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Re: UBER - car service in Jersey City
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anonymess wrote:
I firmly believe that most drivers are content even with the drawbacks.

Two different questions: if you mean "content" in the sense they want nothing else - that may not be true. If you mean "content" in the sense that they chose Uber over running their own business or be employed by a cab company - then yes, true. But it's true not because they say so, but because they do so.

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anonymess wrote:
However, Uber really should change the tipping philosophy

Why? There are two ways to pay someone:
- either an employer pays the whole sum specified in advance
- or an employer pays some very basic money and then you rely on the tips from customers.

One way is not objectively better than another. I have heard many a sentiment like "US restaurants should stop using tip-based schema and pay their servers in full". Now you advocate the opposite, that Uber should switch to the tip-based compensation. Do you truly believe that drivers and/or passengers will welcome that change?

If drivers choose Uber over cab company, and passengers choose Uber over cab company, why would Uber owners ever want to turn Uber into a cab company?

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anonymess wrote:
The only times I haven't tipped is when the surge is 1.5 or higher. In many respects, I think the surge is a ripoff even though it benefits the driver.

It benefits everyone. When we have a situation with 100 passengers and only 50 cars we can't supply a car for everyone. When we raise the price, those who need cars the most agree to pay more, and they are getting those cars. Also, the higher price lures more drivers out, increasing the supply. So, it's good for everyone.

Price caps, and the war against "price gouging" is the sure way to create deficit. Once that happens, the goods move onto the "black market" with the end result that instead of the profits going to those who produce, they go to those who was the first in line to grab the goods, with no benefits to the consumers.

Posted on: 2015/5/6 13:10
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Re: UBER - car service in Jersey City
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Drivers generally are not going to complain to their customers. Cutomers, particularly uber customers who take on a bizarre evangelical attitude to the company, are not interested in how their use of the product affects the driver. I work with black car drivers, and they often switch to uber or similar services because they have made a huge investment in an asset that depreciates rapidly, find that work is harder to come by, need to scrounge for the few jobs available, and then find themselves out of work if they raise any issue as to whether uber is honoring the agreement, or if they speak up to get a better deal.

Posted on: 2015/5/6 12:50
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Re: UBER - car service in Jersey City
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However, Uber really should change the tipping philosophy and include a page on the phone app to leave a tip like Lyft. I almost always tip but find that many drivers are surprised by this and don't expect it. Some even refuse it. However, I find it wrong that I pay $8 to one of the gross white cabs at Grove St. while the Uber fare is just over $5 (to drive me home from the PATH).


If you are paying with Amex, you can set up your payment method to tip 20% or what ever you like for each Uber ride.

Posted on: 2015/5/6 11:28
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I find the Uber/Lyft/whatever model fascinating, probably cuz I used to drive a yellow cab eons ago.

I have seen the gripes of drivers on various forums. Most of the gripes center around tips, but some of the items mentioned here are also a source of contention, i.e., black cars forced to pick up UberX customers.

However, in my 200 or so Uber rides, I never heard a complaint from a driver, including black car drivers when I pay UberX prices. More than one has said that it's better than having no fare. I normally engage the drivers in conversation because, like I said, the whole idea of Uber fascinates me. While some drivers may be paranoid they're talking to a "snitch," and others may be too new to have formed an educated opinion, I firmly believe that most drivers are content even with the drawbacks.

However, Uber really should change the tipping philosophy and include a page on the phone app to leave a tip like Lyft. I almost always tip but find that many drivers are surprised by this and don't expect it. Some even refuse it. However, I find it wrong that I pay $8 to one of the gross white cabs at Grove St. while the Uber fare is just over $5 (to drive me home from the PATH).

The only times I haven't tipped is when the surge is 1.5 or higher. In many respects, I think the surge is a ripoff even though it benefits the driver.

JPhurst, you seem adamant that the drivers are getting shafted and unhappy. Yet I haven't seen any statistics. So, I'll trust my judgment over unsubstantiated statements.

Getting back to subject, what happened with the vote last week? Did it take place?

Posted on: 2015/5/6 9:50
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For history buffs, unions brought you the weekend, the 40 hour work week, overtime, decent wages, and healthcare.


Sorry pal, but I'm a Jew and I have some very different notion of who brought me the weekend. Also, my work week is at least 50 hours, I get no overtime and I am pretty sure that it's the major reason why my wages are somewhat higher than "decent".

