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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Frinjc wrote:
One way to ensure compliance would be to double the estimate of number of utilities in a house/condo by default prior to the inspection.


Please explain

Posted on: 2015/8/12 0:09
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Nice but I truly believe in Chilltown now and a town that measures to its ideals.

The reval was cancelled. The process was flawed. We can restart another one as long as the process is specific, measurable and verifiable. One way to ensure compliance would be to double the estimate of number of utilities in a house/condo by default prior to the inspection. The owner would have all incentive to show their place within 6 months-1 year time. For the record I also live downtown but I believe in truly fair and balanced taxation.

Posted on: 2015/8/12 0:03
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Frinjc wrote:
I am actually one of the few who allowed their house/apart to be inspected during the reval. I can certify that: 1) the "inspector" used a pencil to check/write on the form; 2) the "inspector" did not measure square footage for my property either as room(s) or as a whole; 3) the "inspector" had a gaze suggesting that "facilitating" the process would actually help my cause; 4) I did not provide an envelop. I am available to testify on this under oath.


Maybe you should have just paid the guy. If you don't, the government will legally go after you and it will just cost more.

Posted on: 2015/8/11 23:43
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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I am actually one of the few who allowed their house/apart to be inspected during the reval. I can certify that: 1) the "inspector" used a pencil to check/write on the form; 2) the "inspector" did not measure square footage for my property either as room(s) or as a whole; 3) the "inspector" had a gaze suggesting that "facilitating" the process would actually help my cause; 4) I did not provide an envelop. I am available to testify on this under oath.

Posted on: 2015/8/11 23:10
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I'm curious how you folks feel about illegal dwelling units. Thousands of houses in this town are zoned for one family, but may contain 2 or 3 units. It's a much bigger infraction than Prato and its patio furniture but the city knows there are a lot of families that would be homeless if they shut them down en mass. Any renters want to admit that they live in an illegal dwelling?


I know my dwelling is legal but what does this have to do with Prato anyway? Other people violating the law gives Prato the right to do it too?

As for your other comment about "enjoy the reval", what are you talking about? Didn't Fulop put an end to that?

Posted on: 2015/8/11 18:29
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Posted on: 2015/8/11 16:09
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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JCGuys wrote:
There are hundreds of code violations a lot more serious in this town (like the Brothels of Newark Ave...). Prato just had a squeaky neighbor.

That "squeaky neighbor" has every right to make sure Prato is obeying the law.


Quote:
The remedy should be as serious as a parking ticket. Pay a fine. Followed by applying and receiving a minor variance.

They opened a business in a residential neighborhood without bothering to get the right zoning. They have not been shut down, we haven't heard of them paying massive fines, all that's happening is they can't have tables until they get the zoning sorted out. Sounds reasonable.


Quote:
I'm curious how you folks feel about illegal dwelling units.

They should also be stopped.

What does that have to do with anything? It's not like the city is expending a ton of resources in this matter.


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To the neighbor, enjoy the reval.

What is that supposed to mean?

Posted on: 2015/8/11 0:45
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JCGuys wrote:
There are hundreds of code violations a lot more serious in this town (like the still operating Brothels of Newark Ave that our former fire inspector was accused of accepting bribes from, per the federal indictment...). Prato just had a squeaky neighbor. The remedy should be as serious as a parking ticket. Pay a fine. Followed by applying and receiving a minor variance.

I'm curious how you folks feel about illegal dwelling units. Thousands of houses in this town are zoned for one family, but may contain 2 or 3 units. It's a much bigger infraction than Prato and its patio furniture but the city knows there are a lot of families that would be homeless if they shut them down en mass. Any renters want to admit that they live in an illegal dwelling? If you dislike your landlord, I know a way to get him in a lot of trouble but you may lose your below market rental...

To the neighbor's of Prato, enjoy the reval.


Actually, the reval data would be an excellent way to uncover illegal units - matching up the number of kitchens in a building with the number of units on the books, would be a start.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 23:44
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There are hundreds of code violations a lot more serious in this town (like the still operating Brothels of Newark Ave that our former fire inspector was accused of accepting bribes from, per the federal indictment...). Prato just had a squeaky neighbor. The remedy should be as serious as a parking ticket. Pay a fine. Followed by applying and receiving a minor variance.

I'm curious how you folks feel about illegal dwelling units. Thousands of houses in this town are zoned for one family, but may contain 2 or 3 units. It's a much bigger infraction than Prato and its patio furniture but the city knows there are a lot of families that would be homeless if they shut them down en mass. Any renters want to admit that they live in an illegal dwelling? If you dislike your landlord, I know a way to get him in a lot of trouble but you may lose your below market rental...

