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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Does anyone know what happened at the Tuesday (7/21/15) meeting?

Posted on: 2015/7/23 16:01
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Something some people on this thread are not understanding is that NOISE cannot be blocked out with a fence. I invested a half a million dollars to have a beautiful Jersey City condo with a quiet back garden and I'm counting on the quiet back garden to be a selling point when I decide to cash in my chips. I've invested a lot of time, money and energy in my property to that end. My young child's bedroom is next to the garden and when neighbors occasionally have loud parties, he can't sleep (he still naps so daytime noise is also a problem which is why he doesn't have the bedroom that faces the street). Having a even somewhat loud cafe next door would dramatically impact my quality of life as well as my property value. If the city wants to keep attracting people to invest in residential real estate, they need to think twice about this one. FWIW, I live on the same block as Prato but not close enough that the cafe would impact me directly. I have been a big fan of their establishment since it opened but I was kind of bewildered how they were able to open in such a residential neighborhood. I hope the city continues to enforce the zoning and not bend the rules on a whim.

Posted on: 2015/7/23 15:58
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Jcdevil, do you not understand how easily noise travels across backyards? Do you understand that anyone can easily see each other when you're in your respective backyards? I enjoy seeing my neighbors when I come outside, i don't want to be looking at strangers while I'm gardening.

And no im not to entitled one, I'm not the one asking for laws to be changed at whim so I can get what I want.

I'm done arguing with you.

Posted on: 2015/7/21 16:12
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Would this whole thing be fine and done with if there were a time limit? Like after 8PM or 9PM the yard can't be used?

What about places like Taqueria, Legal Beans BBQ, or More Sushi that already use their yards?

I'm in favor or letting businesses use their yards but I agree with some of the other people that this shouldn't be rushed through, there needs to be a bit of refinement to make sure peoples' backyards don't turn into all-night every-night party zones.

Posted on: 2015/7/21 14:27
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Quote:

Jcls wrote:

Let's say I get one and then somebody would start crying that we live in a city and they deserve access to that as well.

Because entitled millennials and their "shared economy" don't want to do an honest day's work, but rather "share" the fruits of my hard labor.

Where does it end? I have no objection to sidewalk cafes, but our backyards should be off limits to commercial use.


Your backyard is off-limits to commercial use. Do you not understand that you are exhibiting the exact same type of entitlement that you are deriding?

Posted on: 2015/7/21 14:18
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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JcDevil wrote:

If you want to go outside while being separated from your neighbors enjoying the fresh air at an outdoor cafe, get a penthouse with a large terrace. If you can't afford one, stop whining.


Let's say I get one and then somebody would start crying that we live in a city and they deserve access to that as well.

Because entitled millennials and their "shared economy" don't want to do an honest day's work, but rather "share" the fruits of my hard labor.

Where does it end? I have no objection to sidewalk cafes, but our backyards should be off limits to commercial use.

Posted on: 2015/7/21 1:10
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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BeatrixKiddo wrote:

If you don't want to see douchebags crying because they root for a shitty pathetic hockey team, don't step foot near the Prudential Center when the crybaby Devils play. Lmfao sad


Seems like a whole lot of hurt feelings coming from you because I don't eat a specific brand of crappy fast food owned by a bigot. Weird.

Posted on: 2015/7/20 19:23
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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JcDevil wrote:
[quote]
Jcls wrote:
I don't want to see douchebags sipping coffee and staring at a lap top when I come out to my yard.


Well, then put up a fence, and make sure it isn't mirrored.

[quote]
If you don't want to see douchebags crying because they root for a shitty pathetic hockey team, don't step foot near the Prudential Center when the crybaby Devils play. Lmfao sad

Posted on: 2015/7/20 18:58
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Jcls wrote:
I don't want to see douchebags sipping coffee and staring at a lap top when I come out to my yard.


Well, then put up a fence, and make sure it isn't mirrored.

