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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Great teachers are being let go in Newark because a) fewer students are in Newark public schools (due to overwhelming demand by parents for their kids to be in charters) and b) special interest groups (the teachers union) makes sure seniority is the sole metric when deciding which teacher gets downsized in that circumstance.

And it's a deal done between the teachers union and the Democrats in Trenton.


Posted on: 2015/5/28 17:14
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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JCMan8 wrote:
Pebble, your links only provided vague descriptions of where the money was stolen. They say that $20 million were provided to consulting firms, while some foundation claimed it spent $80 million in grants to teachers and increasing access to school options.

Presumably if $500 million was donated instead of $100 million we'd end up with the same result: nothing to show for it and an entrenched Union forcing the highest performing (and younger) teachers out of a job.

The Unions are doing no such thing. They are simply a convenient excuse for those looking to point fingers.

It is quite probable that if $5 billion was donated that it wouldn?t have corrected the problem. This is mostly because the problem is not the teachers, no matter how much people on the right want to blame them?

The links I provided showed how Booker and Christie mismanaged the money. How they dumped it into consulting firms and poor plans. I don?t blame them for trying, but the ideas they had didn?t work. Does that mean that all future ideas are bad? Does that mean we just up and cease funding? I guess if you?re hell-bent on destroying a union then this is what you want, but it really isn?t gaining much.

Somehow the schools in Short Hills and Princeton are doing wonderfully. Do you truly believe that the difference is in the quality of teacher? Or do you recognize that the difference is in the home life?

A former secretary of mine became a teacher in Newark. She stopped by the office to see everyone and she had some ?fun? stories. One of which involved a student that was stabbing himself with a pencil during class. The kid was 8. The teacher called the child?s mother as you would think to be responsible. The response from the mother was one of anger. It wasn?t frustration over how to change her child?s behavior. No, it was anger at the teacher for having the temerity to interrupt her day with this. The parent felt it was the teacher?s responsibility to correct it.

I?m sure the child likely failed. If it wasn?t in that year, it was at some year. This failure then falls on the teacher, as if it was their fault. You, and others on here, bemoan and complain that this teacher is protected by the union when s/he has failures without recognizing the circumstances.

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Yvonne wrote:
While you claim I know nothing, I have yet seen you at a school board meeting, it is mostly parents and teachers, the same familiar faces. Then again, it must be nice to hide behind a phony name attacking people, Pebble.

There are quite a few on this forum and a few in this thread that know me, my name, where I live, etc. I?m hardly anonymous. Were we to ever meet, I?d have no qualms in stating the exact same things.

Posted on: 2015/5/28 16:56
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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While you claim I know nothing, I have yet seen you at a school board meeting, it is mostly parents and teachers, the same familiar faces. Then again, it must be nice to hide behind a phony name attacking people, Pebble.

Posted on: 2015/5/28 15:51
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Pebble, your links only provided vague descriptions of where the money was stolen. They say that $20 million were provided to consulting firms, while some foundation claimed it spent $80 million in grants to teachers and increasing access to school options.

Presumably if $500 million was donated instead of $100 million we'd end up with the same result: nothing to show for it and an entrenched Union forcing the highest performing (and younger) teachers out of a job.

Posted on: 2015/5/28 15:46
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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JCMan8 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Meanwhile, over in Newark, the Democrats in the Legislature and their union supporters will be screwing the kids again . . .

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2 ... _the_de.html#incart_river

Keeping up the cost of running the schools, while ensuring the kids don't have the best teachers? Of course!


Like I said, didn't Zuckerberg donate $100 million to Newark's schools? Or if he pledged to match that, I'm assuming that a substantial amount was matched, leading to hundreds of millions being donated to Newark schools.

And now there isn't enough money to pay their highest performing teachers? Can someone say criminal corruption?

Try reading the link I posted and you'll know what happened to the money.

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Yvonne wrote:
I know every minute he spoke cost taxpayers $300.00, it was ten minute speech. If you spend $3,000 on this nonsense how much more are you spending on non-important things, while students need books?

I'll summarize this for you: You know nothing but are going to continue harping on something you have very little knowledge of because what little you think you know doesn't seem right.

Posted on: 2015/5/28 15:29
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Monroe wrote:
Meanwhile, over in Newark, the Democrats in the Legislature and their union supporters will be screwing the kids again . . .