To the neighbor's of Prato, enjoy the reval.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 23:13

Edited by JCGuys on 2015/8/10 23:32:12
Edited by JCGuys on 2015/8/10 23:38:20
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There are hundreds of code violations a lot more serious in this town (like the Brothels of Newark Ave...). Prato just had a squeaky neighbor. The remedy should be as serious as a parking ticket. Pay a fine. Followed by applying and receiving a minor variance.

I'm curious how you folks feel about illegal dwelling units. Thousands of houses in this town are zoned for one family, but may contain 2 or 3 units. It's a much bigger infraction than Prato and its patio furniture but the city turns a blind eye because there are a lot of families that would be homeless. Any renters want to admit that they live in an illegal dwelling?

Yvonne, you're not a huge fan of more affordable housing in Jersey City. Think about all the poor people with their multiple kids that would be kicked out of this town so you could pay lower school taxes if the city enforced zoning code restrictions on single family dwellings housing multiple families.

To the neighbor, enjoy the reval.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 22:40
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On_The_3rd wrote:
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MikeyTBC wrote:
24/7 on newark now has outdoor seating.
The horror.


Saw this too, now I can finally have a spot to eat my Skittles and do scratch-offs.


Yeah, but does it meet the zoning code? If not those outdoor seating degrades the quality of life for neighbors.


It's all fun and games, and worthy of jokes and derision, until people start to complain about lecherous lowlifes loitering outside these places being an annoyance. Jersey City has had a rich, storied history of this type of nuisances.

But, by all means, let's continue minimizing and generally dismissing the very valid concerns of your neighbors.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 21:58
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MikeyTBC wrote:
24/7 on newark now has outdoor seating.
The horror.


Saw this too, now I can finally have a spot to eat my Skittles and do scratch-offs.


Yeah, but does it meet the zoning code? If not those outdoor seating degrades the quality of life for neighbors.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 20:44
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MikeyTBC wrote:
24/7 on newark now has outdoor seating.
The horror.


Saw this too, now I can finally have a spot to eat my Skittles and do scratch-offs.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 19:51
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hamhock wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
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hamhock wrote:
I'm still not clear on how Prato having a backyard seating area will bring the neighborhood to its knees, while Dames Espresso's existing backyard space does not. Ditto to how said backyard space will negatively impact a neighborhood with noise, while the tire shop a half block away on Erie does not.


the Dames location is zoned for backyard seating, and has been an eating establishment with garden tables through several name changes. anyone who buys a house near Dames knows that they'll be privy to the noise of outdoor diners.

the tire shop has been there probably since the Coolidge administration.

the Prato bakery is zoned as a takeaway establishment. they knew that when they signed the lease. their neighbors purchased their houses next to a business with a dormant, quiet backyard.

why is this so hard to understand?


It isn't. People are just being willfully ignorant. Those of us being rational about the whole thing would like to see a good, sensible compromise. I don't think ANYONE is actually advocating for Prato going out of business. They have a great product, good employees and are an overall PLUS for the neighborhood and immediate area, but they violated their zoning. Zoning is there for a reason. Any variance should be requested through proper channels, reviewed, discussed, and then granted or denied.


I was singly referring to the "save our children from backyard predators" rant, not being willfully obtuse. I completely agree that Prato should apply for a variance, as that's the smartest way to proceed legally going forward.


On that, I think we can all agree (save for a few nuts...!)

The rant was completely off base, and it was your typical garden variety fear mongering, but a bunch of people here called them out on that.


yes, that rant was bonkers, and distracted hugely from the many reasonable points made on this thread.

I think many of us (?) can also agree that, while the zoning process in JC leaves much to be desired, going rogue isn't the answer.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 17:17
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bodhipooh wrote:
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I_heart_JC wrote:
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hamhock wrote:
I'm still not clear on how Prato having a backyard seating area will bring the neighborhood to its knees, while Dames Espresso's existing backyard space does not. Ditto to how said backyard space will negatively impact a neighborhood with noise, while the tire shop a half block away on Erie does not.


the Dames location is zoned for backyard seating, and has been an eating establishment with garden tables through several name changes. anyone who buys a house near Dames knows that they'll be privy to the noise of outdoor diners.

the tire shop has been there probably since the Coolidge administration.

the Prato bakery is zoned as a takeaway establishment. they knew that when they signed the lease. their neighbors purchased their houses next to a business with a dormant, quiet backyard.

why is this so hard to understand?


