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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
#54
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Quote:

mrasg1 wrote:
If you want to hunt and do it humanely and
it's for food not trophy? Fine. If you want
to defend yourself and family in your home ? Fine.
But no way in hell should anyone but law enforcement
on duty be allowed to carry a weapon as part of
their job. What's next? The asinine stand your ground law ?


What you don't seem to understand is the fact that hardened criminals will carry guns illegally and they don't care about any of NJ's restrictive laws. They don't care about them AT ALL. It's not even a thought for them. They're going to carry guns, period. I think it's about time we allow the law-abiding citizens the same ability, and let them do it legally.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 3:28
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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If you want to hunt and do it humanely and
it's for food not trophy? Fine. If you want
to defend yourself and family in your home ? Fine.
But no way in hell should anyone but law enforcement
on duty be allowed to carry a weapon. What's next? The asinine stand your ground law ?

Posted on: 2014/3/4 3:25
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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This could be a way to remove dogs off the streets!

If a dog snares, barks or makes a stance that looks provoking, a person concealed to carry, can whip out their gun and humanely put the dog down justifiably ... the fear of life is a grey area and cops are known to kills dogs for the same reason!

Posted on: 2014/3/4 3:07
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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The first 5,000 conceal carry permits in Illinois were mailed out this week . . . so Chicago residents now have their rights supported.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 1:56
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Quote:

Monroe wrote:
The big issue, legally, is whether putting up those onerous requirements are a dodge to avoid granting carry licenses.

There are no obligations whatsoever to allow concealed carry, let alone allow anyone who wants to CC. Gun ownership yes, CC no.


Quote:
And legally, many court decisions are coming in line with the 2nd Amendment....

You mean, the radical "anyone carry anything at any time" interpretation? Not quite.

There's also a huge difference between the pre-Heller DC situation and NJ.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 1:32
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Dolomiti wrote:
I seriously doubt NJ will be forced by the courts to allow concealed carry. Courts have repeatedly upheld NJ's laws.

I also am not too thrilled about other states interfering in New Jersey's laws. I cannot imagine they'd like it if NJ returned the favor. Though I guess it opens the door for Bloomberg's new org to work in whatever states he chooses....

In terms of its effectiveness, it should be screamingly obvious that CC does not reduce crime. In particular, NYC has strong gun restrictions, and the crime rate has been dropping steadily since the 1990s. NJ's crime rate has also fallen faster than national rates.

There are also several legal options for self defense, such as mace and pepper sprays. CC is also tough to get, but still available in NJ.


When the laws are stacked to prevent CC, for all intent it's not available. The big issue, legally, is whether putting up those onerous requirements are a dodge to avoid granting carry licenses. And legally, many court decisions are coming in line with the 2nd Amendment, as happened in Illinois re:Chicago carry restrictions.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 0:34
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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I seriously doubt NJ will be forced by the courts to allow concealed carry. Courts have repeatedly upheld NJ's laws.

I also am not too thrilled about other states interfering in New Jersey's laws. I cannot imagine they'd like it if NJ returned the favor. Though I guess it opens the door for Bloomberg's new org to work in whatever states he chooses....

In terms of its effectiveness, it should be screamingly obvious that CC does not reduce crime. In particular, NYC has strong gun restrictions, and the crime rate has been dropping steadily since the 1990s. NJ's crime rate has also fallen faster than national rates.

There are also several legal options for self defense, such as mace and pepper sprays. CC is also tough to get, but still available in NJ.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 0:15
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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AlexC wrote:
I understand your question - I would want the right to carry just in case, in that one event, which hopefully may never happen. I only speak for myself. I have never felt superior if I am carrying a weapon, nor would I use a firearm offensively, only in the worst case scenario where there is no other recourse.

I have successfully negotiated out of violent confrontation by being reasonable, and tactful - this is my preferred method, but not everyone can be reasoned with.

This is a completely reasonable opinion. I won?t contend that there are people out there who are skilled enough and level headed enough that having a concealed carry permit is an exceptional idea.

I just happen to think the majority of them are already working in law enforcement.

Quote:

borisp wrote:
Quote:
Pebble wrote:
As a human being that has actually had a gun pointed in my face close enough that I was looking down its barrel, I can unequivocally state that if I had a gun in my pocket, the result would have been the same or worse.

