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Re: The futility of gun control
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Several points here (I'm not an expert, but I think "average" citizens should weigh in on topics of interest in their communities):
* There is some validity to the point that it is futile to try and control guns -- there is something like a 300-year supply of guns out there. But, that doesn't mean we should just throw our hands up in the air and allow the bloodshed to continue. * It is well-known that loose gun regulations in southern states leads to a flow of illegal guns from south to north. This must stop. Wholesaling guns to individuals is a problem. How many guns do you need to buy a month? Some common sense please. * Plenty of industries are tightly regulated. No reason to allow "private" no-background-check sales of guns at gun shows. This is just plain stupidity. * Sportsmen should be allowed to have guns. * All the regulation in the world would not have prevented the Sandy Hook massacre. This occurred because a mother had guns in the home -- legally -- and her mentally unstable son got control of them. What might have helped is education. It doesn't sound like the woman was much of a sportsman, used the guns for practice shooting, or much paid attention. She was just paranoid and the guns were just "laying around." Education that points out that people like her are MORE likely to be shot, not less by having guns in the home may (I say "may) have helped. * I would like to see less guns in the hands of people in urban areas (that is, I don't believe an "arms race" will help matters). I am ambivalent about how many guns should be available in rural areas (I feel that should be up to the people who live there). But to the extent that the behavior of people in rural areas affects urban areas (my area) with things like loose gun sales, then clearly what happens in one neighborhood affects safety in another. * Tightening up the sale of bullets may (again "may") help alleviate issues in urban areas.
Posted on: 2013/7/3 3:58
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I cook with wine, sometimes I even add it to the food.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Hey Frank - I am a Liberal in most issues, I support marriage equality, raising the minimum wage, women's reproductive rights, environmentally conscious, voted for Obama twice and an Atheist.
But firearms is my sport and recreation, I'm too old for real sports such as soccer. I understand that the NRA (which I am a lifelong member), is funded by the firearms industry to lobby for less restrictive measures in order to sell more guns. Who else is going to fight for my rights? The NRA brass are a bunch of nut cases but I have no choice but to support the one organization that will preserve the 2nd Amendment. You see what I mean? I'm hedging my bets. As for taking responsibility, I do my part to show family and friends what it means to own firearms. They are deadly weapons, tools that can kill or maim others when handled carelessly. I have a 12 year old who will never, ever, point a gun, toy or real at another person unless it is absolutely necessary. I don't think participating in sports and recreation that utilizes firearms makes me complicit in aiding and abetting gun violence, as I do not believe that consuming alcohol, which I wholeheartedly participate in, makes you somehow responsible for alcoholism and it's ills. Everyone has a personal choice.
Posted on: 2013/7/3 3:26
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Laws alone cannot solve all of our problems, and it?s true that criminals do not follow them, but without laws how could we identify somebody as a criminal in the first place? My layman?s understanding is that laws tend to reflect the boundaries of our societal values, and provide a framework for dealing with excursions beyond what we agree is permissible. Our laws are outlandishly flawed in many cases, but they serve a purpose. Presently, the gun laws that Americans face throughout most of the nation are highly permissive. We're an exception to the rule here. Effectively, our present gun laws demonstrate to the majority of Americans that guns aren?t especially worrisome. After all, most buyers don?t even need to obtain a license, undergo training, or show proficiency. Now, as far as being part of the problem... I like beer, wine, and Scotch. When I purchase booze, I effectively support a vast machine that encourages and profits from the use of ethyl alcohol as a mind-altering drug. Even if I am responsible with my own consumption, I cannot claim innocence for the ongoing public health problem of alcoholism. I don?t force anyone to drink, but I help foster conditions that allow alcoholics to easily feed their addiction. You like guns. When you purchase firearms and ammunition, you?re injecting money into a system that profits from the sale of weapons, countless numbers of which (say a million+ at this point) have been used in the commission of violent or deadly crimes. Manufacturers and vendors are aware of these uses, but like distillers, they have no duty to anything but profit. However harmless or righteous your own intentions, you still contribute to a system that helps saddle the entire country with a real problem. I'm sorry to single you out. You're probably a nice guy and it sounds like you you handle your firearms as safely as possible, but being nice only counts for so much. At some point, we have to accept some measure of responsibility for the world around us.
