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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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This is what should happen when a thug tries to rob a store in JC:


Posted on: 2009/1/29 23:10
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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Quote:

MYBEAT wrote:
Quote:

Suze wrote:
Quote:

Adonis wrote:
Quote:

Suze wrote:
Perhaps if the person who committed this crime had access to good schools, a stable community, a stable home life, and opportunities to do things like go to college, this wouldn't have happened.


What country are you living in??? I know in this country everybody has access to good schools, a stable community and opportunities to do things like go to college.

It's the choices people make regarding that access that separates decent people from the murdering pieces of sh..

And no matter how bad things get in life for anybody it's still requires a conscious decision to pull a trigger on a gun. Society doesn't force your hand on that.


No, society does not force you to pull a trigger on a gun and commit a violent act. However, the environment in which you are raised contributes greatly to whether or not you end up doing it.

Furthermore, you're incorrect in your statement that everyone has the same access to good schools. Inner city schools are terrible. They're over-crowded, short on supplies, and children do not get the attention they need to prepare them for the rest of their lives.

If you think we're all equal in this country then you're ignorant. I hope it's not willingly so.


Ah, try it all starts at home and lets stop dumping on the schools and expect the teachers to act as the defacto parent/s !

If your raised in a shit enviroment(home) and by animals, than you'll turn out to be an animal, its basic 101.

Problem is that very few politicians are willing to address that issue cause it may hurt some feelings,well I'd rather have my feelings hurt than be preyed upon by some Animal who can't make a conscience decision between right & wrong !

This can be debated till kingdom come and fact remains the system Sucks and ain't noone going to do a damm thing to change it !


Thank you MYBEAT..
lets hope the person who is blaming it on teachers IS NOT A PARENT

Tolerance, understanding, humanity, love, hard work, etc.... is taught at home. That is a parents' responsibilty.

A teacher can enforce that and give the child an opportunity to show those characteristics. But if when they go home, it's not a priority..it will never happen...

However, this horrific murder should not be blamed on teachers or students. I read that article.... What loving memoirs the students from McNair left.....lets not blame other people...
Lets find the person who did this...and work on improving our society. This way things like this may not happen again.


If only all people

Posted on: 2009/1/29 23:17
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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Jeebus wrote:
As you pointed out, NJ makes using a firearm to defend oneself nearly impossible. That contributes to the problem given that criminals know their potential victims are likely to be unarmed. Yet the irrational among us assume that more gun prohibition laws will magically stop the criminals that are already armed from taking advantage of the law abiding citizens (and that further disarming the law abiding will help).


You conveniently ignore the fact that almost every developed nation has what you would consider draconian gun laws, with the consequence being gun murders are a rarity there and a national sport here. Our liberal gun laws make us a freak show. How can you possibly believe MORE guns will improve these numbers?!! Colombia's is at 50 deaths per 100k. Do you think they're problem is they don't have enough guns?


Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
-----------------------------Homicide-----Suicide ----Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001)--------------3.98--------5.92 --------0.36
Italy (1997)--------------0.81--------1.1----------0.07
Switzerland (1998)-----0.50--------5.8----------0.10
Canada (2002)----------0.4 --------2.0 ----------0.04
Finland (2003)-----------0.35--------4.45--------0.10
Australia (2001)---------0.24--------1.34 -------0.10
France (2001)------------0.21--------3.4 --------0.49
England/Wales (2002) 0.15--------0.2----------0.03
Scotland (2002)---------0.06--------0.2----------0.02
Japan (2002)------------0.02--------0.04 --------0

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

Posted on: 2009/1/29 23:18
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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Quote:

NolieOlie wrote:
Quote:

MYBEAT wrote:
Quote:

Suze wrote:
Quote:

Adonis wrote:
Quote:

Suze wrote:
Perhaps if the person who committed this crime had access to good schools, a stable community, a stable home life, and opportunities to do things like go to college, this wouldn't have happened.


What country are you living in??? I know in this country everybody has access to good schools, a stable community and opportunities to do things like go to college.

It's the choices people make regarding that access that separates decent people from the murdering pieces of sh..

And no matter how bad things get in life for anybody it's still requires a conscious decision to pull a trigger on a gun. Society doesn't force your hand on that.


No, society does not force you to pull a trigger on a gun and commit a violent act. However, the environment in which you are raised contributes greatly to whether or not you end up doing it.

