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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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Lucky the new location is next to their law offices and not 328 Montgomery St.

So will it be just a restaurant or will they try for the Nite Club at their new location.

Are all their permits in order?

Was that their plan all along.

Out of spite, demolish of an historic building on Newark Ave, transfer their liquor license three times (3) ... Newark Ave, Montgomery St and finally the Porto... well they are lawyers so they don't have to pay anyone but them selves... so to speak.

Well good luck to them. Not that they would be so nice to anyone else.

Posted on: 5/12 16:32
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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I'm glad they found a spot.

Posted on: 5/12 13:23
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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Looks like Hard Grove cafe is going to be moving to the old Port-O spot on 286 1st St. They have paper signs tapped to the window. No timeline as to when they are opening.

Posted on: 5/12 12:29
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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Just walked down Newark Ave as all of the vendors are setting up for today's street festival. Can confirm that Hard Grove will be reopening at 328 Montgomery Street - they have a tent set up near / outside their "old" spot on Newark Ave with banners detailing the new location.

Posted on: 2016/9/17 10:38
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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Quote:

mfadam wrote:
Real Estate 101 teaches that all else equal a home in a quiet spot will have a higher value per square foot than one next to a club open til 2AM.

Brightside Tavern has been a consistent problem for their neighbors. I'm told the owner has been reasonably helpful and tried to work with the neighbors. Even with owner assistance there are still quality of life issues that would not be there if there was no bar.

328 owners want live music and a sidewalk cafe. Do you really think they are properly soundproofing the structure?



FWIW, I live right near Brightside and I've had zero issues. Perhaps a couple loud people walking down the block or people stumbling around, but guess what, that's part of living in any city. I appreciate the fact that they're there and I have a local place to go and meet my neighbors and grab a bite. You seem to think a shuttered storefront is a better option.

Your concept of real estate may be valid for suburbs but certainly not a modern city. If you need proof: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/17/rea ... bars-and-restaurants.html

And no, just because most of Van Vorst is zoned historic, that does not mean it should be hermetically sealed and sterile zone. In fact I would love it if the updated master plan had some zoning changes to bring the ground floors of these old buildings into commercial use.

It seems certain people forget the "CITY" part of Jersey City. And cities change. Move to a suburb if you don't like it.

Posted on: 2016/9/14 16:11
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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Quote:

mfadam wrote:
Real Estate 101 teaches that all else equal a home in a quiet spot will have a higher value per square foot than one next to a club open til 2AM.

Brightside Tavern has been a consistent problem for their neighbors. I'm told the owner has been reasonably helpful and tried to work with the neighbors. Even with owner assistance there are still quality of life issues that would not be there if there was no bar.

328 owners want live music and a sidewalk cafe. Do you really think they are properly soundproofing the structure?



The most expensive apartments in DTJC (per sqft) are located right next to a bar. I think you should attend Real Estate 102 for a better understanding of how real estate markets work in an urban area.

Posted on: 2016/9/14 15:46
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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Real Estate 101 teaches that all else equal a home in a quiet spot will have a higher value per square foot than one next to a club open til 2AM.

Brightside Tavern has been a consistent problem for their neighbors. I'm told the owner has been reasonably helpful and tried to work with the neighbors. Even with owner assistance there are still quality of life issues that would not be there if there was no bar.

328 owners want live music and a sidewalk cafe. Do you really think they are properly soundproofing the structure?


Posted on: 2016/9/14 15:13
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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Or White Star Bar, or Hamilton Pork, or Cafe Prato, or Tommy Two Scoops, or Dames, or 9th & Coles, and on and on. And that's just Downtown. This doomsday scenario of loud HVAC noises, kitchen exhaust, plummeting property values, and drunks is just rubbish. The worst that will happen is occasionally you'll have a loud drunk person making noise.

Posted on: 2016/9/14 10:57
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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mfadam wrote:
If you look at the streets which share the courtyard with 328 - Mercer, Varick and Monmouth are all residential. Montgomery has a laundry place and a shuttered museum; otherwise residential. Laundry spots tend not to lead to late night drunken noise, loud commercial HVACs, kitchen exhaust smell, etc.

No chip, just been around the block long enough to know that putting a big bar in a residential area leads to a lot of quality of life negatives, lower property values etc.


Except all the things you state *are not true*. We keep bringing up the examples on PJ Ryan's and Brightside. Did property values plummet and quality of life go down when they opened up? Quite the opposite. This bar/restaurant is not at all large by bar/restaurant standards. The fact you think that a street with existing commercial property adjoining streets with no existing retail is a reason for there to be nothing is idiotic.

If you want a sterile residential community, there are plenty of suburbs in Bergen County.