It isn't. People are just being willfully ignorant. Those of us being rational about the whole thing would like to see a good, sensible compromise. I don't think ANYONE is actually advocating for Prato going out of business. They have a great product, good employees and are an overall PLUS for the neighborhood and immediate area, but they violated their zoning. Zoning is there for a reason. Any variance should be requested through proper channels, reviewed, discussed, and then granted or denied.


I was singly referring to the "save our children from backyard predators" rant, not being willfully obtuse. I completely agree that Prato should apply for a variance, as that's the smartest way to proceed legally going forward.


On that, I think we can all agree (save for a few nuts...!)

The rant was completely off base, and it was your typical garden variety fear mongering, but a bunch of people here called them out on that.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 16:48
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bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

I_heart_JC wrote:
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hamhock wrote:
I'm still not clear on how Prato having a backyard seating area will bring the neighborhood to its knees, while Dames Espresso's existing backyard space does not. Ditto to how said backyard space will negatively impact a neighborhood with noise, while the tire shop a half block away on Erie does not.


the Dames location is zoned for backyard seating, and has been an eating establishment with garden tables through several name changes. anyone who buys a house near Dames knows that they'll be privy to the noise of outdoor diners.

the tire shop has been there probably since the Coolidge administration.

the Prato bakery is zoned as a takeaway establishment. they knew that when they signed the lease. their neighbors purchased their houses next to a business with a dormant, quiet backyard.

why is this so hard to understand?


It isn't. People are just being willfully ignorant. Those of us being rational about the whole thing would like to see a good, sensible compromise. I don't think ANYONE is actually advocating for Prato going out of business. They have a great product, good employees and are an overall PLUS for the neighborhood and immediate area, but they violated their zoning. Zoning is there for a reason. Any variance should be requested through proper channels, reviewed, discussed, and then granted or denied.


I was singly referring to the "save our children from backyard predators" rant, not being willfully obtuse. I completely agree that Prato should apply for a variance, as that's the smartest way to proceed legally going forward.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 16:43
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hamhock wrote:
I'm still not clear on how Prato having a backyard seating area will bring the neighborhood to its knees, while Dames Espresso's existing backyard space does not. Ditto to how said backyard space will negatively impact a neighborhood with noise, while the tire shop a half block away on Erie does not.


the Dames location is zoned for backyard seating, and has been an eating establishment with garden tables through several name changes. anyone who buys a house near Dames knows that they'll be privy to the noise of outdoor diners.

the tire shop has been there probably since the Coolidge administration.

the Prato bakery is zoned as a takeaway establishment. they knew that when they signed the lease. their neighbors purchased their houses next to a business with a dormant, quiet backyard.

why is this so hard to understand?


It isn't. People are just being willfully ignorant. Those of us being rational about the whole thing would like to see a good, sensible compromise. I don't think ANYONE is actually advocating for Prato going out of business. They have a great product, good employees and are an overall PLUS for the neighborhood and immediate area, but they violated their zoning. Zoning is there for a reason. Any variance should be requested through proper channels, reviewed, discussed, and then granted or denied.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 16:27
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hamhock wrote:
I'm still not clear on how Prato having a backyard seating area will bring the neighborhood to its knees, while Dames Espresso's existing backyard space does not. Ditto to how said backyard space will negatively impact a neighborhood with noise, while the tire shop a half block away on Erie does not.


the Dames location is zoned for backyard seating, and has been an eating establishment with garden tables through several name changes. anyone who buys a house near Dames knows that they'll be privy to the noise of outdoor diners.

the tire shop has been there probably since the Coolidge administration.

the Prato bakery is zoned as a takeaway establishment. they knew that when they signed the lease. their neighbors purchased their houses next to a business with a dormant, quiet backyard.

why is this so hard to understand?

Posted on: 2015/8/10 16:21
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I'm still not clear on how Prato having a backyard seating area will bring the neighborhood to its knees, while Dames Espresso's existing backyard space does not. Ditto to how said backyard space will negatively impact a neighborhood with noise, while the tire shop a half block away on Erie does not.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 15:51
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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"The time to act is NOW so if you have any desire to protect your safety, your children?s safety, your pets, your quality of life and your property then you MUST act now!"

hahahaha. The horrors of Nutella sandwiches and cappuccinos!!

Posted on: 2015/8/10 15:45
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24/7 on newark now has outdoor seating.
The horror.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 14:09
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But the city lost an awesome little cafe with an outdoor patio. That's the trade off to satisfy the neighbor.


No they didn't. Prato is still there. For someone defending them as rabidly as you are, perhaps you should patronize the place once in a while?