Posted on: 2013/7/2 20:56
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Yes, correct. I store my firearms safely, educate the rest of the household on proper use and training. They are only taken out of the biometric safe for training, competition or hunting. If everyone does this there will be very little chance of an accident. Quote:
There isn't anything I could say that you can't find in the Internet - crazy people and criminals will find a way. As for travelling in time - where'd you get that? Quote:
I am speaking only for myself and my rights, if other people want to be armed, that's their right. The solution to gun violence is not more laws, criminals do not follow them. Stupid and irresponsible people will find a way to hurt themselves and those around them. The only way to prevent gun violence is to confiscate every firearm in the planet, including those of the police and military. It's just not going to happen. Quote:
Martial Arts are great, but not against a gun. It's the equalizer, and if an armed intruder threatens my family, hopefully I won't have to shoot. And, trust me I'm not anxious at all. Quote:
He pulls a gun and points at this man's family and threatens to shoot. I say the store owner did the right thing in shooting him. And I say the criminal deserves it. Quote:
I believe in preserving my rights to legally own firearms and use them for sport and recreation. I would hope to never use them myself against another human being. And, I'm sick of anti-gun nuts in implicating all gun owners as somehow complicit in atrocities such as Sandy Hook.
Posted on: 2013/7/2 16:43
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Re: The futility of gun control
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You think you?re a ?responsible? gun owner? Why?because you haven?t shot anyone? Because you don?t commit felonies? Sorry, but there?s more to it than that, and you haven?t made much of a case for yourself. First, you publically espouse the virtues of gun ownership to a large, random audience of urban dwellers with varied backgrounds. You have no idea who?s reading what you post or how it may affect them. You have even expressed the desire to travel back in time and give somebody a gun so that they could shoot an attacker. Apparently, you really want other people to be armed, even to the point of fantasy. Meanwhile, I don't see you express much concern that our firearm-enabled public health and safety crisis takes as many American lives every two years as did the entire Vietnam War. How is that responsible, much less honest? If you?re so concerned about spreading the message of self-defense, why aren?t you preaching the importance of learning how to fight unarmed? It?s a more practical, useful, and accessible means of defense since you can bring your hands and feet everywhere, and they?re always ready. Or should we practice shooting our handguns at paper targets, read Massad Ayoob articles, sit around, play with ourselves, and wait for the perfect home invasion scenario so we can draw a gun on the intruder and finally be vindicated for all our years of preparation and anxiety? Second, you recently voiced satisfaction over the fatal shooting of a fleeing burglar as if it represented the most desirable outcome possible. Holy crap, man. To express such nonchalance about killing and death?of any person?you?re either full of baloney or you have the emotional maturity of a lost young male. Again, this is not a hallmark of responsibility, much the less the responsibility to wield a deadly weapon. I don?t know what you think you?re advocating, but as an evangelist of both gun possession and violent retribution, you cannot absolve yourself of our nation?s gun problem. You?re up to your neck in it, and you have a lot of company.
Posted on: 2013/7/2 14:11
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Does anyone else find it strange that the Obama ordered CDC report on gun violence is not being trumpeted by Biden and all the anti-gun nuts in the country?
Maybe it's because it really does prove that stricter firearms laws have not made any difference in gun violence? And that there is just as much evidence that gun owners have prevented violence because they own a firearm? And that the recent massacres, although they are extremely heinous and shocking, comprise a tiny percentage of all gun-related deaths? Well?
Posted on: 2013/7/2 13:51
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Wow!
I must of read the figures wrong - The US has the lowest gun related crime and deaths then any other nation because we are all allowed to bear arms ! We should issue every immigant a weapon on arrival to help keep the gun related crimes and deaths to an all time low. Silly me.
Posted on: 2013/7/2 5:16
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Spain... Spain... sounds familiar... Is it not the country that have suffered a dictatorship that lasted almost 40 years and ended less then 40 years ago?
