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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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135jc wrote:
Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.


And how is that fair to people overpaying? Seems a great way to create a class action suit. I'm amazed there isn't one already over the long delayed reval. I'm not lawyer, but surely you can sue for being overcharged for many years because the city ignored the state law requiring a reval when the equalization drops below 85%.

Posted on: 2/15 20:01
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When Newark was forced to do a reval, I spoke to one of their Councilmen, sorry I forgot who. He told me he had a bill in the state legislation to allow Newark to have a five year increment period. I don't know what happened but usually Newark gets legislation passed.

Posted on: 2/15 16:00
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135jc wrote:
Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.


There was talk of getting the state Legislature to OK that but I do not believe the city can legally do it.

Posted on: 2/15 15:51
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Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.

Posted on: 2/15 15:49
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Fair Haven is quite close to NYC ferries, and it's a lot more relaxing than auto/bus/train commuting. I would imagine most living there who work in NYC can afford the higher cost.

Posted on: 1/26 14:47
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This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.

yes, i just love fair haven's proximity to manhattan and their quick access to manhattan!


Grew up in Fair Haven. My Dad's commute to Manhattan was hellish. The commuter trains were horrible back then (1970s, bankrupt Central Railroad). He just ended up driving... Then his car while parked in Manhattan got stolen.

Posted on: 1/26 11:47
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This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.

yes, i just love fair haven's proximity to manhattan and their quick access to manhattan!

Posted on: 1/26 11:15
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Those taxes were based off the old house before they tore it down. The most recent property card was at $16k, a 23% increase from the 13k. That was before it sold for 1.7M. That house will eventually be up to the high 20's.

Posted on: 1/26 10:54
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Sutherland wrote:
This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.



Not sure what point you are trying to make... there's only two ways we can get lower taxes in JC:
- double real estate across the city, thereby doubling property tax revenue, while somehow maintaining the city budget at the same level as now
- find ways to slash the city budget (start with all the graft and corruption, of course)

You can't compare our city with another one without taking into consideration all aspects: what's in the city budget, what's total revenue in property taxes, how many residents live in each city, what services is the city providing.

In a very well to do town, public assistance may be near zero, which I'm sure it's a large chunk of our budget (the city provides grants for social programs and such, along with other subsidies such as public housing). Also, I think our large geographical size works against us: lots of roads and infrastructure to maintain. Some NJ towns are tiny, with much lower vehicular traffic, which I'm sure results in a lot less money spent on road maintenance. Also, and perhaps most significant, are the police and fire department budgets: in between pensions, salaries and all other operational costs, those are two huge budget items.

Now, imagine what would happen to our taxes if we were some day required to fund a larger share of our school budget. :o

Posted on: 1/26 10:33
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This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.


Posted on: 1/26 10:18
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so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html



$3.595 million for a property with annual revenue of $131,000?? Plus, I'm pretty sure their yearly financial pro forma is wrong for not including maintenance, reserves and a vacancy allowance. Insurance also seems low for a four-family investment.
are rents that highn in dtjc? $2,750 per month per apt seems like a lot to me, but maybe i'm behind the times


$2,750/month sounds very low to me for a floor-through apartment in DTJC, particularly considering they have a few amenities like a deck, and laundry facilities right in the basement. People are now paying 2.5K for 1bd/1ba in new construction, and 3.5k for 2bd/1ba. If you can find a 3bd in new construction, you will pay north of 4K, with some places getting close to 5K. That's the DTJC real estate market...! :o

Posted on: 1/24 8:14
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mfadam wrote:
so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html



$3.595 million for a property with annual revenue of $131,000?? Plus, I'm pretty sure their yearly financial pro forma is wrong for not including maintenance, reserves and a vacancy allowance. Insurance also seems low for a four-family investment.
are rents that highn in dtjc? $2,750 per month per apt seems like a lot to me, but maybe i'm behind the times

Posted on: 1/24 2:46
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That property we're discussing shows how ridiculous a disparity there is between comps and cap rates. Ignoramuses like Yvonne have complained about this before, that houses are valued more than commercial, and now it's going to be on steroids.


I suspect there will be many investment properties that are technically residential (4 units or less) that might become cash flow negative after the reval. I wonder if we will have a flood of buildings for sale hitting the market say about six months after the reval take effect?


I do think a positive, unintended consequence will be that it will finally get the owners of a lot of vacant lots that dot Downtown to stop waiting around for a super lucrative offer and finally sell. I also think a lot of the slumlords will find their properties too expensive to carry and may force out some of the remaining riff raff.

Posted on: 1/23 20:19
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brewster wrote:
That property we're discussing shows how ridiculous a disparity there is between comps and cap rates. Ignoramuses like Yvonne have complained about this before, that houses are valued more than commercial, and now it's going to be on steroids.


I suspect there will be many investment properties that are technically residential (4 units or less) that might become cash flow negative after the reval. I wonder if we will have a flood of buildings for sale hitting the market say about six months after the reval take effect?