Quote:

Jcls wrote:
If you want to lounge in a backyard, get your own. If you can't afford one, move to the burbs, I hear they don't come at a premium over there.


If you want to go outside while being separated from your neighbors enjoying the fresh air at an outdoor cafe, get a penthouse with a large terrace. If you can't afford one, stop whining.

Posted on: 2015/7/20 18:08
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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My backyard is my oasis from all "vibrant city life" that now surrounds us. I don't want to see douchebags sipping coffee and staring at a lap top when I come out to my yard.

If you want to lounge in a backyard, get your own. If you can't afford one, move to the burbs, I hear they don't come at a premium over there.

Posted on: 2015/7/20 16:14
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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If any of this is accurate, SHAME on Prato Bakery!!! They are horrible neighbors, so my regular stops their will end.

The larger concern is the impact on anyone who is within earshot of any commercial space, especially those with a backyard that shares any boundary with a commercial space.

So a convenience store or barber shop could become an eating establishment with backyard/sideyard seating without anyone saying a word to the community that surrounds it prior to making the decision? This makes little sense and will negatively impact the quality of life of thousands.

Last, if this passes it immediately increases the value of any commercial property with a side/backyard at the expense of the people that live close to that property.

The OPs wording might be dramatic but this issue is no small concern and is much larger than Prato Bakery.

Posted on: 2015/7/20 12:00
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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EasyGibson wrote:
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squeeg wrote:
If the new ordinance passes it will affect everyone who currently lives near or around a caf?, bakery, restaurant, bodega etc., as it will not only increase foot traffic, but it will allow access for thieves, predators, pedophiles and crowds into our homes through presently off limit rear yard entry points.


The time to act is NOW so if you have any desire to protect your safety, your children?s safety, your pets, your quality of life and your property then you MUST act now!




You do so much damage to your own cause when you say things like this because it makes you sound like an absolute lunatic. Like, an actual crazy person shouting at cars.

The minute someone uses the "think of the children!" argument, anyone with half a brain knows to immediately tune them out because they're generally grasping at straws.

You'd do well to edit your post down to the salient points because there are plenty of them which address real actual issues that make sense and do indeed affect everyone of us that lives in the neighborhood.

Sadly I'm going to guess that if you're the type to suggest cafes lead to pedophiles in your neighborhood, you probably don't have your finger on the pulse of your target audience.

Whatever.


THIS. I have to say that, despite loving Prato so far, this whole matter has left me disappointed. They should have done things the proper way. But, to allow a knee-jerk reaction by the government that will instantly cast aside rules and regulations that have evolved over time, is sheer folly. I actually find myself agreeing with many/most of those opposed to this new regulation, but the OP sure comes across as off his/her rocker. Invoking the specter of pedophiles because of a sidewalk cafe with a backyard definitely makes you sound like a lunatic. You have done a disservice to your cause. Stick to the facts and you could get more people to join you in pushing against this proposed regulation.

Posted on: 2015/7/20 11:23
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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squeeg wrote:
If the new ordinance passes it will affect everyone who currently lives near or around a caf?, bakery, restaurant, bodega etc., as it will not only increase foot traffic, but it will allow access for thieves, predators, pedophiles and crowds into our homes through presently off limit rear yard entry points.


The time to act is NOW so if you have any desire to protect your safety, your children?s safety, your pets, your quality of life and your property then you MUST act now!




You do so much damage to your own cause when you say things like this because it makes you sound like an absolute lunatic. Like, an actual crazy person shouting at cars.

The minute someone uses the "think of the children!" argument, anyone with half a brain knows to immediately tune them out because they're generally grasping at straws.

You'd do well to edit your post down to the salient points because there are plenty of them which address real actual issues that make sense and do indeed affect everyone of us that lives in the neighborhood.

Sadly I'm going to guess that if you're the type to suggest cafes lead to pedophiles in your neighborhood, you probably don't have your finger on the pulse of your target audience.

Whatever.