Furthermore, you're incorrect in your statement that everyone has the same access to good schools. Inner city schools are terrible. They're over-crowded, short on supplies, and children do not get the attention they need to prepare them for the rest of their lives.

If you think we're all equal in this country then you're ignorant. I hope it's not willingly so.


Ah, try it all starts at home and lets stop dumping on the schools and expect the teachers to act as the defacto parent/s !

If your raised in a shit enviroment(home) and by animals, than you'll turn out to be an animal, its basic 101.

Problem is that very few politicians are willing to address that issue cause it may hurt some feelings,well I'd rather have my feelings hurt than be preyed upon by some Animal who can't make a conscience decision between right & wrong !

This can be debated till kingdom come and fact remains the system Sucks and ain't noone going to do a damm thing to change it !


Thank you MYBEAT..
lets hope the person who is blaming it on teachers IS NOT A PARENT

Tolerance, understanding, humanity, love, hard work, etc.... is taught at home. That is a parents' responsibilty.

A teacher can enforce that and give the child an opportunity to show those characteristics. But if when they go home, it's not a priority..it will never happen...

However, this horrific murder should not be blamed on teachers or students. I read that article.... What loving memoirs the students from McNair left.....lets not blame other people...
Lets find the person who did this...and work on improving our society. This way things like this may not happen again.


If only all people



NolieOlie's post: +100000

Posted on: 2009/1/29 23:31
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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r_pinkowitz wrote:
Quote:

NolieOlie wrote:
Quote:

MYBEAT wrote:
Quote:

Suze wrote:
Quote:

Adonis wrote:
Quote:

Suze wrote:
Perhaps if the person who committed this crime had access to good schools, a stable community, a stable home life, and opportunities to do things like go to college, this wouldn't have happened.


What country are you living in??? I know in this country everybody has access to good schools, a stable community and opportunities to do things like go to college.

It's the choices people make regarding that access that separates decent people from the murdering pieces of sh..

And no matter how bad things get in life for anybody it's still requires a conscious decision to pull a trigger on a gun. Society doesn't force your hand on that.


No, society does not force you to pull a trigger on a gun and commit a violent act. However, the environment in which you are raised contributes greatly to whether or not you end up doing it.

Furthermore, you're incorrect in your statement that everyone has the same access to good schools. Inner city schools are terrible. They're over-crowded, short on supplies, and children do not get the attention they need to prepare them for the rest of their lives.

If you think we're all equal in this country then you're ignorant. I hope it's not willingly so.


Ah, try it all starts at home and lets stop dumping on the schools and expect the teachers to act as the defacto parent/s !

If your raised in a shit enviroment(home) and by animals, than you'll turn out to be an animal, its basic 101.

Problem is that very few politicians are willing to address that issue cause it may hurt some feelings,well I'd rather have my feelings hurt than be preyed upon by some Animal who can't make a conscience decision between right & wrong !

This can be debated till kingdom come and fact remains the system Sucks and ain't noone going to do a damm thing to change it !


Thank you MYBEAT..
lets hope the person who is blaming it on teachers IS NOT A PARENT

Tolerance, understanding, humanity, love, hard work, etc.... is taught at home. That is a parents' responsibilty.

A teacher can enforce that and give the child an opportunity to show those characteristics. But if when they go home, it's not a priority..it will never happen...

However, this horrific murder should not be blamed on teachers or students. I read that article.... What loving memoirs the students from McNair left.....lets not blame other people...
Lets find the person who did this...and work on improving our society. This way things like this may not happen again.


If only all people



NolieOlie's post: +100000

Thank you RPink...
Let's spread the message.
Hate and argument will get us nowhere
I am glad you agreed with my opinion.
I am ready to take a stand!

Posted on: 2009/1/30 0:05
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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brewster wrote:
You conveniently ignore the fact that almost every developed nation has what you would consider draconian gun laws, with the consequence being gun murders are a rarity there and a national sport here. Our liberal gun laws make us a freak show. How can you possibly believe MORE guns will improve these numbers?!! Colombia's is at 50 deaths per 100k. Do you think they're problem is they don't have enough guns?