I was just thinking the same thing: Prato is still there. They haven't been forced to shut down, or to go away. They were simply told they couldn't have outdoor seating and there is now some debate as to whether seating is allowed inside and outside given their legal zoning status.

Posted on: 2015/8/10 12:25
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But the city lost an awesome little cafe with an outdoor patio. That's the trade off to satisfy the neighbor.


No they didn't. Prato is still there. For someone defending them as rabidly as you are, perhaps you should patronize the place once in a while?

Posted on: 2015/8/10 8:13
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Prato, you should have stayed east of the Hudson.

Quote:

jerseymom wrote:
Here is the text of the petition:

Prato Bakery is suffering. A neighbor who lives next door to the business has placed a complaint against the bakery, stopping the preparation of a community back garden, and forcing the bakery to remove all of their tables and chairs as of this morning while the dispute is resolved. This issue places strain on the business and it threatens not only its survival, but the thriving of the community.

Prato is a lovely little neighborhood hub, in the heart of the Jersey City, that offers as uniquely warm atmosphere and is frequented by neighbors and families.

We want to ask the community to support this petition to keep Prato Bakery open, and to encourage Steve Fulop (Mayor of Jersey City) to take action in defending a small business that adds a lot of value and vibrance to a rapidly flourishing community.


(This is utterly ridiculous. This guy expanded from NYC and chose Jersey City to move his business to. He worked for a year to open this place. He is a great guy and a great addition to the JC community. Bakeries do not have a great margin to begin with - impeding business like this could be very harmful. As 3rd noted, what's the real story here?)

Posted on: 2015/8/10 5:00
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Congratulations, JCList. This is the philopshy of the neighbors against Prato Bakery. Hope you all are happy being apologists to this group.

squeeg wrote:
Dear Neighbors,

The city of Jersey City is attempting to push a new Caf? ordinance through the planning board then rubber stamp it off for a vote and adoption over then next two weeks. The city is counting on you to do nothing; they are expecting you to ignore this. Do not assume that others will speak up for you! Jersey City is OUR city so read below and consider your options.

The language in the new Caf? ordinance proposes to grant additional rights for current and future caf??s, bakeries (like Prato), restaurants, bodega?s etc., to add expanded seating inside their establishments as well as add additional seating to their storefronts and in their rear back yards!

Additionally, this new caf? ordinance will allow for an increase in the amount of ovens, exhaust systems & expanded hours of operation and become a gateway for future liquor licenses. If you are familiar with Hoboken then you will understand how badly this will affect our neighborhoods forever.

If the new ordinance passes it will affect everyone who currently lives near or around a caf?, bakery, restaurant, bodega etc., as it will not only increase foot traffic, but it will allow access for thieves, predators, pedophiles and crowds into our homes through presently off limit rear yard entry points.

The new ordinance is being forcefully pushed through by Mayor Fulop and supported by Councilwomen Osborne as a means to add dollars into city coffers by taxing businesses for this new privilege with few restrictions. I can assure that the smell of fresh bread or easy access to a croissant sounds nice but when the baker moves and a bar moves in you will quickly change your tune?.by then it will be too late!

YOU CANNOT IGNORE THIS CALL TO ACTION! YOU MUST NOT ASSUME IT WILL JUST GO AWAY?IF THE ORDINACE IS PASSED IT WILL CHANGE THE FACE OF OUR NEIGHBORHOODS AND AFFECT YOUR QUALITY OF LIFE, YOUR PROPERTY AND YOUR SAFETY FOREVER!

The time to act is NOW so if you have any desire to protect your safety, your children?s safety, your pets, your quality of life and your property then you MUST act now!

The new Cafe Ordinance is being introduced for public input on July 21st at 5:30pm at 280 Grove Street, 2nd Fl. JC.

Please show up and voice your concerns and objections so Mayor Fulop, Council Women Osborn, Zoning, the Planning Board and the rank and file of JC government hear you loud and clear.

WE CANNOT DO THIS ALONE ? WE NEED YOUR HELP T0 KEEP OUR COMMUNITES AS THEY ARE ? CLEAN, SAFE AND QUITE. KEEP OUR BACK YARDS OFF LIMITS & NUSANCE FREE AND PROTECT THE PEOPLE OF JERSEY CITY WHO WORK HARD AND ENJOY A PEACFUL EXISTANCE.

Please immediately email and/or call Mayor Fulop, Council Women Osborne and Nick Taylor in Zoning to express your displeasure with the proposed new Cafe Ordinance before Tuesday. If you cannot attend the planning board meeting on July 21st then please use the contact information below before it?s too late.

