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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Fair enough, Cleo. Well said.

I would suggest that the rules for pet ownership apply across the board, not based on housing situation or an assumption on a resident's ability to care for a pet. There are plenty of people across all walks of life who treat their pets properly and responsibly and, unfortunately, those who don't. There are enough threads on this site that prove that out.

To imply that anyone who advocates a less blatantly judgmental approach to an entire population of people as "self righteous" is, ironically, a bit self-righteous. To me at least. We each pick our own battles, I guess.

But your larger point on taking care of pets? I'm totally with you on that.

Posted on: 2009/5/8 21:45
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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This should not be an issue of "good" vs. "bad" dog breeds. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of public housing is to provide assistance to people with limited incomes. Since this assistance is government-subsidized (ie: with our tax money), is it unfair to expect that it be provided only to people who are truly in need?

As the owner of two 80-pound plus dogs, I spend over $150 dollars each month to feed them and close to $1000 each year on vaccinations and miscellaneous veterinary bills. A dog is a luxury, not a necessity and I can't help but question the ability of people who can't afford to support themselves and decide to get a pet to make responsible decisions.

While clearly there are exceptions, as previous posters have pointed out, the reality is that an overwhelming number of animals owned by people who live in projects are neglected, abused, or turned out into the street because their owners failed to assess the reality of their financial situations before getting the pet.

Two years ago I was approached in Hamilton park by a little girl from the 14th st housing projects with a dog on a leash, asking me if I wanted to take it. She said her mother bought it for her birthday and decided after a few weeks that the dog was too expensive and, as the girl put it, "a pain in the ass" (translation: it is a living creature with real needs and not a stuffed toy).

If a person on public assistance living in the projects wanted to adopt a child, they would face intense scrutiny to prove that they could assure the child a good home (if they were allowed to adopt at all which I doubt). For animals there is no such protection. An dog can fall into the hands of anyone and the quality of the animal's life is solely determined by the owner they end up with, whether they be animal lover, a criminal, a drug addict, rage-a-holic, etc.

I for one am fed up with the self-righteous attitude of "who are we to judge people from the projects" because it has nothing to do with being judgemental and all about offering more legal protection to animals. People who do not have the money to support themselves are not likely to devote the time and money to caring for a pet.

There are laws regulating nearly every aspect of human existence with the caveat that such laws are "for our own protection" and yet there is no requirement for someone considering a dog to prove that they have the ability to care for it. This would be too much to ask, I know, because it would wipe out the multi-billion-dollar-a-year factory breeding businesses that provide dogs in bulk quantities to pet stores who sell them to anyone off the street, no questions asked.

Posted on: 2009/5/8 13:37
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Quote:

JerseyCityNj wrote:
...Most times when a dog attacks it is the owner or the victims fault...


Wow

Posted on: 2009/5/7 21:43
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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pleeeeeeeease, JC list, I am begging you. let's not start this again. if you want to read the argument you're itching to make regarding menacing breeds - are they or arent they? - please refer back to one of the dozen Pit Bull threads already in progress.

here's the thing: The Government is essentially the landlord of public housing. A landlord can ban pets, whatever type, for whatever reason.

this is a landlord's decision. It is not a case for PETA or the ACLU.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 17:51
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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saabconv wrote:
The fact is that when (if) a pit bull bites, its going to be a lot worse than when a yorkie bites (although they do draw blood). Point is no matter how sweet pit bulls/chows/whatever is on this list are - they still have a bad rap. And everyone who says its the owners fault is correct - it is, but in this country we don't do sh*t about it, and put the dogs to sleep. Off my soapbox now....

Put all those breeds to sleep or just the ones that attack? If you are talking about putting dogs that have attacked to sleep, it happens all the time just not when it is the victims fault.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 16:18
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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The fact is that when (if) a pit bull bites, its going to be a lot worse than when a yorkie bites (although they do draw blood). Point is no matter how sweet pit bulls/chows/whatever is on this list are - they still have a bad rap. And everyone who says its the owners fault is correct - it is, but in this country we don't do sh*t about it, and put the dogs to sleep. Off my soapbox now....