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2 ... _the_de.html#incart_river

Keeping up the cost of running the schools, while ensuring the kids don't have the best teachers? Of course!


Like I said, didn't Zuckerberg donate $100 million to Newark's schools? Or if he pledged to match that, I'm assuming that a substantial amount was matched, leading to hundreds of millions being donated to Newark schools.

And now there isn't enough money to pay their highest performing teachers? Can someone say criminal corruption?

Posted on: 2015/5/28 14:51
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Meanwhile, over in Newark, the Democrats in the Legislature and their union supporters will be screwing the kids again . . .

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2 ... _the_de.html#incart_river

Keeping up the cost of running the schools, while ensuring the kids don't have the best teachers? Of course!

Posted on: 2015/5/28 12:01
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Monroe wrote:
My oft repeated '25% above the state average' is to point out that, yes, the state is fulfilling its role as required by Abbott. Add to that the funded lunches, pre-school, and other costs JC schools get everything they need. I put most of it on uninvolved parents, and no amount of money can solve that.


Who's constantly accusing the state of underfunding that you're saying it over and over again? I must have missed that. Mostly I hear you saying JC should pay it's own way and leave suburbanites like you out of their problems.


Nope, I just oppose giving more money to JC schools than currently they receive and expect JC taxpayers to fund any rise in support that they desire.

Posted on: 2015/5/28 10:44
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Monroe wrote:
My oft repeated '25% above the state average' is to point out that, yes, the state is fulfilling its role as required by Abbott. Add to that the funded lunches, pre-school, and other costs JC schools get everything they need. I put most of it on uninvolved parents, and no amount of money can solve that.


Who's constantly accusing the state of underfunding that you're saying it over and over again? I must have missed that. Mostly I hear you saying JC should pay it's own way and leave suburbanites like you out of their problems.

Posted on: 2015/5/28 3:23
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Pebble wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
No one is worth $3,000 when you cannot buy basic supplies for a school. This is one of the reasons the state took over the school system in the first place: spending money outside of the classroom. I was around when the state said this, Pebble.

It is quite obvious that you don't really know anything. You cannot state a single thing about the speaker's purpose, topic, expertise, etc.

Your statements on "cannot buy basic supplies" is also deliberately opaque. What are these "basic supplies" that the school is missing? How much are missing? which school is missing them? What purpose do they serve?

If you'd like to make claims and accusations, it would be nice if you provided actual information with your broad claims...


I know every minute he spoke cost taxpayers $300.00, it was ten minute speech. If you spend $3,000 on this nonsense how much more are you spending on non-important things, while students need books?

Posted on: 2015/5/28 1:14
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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My oft repeated '25% above the state average' is to point out that, yes, the state is fulfilling its role as required by Abbott. Add to that the funded lunches, pre-school, and other costs JC schools get everything they need. I put most of it on uninvolved parents, and no amount of money can solve that.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 22:51
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Pebble wrote:
Are charters successful because they can banish away the problem children or are they successful because their curriculum is that much better? They function as private schools in this manner.


To my knowledge charters can't "banish" kids who are having problems any more than a regular public school. There have been a number of problem kids in my childrens classes.

Monroe, you repeat the "25% more than state average", so I repeat, is that not due to the much higher demographic of ESL and, as you put it, "classified" students, rather than overall higher spending per regular students? These students can each cost several time what a non-special needs student does.

Unfortunately mucking out that data is above my skills. I once took a look at the "civilian friendly" version of the JC schools budget, and it was absolutely impenetrable. There were terms used that yielded no hits in google when I tried to define them.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 22:41
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Yvonne wrote:
No one is worth $3,000 when you cannot buy basic supplies for a school. This is one of the reasons the state took over the school system in the first place: spending money outside of the classroom. I was around when the state said this, Pebble.

It is quite obvious that you don't really know anything. You cannot state a single thing about the speaker's purpose, topic, expertise, etc.

Your statements on "cannot buy basic supplies" is also deliberately opaque. What are these "basic supplies" that the school is missing? How much are missing? which school is missing them? What purpose do they serve?

If you'd like to make claims and accusations, it would be nice if you provided actual information with your broad claims...

Posted on: 2015/5/27 19:22
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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brewster wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Wrong again. I recognize that some districts need supplemental help, but I also expect JC taxpayers to understand that their is a limit to how far their hands can reach into others pockets, especially when the results of the existing largesse have been piss poor.


