And if you truly understand a reval, you would know "overpayers" do not exceed "underpayers".


Nice. "Hey neighbor, get the fuck out if you don't like being ripped off". What you don't seem to understand is when an expensive property is paying 1/3 the rate of properties worth far less, it takes more of them to balance the books. A $1m home paying 1% needs 3 $333k homes paying 3% to balance their nice low tax. If those homes all appealed their assessments it would take a tax hike to keep the proportional rate low on the $1m house, so EVERYONE ELSE would be overpaying. It's zero sum game! Do you even know what that means?

Posted on: 2/17 10:54
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Please tell us how you explain to owners who have been overpaying for many years, that outnumber the underpayers


If a homeowner thinks they are "overpaying", they are free to move. The choice is freely theirs to make and there will always be someone to purchase their property.

And if you truly understand a reval, you would know "overpayers" do not exceed "underpayers".

Posted on: 2/17 9:35
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what will likely happen after the reval - there will be a be spotlight on city spending and continued tax abatements coming from home owners (mostly, but not all downtown).

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bodhipooh wrote:
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mfadam wrote:
Steve knows he's on thin ice with a lot of the DTJC voters who are less than pleased with what he has actually done while in office.

Throw in another 10-20K per year in RE taxes for the $1mm plus rowhouse crowd and you can bet the votes/donations will be tough to come by...


Exactly. So, it should come as NO SURPRISE that this administration will do ANYTHING possible to put off the reval until after the election happening later this year. Once re-elected, the administration would be more likely to survive the repercussions of the reval by weathering the criticism and fallout until the next election in 2021.

Posted on: 2/16 22:31
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135jc wrote:
You can't use Newark or Patterson as a comparison either. Their property values are much lower and they employ the same services as JC. Also aside from sales tax what other taxes do NY city residents pay? The outer boroughs have extremely low taxes and tremendous services.


How about NYC income tax?? They also have a stupendous commercial tax base, you simply can't compare anywhere to NYC. But the biggie is they simply tax small properties at a fraction of others. Here's their tax page, class 1 is 1-3 units, anything more is one of others. It's pretty byzantine, having different equalization rates and tax rates for each group.

http://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/taxes/property-tax-rates.page
Quote:
Your Assessed Value is based on a percentage of your Market Value. This percentage is known as the Level of Assessment or Assessment Ratio. Your Assessment Ratio depends on your tax class.

Assessment Ratios
Tax class 1 6%
Tax class 2, 3 and 4 45%


Here's a page that tries to explain it. http://commongroundnyc.org/nicemess.htm

Have you ever checked out tax rates elsewhere? We're actually right in the middle for North Jersey. Try Bergen County http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/gtrber15.pdf

Posted on: 2/16 22:09
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135jc wrote:
Jersey City market values are driven by it's close proximity to NYC. I can't stand when someone pretends that a 700k brownstone is the equivalent of a 700k house in the suburbs sitting on 2 acres of property. The brownstone in JC sits on a 25x100 lot if lucky. There is a larger tax base here plus tremendous business and industry to offset taxes. The truth is those in cities should pay less then those in sparsely populated areas. If u want to use NYC as a comparison go ahead. Taxes on similarly valued property are a fraction of what people in JC pay even using the old assessed values.

And Brewster you are constantly playing devil's advocate. Judging from the fact u are a long time resident of Hamilton Park you may just be in for a surprise when the reval hits.


The budget line differences between real cities and suburbs is tremendous. Everything from uniformed services to road work cost more due to more usage. Even our roads decay much faster from the beating they take. You can't compare to NYC, it chooses to tax residential property artificially low and compensate in other taxes. Compare instead to any close-in city in Bergen, or Westchester or Nassau and our taxes look normal.

And no, I won't be surprised, but neither do I think I should be getting special treatment because I somehow deserve it. On the other hand my taxes are not as low as many round here so I don't think they'll quite double. But they might.

G-P, there are people paying 3x the effective tax rate of some Downtowners, because their assessments are way too high. FMV comps will lower them, I got one of mine lowered 2 years ago.


You can't use Newark or Patterson as a comparison either. Their property values are much lower and they employ the same services as JC. Also aside from sales tax what other taxes do NY city residents pay? The outer boroughs have extremely low taxes and tremendous services.

Posted on: 2/16 20:43
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135jc wrote:
Jersey City market values are driven by it's close proximity to NYC. I can't stand when someone pretends that a 700k brownstone is the equivalent of a 700k house in the suburbs sitting on 2 acres of property. The brownstone in JC sits on a 25x100 lot if lucky. There is a larger tax base here plus tremendous business and industry to offset taxes. The truth is those in cities should pay less then those in sparsely populated areas. If u want to use NYC as a comparison go ahead. Taxes on similarly valued property are a fraction of what people in JC pay even using the old assessed values.

