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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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jcgurl wrote:
I would definitely love to hear anyone's thoughts on when to sell... before, during or after?


I honestly think it will be one giant game of chicken to see who blinks first. I don't for one second believe the reval will be an "end of world" situation, but I do think a lot of people are completely unaware of how under assessed they are currently: a quick search and analysis of recent sales in Zillow is quite eye opening as to how under assessed some properties are in DTJC, but if you talk to homeowners in town, they feel they are paying a lot, or too much, so they just don't believe that a tax increase is coming their way. I am certain that once the reval is over, and the new estimates are released, a group of "concerned citizens" will bandy together to go to court to try and stop the new assessments from being implemented.

I guess it is best to break it down by the periods you list:
BEFORE - I think the biggest risk in this scenario is losing in potential appreciation between now and the time the market starts to go down.
DURING - Savvy homeowners who know they can not afford the tax increase will start to make their move. But, you risk losing some value if enough people do in fact decide to sell during this period.
AFTER - At this point, I think you will see a lot of rushed listings from people that can't afford the increase but had stuck their head in the sand, were too clueless and never realized what was happening, or were in complete denial about the inevitable.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 20:12
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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jcgurl wrote:
Thanks Dan L and Brewster for the links but they appear to access the same database that doesn't work..............


Use this state wide one:

https://wwwnet1.state.nj.us/Treasury/T ... PS_WEB/Taxlistsearch.aspx


Just put in County: Hudson District: Jersey City
and in the Property Location box you can put in an individual address
or if you want your whole street (to spy on your neighbors) just put in the street like: Erie
I leave Property Class as is to get all classes.

You can also click on the headers of the returned columns to sort the results as you please. (if you are spying on your neighbors)

Posted on: 2016/4/7 20:05
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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SOS wrote:
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brewster wrote:
Hoboken isn't JC, but there was a lot of apocalyptic talk before their recent reval, and the world did not in fact end.

JCgurl http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin ... &out_type=0&district=0906


Hoboken is a mile square city - it's much more homogeneous in terms of geographic distribution of housing value compared to JC. Hoboken isn't JC and you can't really compare the two.


Yes, Hoboken would be more like Downtown if Downtown didn't have the rest of Jersey City attached -- so Hoboken is not at all comparable to our situation.

Obviously speculators who have bought up much of the Heights and Greenville rather cheaply would now love a reval -- but most owners Downtown really hope that the Mayor Fulop can kick this down the road for at least a few more years!

Posted on: 2016/4/7 20:03
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Thanks Dan L and Brewster for the links but they appear to access the same database that doesn't work. Thanks T-Bird for sharing your experience. I know we're underassessed I just don't know by how much. But no matter how much our taxes go up, it will be too much for us. It will be sad to leave JC after almost 15 years of calling it home. I would definitely love to hear anyone's thoughts on when to sell... before, during or after?

Posted on: 2016/4/7 19:37
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I guess between the looming increase on DTJC property taxes, and the 5,000 or so condo units coming live in the next 3 years, and a possible economic slowdown in the next couple of years...prices are clearly "at or near the top" right now in DTJC.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 19:20
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Monroe wrote:

The point is that revals result in revenue stable funds going to the city; some gain, some lose.


Actually, the point is that if you are in the underassessed boat (which I would assume anyone who is on this downtown-centric board worried about what might happen is in that boat), you are going to get hit. Given the length of time between hits (close to 30 years), you are probably going to get hit pretty hard. She was looking for the magnitude - that was my experience. The Maplewood areas on the borders of Irvington and Vauxhall are similar to Bergen/Lafayette in that they hadn't appreciated nearly as rapidly as the area north and west of Prospect St. (or downtown, using JC.)

Posted on: 2016/4/7 19:04
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@Tbird, your taxes went up in Maplewood in the '97 reval. Many on the Irvington and Vauxhall borders saw theirs go down. When Millburn did its last reval, my kid brother and I each saw ours drop 2K each-and dad's house in Short Hills went up by 4K. We still kid him about that!

The point is that revals result in revenue stable funds going to the city; some gain, some lose.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 18:10
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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JSleeze wrote:
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stateaidguy wrote:
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Agreeing with bodhipooh. My question though is why is JC's tax rate similar to that of the suburbs? That seems off. NYC's is much less than 1%, while the suburbs are around 2%.

Should taxes in a dense urban city with shitty schools be the same rate as a suburb with great schools, etc?


This generalization is unfounded because suburban tax rates vary tremendously.

Taxes depend on what percent of the tax base is residential, how many students are in the public schools, how much aid the municipality and school district get from the state, how rich the place is generally, and what kind of tax toleration the town has.