Non sequitur. If you are not able to use a gun for self-defense it follows that you should not carry a gun. Nobody forces you. Nobody even asks you to carry. But if a gun in your hands would make the situation worse, it does not follow that everybody is the same way. It doesn't mean that we should deny the right of defense to others. Like this woman, or this man, or this, or this, or this, or this. Would you rather they were disarmed?

Also, I have to say that every time you post a comment like this, and then it ends with your standard sign-off line about winners and losers, - it looks positively hilarious.

I?m not following your line of humor on this, but if you are entertained, that?s fine.

You posted four very rare videos that took place over several years. Since we?re playing the linking to news article game, here?s some more:
March 3, 2014
February 21, 2014
December 26, 2014

Those are three stories that take place recently in which people fired their guns while carrying them in public. Although you liked to include stories about people with guns in their own home, I chose stories that pertained to this specific topic.

Quote:

borisp wrote:
Quote:
Pebble wrote:
You don?t see how Vermont?s size doesn?t come into play? You don?t think that density plays a factor?

Not until I see a study that shows that density does play a factor. If density were that madness-inducing, we'd seen some other effects in NYC, - like people fighting with tire irons in traffic, or trying to smash their cars into others or whatnot.

Here is a study on density of population and crime.

I?m not sure why you think people would just randomly smash each other with tire irons, but density absolutely plays a role.

Quote:

borisp wrote:
Quote:
Pebble wrote:
I think you should get the difference between ?than? and ?then? correct before you could even grasp the idea of informing me about anything.

I was born in the USSR and for the first 30 years or so I was speaking Russian almost exclusively. Eventually my grammar will be perfect. What you've got is much harder to fix.

I don?t know what you think I have but it?s in your own mind.

Quote:

borisp wrote:
Quote:
JCMan8 wrote:
I think we would all be better in a hypothetical world where guns did not exist.

Oh, man. REALLY? This is so sad. How is that a hypothetical world? The firearms became ubiquitous only about 200 years ago.

Second, do you really think that there were no crime and no violence before the guns were invented?! Or, do you think it was better for the victims before they could defend themselves?

The means to kill someone was far more difficult. You had swords, knives, spears? essentially the weapons were pointy objects. The ability to slay multiple individuals in a matter of a minute was exceptionally difficult.

For one, you had to be rather close to the target. You couldn?t just fire off a gun from 30 yards away and hit a target. You needed to be within the blades distance.

For two, were you the only person with a weapon the likelihood that you would be able to murder 5 people in a room is unlikely. Only a gun makes this type vast death possible.

Lastly, nobody claims that there was no crime or violence prior to guns. It is well established that there certainly was plenty of it. The difference is the grand scale in which violence can be perpetuated. Without guns, the slayings in Columbine and Newtown are not physically possible.

I?m not sure why you think it is sad when someone wishes a tool that is only good for causing death didn?t exist. There is no other purpose for a gun but death. So, yes, the world would be a vastly greater place if this tool did not exist.

Posted on: 2014/3/3 23:19
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Pebble wrote:
As a human being that has actually had a gun pointed in my face close enough that I was looking down its barrel, I can unequivocally state that if I had a gun in my pocket, the result would have been the same or worse.

Non sequitur. If you are not able to use a gun for self-defense it follows that you should not carry a gun. Nobody forces you. Nobody even asks you to carry. But if a gun in your hands would make the situation worse, it does not follow that everybody is the same way. It doesn't mean that we should deny the right of defense to others. Like this woman, or this man, or this, or this, or this, or this. Would you rather they were disarmed?

Also, I have to say that every time you post a comment like this, and then it ends with your standard sign-off line about winners and losers, - it looks positively hilarious.

Quote:
Pebble wrote:
You don?t see how Vermont?s size doesn?t come into play? You don?t think that density plays a factor?

Not until I see a study that shows that density does play a factor. If density were that madness-inducing, we'd seen some other effects in NYC, - like people fighting with tire irons in traffic, or trying to smash their cars into others or whatnot.

Quote:
Pebble wrote:
I think you should get the difference between ?than? and ?then? correct before you could even grasp the idea of informing me about anything.

I was born in the USSR and for the first 30 years or so I was speaking Russian almost exclusively. Eventually my grammar will be perfect. What you've got is much harder to fix.

Quote:
JCMan8 wrote:
I think we would all be better in a hypothetical world where guns did not exist.