Posted on: 2016/9/13 18:40
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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If you look at the streets which share the courtyard with 328 - Mercer, Varick and Monmouth are all residential. Montgomery has a laundry place and a shuttered museum; otherwise residential. Laundry spots tend not to lead to late night drunken noise, loud commercial HVACs, kitchen exhaust smell, etc.

No chip, just been around the block long enough to know that putting a big bar in a residential area leads to a lot of quality of life negatives, lower property values etc.

Posted on: 2016/9/13 17:40
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mfadam wrote:
DanL - unfortunately 328 Montgomery is in the Montgomery Gateway Redevelopment area. The Plan was written back in tbe 1970s when that stretch was vastly different than it is today. This is exhibit A for why the city needs a new master plan.

It makes no sense to have a 2500 square foot club/restaurant in an area that is otherwise residential.
Why not? And it's not "otherwise" residential, it's directly next to several other commercial properties, and 1.5 blocks away from Jersey Ave.

Quote:
Furthermore, the owners are counting on the JCFD to NOT enforce the 49 person max occupancy.

Those who know restaurant math - please share the economics on how any owner could make money leasing 2500 sq. feet with a max occupancy of 49 (staff included)...
10-12 staff leaves about 20 tables of two or about 10 tables of four. Doesn't seem too far off from what other restaurants of comparable size (More Express, Wurst Bar, new Madam Claude Bis) fit.

It sounds like you have a real big chip on your shoulder about this place.

Posted on: 2016/9/13 14:47
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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Quote:

dr_nick_riviera wrote:
Quote:

mfadam wrote:
DanL - unfortunately 328 Montgomery is in the Montgomery Gateway Redevelopment area. The Plan was written back in tbe 1970s when that stretch was vastly different than it is today. This is exhibit A for why the city needs a new master plan.

It makes no sense to have a 2500 square foot club/restaurant in an area that is otherwise residential. Furthermore, the owners are counting on the JCFD to NOT enforce the 49 person max occupancy.

Those who know restaurant math - please share the economics on how any owner could make money leasing 2500 sq. feet with a max occupancy of 49 (staff included)...


Well, thankfully for the people in the area that DO want to see more residential and local retail, there's nothing you can do to stop it at this point. I maintain in the absence of proof, your absurd claims aren't true.

For what it's worth, I live two blocks from where this will be and I'm hoping this jumpstarts more businesses coming to that area. Many of my neighbors that I've had this discussion with agree we need better and more local retail, so once again, we have no evidence the views of people opposed represent a majority of people in the area. I hope this becomes a successful business and brings more restaurants and actual useful retail to that block.

And if anything, this will all serve as a giant middle finger to neighborhood NIMBYs who think they're entitled to keep Downtown JC circa 1975 around forever.


I too think we need better and more local retail.
and yet we keep getting bars.

Posted on: 2016/9/13 14:13
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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Quote:

mfadam wrote:
DanL - unfortunately 328 Montgomery is in the Montgomery Gateway Redevelopment area. The Plan was written back in tbe 1970s when that stretch was vastly different than it is today. This is exhibit A for why the city needs a new master plan.

It makes no sense to have a 2500 square foot club/restaurant in an area that is otherwise residential. Furthermore, the owners are counting on the JCFD to NOT enforce the 49 person max occupancy.

Those who know restaurant math - please share the economics on how any owner could make money leasing 2500 sq. feet with a max occupancy of 49 (staff included)...


Well, thankfully for the people in the area that DO want to see more residential and local retail, there's nothing you can do to stop it at this point. I maintain in the absence of proof, your absurd claims aren't true.

For what it's worth, I live two blocks from where this will be and I'm hoping this jumpstarts more businesses coming to that area. Many of my neighbors that I've had this discussion with agree we need better and more local retail, so once again, we have no evidence the views of people opposed represent a majority of people in the area. I hope this becomes a successful business and brings more restaurants and actual useful retail to that block.

And if anything, this will all serve as a giant middle finger to neighborhood NIMBYs who think they're entitled to keep Downtown JC circa 1975 around forever.

Posted on: 2016/9/13 11:01
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DanL - unfortunately 328 Montgomery is in the Montgomery Gateway Redevelopment area. The Plan was written back in tbe 1970s when that stretch was vastly different than it is today. This is exhibit A for why the city needs a new master plan.

It makes no sense to have a 2500 square foot club/restaurant in an area that is otherwise residential. Furthermore, the owners are counting on the JCFD to NOT enforce the 49 person max occupancy.

Those who know restaurant math - please share the economics on how any owner could make money leasing 2500 sq. feet with a max occupancy of 49 (staff included)...

Posted on: 2016/9/13 9:28
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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DanL - unfortunately 328 Montgomery is in the Montgomery Gateway Redevelopment area. The Plan was written back in tbe 1970s when that stretch was vastly different than it is today. This is exhibit A for why the city needs a new master plan.