Millburn's Equalized Tax Rate is 1.8 because the town is rich, has a big mall, and actually only spends $15,600 per pupil. (Millburn gets virtually no state aid. Its spending is roughly at Adequacy)

West Orange's ETR is 3.8 because the town gets virtually no state aid despite having high need ($700 per student), isn't that rich (in fact its real estate market is in clear decline) wants to spend $17,700 per student on its schools anyway, doesn't have that much non-residential property.

West Orange's taxes would be even worse if it didn't have a large private school population.

Glen Ridge's taxes are 3.1 because it has virtually no non-residential property, a quarter of its population is in the public schools, and it gets virtually no state aid. Even though GR is affluent, its taxpayers can't keep up and school spending is only $14,600 per student. (this is below Adequacy)

Bloomfield's taxes are 3.6 because doesn't have a lot of non-residential property, and is ripped off on state aid ($3100 a student for a relatively poor population). Bloomfield isn't high spending though; its schools spend only $13,100 per student.

Bloomfield's spending is way below Adequacy.

I could go on and on....


Your knowledge and explanation of the system is quite impressive, but you miss the point: the system is broken. Sure, suburbs are being overburdened by underfunded urban districts - but before we go about rearranging the furniture, why don't we address the gaping hole in the roof (through which all of our $$ is being sucked out): the need for consolidation.

There are waaaaaayyyyy too many school districts in NJ (603 vs. 28 for Maryland.) There are waaaaaayyyyy too many municipalities with far too many overpriced police chiefs and underutilized cops, school administrators, public works employees, et al. There is no need for 2/3 of the towns in NJ and probably 3/4 of the school districts to exist. Many (most?) services currently being provided by towns of 5,000 or fewer people (some of which showed up on the NJ.com list of towns with police chiefs making more than $200k) could be provided by their counties or in conjunction with a neighbor via consolidation or shared services. NJ is the most densely populated state in the country - ideal for reaping economies of scale and efficiencies given the relatively close proximity people have with each other - and yet we choose to go in the exact opposite direction. Baffling, really.


In the abstract I agree with you about consolidation, but I can't think of a bigger political challenge than getting towns and school districts to voluntarily consolidate.

Even when we are only talking municipal mergers of towns that are similar culturally, politically, and economically there is strong opposition to consolidation. Scotch Plains and Fanwood already share a school system and are sister towns, but they don't want to consolidate and haven't even gotten through the study phase of considering the move. South Orange and Maplewood already share a school system but Maplewood doesn't want to consolidate with South Orange. A decade ago there were votes in SO and Maplewood just to set up study commissions on consolidation and Maplewood rejected setting up the commission. I believe there was a "Keep Maplewood Maplewood" campaign, as if merging with South Orange would deMaplewoodize Maplewood.

I don't even need to write a paragraph on the difficulties of consolidation when towns are different culturally, politically, and economically. Those problems are self-evident.

That being said, I don't think it's completely impossible that we might see K-6/K-8 districts consolidate with the towns they share regional high schools with. Steve Sweeney has said that all districts should be K-12s and if a Senate President supports something then I think it automatically has some viability. Sweeney has also said the state needs to use carrot & stick incentives to get municipalities to merge.

HOWEVER, I think that fairness of state aid has to come before consolidation because aid fairness would reduce the budgetary + tax disparities that are one of the biggest obstacles to consolidation.

If you had fairness of state aid and that fairness allowed greater parity of tax rates then, in theory, if a wealthier town merged with a poorer town the wealthier town would not take a tax hit.

There are non-tax reasons districts and towns don't want to consolidate, but I think taxes are one of the biggest.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 17:58
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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brewster wrote:
Hoboken isn't JC, but there was a lot of apocalyptic talk before their recent reval, and the world did not in fact end.

JCgurl http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin ... &out_type=0&district=0906


Hoboken is a mile square city - it's much more homogeneous in terms of geographic distribution of housing value compared to JC. Hoboken isn't JC and you can't really compare the two.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 17:49
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Hoboken isn't JC, but there was a lot of apocalyptic talk before their recent reval, and the world did not in fact end.

JCgurl http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin ... &out_type=0&district=0906

Interesting tidbit about this online data, in a recent appeal where there was a discrepancy JC officials told me "why did you trust what was on the county site when you live in JC?" Silly me! I said because it was available online unlike the city where I'd have to go to their offices.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 17:37
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JJ Poll: Was Mayor Fulop right to halt the reval in 2013?