Posted on: 1/23 19:50
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I must say I am looking forward with fascination to seeing what the citys appraisers do about the commercial properties that are valued by income. That property we're discussing shows how ridiculous a disparity there is between comps and cap rates. Ignoramuses like Yvonne have complained about this before, that houses are valued more than commercial, and now it's going to be on steroids.

Posted on: 1/23 19:22
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the FHA appraisal form uses three different methodologies, comps, rents and replacement. Depends on the appraiser the different weights applied to each method and coming up with the final appraisal. A non-owner-occupied investment 4U should have more weight on rents but the incompetence and venality of appraisers these days is beyond comprehension.[/quote]

I forgot about FHA. I did two 203k loans and they were an experience I would rather forget.

Rent played almost no role in the conventional loans I did years back, which meant I had rather tiny mortgages (and lots of capital stranded in the property). BCB bank was the only one willing to do a mortgage based on rent and improved value. They were also the only bank that gave me a reasonable construction loan.

Other than 203k loans, I financed the bulk of the construction work on credit cards (again.. something I would rather forget).

Posted on: 1/23 17:24
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At 4U they weight it more as a commercial by rents than a residential by comps, and even the most corrupt appraiser can't make those numbers work. The question is why sell it as a 4U subject to tougher rent based appraisals rather than condos where comps are all?



1 to 4 units is generally considered 'residential' and rents don't count. Pre housing bubble days, I had an issue getting mortgages in part because the comp sales around me were so low. The comparison were useless because they were non-renovated buildings. My rent receivable were 100% to 150% higher, but since I was 'residential' rental income didn't count towards the appraised value.

the FHA appraisal form uses three different methodologies, comps, rents and replacement. Depends on the appraiser the different weights applied to each method and coming up with the final appraisal. A non-owner-occupied investment 4U should have more weight on rents but the incompetence and venality of appraisers these days is beyond comprehension.

Posted on: 1/23 17:20
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mfadam wrote:
so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html



$3.595 million for a property with annual revenue of $131,000?? Plus, I'm pretty sure their yearly financial pro forma is wrong for not including maintenance, reserves and a vacancy allowance. Insurance also seems low for a four-family investment.

Posted on: 1/23 13:29
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totally agree. Simple math is not fear mongering. RE brokers really should do the right thing and disclose the probability that many homes will see significant tax increases. I'm not holding my breath...

I really think the test for DTJC RE is psychological. It was one thing when you could get a single family rowhouse for $1mm and change and pay 12K in taxes. It's a whole different ballgame when you are paying $2mm+ and 40K in RE taxes. All of sudden the so-so services, weak public schools, PATH crowding, etc don't seem like such a good value for the RE taxes being paid. Put another way - will people pay Summit, NJ taxes and accept inner city service levels.

Time will tell...

Posted on: 1/23 12:18
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mfadam wrote:
so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html


The property you mention is paying 0.6% in property taxes, assuming it sells at the asking price. Even if it was to sell at 2.5, they would be paying 0.8%... another property that can expect their tax bill to more than double in 2018.

Almost ever single non-abated 07302 property currently listed in Zillow with a value exceeding 600K is paying property taxes of around 1% (some slightly lower, others slight higher). The ones valued at 1 MM or higher are often paying comically low taxes (there is one listed at 1.2 MM paying a smidgen over 5K!) Yet, some people here are saying that predicting dramatically higher tax bills for those properties is fear mongering... I suppose sticking your head in the sand is less scary than acknowledging the truth.

Posted on: 1/23 11:48
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At 4U they weight it more as a commercial by rents than a residential by comps, and even the most corrupt appraiser can't make those numbers work. The question is why sell it as a 4U subject to tougher rent based appraisals rather than condos where comps are all?



1 to 4 units is generally considered 'residential' and rents don't count. Pre housing bubble days, I had an issue getting mortgages in part because the comp sales around me were so low. The comparison were useless because they were non-renovated buildings. My rent receivable were 100% to 150% higher, but since I was 'residential' rental income didn't count towards the appraised value.


Posted on: 1/22 21:18
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Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.


Back in sane days a well priced rental would go for 100x monthly rent, that would make this worth $1.1m. But sane days are past. For an investor loan a bank would never do it, the numbers are crazy, that's a GRM of 27.5! At 4U they weight it more as a commercial by rents than a residential by comps, and even the most corrupt appraiser can't make those numbers work. The question is why sell it as a 4U subject to tougher rent based appraisals rather than condos where comps are all?

Posted on: 1/22 19:25
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so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html

Posted on: 1/22 17:45
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So you are stating that taxes are low due to the market value of your area based on your income ?


No, I'm stating the effective tax rate (how I and most people define "high" vs 'Low") for JC is average for North Jersey and the Metropolitan Area with the exception of NYC with it's subsidized taxes. If you want to state a different measure that's fine, but define it rather than just saying "the taxes are too damn high!"