Oh, man. REALLY? This is so sad. How is that a hypothetical world? The firearms became ubiquitous only about 200 years ago.

Second, do you really think that there were no crime and no violence before the guns were invented?! Or, do you think it was better for the victims before they could defend themselves?

Quote:
mrasg1 wrote:
As the great philosopher Lynyrd Skynyrd said: "Well hand guns are made for killin' They ain't no good for nothin' else

If you believed that ignorant statement, you'd have to think that cops are murderers. I can immediately give you three other purposes for a gun: defense (that would be the primary purpose), sport and hunting (the latter if you are one of the people who like themselves an organic, no-hormones, no-antibiotics, free-range, grass-fed, locally grown, sustainable meat).

Posted on: 2014/3/2 14:17
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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As the great philosopher Lynyrd Skynyrd
said:

"Well hand guns are made for killin'
They ain't no good for nothin' else
And if you like to drink your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself
So why don't we dump 'em people
To the bottom of the sea
Before some ole fool come around here
Wanna shoot either you or me."

Posted on: 2014/3/1 6:26
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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I understand your question - I would want the right to carry just in case, in that one event, which hopefully may never happen. I only speak for myself. I have never felt superior if I am carrying a weapon, nor would I use a firearm offensively, only in the worst case scenario where there is no other recourse.

I have successfully negotiated out of violent confrontation by being reasonable, and tactful - this is my preferred method, but not everyone can be reasoned with.

Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

AlexC wrote:
I would arm myself in the hope of protecting my life in the extreme scenario. I would prefer not to carry firearms, it's uncomfortable and scary, even after years of doing it. I would not try to be a hero because I'm armed - far from it, most carriers actually try to avoid any kind of confrontation because they are armed. Who wants to deal with the shit that comes with drawing your weapon? I am talking about when my life hangs in the balance - this is the only time where I would draw my weapon.

How many times in your civilian life can you say that you've ever been in that situation where you are in a life or death scenario in which owning a gun would have saved your life? Since you are presently alive now, I would say that the scenarios are zero.

I'm not questioning your desire to keep your family safe. I only question the amount of times in which you would actually need a hand gun.

Maybe this is just a feeling I get from those I have spoken to in person on this, but my impression is that the desire is to intimidate in situations where there could be a minor amount of danger. That, to me, is cowardice.

Posted on: 2014/3/1 2:18
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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AlexC wrote:
I would arm myself in the hope of protecting my life in the extreme scenario. I would prefer not to carry firearms, it's uncomfortable and scary, even after years of doing it. I would not try to be a hero because I'm armed - far from it, most carriers actually try to avoid any kind of confrontation because they are armed. Who wants to deal with the shit that comes with drawing your weapon? I am talking about when my life hangs in the balance - this is the only time where I would draw my weapon.

How many times in your civilian life can you say that you've ever been in that situation where you are in a life or death scenario in which owning a gun would have saved your life? Since you are presently alive now, I would say that the scenarios are zero.

I'm not questioning your desire to keep your family safe. I only question the amount of times in which you would actually need a hand gun.

Maybe this is just a feeling I get from those I have spoken to in person on this, but my impression is that the desire is to intimidate in situations where there could be a minor amount of danger. That, to me, is cowardice.

Posted on: 2014/3/1 1:05
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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I would arm myself in the hope of protecting my life in the extreme scenario. I would prefer not to carry firearms, it's uncomfortable and scary, even after years of doing it. I would not try to be a hero because I'm armed - far from it, most carriers actually try to avoid any kind of confrontation because they are armed. Who wants to deal with the shit that comes with drawing your weapon? I am talking about when my life hangs in the balance - this is the only time where I would draw my weapon.

Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Pebble, focusing on legal gun owners who hardly commit any crimes vs the vast majority of illegal gun owning criminals is EXACTLY ignoring the real problem, and by a huge degree.

How often do we read about legal gun owners committing crimes in comparison? Hardly ever.

I won't parry your simple Cro-Magnon comment with a simpleton one towards you, however. Oops, I just did!

I apologize but I?m not as simple as you. I can equally think that criminals shouldn?t have guns as well as those ?law-abiding? carry them in a concealed manner.

Quote:

AlexC wrote:
Quote:

Yes, really. As a human being that has actually had a gun pointed in my face close enough that I was looking down its barrel, I can unequivocally state that if I had a gun in my pocket, the result would have been the same or worse.