This has absolutely nothing to do with a few tables in a Bakery it has all to do with keeping back yards OFF LIMITS and keeping restrictions intact! Those of you who do not live next to a property that may become a backyard eatery try wearing the hat of someone in JC who does! It's that simple!!!

Mayor Steven Fulop
Email: fulops@jcnj.org
Phone: 201-547-5200

Council woman Osborne
Email: cosborne@jcnj.org
Phone: 201-547-5315

Zoning Officer - Nick Taylor
Email: ntaylor@jcnj.org
Phone: 201-547-4832

Posted on: 2015/8/10 4:52
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so...who's gonna shop at Prato and businesses like it, if not the neighbors?

people who made a huge financial commitment to live in Jersey City - not just collect a paycheck here - deserve to not have their standard of living changed on a neighboring business's whim.


I disagree with the premise that Prato decreases the standard of living for the neighborhood. It does exactly the opposite. This whole thing was generated because a neighbor complained to the city's code enforcement department and ruined it for the rest of us. Yes, technically it did not comply with code and the neighbor was within their rights. But the city lost an awesome little cafe with an outdoor patio. That's the trade off to satisfy the neighbor. Btw, anyone remember the exact concerns the neighbor had?

Posted on: 2015/8/10 4:47
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JCGuys wrote:
Thanks! Is anyone going to speak in support?

I would like to see more cafe's like Prato Bakeries setup shop in the city, legally.



and there's the key word: legally.

look, I enjoy Prato, and think they're a great addition to the neighborhood, but they entered into their lease with full knowledge of the zoning restrictions (and if they didn't, then they're knuckleheads.)

first, they added indoor tables. then, when nobody complained, they pushed their luck by adding seating out back.

now they've been asked to stick to the letter of the zoning that they originally agreed to, and they're trying to paint their neighbors as pitchfork-wielding NIMBYs.

not cool, Prato.

I really hope this works out to everyone's benefit. I'd like Prato to stay, and I'd like their neighbors to continue to enjoy living there. but if these two notions are mutually exclusive, them I'm gonna have to be Team Neighbor.


You ever try to deal with Jersey City's building, code and zoning officials? They surely don't make it easy on small business owners. It's the last thing they need in New Jersey, which is already a very expensive place to do business.

Not excusing Prato but it should be a wake up call for the rest of us that care about living in a vibrant city that our code and zoning are so restrictive that a place like Prato can't legally open up in the this or other neighborhoods.

Also not a fan of the scare tactics being used by Team Neighbors. Prato and businesses like it are more important to the city than the neighbors own selfish interest.

I remain confident that their will be a last minute morphing of the cafe ordinance so it covers Prato and allows it and others to legally operate.


so...who's gonna shop at Prato and businesses like it, if not the neighbors?

people who made a huge financial commitment to live in Jersey City - not just collect a paycheck here - deserve to not have their standard of living changed on a neighboring business's whim.

(I say this as a renter, who does not live adjacent to Prato.)

Posted on: 2015/8/10 4:30
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Disagree. But now I understand why you posted that strange article the other day!

Posted on: 2015/8/10 3:10
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Thank you, agreed it's not an Atomic Wing situation. (Has the issues with JC Building Dept. been resolved?)

Prato is more on the level of neighbors complaining about a 9-Year-Old's 'Little Free Library' bookcase for being an 'illegal accessory building' or cities that ban clotheslines from private backyard, despite it being environmentally friendly and energy-saving, because a few bougie neighbors think it's a nuisance.

At least Jersey City isn't shutting down a little girl's lemonade stand for lacking a permit. Thankfully, no pizzeria establishments along Newark Ave. sell lemonade!

Posted on: 2015/8/10 2:46
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

K-Lo wrote:
Quote:
zoning are so restrictive that a place like Prato can't legally open up in the this or other neighborhoods


But Prato did legally open, and they were getting great word of mouth and building their customer base....and then they started expanding in a way they knew was illegal. This isn't a repeat of Atomic Wings.


Sigh... Atomic Wings. In the Hall of Shame of JC BD shenanigans, this likely takes the top spot.


I'm unfamiliar. What's the story behind Atomic Wings?


It can be boiled down to this: individual decides to open a business, goes through process to do so, city inspectors keep failing him during each visit/inspection and, after the process has dragged out for almost two years, he finally gets to open for business, at which point he is under a crushing debt load and is unable to make a go of it. He ended up suing the city.

Here is the JCLIST thread about the lawsuit as we discussed it five years ago. Pretty sad to see how little things have changed since then.

http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewt ... order=DESC&status=&mode=0

Posted on: 2015/8/9 21:55
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