Posted on: 2015/7/19 20:44
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Dear Neighbors,

The city of Jersey City is attempting to push a new Caf? ordinance through the planning board then rubber stamp it off for a vote and adoption over then next two weeks. The city is counting on you to do nothing; they are expecting you to ignore this. Do not assume that others will speak up for you! Jersey City is OUR city so read below and consider your options.

The language in the new Caf? ordinance proposes to grant additional rights for current and future caf??s, bakeries (like Prato), restaurants, bodega?s etc., to add expanded seating inside their establishments as well as add additional seating to their storefronts and in their rear back yards!

Additionally, this new caf? ordinance will allow for an increase in the amount of ovens, exhaust systems & expanded hours of operation and become a gateway for future liquor licenses. If you are familiar with Hoboken then you will understand how badly this will affect our neighborhoods forever.

If the new ordinance passes it will affect everyone who currently lives near or around a caf?, bakery, restaurant, bodega etc., as it will not only increase foot traffic, but it will allow access for thieves, predators, pedophiles and crowds into our homes through presently off limit rear yard entry points.

The new ordinance is being forcefully pushed through by Mayor Fulop and supported by Councilwomen Osborne as a means to add dollars into city coffers by taxing businesses for this new privilege with few restrictions. I can assure that the smell of fresh bread or easy access to a croissant sounds nice but when the baker moves and a bar moves in you will quickly change your tune?.by then it will be too late!

YOU CANNOT IGNORE THIS CALL TO ACTION! YOU MUST NOT ASSUME IT WILL JUST GO AWAY?IF THE ORDINACE IS PASSED IT WILL CHANGE THE FACE OF OUR NEIGHBORHOODS AND AFFECT YOUR QUALITY OF LIFE, YOUR PROPERTY AND YOUR SAFETY FOREVER!

The time to act is NOW so if you have any desire to protect your safety, your children?s safety, your pets, your quality of life and your property then you MUST act now!

The new Cafe Ordinance is being introduced for public input on July 21st at 5:30pm at 280 Grove Street, 2nd Fl. JC.

Please show up and voice your concerns and objections so Mayor Fulop, Council Women Osborn, Zoning, the Planning Board and the rank and file of JC government hear you loud and clear.

WE CANNOT DO THIS ALONE ? WE NEED YOUR HELP T0 KEEP OUR COMMUNITES AS THEY ARE ? CLEAN, SAFE AND QUITE. KEEP OUR BACK YARDS OFF LIMITS & NUSANCE FREE AND PROTECT THE PEOPLE OF JERSEY CITY WHO WORK HARD AND ENJOY A PEACFUL EXISTANCE.

Please immediately email and/or call Mayor Fulop, Council Women Osborne and Nick Taylor in Zoning to express your displeasure with the proposed new Cafe Ordinance before Tuesday. If you cannot attend the planning board meeting on July 21st then please use the contact information below before it?s too late.

This has absolutely nothing to do with a few tables in a Bakery it has all to do with keeping back yards OFF LIMITS and keeping restrictions intact! Those of you who do not live next to a property that may become a backyard eatery try wearing the hat of someone in JC who does! It's that simple!!!

Mayor Steven Fulop
Email: fulops@jcnj.org
Phone: 201-547-5200

Council woman Osborne
Email: cosborne@jcnj.org
Phone: 201-547-5315

Zoning Officer - Nick Taylor
Email: ntaylor@jcnj.org
Phone: 201-547-4832




Posted on: 2015/7/18 20:28
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Dolomiti wrote:
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tbo wrote:
The ordinance changes the definition of cafes for all of Jersey City and makes the use allowable in ANY retail location.

I understand that -- though the new regulation doesn't seem to be all that much different than the existing ones.

But why would a building that has a zoning for a food shop magically get reclassified as a cafe by this ordinance? Surely they don't intend to allow every deli in JC to operate on a sidewalk.

And I can see how it takes away leverage from a neighbor, but I don't see how zoning laws overrule a legal settlement between a landlord and a neighbor (assuming such an agreement actually exists).