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... halt_the_reval_in_20.html

Posted on: 2016/4/7 17:35
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you can find your records here - http://www.hudsoncountynj.org/search-tax-records/


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jcgurl wrote:
Well, if that happens, we're outta here. My hubby got laid off a while back and we can barely make it as is. I wonder if we should cash out before the real estate values go down. Presumably, there will increased supply of property for sale once the valuation kicks in?

Also, can anyone tell me where to check the assessed value of my property? This link doesn't appear to work:

http://www.njactb.org/

Posted on: 2016/4/7 17:35
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I think there are real estate agents/brokers that comment on this website from time to time (esp when someone says they're looking for an agent to buy in jC!!!).

Can one of you (or perhaps all of you) chime in and provide some thoughts from your end???

Posted on: 2016/4/7 17:29
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Well, if that happens, we're outta here. My hubby got laid off a while back and we can barely make it as is. I wonder if we should cash out before the real estate values go down. Presumably, there will increased supply of property for sale once the valuation kicks in?

Also, can anyone tell me where to check the assessed value of my property? This link doesn't appear to work:

http://www.njactb.org/

Posted on: 2016/4/7 17:10
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jcgurl wrote:
So, does anyone have any thoughts on how the reval will impact property values and how drastic tax increases could be? Has anyone experienced this process in other municipalities?


I did in Maplewood, in 1997. Taxes went from about $8,500 to just over $13,000 - a more than 50% increase

Posted on: 2016/4/7 16:58
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So, does anyone have any thoughts on how the reval will impact property values and how drastic tax increases could be? Has anyone experienced this process in other municipalities?

Posted on: 2016/4/7 16:50
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Tommyc_37.. The taxes in the suburbs with shitty schools are higher than jersey city in a lot of long island. my dad's house in nassau county is worth 150,000 less than my house and he pays 5 grand more a year. he lives in a south shore town with an abysmal school district so that is not an accurate statement.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 16:16
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135jc wrote:
My point Brewster was that the abated properties downtown are paying their fair share. They are not getting some free ride as you theorize. It will be the older properties that feel the pain whether it be downtown or elsewhere.


Where have I said that? you're confusing me with Yvonne, the horror!

re other posts:NYC property taxes are a total anomoly, subsidized by business. You can't compare anyplace to to that. And a similar property would be 2x more in Brooklyn.

Of course our money goes down the drain to the ridiculous number of municipalities. But the entrenched interests will NEVER let that change. They'll beat the drum that merging public safety will endanger us, just like even just combining the commands caused in JC. We are disempowered by this. If Hudson County were a single city, as it would be anywhere else but ridiculous Jersey, it would be both bigger in population and denser than Boston, Denver, Portland, Baltimore, and numerous other "big name" cities.

"What do we have in JC that's comparable (except McNair, but that's HS only)???"

There's the AEP magnet middle schools A-1 & MS4, there's the county Hi-tech & County Prep, there's Infinity Institute 6-12. Not to mention the Downtown k-8's that are doing pretty well. The school situation needs much improvement, but it's not as dire as you say for a smart kid.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 15:27
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stateaidguy wrote:
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Agreeing with bodhipooh. My question though is why is JC's tax rate similar to that of the suburbs? That seems off. NYC's is much less than 1%, while the suburbs are around 2%.

Should taxes in a dense urban city with shitty schools be the same rate as a suburb with great schools, etc?


This generalization is unfounded because suburban tax rates vary tremendously.

Taxes depend on what percent of the tax base is residential, how many students are in the public schools, how much aid the municipality and school district get from the state, how rich the place is generally, and what kind of tax toleration the town has.

Millburn's Equalized Tax Rate is 1.8 because the town is rich, has a big mall, and actually only spends $15,600 per pupil. (Millburn gets virtually no state aid. Its spending is roughly at Adequacy)

West Orange's ETR is 3.8 because the town gets virtually no state aid despite having high need ($700 per student), isn't that rich (in fact its real estate market is in clear decline) wants to spend $17,700 per student on its schools anyway, doesn't have that much non-residential property.

West Orange's taxes would be even worse if it didn't have a large private school population.

Glen Ridge's taxes are 3.1 because it has virtually no non-residential property, a quarter of its population is in the public schools, and it gets virtually no state aid. Even though GR is affluent, its taxpayers can't keep up and school spending is only $14,600 per student. (this is below Adequacy)

Bloomfield's taxes are 3.6 because doesn't have a lot of non-residential property, and is ripped off on state aid ($3100 a student for a relatively poor population). Bloomfield isn't high spending though; its schools spend only $13,100 per student.

Bloomfield's spending is way below Adequacy.

I could go on and on....