And Brewster you are constantly playing devil's advocate. Judging from the fact u are a long time resident of Hamilton Park you may just be in for a surprise when the reval hits.


The budget line differences between real cities and suburbs is tremendous. Everything from uniformed services to road work cost more due to more usage. Even our roads decay much faster from the beating they take. You can't compare to NYC, it chooses to tax residential property artificially low and compensate in other taxes. Compare instead to any close-in city in Bergen, or Westchester or Nassau and our taxes look normal.

And no, I won't be surprised, but neither do I think I should be getting special treatment because I somehow deserve it. On the other hand my taxes are not as low as many round here so I don't think they'll quite double. But they might.

G-P, there are people paying 3x the effective tax rate of some Downtowners, because their assessments are way too high. FMV comps will lower them, I got one of mine lowered 2 years ago.

Posted on: 2/16 20:36
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135jc wrote:
My original point was in response to people trying to compare property values and tax rates in Jersey city to those in the suburbs. It is not a fair comparison since an area with sparse population with a smaller base should be paying a higher rate. Using Summit as an example you can see that even with the town assuming most of the education costs they pay a far less tax rate then Jersey City pre or post reval.


https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7-P ... t-NJ-07901/40063490_zpid/


There's far more to it than that-large, urban cities like JC are rife with corruption, bloat, patronage, etc that adds to taxes (and yes, I know the crime is higher so you need more police, more density means more fire department support). If a city governs itself well and keeps costs down good for them. Most suburbs don't give out PILOT's like homeowners giving out Halloween candy, either.

Posted on: 2/16 18:33
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My original point was in response to people trying to compare property values and tax rates in Jersey city to those in the suburbs. It is not a fair comparison since an area with sparse population with a smaller base should be paying a higher rate. Using Summit as an example you can see that even with the town assuming most of the education costs they pay a far less tax rate then Jersey City pre or post reval.


https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7-P ... t-NJ-07901/40063490_zpid/

Posted on: 2/16 17:21
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It's hard to make a direct comparison of suburban (say, Summit) real estate taxes to JC. The biggest part of most suburban budget is education, and Summit, for example, covers 86% of its own school costs. JC self funds about 17%.

Posted on: 2/16 16:55
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not sure I follow your logic. Of course a highly populated city should theoretically have lower taxes than a suburb with 2 acre minimum lots. JC has a much bigger denominator than Summit. Yet post-Reval DTJC owners will be paying Summit type property taxes. I am not sure people are going to like that given the overall value proposition. Brooklyn rowhouses pay much lower percentages in RE taxes relative to FMV as NYC has an even bigger denominator than JC.

My view is that JC taxes at 1.8 - 2.2% of FMV will be a strong headwind if the Reval is done accurately. I think people would rather pay a higher price for their asset (equity) and lower taxes than the other way around. We'll find out eventually...

Posted on: 2/16 16:23
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Posted on: 2/16 16:06
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dr_nick_riviera wrote:
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MDM wrote:
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brewster wrote:
That property we're discussing shows how ridiculous a disparity there is between comps and cap rates. Ignoramuses like Yvonne have complained about this before, that houses are valued more than commercial, and now it's going to be on steroids.


I suspect there will be many investment properties that are technically residential (4 units or less) that might become cash flow negative after the reval. I wonder if we will have a flood of buildings for sale hitting the market say about six months after the reval take effect?


I do think a positive, unintended consequence will be that it will finally get the owners of a lot of vacant lots that dot Downtown to stop waiting around for a super lucrative offer and finally sell. I also think a lot of the slumlords will find their properties too expensive to carry and may force out some of the remaining riff raff.


Reval may be best thing that ever happened then. Have the appraisers even started yet? No way the city is even remotely on track.

Posted on: 2/16 15:58
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brewster wrote:
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GrovePath wrote:
Most on here who want the reval are real estate speculators who bought buildings in the last 10 years and got good deals because the taxes were a bit high and now they want to get a brake on those taxes.

Please stop acting like you want to help the poor.

GP, you usually don't post this silly. Any RE professional who buys an overtaxed building immediately appeals the tax. It's the uneducated homeowners who are getting ripped off.


Wow...

Resized Image


As any RE investor (like yourself) knows -- it is hard to get RE taxes reduced much beyond whatever the comps are for your RE investment area (ie. The Heights).


Posted on: 2/16 15:44
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mfadam wrote:
The phase in logic doesn't add up. Most DTJC rowhouse owners CAN PAY, they just don't want to pay. The artist who bought in 1995 and has a $1mm unrealized capital gain can borrow against equity to pay. The yuppie who bought in the last 3 years can pay.

Turn your argument around - do you think the guy in BELA who has been overpaying for years thinks the phase in is fair? Should he keep overpaying albeit in smaller amounts each year?

JC is long overdue to fix this reverse Robin Hood mess.

Any reval appraisals will take into consideration the new tax structure when valuing the homes. It is simple bond math.