Colombia has had a civil war & a drug war for several decades BTW. I support smart gun control IN OTHER STATES WHICH ARE TO BLAME FOR MOST ILLEGAL GUNS, but until those other states start regulating gun sales this state should not let it's people be defenseless against all the thugs who are almost always packing heat. But if guns were to be outright banned in the US crime would not go down. Instead it would probably go up as thugs would still get guns through the black market, and they would have a field day as people would be defenseless against them.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 0:18
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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brewster wrote:
[You conveniently ignore the fact that almost every developed nation has what you would consider draconian gun laws, with the consequence being gun murders are a rarity there and a national sport here. Our liberal gun laws make us a freak show. How can you possibly believe MORE guns will improve these numbers?!! Colombia's is at 50 deaths per 100k. Do you think they're problem is they don't have enough guns?


Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
-----------------------------Homicide-----Suicide ----Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001)--------------3.98--------5.92 --------0.36
Italy (1997)--------------0.81--------1.1----------0.07
Switzerland (1998)-----0.50--------5.8----------0.10
Canada (2002)----------0.4 --------2.0 ----------0.04
Finland (2003)-----------0.35--------4.45--------0.10
Australia (2001)---------0.24--------1.34 -------0.10
France (2001)------------0.21--------3.4 --------0.49
England/Wales (2002) 0.15--------0.2----------0.03
Scotland (2002)---------0.06--------0.2----------0.02
Japan (2002)------------0.02--------0.04 --------0

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.


From a demographic point of view, the US doesn't look like any of those countries. Most importantly, those countries are not ethnically diverse like ours. I think a better comparison would be with Brazil - a large, ethnically diverse country. Do you have those numbers?

Posted on: 2009/1/30 10:17
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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NolieOlie wrote:
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Thank you MYBEAT..
lets hope the person who is blaming it on teachers IS NOT A PARENT

Tolerance, understanding, humanity, love, hard work, etc.... is taught at home. That is a parents' responsibilty.

A teacher can enforce that and give the child an opportunity to show those characteristics. But if when they go home, it's not a priority..it will never happen...

However, this horrific murder should not be blamed on teachers or students. I read that article.... What loving memoirs the students from McNair left.....lets not blame other people...
Lets find the person who did this...and work on improving our society. This way things like this may not happen again.


If only all people


Sigh.

I'm NOT blaming the teachers.

Please read my original post.

I suggest that part of the solution to violent crime lies not in arming citizens to the teeth. It instead lies in making a good education more accessible to all.

My reasoning is that perhaps if this was done, perhaps if the money spent housing non-violent offenders in jail, pumping money into a crazy war, continuing the War on Drugs, etc. was instead spent on our school systems, children would grow up knowing they can get out of the crummy situations in which they find themselves. They would know there is more out there for them than becoming drug dealers to make money or becoming mothers in their teens.

It's part of what needs to be done albeit a pretty big part. I understand this all starts at home but since we cannot reach into every home across the United States and force parents to give a shit about their kids, fostering an environment in the school systems that encourages children to reach higher goals is a start.

I have nothing but admiration for teachers who choose to teach in inner city schools. A very close friend of mine did it for several years. I know the challenges they face when it comes to having parents care. I also know that her goal, to reach these kids and give them a good start in life, could have been made much easier if she had been given the resources she desperately needed.

Okay?

Don't put words in my mouth.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 11:45
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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7PM Tonight 1.30.2009 Hamilton Park Gazebo

Reminder: Vigil tonight to honor slain Downtown Jersey City deli owner
by The Jersey Journal
Friday January 30, 2009, 11:19 AM

Residents of Downtown Jersey City's Hamilton Park neighborhood and students and staff of McNair Academic High School are planning a vigil for 7 tonight to honor Kiritkumar Parikh, the 57-year-old shopkeeper who was shot and killed during a robbery on Tuesday.

Mourners have left flowers and candles in front of the Coles Street deli where Parikh, who lived on Van Winkle Avenue in Jersey City, died.

The store is kitty-corner from the high school.

"Thank you for your many years of kind service to our community," a note from McNair students reads. "Although no words can really help ease the loss you bear, just know that you are very close in every thought and prayer."

The Hamilton Park Neighborhood Association has organized the vigil to be held at the gazebo in Hamilton Park.

Local officials have been asked to speak, the association said.

Any neighbors or friends who wish to speak can also say a few words, the HPNA said in a news release.

Information about donations to Parikh's family will be available.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... tonight_to_hono.html#more

Posted on: 2009/1/30 12:24
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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The program for tonight's vigil (click image for larger version):

Resized Image

Posted on: 2009/1/30 12:32
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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From a demographic point of view, the US doesn't look like any of those countries. Most importantly, those countries are not ethnically diverse like ours. I think a better comparison would be with Brazil - a large, ethnically diverse country. Do you have those numbers?