You keep tap dancing around the basic options of your position. Why don't you clearly state how much JC should spend per student. or what % it should get from the state? You whine a lot but slime out when it's time to actually deal with the reality.

Here's the choices:

1- JC cuts spending to a fraction of it's current budget so as to not to tax suburbanites like you.

2- It raises taxes to the level of economic suicide.

You clearly don't give a crap about the results, only the money, so there's no option 3 of JC's system educating it's kids effectively.



1-They shouldn't spend a penny more than they do now, which is about 25% more per student than the state average.

2-Since JC currently contributes only 16% of the cost of educating its own students, even a 10% rise in local support won't be much per owner, since it's such a small percentage to begin with. Fulop could fund over the, what, 34 million he didn't return to overcharged water users for a start.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 19:19
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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No one is worth $3,000 when you cannot buy basic supplies for a school. This is one of the reasons the state took over the school system in the first place: spending money outside of the classroom. I was around when the state said this, Pebble.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 19:12
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Pebble wrote:
I don?t disagree with those that say charter schools shouldn?t be dipping into the state budget. These schools are essentially private.


How can you call a school with admissions by public lottery "essentially private"? Exclusion is the defining characteristic of private school. Charters are public schools freed from the bureaucracy to experiment with different curriculum and structures. When the system is failing, rejecting innovation seems insane. But I don't believe charters are a general solution, they are laboratories. Chains of cloned charters should not be the goal. Cloning successful charter models within the system should.

Are charters successful because they can banish away the problem children or are they successful because their curriculum is that much better? They function as private schools in this manner.

?The system? is not failing. This is a false dilemma argued because failed homes result in failed children. The blame has shifted away from those responsible for reinforcing values to those in charge for minimal hours.

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Yvonne wrote:
Spending $3,000 on a speaker is excessive, Peddle, especially when teachers speak before the board to ask for basic supplies: books, working copying machines, etc. There are no marching bands because the board has not purchased equipment. The schools are reducing the sports programs to certain schools to save money. The one thing any inner city school needs is a music and sport programs.

You have provided absolutely no information on the public speaker. This tells me that you have absolutely no knowledge of what the speaker?s purpose was. So, no, I?m not going to take your word for it regarding the price.

As for music and sports, $3,000 won?t fund a marching band for a month, let alone a year.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
The teacher asked for the copier because there was no books. She went on-line to get copies of information to distribute to the class. This teacher used her own computer because the schools' computers were not working. Basically, she was using her own money at Staples. Yes, there is a place for kindles but nothing can replace a textbook.

All teachers spend their own money at Staples. It has been this way for decades. I?m not saying this is correct, but it?s not something new.

As for the computer issue, you fail to provide any context. What was she using the computer for? Why were the school computers down? What were they needed for? What was ?down? (a nebulous term that means absolutely nothing)?

Posted on: 2015/5/27 18:45
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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The teacher asked for the copier because there was no books. She went on-line to get copies of information to distribute to the class. This teacher used her own computer because the schools' computers were not working. Basically, she was using her own money at Staples. Yes, there is a place for kindles but nothing can replace a textbook.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 17:28
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Monroe wrote:
Wrong again. I recognize that some districts need supplemental help, but I also expect JC taxpayers to understand that their is a limit to how far their hands can reach into others pockets, especially when the results of the existing largesse have been piss poor.


You keep tap dancing around the basic options of your position. Why don't you clearly state how much JC should spend per student. or what % it should get from the state? You whine a lot but slime out when it's time to actually deal with the reality.

Here's the choices:

1- JC cuts spending to a fraction of it's current budget so as to not to tax suburbanites like you.

2- It raises taxes to the level of economic suicide.

You clearly don't give a crap about the results, only the money, so there's no option 3 of JC's system educating it's kids effectively.


Posted on: 2015/5/27 17:13
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Yvonne wrote:
Spending $3,000 on a speaker is excessive, Peddle, especially when teachers speak before the board to ask for basic supplies: books, working copying machines, etc. There are no marching bands because the board has not purchased equipment. The schools are reducing the sports programs to certain schools to save money. The one thing any inner city school needs is a music and sport programs.