Your knowledge and explanation of the system is quite impressive, but you miss the point: the system is broken. Sure, suburbs are being overburdened by underfunded urban districts - but before we go about rearranging the furniture, why don't we address the gaping hole in the roof (through which all of our $$ is being sucked out): the need for consolidation.

There are waaaaaayyyyy too many school districts in NJ (603 vs. 28 for Maryland.) There are waaaaaayyyyy too many municipalities with far too many overpriced police chiefs and underutilized cops, school administrators, public works employees, et al. There is no need for 2/3 of the towns in NJ and probably 3/4 of the school districts to exist. Many (most?) services currently being provided by towns of 5,000 or fewer people (some of which showed up on the NJ.com list of towns with police chiefs making more than $200k) could be provided by their counties or in conjunction with a neighbor via consolidation or shared services. NJ is the most densely populated state in the country - ideal for reaping economies of scale and efficiencies given the relatively close proximity people have with each other - and yet we choose to go in the exact opposite direction. Baffling, really.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 15:02
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Agreeing with bodhipooh. My question though is why is JC's tax rate similar to that of the suburbs? That seems off. NYC's is much less than 1%, while the suburbs are around 2%.

Should taxes in a dense urban city with shitty schools be the same rate as a suburb with great schools, etc?


I would point out that NYC is a bit of a different beast in these comparisons because they derive a huge amount of money from corporate taxes, particularly Wall Street, which is why their property taxes can remain so low. I have friends in BK living in ~500K homes and paying a pittance in taxes (yes, around 1%, or less) but that's not possible for JC or other NJ towns. But, it is definitely a matter of concern that our taxes just don't go far enough in JC when compared to other NJ municipalities. I just can't stomach the idea of paying 20K in taxes without getting much of anything in return in terms of city services (decent roads and clean streets) or satisfactory schools. For that kind of money, you ARE better off in NYC, especially if you have kids and will be spending an extra 15K (or, more!) in private schooling. Factor in the fact that NYC now has universal Pre K and the math starts to skew towards a move back across the river.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 14:36
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Agreeing with bodhipooh. My question though is why is JC's tax rate similar to that of the suburbs? That seems off. NYC's is much less than 1%, while the suburbs are around 2%.

Should taxes in a dense urban city with shitty schools be the same rate as a suburb with great schools, etc?


This generalization is unfounded because suburban tax rates vary tremendously.

Taxes depend on what percent of the tax base is residential, how many students are in the public schools, how much aid the municipality and school district get from the state, how rich the place is generally, and what kind of tax toleration the town has.

Millburn's Equalized Tax Rate is 1.8 because the town is rich, has a big mall, and actually only spends $15,600 per pupil. (Millburn gets virtually no state aid. Its spending is roughly at Adequacy)

West Orange's ETR is 3.8 because the town gets virtually no state aid despite having high need ($700 per student), isn't that rich (in fact its real estate market is in clear decline) wants to spend $17,700 per student on its schools anyway, doesn't have that much non-residential property.

West Orange's taxes would be even worse if it didn't have a large private school population.

Glen Ridge's taxes are 3.1 because it has virtually no non-residential property, a quarter of its population is in the public schools, and it gets virtually no state aid. Even though GR is affluent, its taxpayers can't keep up and school spending is only $14,600 per student. (this is below Adequacy)

Bloomfield's taxes are 3.6 because doesn't have a lot of non-residential property, and is ripped off on state aid ($3100 a student for a relatively poor population). Bloomfield isn't high spending though; its schools spend only $13,100 per student.

Bloomfield's spending is way below Adequacy.

I could go on and on....

Posted on: 2016/4/7 13:59
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bodhipooh wrote:

If you live across the river, even if your taxable NY income is around 300K as a couple, you are looking at about 10K in additional income tax. Assuming a 1.5 MM property, you are at worst breaking even, and at best saving money, by living across the river in NYC. This is particularly true if you factor in things like better schools, and city services, when compared to JC. The crazy property taxes in NJ are slowly erasing some of the reasons to live on this side.

Ultimately, we need to get this reval done so we can remove all the confusion and uncertainty about the local RE market. Incredibly, it seems like a lot of homeowners are completely unaware of the looming issue, and how it will affect them.


That's very true - also, NYC has much better choices for school!!! A lot of my friends who live in NYC has much better public schools where they live, or they can try for those specialty schools. All of them for free.

What do we have in JC that's comparable (except McNair, but that's HS only)???

I currently pay ~$8K on property taxes per year for a condo in downtown, and pay separately for private school for my two children. I can't imagine paying $$17K per year in property taxes (that would be the estimated new rate), and still pay for private school. We just can't afford that.