As for the healthcare you make two mistakes, not just one. First, you are equating healthcare with employer-supplied health insurance. Like, we have an inexpensive cafeteria in the office but it doesn't mean I can't get food elsewhere. Second, employer-provided healthcare was created as a side-effect of the stupid tax code that allowed employers but not employees to write off health insurance as business expense. So, we made a step backwards from money-based economy to the barter-based where people were paid by goods.

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Unions cannot lock the market in the U.S. because the closed shop is illegal.


Yeah, but except in some states with "Right to Work" laws, unions can force the new employees to join the union or to force them to pay the union dues.

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JPhurst wrote:
My point is that Uber treats its drivers poorly.


And our point that was explained by many people in many ways already is that there is no such thing as objectively bad treatment. It's all subjective. If a driver chooses to work with Uber, it means one thing only - Uber treats him, in HIS opinion, better than any other alternative. That's it.

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JPhurst wrote:
I prefer not to patronize businesses that treat their workers poorly simply because it comes on a cool looking app. Nor do I rush to bend or lessen regulations to make it easier to do so.


Sure, your call. By the way, Can we take a look at your scale of how much business should pay to different kinds of workers in order for you to patronize that business? Like what is your minimal wage for a cashier in a supermarket? How about waiter in a restaurant? How much should they pay for you to agree to patronize them?

Posted on: 2015/5/6 4:28
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Re: UBER - car service in Jersey City
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The problems are not limited to UBER. The black car/taxicab industry is one of the sleaziest around. Uber is particularly bad in the way it treats employees, not to mention people like journalists who write critically of the company.

Whether drivers are "employees" or "contractors" is a tough question, and there are court decisions both ways.

As for unions, there are very few. There is, however, the Taxi Workers Alliance, which is the one "union" of independent contractors in the AFL-CIO. They can organize collectively in part because the taxi industry is significantly regulated, and advocacy in such industry does not implicate antitrust concerns.

And no, despite the rantings of borisp and others, the advocacy of Taxi Workers Alliance is not simply rent seeking. They often advocate for less regulation from the TLC. Is it self serving? Sure. No more than Uber's self-serving advocacy to exempt themselves from the law. It's also fair to say that organizations like Taxi Workers Alliance are not exactly trying to exclude non-white drivers. Take a look at the composition of cab drivers and you see how silly it is to play the race card to oppose workers organizing.

It's not like people couldn't get a ride before Uber. You don't have street hails like you do in Manhattan but one could always call a car service. Believe it or not I was able to get to places like the airport at odd hours just a few years ago, before Uber came online.

Lots of regulations of drivers may be made irrelevant by the "sharing economy." I'm just not eager to eliminate everything to accommodate Uber, even if it is easier to press a button rather than dial a number to get a ride home.

Posted on: 2015/5/6 4:14
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I prefer not to patronize businesses that treat their workers poorly simply because it comes on a cool looking app. Nor do I rush to bend or lessen regulations to make it easier to do so.


That's your choice... don't deny me my choice. It's not the cool looking app that makes me like Uber, it's being able to get a ride somewhere in Jersey City when there are NO cabs to be found. Do I have to suffer and wait who knows how long for some cab to magically show up because you have a problem with how Uber or Lyft operates?

Furthermore, since when are the regular taxis or professional car services unionized? As far as I know, each taxicab driver is self-employed too.

Posted on: 2015/5/6 4:01
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For history buffs, unions brought you the weekend, the 40 hour work week, overtime, decent wages, and healthcare.

Unions cannot lock the market in the U.S. because the closed shop is illegal.

My point is that Uber treats its drivers poorly. They don't lock them into ten year contracts. But they sign them to adhesion contracts. They were forcing Uber Black drivers, who invested tens of thousands in buying and maintaining top of the line cars, to pick up Uber X fares, and throwing them out of the system if they declined the jobs. They don't allow tips on the app. They make deductions that would be unlawful under the labor law if the drivers were classified as employees. They engage in predatory tactics like making and then cancelling reservations for competitors, causing other drivers to lose fares and time. They throw drivers out of the system if some douchebag gives a spiteful review. They require drivers to waive their right to go to court to challenge any breaches of the contract and require them to pay for an expensive arbitration. And so on and so on.

I prefer not to patronize businesses that treat their workers poorly simply because it comes on a cool looking app. Nor do I rush to bend or lessen regulations to make it easier to do so.

Posted on: 2015/5/6 3:53
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We are diverting FAR off topic, mainly because of Frank's neat rhetorical trick of shifting the goalposts. The discussion centered around NJ's apparent proposed banning of Uber in the state.

NOT Uber's business practices as a whole, as applied around the country and the world.