Books and copiers? We should be using Kindles and Whispercast.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1000412651

Posted on: 2015/5/27 17:06
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Spending $3,000 on a speaker is excessive, Peddle, especially when teachers speak before the board to ask for basic supplies: books, working copying machines, etc. There are no marching bands because the board has not purchased equipment. The schools are reducing the sports programs to certain schools to save money. The one thing any inner city school needs is a music and sport programs.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 16:53
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Wrong again. I recognize that some districts need supplemental help, but I also expect JC taxpayers to understand that there is a limit to how far their hands can reach into others pockets, especially when the results of the existing largesse have been piss poor.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 16:53
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Pebble wrote:
I don?t disagree with those that say charter schools shouldn?t be dipping into the state budget. These schools are essentially private.


How can you call a school with admissions by public lottery "essentially private"? Exclusion is the defining characteristic of private school. Charters are public schools freed from the bureaucracy to experiment with different curriculum and structures. When the system is failing, rejecting innovation seems insane. But I don't believe charters are a general solution, they are laboratories. Chains of cloned charters should not be the goal. Cloning successful charter models within the system should.

Quote:

Monroe wrote:
You have two towns, both with 20,000 residents. One town is more affluent, with homes averaging 750K. The other has homes averaging 500K. Both have the same number of students, teachers, schools, etc. School costs are similar. Of course the town with the less valuable homes will be paying a higher percentage of their home value.

This is exactly what I said your position was. I've been reading your constantly stated opinion on JC school spending since you joined, I know exactly where you stand.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 16:27
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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I don?t disagree with those that say charter schools shouldn?t be dipping into the state budget. These schools are essentially private.

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Yvonne wrote:
I have attended a recent board of ed meeting. Each meeting have books that are twice the size of the old phone books filled with contracts. Some are probably necessary but others are questionable. Here is an example. We paid someone $3,000 to speak for ten minutes. I asked about that spending but the board responds to questions at the end of the meeting. I had to leave so I guess I will have to wait for the answer on Channel 1.

Not for nothing, but saying that they spent money on a speaker isn?t necessarily a bad thing. You don?t know how long that person was there, what their expertise is, what the topic was, how many schools they covered, how many students they talked to, what their travel expenses were? I?m sorry, but simply complaining about someone being paid to speak based on no knowledge of the details is absurd. Additionally, expenses, such as speakers, are part of just about every business. People bring in outside individuals to talk in order to reinforce a specific point.

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dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
...
As far as the 'pay the students and parents' I'd almost agree, but deliver the money from existing state funding levels, and make the money available to graduates who finish with good grades-and use the money towards college. Carrot on a stick type reward!


Personally - I'd be happy to see school funding initially increased by the 10% or so to cover the cost. What it might do is highlight the wasted spend in other areas - and I'd include charter schools, common core, Abbott, and jail in that. We're currently throwing a lot of money at the problem everywhere - except to those who might actually benefit from it.

If you think that ?waste? would be highlighted or removed if funding was dropped, you?ve no idea what exists.

I have a cousin that teaches and I?ve had plenty of conversations on this topic with him. The vast majority of money goes into the spending of superintendents. The likelihood that they are going to give up their jobs is nil. The school had a bookkeeper that tried ?trimming the fat? and went about doing so by purchasing paper on the cheap (classrooms received legal paper since it was on sale) instead of standard sized. Kids walked around with pages that couldn?t fit in their binders.

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JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
...
As far as the 'pay the students and parents' I'd almost agree, but deliver the money from existing state funding levels, and make the money available to graduates who finish with good grades-and use the money towards college. Carrot on a stick type reward!


Personally - I'd be happy to see school funding initially increased by the 10% or so to cover the cost. What it might do is highlight the wasted spend in other areas - and I'd include charter schools, common core, Abbott, and jail in that. We're currently throwing a lot of money at the problem everywhere - except to those who might actually benefit from it.


I never thought you'd say anything I agree with but I like your idea of paying kids only if they graduate. However, there is absolutely no need to see school funding rise one penny.

There's so much administrative bloat it's ridiculous. People may not be aware, as the national media barely discussed it, but Mark Zuckerberg donated $100,000,000 to Newark's public school system and has NOTHING to show for it. The tremendously bloated and inefficient system gobbled it up, without kids receiving any benefits.

I know you're thinking this will be different because the money will go directly to the kids, but the money is already there.