I don?t believe that anyone else in this thread has ever been faced with such a situation. All of these phony John Waynes really can bite it. The garbage argument that the guy that died wouldn?t have if he had a gun is just that. The reality is that the guy would not only still be dead, but the criminals would have ended up with one more gun in their hands.


Maybe that would be the case with you, because you don't own a gun, constantly train with it in simulated real-life scenarios (Simunitions, IDPA). Criminals such as that scum will never expect a civilian to shoot back.

btw - I've had assault rifles pointed at me on more than one occasion in my two field assignments in Cambodia, but being in a UN Civilian Mission I was not officially allowed to have weapons.

Military duty is vastly different than that on the street. I may not be trained to engage in hand gun shootouts, but from experience these don?t end well.

My experience with a gun was simple, I walked into a place to watch a live musical performance. The place had just finished getting robbed and the guy was walking out. He saw new people walking in and shoved the gun in my face to demand money. Given that the place was a crowded bar, let?s say that there are concealed carry laws. Who is foolish enough to pull out a gun to threaten the man that already has the gun pointed in someone?s face? Or maybe you care so little for my life, as the current target, that you would feel as though pulling your gun will only result in my death with the criminal pulls the trigger. Maybe I?m the person with the concealed gun. Since the gun is already in my face prior to my knowledge of what is even occurring, how do you think the situation would change if I sudden reached for my hidden holster?

I?ve stated before that my issue isn?t with guns. I?ve won state competitions for my own marksmanship. However, the concept of people carrying guns does not result in a net positive. It only results in more people with guns. Personally, I find those that want to carry a gun with them a coward.

Posted on: 2014/2/28 21:25
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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JCMan8 wrote:
I think we would all be better in a hypothetical world where guns did not exist. But that is not the world we live in. Criminals with guns (I think mostly obtained illegally) are rampant.

Although I have no plans to ever own a gun, I don't have a problem with concealed carry laws allowing law abiding citizens to protect themselves from criminals. Those people are going to get guns whether we like it or not so be realistic.

As far as I know, the statistics show that gun control laws do not reduce the instance with criminals with guns. I also believe statistics show that violent crime drops in areas that allow for concealed carry.

The talk about concealed carry leading to the Wild West is fear mongering hyperbole that has no basis in fact. So I would vote for a concealed carry law.


+1

Posted on: 2014/2/28 20:48
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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No, you are just choosing to believe whatever you want. That's fine, but if you think these arguments have no basis in reality then you are just choosing to believe whatever you want.

There are enough instances of violent crime related to concealed carry for it to be a concern. Are you telling me that no one has ever been murdered by someone who has a concealed carry right by law? I do not blame anyone wanting to protect themselves but adding more guns to the equation can make things worse. I ask people just to think about it. Can you trust yourself to be in sound judgement every time and anywhere you carry your gun? If not, the consequences can be quite tragic.

Posted on: 2014/2/28 18:31
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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I think we would all be better in a hypothetical world where guns did not exist. But that is not the world we live in. Criminals with guns (I think mostly obtained illegally) are rampant.

Although I have no plans to ever own a gun, I don't have a problem with concealed carry laws allowing law abiding citizens to protect themselves from criminals. Those people are going to get guns whether we like it or not so be realistic.

As far as I know, the statistics show that gun control laws do not reduce the instance with criminals with guns. I also believe statistics show that violent crime drops in areas that allow for concealed carry.

The talk about concealed carry leading to the Wild West is fear mongering hyperbole that has no basis in fact. So I would vote for a concealed carry law.

Posted on: 2014/2/28 16:50
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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If you were carrying a concealed gun, you would probably get that gun stolen by the guy already pointing a gun to your head. Many cases of these 'illegal guns' are actually stolen from legal gun owners. What's one more?

It makes you wonder how these guns get stolen so frequently. Do owners advertise it? Are they foolish enough to just leave it lying around? Illegal sales? The burden of gun ownership is never to be underestimated but there are simply too many fools who can easily get access to them. Concealed carry is just another step to more folly.

What would be the point anyway? Why stop there? Why not just carry a blinking sign that says 'I am armed, make my day?' Concealed carry is probably too vague for some would-be criminals. Let's just let it all hang out like the good ole days when we strap semi-automatics on each hip. For the poor folks who can't afford a gun or too chicken to steal one, just carry a 'I know kung-fu' sign and hope the scrawny hipsters leave you alone.