It is a simple issue. Do you support the proposed NJ laws discussed in the article posted earlier (and reposted below)? Uber claims their passage would completely drive them from the state. Since the laws would apply equally, if this is true then Lyft would be completely banned as well.

I'm not so sure we should take their word at face value, but that is the concrete issue we are facing.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... _regulation_uber_tak.html

Posted on: 2015/5/6 2:45
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Quote:

JPhurst wrote:
Lots of people work for jobs that they don't like. Lots of bosses treat their workers poorly. Uber bullies its drivers because they can and they use the loophole of "independent contractors" to shift costs onto the driver, as well as avoid complying with labor standards.



Lots of people do, but Uber really isn't a job, it's more like an independent distributorship or franchise, except nobody is locked into a 10-year contract or anything. These people who drive for Uber have the option to quit anytime they want or drive fewer hours, or even work for another app-based service like Lyft or Gett. I'm sure there are plenty of dissatisfied Uber drivers, but none of them are forced to stay with Uber, and they can work as little or as much as they want.

I'm also sure there are plenty of disgruntled taxicab and limo drivers who don't like the dispatch company they get their fares from either. What is your point here?


You can also add that whatever bad things they say about Uber, there are many people who find those conditions attractive and are willing to work with Uber. This is why the drivers don't have "leverage" - it's because many other people would gladly take their place.

Which is why JPhurst laments lack of unionization. For the union would allow current drivers to lock the market, and prevent other drivers from entering it.

By the way, here is for the history buffs: when the first significant unions were created in the USA, "National Labor Union" and "Order of the Knights of St. Crispin", their main theme was pure racism - they sought to exclude Chinese workers from competition.

Posted on: 2015/5/6 2:12
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JPhurst wrote:
Lots of people work for jobs that they don't like. Lots of bosses treat their workers poorly. Uber bullies its drivers because they can and they use the loophole of "independent contractors" to shift costs onto the driver, as well as avoid complying with labor standards.



Lots of people do, but Uber really isn't a job, it's more like an independent distributorship or franchise, except nobody is locked into a 10-year contract or anything. These people who drive for Uber have the option to quit anytime they want or drive fewer hours, or even work for another app-based service like Lyft or Gett. I'm sure there are plenty of dissatisfied Uber drivers, but none of them are forced to stay with Uber, and they can work as little or as much as they want.

I'm also sure there are plenty of disgruntled taxicab and limo drivers who don't like the dispatch company they get their fares from either. What is your point here?

Posted on: 2015/5/6 1:39
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Lots of people work for jobs that they don't like. Lots of bosses treat their workers poorly. Uber bullies its drivers because they can and they use the loophole of "independent contractors" to shift costs onto the driver, as well as avoid complying with labor standards.

There are many Uber workers trying to form a driver's network so they have better leverage. The problem is that independent contractors cannot unionize, so there is little legal protection if Uber punishes someone for speaking out. On top of that, there are potential antitrust issues if independent contractors try to work together to better themselves.

Posted on: 2015/5/6 1:34
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All of those articles can be boiled down to sour grapes who gambled on a pipe dream and are now upset it didn't pan out to the rosiest of estimates.

So, a bunch of UberSUV and UberBLACK drivers CHOSE to accept UberX rides and are now complaining that the fares are lower... guys who went out and bought (or, leased) new vehicles and are now complaining they have to drive a lot to make enough money to pay off their cars. All I hear is a lot of whining...

Posted on: 2015/5/5 15:33
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Posted on: 2015/5/5 14:22
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I know many who do.


C'mon, this is what gives jclist it's reputation for stating "facts." Many people quit every job in every walk of life. Statistics might back up whatever theory is trying to be portrayed, like 45% of Uber drivers quit within 6 months compared to 15% of the labor force, fictitious numbers off the top of my head. However, no statistics were cited.

People have said it before... there's a service that people are (mostly) happy to provide and that the public is (mostly) happy with. No one is getting hurt like in drug trafficking or prostitution (arguably). So, what's the beef?

Posted on: 2015/5/5 10:27
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caj11 wrote: Quote:
JPhurst wrote: Quote:
borisp wrote: Quote:
JPhurst wrote: Quote:
JcDevil wrote:

The entire "exploited workforce" argument, too, relies on a workforce too desperate to have another choice. Insane, then, to apply it to Uber drivers when you realize... these people have capital assets worth in excess of $25,000!  I can't remember the last time I got picked up in an UberX and it wasn't a in newer model full-size sedan or luxury crossover or SUV.  Sure, they may be financed, but the idea that Uber drivers are an exploited workforce just doesn't hold up to the reality.