The language of the Ordinance classifies a cafe as a retail use. (not as a restaurant) so I think yes a food shop, shoe store, wine shop can theoretically also serve some food with seating "as-of-right"

The version of the ordinance that was approved by the planning board last May had a cafe classified as small restaurant. (Cat2 restaurant that allows seating) and included restrictions for alcohol and number of seats.

There was a last minute change (last friday and it was added to the council agenda monday morning) to how it reads now. Do they intend to have every store be a cafe? I don't know, but this ordinance would allow it.

And I think a legal agreement may trump the zoning.

Posted on: 2015/7/15 12:24
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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tbo wrote:
The ordinance changes the definition of cafes for all of Jersey City and makes the use allowable in ANY retail location.

I understand that -- though the new regulation doesn't seem to be all that much different than the existing ones.

But why would a building that has a zoning for a food shop magically get reclassified as a cafe by this ordinance? Surely they don't intend to allow every deli in JC to operate on a sidewalk.

And I can see how it takes away leverage from a neighbor, but I don't see how zoning laws overrule a legal settlement between a landlord and a neighbor (assuming such an agreement actually exists).

Posted on: 2015/7/15 11:55
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Dolomiti wrote:
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K-Lo wrote:
New Cafe zoning on the agenda for 10 am tomorrow. Looks like Prato may get its "variance" without doing the work.

OK, I'm missing something here.

How is adding a zoning for cafes supposed to help Prato? Won't the building also need to be rezoned as a cafe? Surely it can't be zoned as a cafe before the zoning exists.

In addition, if reports are correct, Prato can't operate in its backyard not because of zoning, but because of an agreement with a neighbor. Seems to me that a failure by the building owner to abide by that agreement could trigger a lawsuit.


The ordinance changes the definition of cafes for all of Jersey City and makes the use allowable in ANY retail location. It also allows for front and rear yard seating. Agreements with neighbors won't matter as much if you are legally operating under zoning. It makes it so the public no longer has an opportunity to voice an opinion in a zoning hearing as to what happens when the bodega next door turns into a cafe (small restaurant) with a rear yard and a entertainment license. And who knows how liquor licenses and byob's come into play.

Taking away opportunities for the public to speak? Never a good idea.

Way to go Steve. "Making it His"

Posted on: 2015/7/15 11:42
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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K-Lo wrote:
New Cafe zoning on the agenda for 10 am tomorrow. Looks like Prato may get its "variance" without doing the work.

OK, I'm missing something here.

How is adding a zoning for cafes supposed to help Prato? Won't the building also need to be rezoned as a cafe? Surely it can't be zoned as a cafe before the zoning exists.

In addition, if reports are correct, Prato can't operate in its backyard not because of zoning, but because of an agreement with a neighbor. Seems to me that a failure by the building owner to abide by that agreement could trigger a lawsuit.

Posted on: 2015/7/15 1:33
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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New Cafe zoning on the agenda for 10 am tomorrow. Looks like Prato may get its "variance" without doing the work.

Posted on: 2015/7/15 1:17
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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How does one get public liability insurance or any type of insurance if you don't have a permit to operate?

Posted on: 2015/7/14 22:41
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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JcDevil wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:

Just because we live in a city doesn't mean we have to be subjected to unrelenting noise, or give in to any neighbor (individual or business) that wants to be loud.

That stretch of Erie Street is hardly a commercial center. Residents on that type of block have every reason to expect and receive a bit of peace & quiet.


And we're talking about a bakery, not a bar or club. Even if it was a full restaurant, we're not exactly talking about disturbing the peace, here.


yes, we're talking about a bakery. if the owners of Prato wanted to open a restaurant, they could've chosen a spot on Newark Ave.

zoning exists for a reason. the character of a neighborhood shouldn't have to change, just because a business owner decided to ignore the restrictions when he signed the lease.