Posted on: 2009/5/7 16:07
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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cheese7 wrote:
Just as it is ignorant to stereotype people, I find it quite ignorant when people stereotype dogs. If you want to site dog stats, why don't we look at crime stats and start imprisoning certain groups of people? It's a slippery slope.

I have two pit mixes who I love dearly. They are great with other dogs, people and children. As a child I was attacked by a Chow Chow and had a pretty serious injury- which makes me sensitive to both sides of the issue. I don't think the answer is banning specific breeds, though.

People need to be responsible for their actions and therefore, their pet's actions. That's the bottom line.

I don't think any specific breed should be banned either. I was just pointing out how people label Pits when other dogs have a bad rep and get over looked because they don't scare people as much or get targeted by the media. I personally love Pits, and some day in the future plan on getting a Blue Pit. I do agree with the weight limit though, just not when specific breeds are targeted. I have seen a few miniature Pits that fall under the weight limit with more breeding in the future I could see them becoming popular.

Most times when a dog attacks it is the owner or the victims fault. There are accidents but I would think they make up a small percentage of those cases.

The statistics I know are flawed since many "Pit Bull" attacks aren't even done by Pit Bulls but are labeled as Pits because the person writing the report is going off the dogs appearance. Besides Pits and Rottweiler are popular in most the areas fatal attacks occur, such as highly populated areas and cities. They are also the most common guard dogs. I'm sure if German Shepards our another strong breed was as popular as the Pits are in cities they would top the list.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 15:59
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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thanks, chester- from one moron to another :)

Posted on: 2009/5/7 15:56
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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cheese7 wrote:
Just as it is ignorant to stereotype people, I find it quite ignorant when people stereotype dogs. If you want to site dog stats, why don't we look at crime stats and start imprisoning certain groups of people? It's a slippery slope.

I have two pit mixes who I love dearly. They are great with other dogs, people and children. As a child I was attacked by a Chow Chow and had a pretty serious injury- which makes me sensitive to both sides of the issue. I don't think the answer is banning specific breeds, though.

People need to be responsible for their actions and therefore, their pet's actions. That's the bottom line.


It is interesting that you compare the rights of humans with the rights of dogs. Actually, it's more moronic than interesting, but I'm being nice.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 15:48
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Just as it is ignorant to stereotype people, I find it quite ignorant when people stereotype dogs. If you want to site dog stats, why don't we look at crime stats and start imprisoning certain groups of people? It's a slippery slope.

I have two pit mixes who I love dearly. They are great with other dogs, people and children. As a child I was attacked by a Chow Chow and had a pretty serious injury- which makes me sensitive to both sides of the issue. I don't think the answer is banning specific breeds, though.

People need to be responsible for their actions and therefore, their pet's actions. That's the bottom line.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 15:34
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Ha.... you are so very right... I have a Chow/Chow Lab mix and she is VIOLENT and down right nasty.... I socialized her from day one but it never helped, she had been programmed with that nasty chow trait... and needs a muzzle when we go outside. Her family is her life... and she loves people she is in constant contact with but anyone else... she just doesnt care, people are terrified of her and she only weighs about 45lbs... her bark sounds like Cujo... So yes, chows are nasty.... but then again there are some nice ones....

Posted on: 2009/5/7 14:45
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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When I was a kid the dog I remember being responsible for the most attacks were Chow Chows. I remember many cases where kids were badly hurt by these dogs yet you never heard any reports in the local paper. I clearly remember a Chow Chow attack the day before a Pit attack and even though the same amount of damage was done the Pit Bull attack made the paper while the other didn't. Chow Chows are nasty dogs if your not the owner, that is why they attack kids so often. The kid sees a dog that looks like a big teddy bear and thinks he can pet it.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 14:36
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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"Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....[T]he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." (Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. JAVMA 2000;217:836-840.)

Posted on: 2009/5/7 14:12
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Quote:

Greenvillechick wrote:
It should not be the basis for a ban. In all actuality some dog parks have strict rules about letting other dogs come in and must go through a tempermant test... why not impliment that for apartment buildings as well?