It?s very funny to read someone complain that media doesn?t cover something when there were huge amounts of articles written about Zuckerberg?s donation. If you don?t recall, the only reason he made the donation was because of the movie that pretty much portrayed him as a complete tool.

As for the donation itself, it wasn?t spent where you think (hey look, there are articles from the media on the topic!!!)
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101701887
http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-z ... bergs-newark-grant-2014-5
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/201 ... /schooled?currentPage=all

The other reality is that Zuckerberg didn?t actually donate $100 million. He allocated the money and then when Newark could find a matching donor, Zuckerberg would release that money. So if Newark gets about $10,000 from another source, Zuckerberg will also release $10,000. Newark never saw the full amount of Zuckerberg?s donation.


Posted on: 2015/5/27 15:42
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Monroe wrote:
...
As far as the 'pay the students and parents' I'd almost agree, but deliver the money from existing state funding levels, and make the money available to graduates who finish with good grades-and use the money towards college. Carrot on a stick type reward!


Personally - I'd be happy to see school funding initially increased by the 10% or so to cover the cost. What it might do is highlight the wasted spend in other areas - and I'd include charter schools, common core, Abbott, and jail in that. We're currently throwing a lot of money at the problem everywhere - except to those who might actually benefit from it.


I never thought you'd say anything I agree with but I like your idea of paying kids only if they graduate. However, there is absolutely no need to see school funding rise one penny.

There's so much administrative bloat it's ridiculous. People may not be aware, as the national media barely discussed it, but Mark Zuckerberg donated $100,000,000 to Newark's public school system and has NOTHING to show for it. The tremendously bloated and inefficient system gobbled it up, without kids receiving any benefits.

I know you're thinking this will be different because the money will go directly to the kids, but the money is already there.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 14:53
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:
I believe somebody posted this link on another topic - http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/cities ... ns-really-pay-taxes-2015/ - but it's useful again here as a reference point. Jersey City does not have the highest overall % of incoming going towards taxes, rather we rank 15th out of the top 100 cities in the US. Our real-estate taxes are quite high, as a %, though.

I would curious if anyone can provide a link to comparable data on what various municipalities spend on schools.


Here you go, and it breaks down by % local support, state support (ie other taxpayers), and Federal support.

http://www.state.nj.us/education/guide/2013/

Thanks. I realize reducing the data to one metric - spending as a % of tax revenue - is probably over-simplifying things, but any suggestions for finding a quick summary is also appreciated!

Posted on: 2015/5/27 14:32
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Yvonne, I'm that would be easy enough to find out. Do you have any reason to believe that Rutgers, Montclair State and NJCU are accepting high school students from non-accredited schools? You do know that all charter school teachers are state-certified by law, right?

Posted on: 2015/5/27 13:10
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Yvonne, have you found any of the same issues with accreditation of charter schools in New Jersey?


I do not know if there is an accreditation problem with charter schools. I know Catholic schools always seek state accreditation. We are giving charter schools $53 million from the local budget, now I want to know if they have accrediation.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 12:55
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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Yvonne, have you found any of the same issues with accreditation of charter schools in New Jersey?

Posted on: 2015/5/27 12:48
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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I have attended a recent board of ed meeting. Each meeting have books that are twice the size of the old phone books filled with contracts. Some are probably necessary but others are questionable. Here is an example. We paid someone $3,000 to speak for ten minutes. I asked about that spending but the board responds to questions at the end of the meeting. I had to leave so I guess I will have to wait for the answer on Channel 1.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 12:38
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Re: Ellen Simon: Equitable funding formula for charter schools would be ‘devastating’ to district
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
...
As far as the 'pay the students and parents' I'd almost agree, but deliver the money from existing state funding levels, and make the money available to graduates who finish with good grades-and use the money towards college. Carrot on a stick type reward!


Personally - I'd be happy to see school funding initially increased by the 10% or so to cover the cost. What it might do is highlight the wasted spend in other areas - and I'd include charter schools, common core, Abbott, and jail in that. We're currently throwing a lot of money at the problem everywhere - except to those who might actually benefit from it.


If the savings to fund this come from the existing budget I'd support it. If the state taxpayers have to pay this for Newark, JC, Camden, Atlantic City, East Orange and all the other Abbott schools-no.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 11:42
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