Ironically, it may be cheaper for us to move across the river!!!


Posted on: 2016/4/7 13:39

Edited by SRhia on 2016/4/7 13:58:51
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Agreeing with bodhipooh. My question though is why is JC's tax rate similar to that of the suburbs? That seems off. NYC's is much less than 1%, while the suburbs are around 2%.

Should taxes in a dense urban city with shitty schools be the same rate as a suburb with great schools, etc?

Posted on: 2016/4/7 13:30
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tommyc_37 wrote:
So...safe to say that once the reval happens, property values in DTJC are going to decline overall -- right? Or am I over simplifying it?

I can't imagine owning a decent 2-3 bedroom property in DTJC and paying $20k in taxes, every year, for very little services or low quality services. Poor schools. Being woken up at 3am 3x per week by garbage trucks. What exactly would I be receiving for $20,000 each year? That's insane.

A comparable property in Brooklyn would be paying $5k/year.

With taxes that high, I struggle to understand why somebody would consider buying in JC over other similar neighborhoods in the area, specifically across the river?

Which leads me to my (I guess obvious?) prediction that prices will simmer down in JC post-reval.


If you buy across the river you are stuck paying the NYC income tax, which is substantial. But I agree that once people realize what will happen, prices will fall. Good time to sell now.


If you live across the river, even if your taxable NY income is around 300K as a couple, you are looking at about 10K in additional income tax. Assuming a 1.5 MM property, you are at worst breaking even, and at best saving money, by living across the river in NYC. This is particularly true if you factor in things like better schools, and city services, when compared to JC. The crazy property taxes in NJ are slowly erasing some of the reasons to live on this side.

Ultimately, we need to get this reval done so we can remove all the confusion and uncertainty about the local RE market. Incredibly, it seems like a lot of homeowners are completely unaware of the looming issue, and how it will affect them.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 13:01
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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My point Brewster was that the abated properties downtown are paying their fair share. They are not getting some free ride as you theorize. It will be the older properties that feel the pain whether it be downtown or elsewhere.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 4:16
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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tommyc_37 wrote:
So...safe to say that once the reval happens, property values in DTJC are going to decline overall -- right? Or am I over simplifying it?

I can't imagine owning a decent 2-3 bedroom property in DTJC and paying $20k in taxes, every year, for very little services or low quality services. Poor schools. Being woken up at 3am 3x per week by garbage trucks. What exactly would I be receiving for $20,000 each year? That's insane.

A comparable property in Brooklyn would be paying $5k/year.

With taxes that high, I struggle to understand why somebody would consider buying in JC over other similar neighborhoods in the area, specifically across the river?

Which leads me to my (I guess obvious?) prediction that prices will simmer down in JC post-reval.


If you buy across the river you are stuck paying the NYC income tax, which is substantial. But I agree that once people realize what will happen, prices will fall. Good time to sell now.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 3:57
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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So...safe to say that once the reval happens, property values in DTJC are going to decline overall -- right? Or am I over simplifying it?

I can't imagine owning a decent 2-3 bedroom property in DTJC and paying $20k in taxes, every year, for very little services or low quality services. Poor schools. Being woken up at 3am 3x per week by garbage trucks. What exactly would I be receiving for $20,000 each year? That's insane.

A comparable property in Brooklyn would be paying $5k/year.

With taxes that high, I struggle to understand why somebody would consider buying in JC over other similar neighborhoods in the area, specifically across the river?

Which leads me to my (I guess obvious?) prediction that prices will simmer down in JC post-reval.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 3:36
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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135jc wrote:
Yes it exists in downtown but downtown has all the new construction so far. These properties are assessed much closer to their true value. Once the revale occurs the building with abatements will actually be getting a true discount compared to other properties


You're pretty incoherent, but it doesn't matter. The reval is about fairness within the tax base, what's outside is irrelevant. The abated properties pay PILOTS that were set relative to what the tax would have been under the assessment system, not relative to the under assessed older properties.

Posted on: 2016/4/7 2:19
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Yes it exists in downtown but downtown has all the new construction so far. These properties are assessed much closer to their true value. Once the revale occurs the building with abatements will actually be getting a true discount compared to other properties

Posted on: 2016/4/6 21:04
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135jc wrote:
Hamhock. That's is a joke right? The new downtown properties are supporting the city. It's certianly not the 1980s assessed properties paying taxes on 25% of their actual market value


Incorrect. Many appreciated downtown properties are assessed at the 1980s equivalent. That's the issue. New properties are also valued at a fraction of their current value.

Posted on: 2016/4/6 18:41
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