That's what I was driving at. If "my" theory above is the basis for the ban, it makes many assumptions about the basis for the risk, and that risk can be avoided through "less restrictive means."

Posted on: 2009/5/7 12:04
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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It should not be the basis for a ban. In all actuality some dog parks have strict rules about letting other dogs come in and must go through a tempermant test... why not impliment that for apartment buildings as well?

Posted on: 2009/5/7 10:51
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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I'm sure I'm going to be called racist for this - but the majority of pit bull owners in HOUSING PROJECTS - use the dogs to terrorize other people; hence the ban. I have a big dog that doesn't fall under the category of "banned dogs," and he's a mush. Its the little ankle biters that are more dangerous. Those stupid yorkies with the bows in their hair - horrible....

Posted on: 2009/5/7 10:01
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Pit bulls aren't large. And they're not "menacing" as a breed, though there is that 'spark' that was bred into them, and which bad human behavior can bring forth. Also, as terriers they can be snippy and territorial. This often true of ratters, and a dachsund is more a terrier than a hound.

It doesn't seem like anyone is suggesting that the conditions of housing projects encourage such ferocity (density, verticality, noise), or that the residents in housing projects do (fixed incomes, poverty, people of color primarily).

However, we've seen things anecdotally and our beliefs are reinforced by the media: certain communities are "afraid" of dogs because dogs do not present only companionship, but represent authority (cops), protection ("junk yard dogs"), and thug status or toughness (the rott/ pits on chains). Etc.

Assuming what I've written is a legitimate theory - which it may not be - does it justify banning pit bulls and other large dogs? Is it the basis for the ban?

Posted on: 2009/5/7 9:17
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Some people just love to hate!

While I'm not saying I think everyone who lives in the projects are immoral, poverty ridden people, the projects are not typically known for being nice, safe places to live. I can't say that limiting the types of pets owned in them is a bad thing. I think it would be smarter to just put a size limit rather than single out "dangerous breeds" which is just ridiculous.

I have two pit bulls and two Dachshunds....care to guess who bites? (Hint - not the pit bulls).

Posted on: 2009/5/7 8:58
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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GnomeGeneral wrote:
If you live in a housing project, you shouldn't be able to have a pet at all. Not for the sake of the residents, but the well-being of the animal. If an owner is too broke to provide for themselves, other creatures shouldn't have to suffer.


What a huge blanket statement to make. Have you ever known anyone who lived in an NYC housing project? I have several friends who were born and raised in a certain project in west Chelsea and I promise you they live better than a lot of people I know. With their pits, who are luckily grandfathered in.


nyc projects are sort of an exception, in that they are very good living conditions. Better than a lot of the normal apts in the city.

But in general. projects are slum, the ones in jersey seems bad but they will look like a palace when you compare them to the ones in philly and washington.

Everytime i have foreign friends who visit me and say how americans live like the king in their mansions, i just drive them by the south philly projects to show the flip side. That shut them up quick.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 1:15
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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here we go...

Posted on: 2009/5/2 7:55
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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jennymayla wrote:
Quote:

GnomeGeneral wrote:
If you live in a housing project, you shouldn't be able to have a pet at all. Not for the sake of the residents, but the well-being of the animal. If an owner is too broke to provide for themselves, other creatures shouldn't have to suffer.


What a huge blanket statement to make. Have you ever known anyone who lived in an NYC housing project? I have several friends who were born and raised in a certain project in west Chelsea and I promise you they live better than a lot of people I know. With their pits, who are luckily grandfathered in.


So its cool when people who live in projects are milking the system, since you suggest they live better then most? Not that this is any news to me. I lived in Ivy Hill, Newark as a kid so I've seen plenty of people driving around in beamers and paying for food with welfare checks. (When the tables turn and the system takes advantage of the poor you'll be the first one to cry about it I'm sure.) Housing projects were designed to get people on their feet, they aren't meant to be permanent living. Having a pet is a luxury for the responsible, working class people. Pay Liberty Humane Society a visit, perhaps walk one of the many pits while you're at it. Somehow I doubt they ended up being abandoned or abused by people from the brownstones downtown.