Many of them would disagree with that.
Amazing how you claim that many of them would disagree, when we know for a fact that none of them actually does! And we do know it, because those who disagree would not work for Uber.
I know many who do.
So why don't they quit if it's not such a great company to work for?
I would put it differently: why don't they quit if they can start their own company using their cars and work for themselves without being exploited? Could it be because working for Uber gives them some benefits that exceed in value the downside of being "exploited"?

Posted on: 2015/5/5 5:00
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borisp wrote: Quote:
JPhurst wrote: Quote:
JcDevil wrote:

The entire "exploited workforce" argument, too, relies on a workforce too desperate to have another choice. Insane, then, to apply it to Uber drivers when you realize... these people have capital assets worth in excess of $25,000!  I can't remember the last time I got picked up in an UberX and it wasn't a in newer model full-size sedan or luxury crossover or SUV.  Sure, they may be financed, but the idea that Uber drivers are an exploited workforce just doesn't hold up to the reality.

Many of them would disagree with that.
Amazing how you claim that many of them would disagree, when we know for a fact that none of them actually does! And we do know it, because those who disagree would not work for Uber.
I know many who do.
So why don't they quit if it's not such a great company to work for?

Posted on: 2015/5/5 3:15
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The entire "exploited workforce" argument, too, relies on a workforce too desperate to have another choice. Insane, then, to apply it to Uber drivers when you realize... these people have capital assets worth in excess of $25,000!  I can't remember the last time I got picked up in an UberX and it wasn't a in newer model full-size sedan or luxury crossover or SUV.  Sure, they may be financed, but the idea that Uber drivers are an exploited workforce just doesn't hold up to the reality.

Many of them would disagree with that.
Amazing how you claim that many of them would disagree, when we know for a fact that none of them actually does! And we do know it, because those who disagree would not work for Uber.
I know many who do.

Posted on: 2015/5/5 2:14
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bill wrote:
...

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I could use a knocker-up. And there are still milkmen as well as seltzer delivery guys. Ah, the good old days. But seriously, do you hear fluffers crying because viagra was invented?


Nah, viagra didn't really force the fluffers out of work... the internet just made it a lot harder for the established porn industry to make the kind of money it used to make, so when sales at "big time" places like Vivid Video and Wicked Pictures suffered, they had to cut costs, and fluffers were the first thing to go. Of course, this is another example of the technological progress shaking up the business model of an established industry.

Posted on: 2015/5/3 3:25
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Quote:

bill wrote:
...

Knocker-up
Bowling alley pinsetter
Switchboard operator
Milkman
Lamplighter
Ice Cutter


I could use a knocker-up. And there are still milkmen as well as seltzer delivery guys. Ah, the good old days. But seriously, do you hear fluffers crying because viagra was invented?


Nah, viagra didn't really force the fluffers out of work... the internet just made it a lot harder for the established porn industry to make the kind of money it used to make, so when sales at "big time" places like Vivid Video and Wicked Pictures suffered, they had to cut costs, and fluffers were the first thing to go. Of course, this is another example of technological process forcing an established industry to change its business model.

Posted on: 2015/5/3 3:24
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...

Knocker-up
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Switchboard operator
Milkman
Lamplighter
Ice Cutter


I could use a knocker-up. And there are still milkmen as well as seltzer delivery guys. Ah, the good old days. But seriously, do you hear fluffers crying because viagra was invented?

Posted on: 2015/5/3 1:48
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Seriously, this is just progress. People employed in the taxi business will just need to adapt. Nobody cried for me when electronic exchanges destroyed the edge floor traders had.

Imagine how backwards society would be if we protected these obsolete jobs.

Knocker-up
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Switchboard operator
Milkman
Lamplighter
Ice Cutter



Not to mention that the Economist magazine has also indicated that if every job lost as a result of technological progress was a permanent job loss, and if every person who lost their jobs were unemployable for the rest of their lives, there would be 95% unemployment in the United States. Clearly that's not the case.

I'm not wanting the taxi service in Jersey City, or anywhere else to be forced out of business anyway, no matter how shitty it may be. I just want to be able to get a ride when I need one and not have to wait around in the rain or call dispatch numbers where no one ever picks up the phone. I've posed this question a thousand times now - why should I have to suffer like that? No one in the anti-Uber/ anti-app based service camp ever seem to want to answer that question.

Posted on: 2015/5/3 1:24
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Seriously, this is just progress. People employed in the taxi business will just need to adapt. Nobody cried for me when electronic exchanges destroyed the edge floor traders had.