Dan, to base an argument about taxes on the notion that all the properties would have been built anyway is quite a big assumption. It's an accusation that the entire abatement program is corrupt top to bottom, beginning to no end in sight. I doubt that's true, though certainly the most recent DT abatements are unnecessary. But something like the NJCU project sounds like what the program was meant for, development in a "blighted area".

Posted on: 1/14 20:25
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brewster, my information comes from the county administrator, we pay his salary to come up with his facts that I quote. It is not my facts at all.


You see, this is the evasion and doubling down that makes you look like an idiot. I'm certain the county administrator did not tell you that JC's taxes are "high". "High" is a relative term, you do know what that means Ms Former Teacher? I believe it's covered on Sesame Street. The answer you are unwilling to address is what is our taxes are "high" relative to. When I say they're not high for our area, you burble, say nonsense, repeat yourself at the first opportunity, and then wonder why people think you're disingenuous and/or a fool.

Wrong on so many levels Brewster. So you are stating that taxes are low due to the market value of your area based on your income ?

Posted on: 1/14 18:02
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It's hard to compute the net change in taxes due to PILOTing, but assuming that these buildings would be built anyway even if they had to pay normal taxes, my guess is that on the net, JC's PILOTed properties increase taxes for everyone else in Jersey City and certainly increase taxes for people living in other towns in Hudson County.



Posted on: 1/14 13:28
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brewster, my information comes from the county administrator, we pay his salary to come up with his facts that I quote. It is not my facts at all.


You see, this is the evasion and doubling down that makes you look like an idiot. I'm certain the county administrator did not tell you that JC's taxes are "high". "High" is a relative term, you do know what that means Ms Former Teacher? I believe it's covered on Sesame Street. The answer you are unwilling to address is what is our taxes are "high" relative to. When I say they're not high for our area, you burble, say nonsense, repeat yourself at the first opportunity, and then wonder why people think you're disingenuous and/or a fool.

Posted on: 1/14 12:37
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She also says again and again that "taxes are high" without justifying it even when called out on it repeatedly. Not to mention always injecting the abatement issue into the reval discussion, when they actually have absolutely nothing to do with each other. We'd need a reval even if the Yvonne the Witch of the West (bank) waved her wand and made the abatements disappear, since the reval is about fairness between the taxpayers.

It truly appears she lacks the wits to understand these issues, and when called out always doubles down like her man tRump.


brewster, my information comes from the county administrator, we pay his salary to come up with his facts that I quote. It is not my facts at all.


I think it's fair to say that abatements lower your municipal taxes and raise your school taxes and county taxes, although the increase in school and county taxes is a missed offset opportunity, and not a true, net increase.

JC structures PILOT agreements so that the municipality gets more money than it would from regular taxation. For instance, instead of getting 50% of a $1 million all-in tax bill, it gets 95% of $750k PILOT payment.

PILOTed buildings don't give the schools any money at all and pay county fees at a significantly reduced rate.

If JC's PILOTed buildings paid normal taxes, they would offset the overall school levy and by a small but palpable amount for county taxes.

Since a third of JC is PILOTed (by far the state's highest total), the effect on school taxes is very significant.

My estimate is that JC's PILOTed buildings would have an Equalized Valuation of about $10-11 billion 2017. Hudson County's total Equalized Valuation is $71 billion.

Jersey City's PILOTed buildings are thus 15% of Hudson County's total. They do pay some money to the county, but 15% is a palpable impact even on the county's tax levy for the owners of non-PILOTed buildings.

It's hard to compute the net change in taxes due to PILOTing, but assuming that these buildings would be built anyway even if they had to pay normal taxes, my guess is that on the net, JC's PILOTed properties increase taxes for everyone else in Jersey City and certainly increase taxes for people living in other towns in Hudson County.

Steve Sweeney is actually trying to reform the PILOT law. It's part of his state aid reform package, although he's not spoken in public (AFAIK) about what changes he wants to happen with PILOTs.

Posted on: 1/14 10:24
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She also says again and again that "taxes are high" without justifying it even when called out on it repeatedly. Not to mention always injecting the abatement issue into the reval discussion, when they actually have absolutely nothing to do with each other. We'd need a reval even if the Yvonne the Witch of the West (bank) waved her wand and made the abatements disappear, since the reval is about fairness between the taxpayers.

It truly appears she lacks the wits to understand these issues, and when called out always doubles down like her man tRump.


brewster, my information comes from the county administrator, we pay his salary to come up with his facts that I quote. It is not my facts at all.

Posted on: 1/14 10:00
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She also says again and again that "taxes are high" without justifying it even when called out on it repeatedly. Not to mention always injecting the abatement issue into the reval discussion, when they actually have absolutely nothing to do with each other. We'd need a reval even if the Yvonne the Witch of the West (bank) waved her wand and made the abatements disappear, since the reval is about fairness between the taxpayers.

It truly appears she lacks the wits to understand these issues, and when called out always doubles down like her man tRump.

Posted on: 1/13 23:28
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