Posted on: 2013/7/2 4:17
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Re: The futility of gun control
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....and then we can start the next boring and tiresome thread...."the futility of knife control," and then when you're done arguing about that we can introduce, "the futility of fork control." After you're done beating that dead horse we will introduce, "the futility of spoon control." After that we're going to discuss the ethics of just cutting peoples hands off at birth so they can't possibly pick up any random object to bash in someone's skull. This thread is lame and ridiculous, and I'm going to treat it as such.
Posted on: 2013/7/2 1:33
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Re: The futility of gun control
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I have a neighbor who daughter lives in Spain she come to JC to visit her mother twice a year. The last time she left, she told me she was glad to leave because the US is too dangerous a place to live. She was referring to the shootings in JC as well as the shootings in malls, churches, schools, and other places in the USA. The problem is the gun, without these weapons the US would be safer place.
Posted on: 2013/7/2 1:12
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Re: The futility of gun control
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if you want to make a simplistic argument, here is the NJ written test for a muzzle loading weapon: http://www.njfishandwildlife.com/pdf/hunted/rifleexam.pdf not very hard, no? anyone with half a brain can pass it an AR-15 with a 30 round magazine in my hands is still 100% safer than a muzzle loader in a criminal's hands. any questions?
Posted on: 2013/7/2 0:15
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Re: The futility of gun control
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These are the weapons that was used in 1776, it you did it wrong, you were minus fingers or it could blow up in your face. As I said before the founding fathers never heard of automatic weapons.
http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewi ... tle/the_weapons/load.html
Posted on: 2013/7/1 22:47
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Background criminal and mental health checks are fine, I've already gone through it, NJ has one of the tightest laws in the country. My problem is with those ignorant anti-gun people who know nothing of what they advocate. We responsible gun owners are not the problem.
Posted on: 2013/7/1 12:21
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Re: The futility of gun control
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 The quiet majority will eventually prevail. Criminal and mental health checks will be the norm for gun ownership - Society in general, regardless on what side of the fence you support doesn't want crim's and mental case nutters owning a weapon, so background checks are inevitable in an evolving progressive society. Even our defence forces throw-out nutters and crims from joining and handling weapons !
Posted on: 2013/7/1 2:20
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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The study shows that all of these gun laws have not made a difference in terms of safety of the general population. What most ignorant gun control advocates laws that steadily infringe on our rights. Today it's high cap mags, tomorrow it's any "black" gun. Then a couple of more massacres and then it's our handguns, after that it's our sporting firearms. One of the reasons I love this country is that we can legally own them.
Posted on: 2013/7/1 1:27
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Re: The futility of gun control
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fat-ass-bike wrote: Well, I came here from the Soviet Union, I was born in the country with a totalitarian regime, wanna hear my first-hand perspecitve? No? Quote: Yvonne wrote: You can find it here. Main causes are drowning (1150 a yeas), falls (187), fires (592), traffic-related (7317), Poisoning (606), Suffocation (956), all other injuries (1368). Doesn't say how many are firearms related, but you can assume that since it is not given its own line, it is less than "falls". I suggest that if one's goal is truly to save the children, I'd expect that person to be attacking private pools and cars first and foremost. Especially since pool's only value is for enterntainment, and a car is but a convinience, whereas a gun is necessary for something as important as a self-defense. Quote: Yvonne wrote: So? They thought that if we, the people, have the right to live, naturally, we have the right to defend that life. How is that related to the specific technology that is used? Do you really think that any Founding Fathers would have said, - "hey, I want people to be able to defend themselves from the criminals and oppressive government, but only if we are talking about muskets"? Or, for that matter, do you think that when they write the First Amendment, they had in mind only papers printed in ink and delivered by the tall ships? Would you claim "hey, they didn't know about Internet and phone, - so the government can regulate the speech over electrical wire!" Also, down there I mentioned Samuel Wittermore. Here is another link. What do you guys think of him? Gun nut, yeah?
Posted on: 2013/7/1 1:17
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Re: The futility of gun control
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artillery is not banned (on the Federal level). If you want to buy a tank and keep a working cannon on it, you must purchase a "Destructive Device Permit" from the Feds.