It makes no sense to have a 2500 square foot club/restaurant in an area that is otherwise residential. Furthermore, the owners are counting on the JCFD to NOT enforce the 49 person max occupancy.

Those who know restaurant math - please share the economics on how any owner could make money leasing 2500 sq. feet with a max occupancy of 49 (staff included)...

Posted on: 2016/9/13 9:28
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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of course they went down to planning to see the plans. that is how things work in jersey city. most plans are not online for your convenience.

and one cannot wait to see how things turnout, people need to express their concerns based on experience, because once changes/variances are granted there is no turning back. there are no trial periods to see how it works out.

there is no compelling reason to allow a bar or restaurant in a residential area where one did not exist in recent times. why shouldn't people be able to have a reasonable expectation that zoning will be stable when they buy property (unless in a redevelopment plan). there is restaurant row where regulations were relaxed to create a destination area. and restaurant row has been expanded.

there are rules for a purpose and when they are changed there should be buy in from those immediately impacted.


Quote:

dr_nick_riviera wrote:
Quote:

Bread wrote:
If you wish to see the plans that show there is only one way in and that is the same way out, the Planning Department at 30 Montgomery St, will be happy to show them to you.

Then you will be able to see for yourself.


Sorry, burden of proof is on the accuser. Making what sound to be unrealistic claims and telling me if I want to see evidence I need to march to city hall and ask is ridiculous.

Did you yourself do that? I think not. It's easy enough for people to jump on the NIMBY bandwagon and keep making ridiculous claims. Sorry Bread and mfadam, it's on you to back up your claims.

As I said, I suspect you won't because it'll invalidate every stupid argument you're trying to make.

Posted on: 2016/9/12 23:18
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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Quote:

Bread wrote:
If you wish to see the plans that show there is only one way in and that is the same way out, the Planning Department at 30 Montgomery St, will be happy to show them to you.

Then you will be able to see for yourself.


Sorry, burden of proof is on the accuser. Making what sound to be unrealistic claims and telling me if I want to see evidence I need to march to city hall and ask is ridiculous.

Did you yourself do that? I think not. It's easy enough for people to jump on the NIMBY bandwagon and keep making ridiculous claims. Sorry Bread and mfadam, it's on you to back up your claims.

As I said, I suspect you won't because it'll invalidate every stupid argument you're trying to make.

Posted on: 2016/9/12 22:01
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If you wish to see the plans that show there is only one way in and that is the same way out, the Planning Department at 30 Montgomery St, will be happy to show them to you.

Then you will be able to see for yourself.

Posted on: 2016/9/12 20:47
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mfadam wrote:
not sure anyone knows whether it will be Hard Grove 2 or something else.

what is public are the architectural plans and they show a very small number of dining tables and a lot of space devoted to bar/lounge area...



Again, can you please post a link to said public plans so we can verify your other claims of one ingress/egress? You already admit that you don't know for sure that it will be Hard Grove 2, so that already blows one of your arguments out of the water.

Brightside has a very large "bar/lounge" area and not too many dining tables, as does PJ Ryan's. Again, this is ridiculous conjecture and NIMBYism at this point.

Posted on: 2016/9/12 11:21
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not sure anyone knows whether it will be Hard Grove 2 or something else.

what is public are the architectural plans and they show a very small number of dining tables and a lot of space devoted to bar/lounge area...


Posted on: 2016/9/12 8:56
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Butter wrote:
I don't think comparing the new Hard Grove to PJ Ryans or Brightside is all that accurate. Both those bars were existing establishments when the current owners moved in. Some may even consider the bars they replaced as nuicance bars. ( PJs former occupant was known for a special menu that was sold in grams, and Brightsides's former occupant was a veiled experiment in nihilism (but kinda fun) called Booney's). Hard Grove is going into an area that hasn't had a bar in 40 years. So it's understandable that the neighbors are leary.
Hard Grove istself changed from a family friendly diner with great Cuban food, cheap, drinks, and dancing at night under the original owner; to a disco that served "not as good" food during the day, under its current owner. So thats another reason to be leary.
I prefer Rolon's above other DTjC bars, which coincidentally started on Monthomery, maybe the same spot of new HG, before moving to Keyhole in early 70's.
BTW Brightside is not an Irish bar.


I think it's also not accurate and unfair to take the past performance of an establishment in a different location and say with 100% certainty it's going to be a repeat. The neighborhood and demographics have changed quite a lot in the area.

I have yet to see any of the NIMBYs railing against this produce a single shred of documentation or evidence supporting their claims of what the concept will be and that this is going to be some neighborhood nuisance. It's all been hearsay and conjecture based on a couple people's personal dislike of the owners. As far as I'm concerned, there's no evidence it's even going to be called "Hard Grove", all we know is that the same group/owners that ran the prior establishment are setting up this current one.