The bigger issue is will DTJC rowhouses be attractive when they sport 30K in property taxes. I think the psychology is the million dollar question..


Jersey City market values are driven by it's close proximity to NYC. I can't stand when someone pretends that a 700k brownstone is the equivalent of a 700k house in the suburbs sitting on 2 acres of property. The brownstone in JC sits on a 25x100 lot if lucky. There is a larger tax base here plus tremendous business and industry to offset taxes. The truth is those in cities should pay less then those in sparsely populated areas. If u want to use NYC as a comparison go ahead. Taxes on similarly valued property are a fraction of what people in JC pay even using the old assessed values.

And Brewster you are constantly playing devil's advocate. Judging from the fact u are a long time resident of Hamilton Park you may just be in for a surprise when the reval hits.

Posted on: 2/16 15:28
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GrovePath wrote:
Most on here who want the reval are real estate speculators who bought buildings in the last 10 years and got good deals because the taxes were a bit high and now they want to get a brake on those taxes.

Please stop acting like you want to help the poor.

GP, you usually don't post this silly. Any RE professional who buys an overtaxed building immediately appeals the tax. It's the uneducated homeowners who are getting ripped off.

Posted on: 2/16 15:06
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Most on here who want the reval are real estate speculators who bought buildings in the last 10 years and got good deals because the taxes were a bit high and now they want to get a brake on those taxes.

Please stop acting like you want to help the poor.


Posted on: 2/16 14:07
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
I'm not proposing how that be done, but it should be done, and only a one time exception. *Every* property owner and the city itself will be much better off with that approach than following the current statute, which under the current scenario will wreck havoc on the city.


Please tell us how you explain to owners who have been overpaying for many years, that outnumber the underpayers, that it's in their best interest to overpay a few more so others can continue to underpay?

This has been in the works and the press for quite a few years, everybody should be properly braced by now. Some like DanL and Yvonne have sold (leaving much gain on the table), but it'll be a surprise to few. Dragging it out further is pandering.

Posted on: 2/16 12:02
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The phase in logic doesn't add up. Most DTJC rowhouse owners CAN PAY, they just don't want to pay. The artist who bought in 1995 and has a $1mm unrealized capital gain can borrow against equity to pay. The yuppie who bought in the last 3 years can pay.

Turn your argument around - do you think the guy in BELA who has been overpaying for years thinks the phase in is fair? Should he keep overpaying albeit in smaller amounts each year?

JC is long overdue to fix this reverse Robin Hood mess.

Any reval appraisals will take into consideration the new tax structure when valuing the homes. It is simple bond math.

The bigger issue is will DTJC rowhouses be attractive when they sport 30K in property taxes. I think the psychology is the million dollar question..

Posted on: 2/16 11:58
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T-Bird wrote:
How would a phase-in work, though? To Brewster's point - the only way you can not delay fully raising the taxes of those due an increase is by delaying lowering the taxes of those due a cut, unless there is either something else to fill the gap like state aid or the city goes without a chunk of revenue. Neither seems likely.


By phasing-in the reval, those who will end up with lower property taxes will do so with permanency.

The tax reval statutes were written under the assumption a municipality regularly does a reval. Obviously, J.C. hasn't and from the political perspective, there is all the more incentive to dig its heels in further and delay.

Without a phase-in, once the reval is complete, you will have property owners that will have their taxes double, triple, or quadruple overnight.

When that happens, many will be unable to pay their property taxes. When they don't pay, guess who pays? Answer: everyone else when the tax rate increases.

Additionally, property taxes influence real estate values. When your taxes increase 4xs overnight, that is not good for the value of your home.

Property tax amounts are determined, in part by the assessed (loosely market) value of the property.

When the property values tank, those owners will appeal their tax bill successfully. When they pay less, that means everyone else pays more - without making cuts to the budget.

My point is, yes there will be folks who will save on taxes, post reval, but they can save even more if the reval is phased in.

I'm not proposing how that be done, but it should be done, and only a one time exception. *Every* property owner and the city itself will be much better off with that approach than following the current statute, which under the current scenario will wreck havoc on the city.

I wrote about this some time ago, here. Sometimes it takes a little foresight to think one step ahead.

Posted on: 2/16 11:06
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bodhipooh wrote:

If you are sitting on a property 700K or more, which is pretty much most of DTJC, you *are* wealthy by pretty much any metric out there. Even by regional standards, you are doing very well... time to get this reval done and really get local fair taxation in place.


Except that most of them have large mortgages, student debt, car payments, and spend too much of their disposable income on dining out, etc.

Have you heard of the expression "house rich, cash poor"? This is common among homeowners downtown...and everywhere.

Posted on: 2/16 11:00
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When do 2018 appraised values have to be sent out? Is it possible we have the election on November 7 then get our new appraised values/tax a few days later?

Posted on: 2/16 10:59
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