I'm bummed for Prato, they're great, but they are also the thin edge of the wedge, and I wouldn't want to be next door to a "cafe now, but down the road....what?" storefront.

and enough with the "move to the suburbs" trope. it is beyond tedious.

Posted on: 2015/7/14 21:33
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Dolomiti wrote:

Just because we live in a city doesn't mean we have to be subjected to unrelenting noise, or give in to any neighbor (individual or business) that wants to be loud.

That stretch of Erie Street is hardly a commercial center. Residents on that type of block have every reason to expect and receive a bit of peace & quiet.


And we're talking about a bakery, not a bar or club. Even if it was a full restaurant, we're not exactly talking about disturbing the peace, here.

Posted on: 2015/7/14 20:33
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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I agree with Dolomiti. Respect your neighbors. You want to blast your shit, you move to the suburbs

Posted on: 2015/7/14 20:05
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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JcDevil wrote:
If you want peace and quiet, there's this place called "the suburbs". Urban life involves noise. You deal with it, and move on; or you deal with it by moving on.

Just because we live in a city doesn't mean we have to be subjected to unrelenting noise, or give in to any neighbor (individual or business) that wants to be loud.

That stretch of Erie Street is hardly a commercial center. Residents on that type of block have every reason to expect and receive a bit of peace & quiet.

Posted on: 2015/7/14 19:38
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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I_heart_JC wrote:

today, it's a quiet bakery, with bakery hours. in five years, it could be a restaurant, and suddenly the neighbors are dealing with "indoor" noise and crowds until midnight.

Which is why the neighbors should be attempting to support Prato get a single-instance variance to help them succeed, rather than watch them fail without seating, only to be replaced by something far worse that might bribe their way to getting a permanent zoning change.


Don't know if bribes were involved, but that is exactly what Prato is doing - Creating something far worse with a permanent zoning change for "cafes" that will benefit them, but can lead to much worse situations in other parts of the City (not just historic) Zoning exists for a reason. Did they even attempt to apply for a variance?

Posted on: 2015/7/14 19:30
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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I_heart_JC wrote:

today, it's a quiet bakery, with bakery hours. in five years, it could be a restaurant, and suddenly the neighbors are dealing with "indoor" noise and crowds until midnight. I like Prato a lot, and will continue to get (take-out) lunch from them. but their neighbors were wise to nip this in the bud.


Oh no! Noise until midnight, my stars! How will they ever get up to till the fields in the morning?

If you want peace and quiet, there's this place called "the suburbs". Urban life involves noise. You deal with it, and move on; or you deal with it by moving on.

Posted on: 2015/7/14 18:51
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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I_heart_JC wrote:

today, it's a quiet bakery, with bakery hours. in five years, it could be a restaurant, and suddenly the neighbors are dealing with "indoor" noise and crowds until midnight.

Which is why the neighbors should be attempting to support Prato get a single-instance variance to help them succeed, rather than watch them fail without seating, only to be replaced by something far worse that might bribe their way to getting a permanent zoning change.

Posted on: 2015/7/14 18:33
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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bodhipooh wrote:

The "indoor stuff" was illegal. Why should neighbors have to "deal with it"? They could and should have applied for a variance and gone through the proper channels.


what kind of issues caused by indoor seating are the neighbors dealing with?

Posted on: 2015/7/14 18:16
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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What about our beloved Torico's? Are they zoned as a cafe, take-out, or other? They have indoor and outdoor seating. Just curious...

Posted on: 2015/7/14 17:59
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Re: Please Help Prato Bakery
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Quote:

EasyGibson wrote:

Shame their couldn't be some kind of agreement worked out. Outside seating is one thing and I suppose I could understand the complaint there, but indoors? Come on.


today, it's a quiet bakery, with bakery hours. in five years, it could be a restaurant, and suddenly the neighbors are dealing with "indoor" noise and crowds until midnight. I like Prato a lot, and will continue to get (take-out) lunch from them. but their neighbors were wise to nip this in the bud.

Posted on: 2015/7/14 17:43
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