Here's more numbers, http://www.gun-control-network.org/Gun%20homicide%20rates.jpg but your point is nonsense, as is Greeneville's. We may be diverse, but we are one of the wealthiest and developed nations on earth. All the rest of the nations of our class restrict weapons, and the black markets DO NOT supply any thug who wants one. Britain has some gun crime, but 1/ 40 the gun death rate. Does that sound like criminals gone wild? Canada has diversity and 3k mile border with us, and has less than 1/5 our gun deaths. I repeat, in the developed world, we are a freakshow.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 12:46
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Not to pile onto the ghoulish politicization goin on in this thread, but exactly what is the correlation between "diversity" and guns, stani?

Posted on: 2009/1/30 13:06
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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The correlation is not between diversity and guns, but between diversity and gun deaths, which is what the chart is showing. Our "diverse" communities have much higher incidences of gun deaths than our non-diverse ones. If I recall correctly in some "diverse" communities, gun deaths were one of the highest causes of mortality. Also, if you look at the gun death incidence amongst "non-diverse" people in the US, you'll find that our numbers are not that much different from those in Europe.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 13:19
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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Diversity and gun deaths. Anyone remember a town called Littleton Colorado?

Posted on: 2009/1/30 13:25
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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Netflix Bowling for Columbine. European countries are quite diverse, at least the ones I've visited have been.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 13:37
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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Maybe it has to do with our poverty rate? How are our poverty levels compared to other industrialized nations?

Posted on: 2009/1/30 13:54
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VanVorster wrote:
Netflix Bowling for Columbine. European countries are quite diverse, at least the ones I've visited have been.


Right on, we live in one of the most violent nations on the face of this earth!

Posted on: 2009/1/30 14:05
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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Maybe it has to do with our poverty rate? How are our poverty levels compared to other industrialized nations?


Poverty is a cop out, most if not all poor people don't go around blowing people away with illegal guns !

Are you saying "Blame the Poor" ??

Posted on: 2009/1/30 14:06
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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VanVorster wrote:
Netflix Bowling for Columbine. European countries are quite diverse, at least the ones I've visited have been.


Europe is diverse, but not the same way as here. The Guardian (of London) estimates that Europe is 5% non-white. Here we're more like 30%.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 14:12
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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stani wrote:
The correlation is not between diversity and guns, but between diversity and gun deaths, which is what the chart is showing. Our "diverse" communities have much higher incidences of gun deaths than our non-diverse ones. If I recall correctly in some "diverse" communities, gun deaths were one of the highest causes of mortality. Also, if you look at the gun death incidence amongst "non-diverse" people in the US, you'll find that our numbers are not that much different from those in Europe.


Not quite.

According to http://www.bradycampaign.org/issues/gvstats/africanamerican/ African-Americans, though with twice the national average gun death rate, account for only 1/4 of gun deaths, leaving a rate of ~3 per 100k, still way higher than any other developed nation.

Also, the states with the highest firearm death rates in 2005 were Louisiana, Alaska, Montana, Tennessee, and Alabama. The second 2 are among the LEAST "diverse" states in the union, but probably among the highest in gun ownership. Sure made them safe, no?

Posted on: 2009/1/30 14:15
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It would be nice if there were numbers put out by organizations which aren't biased one way or the other.

Regarding England, their violent crime rate has always been less than ours (even before they enacted heavy gun control in the late 90's). Moreover, they have scene seen a marked increase in gun crime and now youth knife crime.

The other two problems with "limiting firearms" is a recent Supreme Court Decisions clearly allowing people to buy and posses firearms and, more importantly, the problem of what to do with the 90 firearms per 100 people.

The problem of gun crimes is rooted, sadly in certain socio economic groups (when one removed the 1/2 of gun death attributable to suicide, which shouldn't be counted as violent crime). The violent policy center released a study the other day which said PA has the highest rate of black on black murder, when Phily was removed from the data, the rest of the state (heavily rur al with plenty of hunters) was one of the least violent in the nation.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 14:29
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I think socio-economics does have a factor in this. Seems to me at least in the NYC metro area most crime rates are higher in poor communities for whatever the reason. I would guess the crime rate in East NY is somewhat different then that in Park Slope.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 14:44
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brewster wrote:

According to http://www.bradycampaign.org/issues/gvstats/africanamerican/ African-Americans, though with twice the national average gun death rate, account for only 1/4 of gun deaths, leaving a rate of ~3 per 100k, still way higher than any other developed nation.