Imagine how backwards society would be if we protected these obsolete jobs.

Knocker-up
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Switchboard operator
Milkman
Lamplighter
Ice Cutter




Posted on: 2015/5/3 1:12
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JcDevil wrote:

The entire "exploited workforce" argument, too, relies on a workforce too desperate to have another choice. Insane, then, to apply it to Uber drivers when you realize... these people have capital assets worth in excess of $25,000!  I can't remember the last time I got picked up in an UberX and it wasn't a in newer model full-size sedan or luxury crossover or SUV.  Sure, they may be financed, but the idea that Uber drivers are an exploited workforce just doesn't hold up to the reality.

Many of them would disagree with that.
Amazing how you claim that many of them would disagree, when we know for a fact that none of them actually does! And we do know it, because those who disagree would not work for Uber.

Posted on: 2015/5/3 0:36
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The entire "exploited workforce" argument, too, relies on a workforce too desperate to have another choice. Insane, then, to apply it to Uber drivers when you realize... these people have capital assets worth in excess of $25,000!  I can't remember the last time I got picked up in an UberX and it wasn't a in newer model full-size sedan or luxury crossover or SUV.  Sure, they may be financed, but the idea that Uber drivers are an exploited workforce just doesn't hold up to the reality.

Many of them would disagree with that.

Posted on: 2015/5/2 22:18
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The entire "exploited workforce" argument, too, relies on a workforce too desperate to have another choice. Insane, then, to apply it to Uber drivers when you realize... these people have capital assets worth in excess of $25,000!  I can't remember the last time I got picked up in an UberX and it wasn't a in newer model full-size sedan or luxury crossover or SUV.  Sure, they may be financed, but the idea that Uber drivers are an exploited workforce just doesn't hold up to the reality.


Posted on: 2015/5/2 14:47
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Re: UBER - car service in Jersey City
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Frank_M wrote:
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JcDevil wrote:
The idea that any grown adult freely entering into an agreement with another party to perform work in a given arrangement is "exploitation" is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. How little respect do you have for these drivers that you think that they are incapable of making their own choices on how to participate in the economy?


If it helps, I promise this will be my last word on the subject: sigh.


It was also your only word. You don't know how to argue your position. So you pretend that you do have arguments - but! - you just don't feel like we deserve to hear those. Hence, yet again, the condescending "sigh".


Posted on: 2015/5/2 12:21
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Re: UBER - car service in Jersey City
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Frank_M wrote:
Quote:

JcDevil wrote:
The idea that any grown adult freely entering into an agreement with another party to perform work in a given arrangement is "exploitation" is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. How little respect do you have for these drivers that you think that they are incapable of making their own choices on how to participate in the economy?


If it helps, I promise this will be my last word on the subject: sigh.

Thanks for trying, though.

I appreciate, too, JcDevil's honest appraisal of our economy as we find it - he doesn't sugar-coat, nor should any of us, the impending obsolesence of manual, low-skill labor. I will side with you, Frank, as I am also concerned many jobs that were never intended to be full-time (such as driving an uber-car) are increasingly becoming full time jobs for bread-winners.

Is that absolutely the case with uber-car drivers vs. taxi-cab drivers? Someone should do a survey; I personally don't know, as I can't afford either and would feel awkward bringing it up anyway.

Posted on: 2015/5/1 21:03
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Re: UBER - car service in Jersey City
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Frank_M wrote:
Quote:

JcDevil wrote:
The idea that any grown adult freely entering into an agreement with another party to perform work in a given arrangement is "exploitation" is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. How little respect do you have for these drivers that you think that they are incapable of making their own choices on how to participate in the economy?


If it helps, I promise this will be my last word on the subject: sigh.


I and others have mentioned in this thread that what you so abhor is called technology and progress. I'll hate to see your reaction when most fast food jobs are eliminated and replaced by machines. And this is far better than mere automation because it is directly improving the lives of millions of consumers, as so many have demonstrated.

Anyway, I found a picture of you when writing these posts:

http://i.imgur.com/91sn32Q.jpg

Posted on: 2015/5/1 20:53
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Re: UBER - car service in Jersey City
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JcDevil wrote:
The idea that any grown adult freely entering into an agreement with another party to perform work in a given arrangement is "exploitation" is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. How little respect do you have for these drivers that you think that they are incapable of making their own choices on how to participate in the economy?


If it helps, I promise this will be my last word on the subject: sigh.

Posted on: 2015/5/1 20:38
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