A tank in the U.S. can have operational guns, if the owner has a federal Destructive Device permit, and state laws don't prohibit it. The permit costs $200, and the applicant must swear he hasn't been a "fugitive from justice," "adjudicated mentally defective" or convicted of "a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence." A local law-enforcement official, usually a sheriff or police chief, has to sign off on the application. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001 ... 04578302480951570270.html
Posted on: 2013/7/1 0:51
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Ummm, Yvonne, you'd do your argument a service to not make statements you know nothing about. 3 rounds a minute from a musket was not remarkable in good infantry. Even cannon could manage under 2 minutes a round. It's funny how the 2nd amendment literalists generally don't have a problem with the private possession ban of fully auto and non-small arms, everything from machine guns to artillery. So the Absolute Right to Bear Arms is OK to be moderated after all. It reminds me of the old joke punchline "we know what you are madam, now we're just haggling about the price". The most likely explanation is the arms makers who are the NRA's masters don't see a profit in bazookas for home protection.
Posted on: 2013/7/1 0:27
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Re: The futility of gun control
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You are off the subject but AlexC but if we compared children who die from guns to any country in Europe, the US will be in the lead, hands down. The founding fathers had no concept of automatic weapons. It took over 20 minutes to load a gun in 1776.
Posted on: 2013/7/1 0:05
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Re: The futility of gun control
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or for that matter the number of children who die each year due to negligence of any kind. I bet that number is exponentially larger than gun related accidents. what does that have to do with responsible firearms owners?
Posted on: 2013/6/30 21:28
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What is missing from this report-the number of children who die each year because their parents were careless in securing the guns.
Posted on: 2013/6/30 21:24
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Re: The futility of gun control
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The Obama ordered CDC report on gun violence
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/56191 ?Defensive uses of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed. Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.? It was also discovered that when guns are used in self-defense the victims consistently have lower injury rates than those who are unarmed, even compared with those who used other forms of self-defense.
Posted on: 2013/6/30 21:11
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Re: The futility of gun control
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As a human race we evolve and America isn't the lucky country it once was with intellects from Europe coming over - We now have a far greater ratio of low level white collar and blue collar immigrants. It would be interesting to know how many intellects and scholars are migrating out of the US. I'd bet like the youtube video suggests, many have and many will. It wouldn't surprise me (as one reason) if its because many feel unsafe in a nation that has a gun culture and an inability to evolve from this amendment. I know many migrants who have every intention to make money here, then retire in a safer community back home in their birth country - just speak to many in Newport with a work visa.
Posted on: 2013/6/30 13:09
Edited by fat-ass-bike on 2013/6/30 13:35:29
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Well, no. The Constitution is not "another set of laws". All other laws are made by the Government and they limit us, the people, in what we can and can't do. The Constitution is an act by The People that creates and limits the Government. So, it is a wholly, entirely different legal document than all other laws. Second, if you want to give the Government more power, - you are welcome to try. There is a special procedure for making Amendments. It is not an easy process, but it is not a "bug", it is a feature. It is supposed to be difficult. Third, I would advise you to think long and hard before you decide that The Bill of Rights need be demolished. Like, here a thought to ponder upon, - why is America such a magnet to the people from other nations? Why was it always so, from the start, when it was not a major economic power, but a small former colony, no more rich than any other?
Posted on: 2013/6/30 12:09
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Years ago laws stated that you had to have a guy walk infront of a car with a red flag to alert individuals of this new form of transport.
The constitution is just another set of laws written many years ago that needs amending to reflect today's society and needs.