As I was thinking about these numbers, I included the gun death incidence for all minorities, not just African-American. Hispanics also have a higher than average gun death incidence. Even so, you're right that the adjusted incidence is higher than that of Western Europe, althought not by the order of magnitude shown by the un-adjusted chart.

I'm not trying to discuss race here. This part of the thread dealt with legal gun ownership and I thought the chart presented a simplistic (though often repeated) argument. We also have a higher proportion of lawyers here (5% of the population and 70% of the world's lawyers), and maybe that has something to do with it at as well.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 15:10
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Have the authorities released any further information on the perp that commited this murder ?

You would think that they would involve the community and put out some sort of composite of this lowlife just in case he's spotted, but then again why would they do anything that involves common sense?

Posted on: 2009/1/30 15:31
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xplanted wrote:The violent policy center released a study the other day which said PA has the highest rate of black on black murder, when Phily was removed from the data, the rest of the state (heavily rur al with plenty of hunters) was one of the least violent in the nation.


That seems at odds with the finding of Montana & Alaska at the top of the charts. They're demographically similar to middle PA.

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stani wrote:
We also have a higher proportion of lawyers here (5% of the population and 70% of the world's lawyers), and maybe that has something to do with it at as well.


You would think that with this many guns around we'd have a few less lawyers!

Seriously, while the glut of lawyers has obvious downsides, nations with very small numbers of lawyers usually have government and business trampling all over citizens. I wish I knew the answer.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 16:30
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stani wrote:
The correlation is not between diversity and guns, but between diversity and gun deaths, which is what the chart is showing. Our "diverse" communities have much higher incidences of gun deaths than our non-diverse ones. If I recall correctly in some "diverse" communities, gun deaths were one of the highest causes of mortality. Also, if you look at the gun death incidence amongst "non-diverse" people in the US, you'll find that our numbers are not that much different from those in Europe.


I think you are using "diversity" as a polite way of saying "class/race differences."

Posted on: 2009/1/30 22:52
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It sickens me how many people here seem jump to the defense of minorities the minute somebody intoduces the notion that "non-diverse" communites might have better aspects than "diverse" communites. It's as if the very second anybody dare insults the minority communites you are a rascist or (worse) an un-intellectual conservative neanderthal.

Bottom line is I don't need an astonomer to tell me that the sun rises in the east and I don't need some possibly scewed statistics to tell me in which communites I'm most likely to get shot in and what type of person is going to likely be the shooter.

Posted on: 2009/1/31 9:54
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


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Quote:

Adonis wrote:
It sickens me how many people here seem jump to the defense of minorities the minute somebody intoduces the notion that "non-diverse" communites might have better aspects than "diverse" communites. It's as if the very second anybody dare insults the minority communites you are a rascist or (worse) an un-intellectual conservative neanderthal.

Bottom line is I don't need an astonomer to tell me that the sun rises in the east and I don't need some possibly scewed statistics to tell me in which communites I'm most likely to get shot in and what type of person is going to likely be the shooter.


Exactly. ROFL.

Posted on: 2009/1/31 11:12
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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The vigil last night was obviously very appropriate, tastetful, and well covered with news broadcasts.

Certainly, parking in the immediate area was at more than its usual premium on account of the attendees, and I was wondering if anyone else noticed the JCPA buggies (two or three of them) swarming the area at the time.

You'd think a few red zone parkers (vigil attendees) could get some brief slack, given the ocassion. Nothing like JCPA buggies circling the park to bring dignity to such a solemn event.

As always, this city is a class act.

Posted on: 2009/1/31 13:20
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Re: Downtown: One dead in shooting on Coles Street in Jersey City this morning
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Our country glorifies gun crime..from the toys for toddlers to video games for teenagers to high body counts on television and movies gun violence is portrayed as a part of everyday life. Michael Moore\'s documentary BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE revealed that Canada even with higher unemployment and higher gun ownership
than the United States , the murder rate is approx 1/10 of it\'s neighbour to the south.
Gun violence is embedded in the fabric of our society. This has got to change.

Posted on: 2009/1/31 13:29
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