Posted on: 2009/5/2 0:49
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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GnomeGeneral wrote:
If you live in a housing project, you shouldn't be able to have a pet at all. Not for the sake of the residents, but the well-being of the animal. If an owner is too broke to provide for themselves, other creatures shouldn't have to suffer.


What a huge blanket statement to make. Have you ever known anyone who lived in an NYC housing project? I have several friends who were born and raised in a certain project in west Chelsea and I promise you they live better than a lot of people I know. With their pits, who are luckily grandfathered in.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 22:21
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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that list makes me think the housing authority did its "research" on wikipedia. pathetic.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 13:10
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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ROFLMAO

Posted on: 2009/5/1 13:05
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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a Boston Terrier ate my baby.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 12:51
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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I remember a couple of years ago, Peter Vallone passed a ban on ferrets as pets for anyone in NYC, because he was personally freaked out by them. I think it eventually got reversed.

Newark Public Housing also bans the so-called bully breeds.

But Boston Terriers?? Huh??

Posted on: 2009/5/1 12:40
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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I too am happy to see that current dogs are grandfathered in.

A ban on all dogs was instituted in Hong Kong public housing in 1998, no exceptions, no grandfathering.

With over 50% of HK housing being government-owned, the result was countless animals turned out on the street, and packs of purebreds roaming the parks.

I lived there at the time, and every expat I knew ended up adopting a stray dog that year. It's how I got mine, and while I adored that dog like crazy, I really wish the government had used common sense and let current dogs stay. the sight on the streets was absolutely heartbreaking.

So, kudos to NYC.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 11:03
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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LOL at Boston Terriers being banned. Talk about a harmless animal.

I don't have a problem with the policy provided previously approved pets are grandfathered in.

GrovePath totally popped wood when he saw this story lol.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 9:27
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Before renting to people with dogs - a landlord would do well to read this list and talk to their insurance company!

I am sure that the NYC Housing Authority is doing in reaction to law suits against them for allowing Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds!

To quote from their site:
Because of an increase in biting incidents, beginning May 1st, NYC Housing Authority will be implementing a revised Pet Policy to better ensure that grounds and buildings provide a safe environment for residents, visitors and guests.

These irresponsible dog owners will realize their own enforcement when the insurance companies get involved. The insurance companies are the new mommies & daddies pointing the finger towards righteousness. Similar to the common cold and the weather that there is no one to complain to, just grin, bear it, and get a leash. Finally a resolve of the liberal and PC police out there.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 9:17
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Re: Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds banned from NYC public housing.
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Before renting to people with dogs - a landlord would do well to read this list and talk to their insurance company!

I am sure that the NYC Housing Authority is doing in reaction to law suits against them for allowing Pit Bulls and other large menacing breeds!

To quote from their site:
Because of an increase in biting incidents, beginning May 1st, NYC Housing Authority will be implementing a revised Pet Policy to better ensure that grounds and buildings provide a safe environment for residents, visitors and guests.

List of prohibited breeds:

Akita Inu
Alangu Mastiff
Alano Espan
American Pit Bull Terrier
American Staffordshire Terrier
Argentine Dogo
Bedington Terrier
Boston Terrier
Bull and Terrier
Bull Terrier
Bully Kutta
Cane Corso
Dogue de Bordeaux
Dogo Sardesco
English Mastiff
Fila Brasileiro
Gull Dong
Gull Terr
Irish Staffordshire Bull
Korea Jindo Dog
Lottatore Brindisino
Neapolitan Mastiff
Perro de Presa Canario
(Canary dog)
Perro de Presa Mallorquin
(Ca de Bou)
Shar Pei
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Tosa Inu


Weight Limit:
Dogs with projected full-grown adult
weight that exceeds 25 pounds are not
permitted. The previous weight limit
was 40 pounds.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 8:26
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