Will all you NIMBYs and VVPA people *please* present some hard evidence to back up your claims? Until you do, as another poster stated, this is NIMBYism at it's worst and thinly disguised racism. I suspect they either can't or will not because like most NIMBY arguments, they easily fall apart in the face of real facts and they end up looking like fools.

Posted on: 2016/9/11 14:13
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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I don't think comparing the new Hard Grove to PJ Ryans or Brightside is all that accurate. Both those bars were existing establishments when the current owners moved in. Some may even consider the bars they replaced as nuicance bars. ( PJs former occupant was known for a special menu that was sold in grams, and Brightsides's former occupant was a veiled experiment in nihilism (but kinda fun) called Booney's). Hard Grove is going into an area that hasn't had a bar in 40 years. So it's understandable that the neighbors are leary.
Hard Grove istself changed from a family friendly diner with great Cuban food, cheap, drinks, and dancing at night under the original owner; to a disco that served "not as good" food during the day, under its current owner. So thats another reason to be leary.
I prefer Rolon's above other DTjC bars, which coincidentally started on Monthomery, maybe the same spot of new HG, before moving to Keyhole in early 70's.
BTW Brightside is not an Irish bar.

Posted on: 2016/9/11 13:33
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Lisa was the worst waitress lol lol, but best human ever, she is missed greatly.

Posted on: 2016/9/11 12:06
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Who misses Lisa, the waitress at the original Hard Grove? She's probably rolling her eyes from up above at this.

I know there was a construction issue with the spot on Newark Ave. Is this new Montgomery location supposed to be the final location or temporary until the issue on Newark Ave gets worked out?

LOL I had to look up NIMBY. Seems so true. I hardly think the NIMBYs are complaining about how their property values have risen because of the new restaurants and energy in DTJC.

Posted on: 2016/9/10 20:58
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Rolon's isn't Latino/Caribbean bar; it's a bar, maybe even a dive bar... are you basing that assessment on the people you see at the bar?

HG has been a solid city patron. Moving into a new spot doesn't mean they get to skirt the rules; assuming they will is unfair.

Quote:

I_heart_JC wrote:
Hard Grove's past location: hella loud.
Brightside & PJs at their current locations: not loud.

I remember people getting worked up before PJs opened. that furor died down as soon as they proved themselves to be decent neighbors.

and to further deflate your accusations of racism: nobody complained about Rolon's Bar (the Keyhole) until the frat boys discovered it, and sh*t got loud.

Posted on: 2016/9/8 13:32
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Re: Hard Grove Cafe
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This is what we need more of. Unfortunately, the neighborhood associations have way too much latitude in determining what businesses get to come in and whether or not to allow businesses to open up at all. If someone doesn't properly tithe or kiss the board's rings, they get deemed a "bad neighbor" or some such thing.

Posted on: 2016/9/7 13:52
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Hard Grove's past location: hella loud.
Brightside & PJs at their current locations: not loud.

I remember people getting worked up before PJs opened. that furor died down as soon as they proved themselves to be decent neighbors.

and to further deflate your accusations of racism: nobody complained about Rolon's Bar (the Keyhole) until the frat boys discovered it, and sh*t got loud.


Quote:

jcScout wrote:
NIMBY bs +1

This is veiled racism. Of course Brightside and PJ Ryan's are OK - they are Irish Pubs... God forbid a Caribbean bar open in the neighborhood! Sound the horns! Brown people might walk in your neighborhood... omg, can someone call the police already?

Quote:

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Quote:

mfadam wrote:
It's a nightclub pretending to be a restaurant. No sane person wants this in a historic district/residential area given all the associated problems.

You think they're gonna do a good job soundproofing it? You think they're gonna stick to their max occupancy of 49 (staff included) daily? Do the owners have a good track record with neighborly relations?



What proof or documents do you have that this is intended as a "night club"? And what sort of nightclub is such with a capacity of only ~45 people (if you exclude employees)?

There are other bars in the neighborhood such as PJ Ryan's and Brightside Tavern that present no problems, and I'm sure the usual VVNA braying occurred when those establishments were coming in.

This is nothing more than NIMBY bs.

Posted on: 2016/9/7 13:36
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I cant wait. It's gonna be Latin and FABULOUS!!!

Posted on: 2016/9/7 13:26
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I remember it was noticeable because the music was louder than the live acts on JC Fridays. After a few hours, dance music gets old if you aren't rolling.

Posted on: 2016/9/7 12:44
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bill wrote:
Wow, how quickly people forget. I lived in Grove Pointe one year and in the summer you could hear Hard Grove's music pretty loudly. I think they sponsored a LGBTQQIAAP night.


It's almost like living right above the center of Grove St PATH and Square would be noisier than other areas of the city..

Posted on: 2016/9/7 12:41
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