Posted on: 2013/6/29 3:32
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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History of Gun Control
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This topic is locked, but I think that the most offensive slander published there can't be left unanswered. Specifically, few people argued that the Second Amendment was designed by the slave owners to protect slavery. Their logic works like this, - if Hitler was a vegetarian, it means that vegeterianism is a brain-child of fascists. So, just like that, since some of the people who shared the view that the people have the right to defend themselves, were slave owners, we are told to deduce that gun rights must be evil. Now, the facts. The first attempt at guns confiscation happened in April 1775, which the colonists repelled. That was the famous "shot heard round the world" that started the active part of the American Revolution. (Among the horrible gun nuts who defended their rights against the gun-grabbing government troops, was one Samuel Whittemore who in 2005 was proclaimed "the official state hero of Massachusetts", I presume because being public schools graduates, they didn't know enough history to realize that he stood against most of the things they represent) Then there were few minor attempts in Kentucky and Arkansas, nothing major - just trying to limit the concealement. Then we had a major interesting case, the famous Dred Scott case, that ruled that African Americans are not citizens. The Chief Justice Roger Taney wrote for the majority, explaining the "horrors" of what would be if African Americans were citizens: "It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognized as citizens in any one State of the Union ... the full liberty ... to keep and carry arms wherever they went." And then there was the Civil War, when the Republican party, created on the abolitionists platform had to fight the Democrats in the South to abolish the slavery. Well, not just in the South. The Democrats in the north ran against Lincoln on the platform "he pulled us into a war under a false pretense, we must give up now". That was after the Civil War when the gun controls laws spread like fire over the Democrat-controlled South. The purpose was to disarm the freed slaves. Here is a longer list of all the original gun-control laws. The first American gun control organization was Ku Klux Klan.
Posted on: 2013/6/29 2:15
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fat-ass-bike wrote: Ah, yes. "Nervous disorder" and "mental" is, like, totally the same, right? Ok, let's imagine the worst. Let's imagine that it was "mental". Let's imagine that he is still afflicted. Let's imagine that his right to bear arms should be taken away according to his own argument. How does it make his argument invalid though? Consider a purely hypothetical case. Imagine some Senator M proclaims that bribery is wrong, and that sex with underage hookers is wrong. Now, imagine that someone says, - "Hey, look, we caught Senator M doing both of those things! So it means Senator M was wrong! Ergo, sex with underage hookers, and bribery are not bad things like he claimed!" Would you agree with this statement? Can you tell where the error in this kind of reasoning is? BTW, have you not noticed that Obama adopted almost everything that LaPierre suggested? Granted Obama proposed armed guards and mental screening with no attribution to where the idea came from, - but we all know who put those ideas out, no? Quote: fat-ass-bike wrote: This is why we have the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, - to protect the rights of minority from the majority trying to take them away. Quote: fat-ass-bike wrote: Good. We have abandoned the "nobody is trying to take away the rights..." nonsense. So, your position is that I should have no right to protect myself, and that I must prove to you that I am worthy of the privilege, - that you may or may not bestow on me. I disagree. My rights are not yours to give. And it is a "big ask", - since you are asking to abandon no less than the founding principles of this country, - something that was the reason why it was founded in the first place. I'd say it is the biggest ask imaginable.
Posted on: 2013/2/17 19:18
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If the logic by the NRA is that people kill - not guns, then why the outrage for mental health or aptitude checks for gun ownership .... nothing to do with rights !
 [size=large]OOPS ![/size] 
Posted on: 2013/2/17 7:50
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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2 pro gun supporters on JClist - Could it be you are the vocal minority?
Driving a car is a priviledge as should gun ownership be .... its not a big ask, as it weeds out those that have the mental aptitude and can drive and own a gun responsibly. I'm sure you wouldn't want a nutter behind the wheel or handling a weapon ..... which really has nothing to do with rights, but rather mental aptitude and training. 
Posted on: 2013/2/17 7:14
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Home away from home
Joined:
2006/9/14 18:57 Last Login : 2020/1/27 22:17 From Hamilton Park
Group:
Registered Users
Posts:
1053
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I will say this and leave this thread alone.
I am a progressive - I support LGBTQ rights, gay marriage, universal healthcare, the right to choose, opposed Bush and the "war on terror", voted for Obama twice, and 99% of Liberal programs. But I am also a gun owner, and believe in my rights. So when Sandy Hook happened, I was outraged, and when Wayne LaPierre made statements very late in the game that sounded (to me, at the time, totally unreal), I was ready for compromise on gun laws. Then all these people that know nothing about guns and the use of firearms in sporting/self defense start opening their mouths and spouting ignorance based on emotion really alienated me. At some point the NRA started to make sense as they are the only organization that will protect might right to own guns. So instead of my tearing my NRA card and terminating my membership, I became a life member and sent my $500 sponsored benefactor member. Thank you, all of you anti-gun people.
Posted on: 2013/2/17 6:21
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