Posted on: 2014/2/28 16:43
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Pebble, focusing on legal gun owners who hardly commit any crimes vs the vast majority of illegal gun owning criminals is EXACTLY ignoring the real problem, and by a huge degree.

How often do we read about legal gun owners committing crimes in comparison? Hardly ever.

I won't parry your simple Cro-Magnon comment with a simpleton one towards you, however. Oops, I just did!

I apologize but I?m not as simple as you. I can equally think that criminals shouldn?t have guns as well as those ?law-abiding? carry them in a concealed manner.

Quote:

AlexC wrote:
Quote:

Yes, really. As a human being that has actually had a gun pointed in my face close enough that I was looking down its barrel, I can unequivocally state that if I had a gun in my pocket, the result would have been the same or worse.

I don?t believe that anyone else in this thread has ever been faced with such a situation. All of these phony John Waynes really can bite it. The garbage argument that the guy that died wouldn?t have if he had a gun is just that. The reality is that the guy would not only still be dead, but the criminals would have ended up with one more gun in their hands.


Maybe that would be the case with you, because you don't own a gun, constantly train with it in simulated real-life scenarios (Simunitions, IDPA). Criminals such as that scum will never expect a civilian to shoot back.

btw - I've had assault rifles pointed at me on more than one occasion in my two field assignments in Cambodia, but being in a UN Civilian Mission I was not officially allowed to have weapons.

Military duty is vastly different than that on the street. I may not be trained to engage in hand gun shootouts, but from experience these don?t end well.

My experience with a gun was simple, I walked into a place to watch a live musical performance. The place had just finished getting robbed and the guy was walking out. He saw new people walking in and shoved the gun in my face to demand money. Given that the place was a crowded bar, let?s say that there are concealed carry laws. Who is foolish enough to pull out a gun to threaten the man that already has the gun pointed in someone?s face? Or maybe you care so little for my life, as the current target, that you would feel as though pulling your gun will only result in my death with the criminal pulls the trigger. Maybe I?m the person with the concealed gun. Since the gun is already in my face prior to my knowledge of what is even occurring, how do you think the situation would change if I sudden reached for my hidden holster?

I?ve stated before that my issue isn?t with guns. I?ve won state competitions for my own marksmanship. However, the concept of people carrying guns does not result in a net positive. It only results in more people with guns. Personally, I find those that want to carry a gun with them a coward.

Posted on: 2014/2/28 15:29
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Yes, really. As a human being that has actually had a gun pointed in my face close enough that I was looking down its barrel, I can unequivocally state that if I had a gun in my pocket, the result would have been the same or worse.

I don?t believe that anyone else in this thread has ever been faced with such a situation. All of these phony John Waynes really can bite it. The garbage argument that the guy that died wouldn?t have if he had a gun is just that. The reality is that the guy would not only still be dead, but the criminals would have ended up with one more gun in their hands.


Maybe that would be the case with you, because you don't own a gun, constantly train with it in simulated real-life scenarios (Simunitions, IDPA). Criminals such as that scum will never expect a civilian to shoot back.

btw - I've had assault rifles pointed at me on more than one occasion in my two field assignments in Cambodia, but being in a UN Civilian Mission I was not officially allowed to have weapons.

Posted on: 2014/2/28 0:40
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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http://www.nj.com/crime/index.ssf/201 ... _jersey_homicide_map.html

I don't see one mention of a legal gun owner committing any of these crimes when I've read the accompanying stories-and when there isn't an arrest, do you really think it's been done by a legal gun owner?

Posted on: 2014/2/27 22:28
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Pebble, focusing on legal gun owners who hardly commit any crimes vs the vast majority of illegal gun owning criminals is EXACTLY ignoring the real problem, and by a huge degree.

How often do we read about legal gun owners committing crimes in comparison? Hardly ever.

I won't parry your simple Cro-Magnon comment with a simpleton one towards you, however. Oops, I just did!


Posted on: 2014/2/27 21:56
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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AlexC wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
Yup, not one compelling argument made in favor of this nonsense. The stupidity of this idea astounds me.


really? in a life and death scenario such as the Short Hills Mall robbery/murder, the victim might have lived had he or his wife were armed(and of course trained in the use of handguns). I just want a fighting chance in such an extreme scenario where I might have to take someone else's life - I would rather be alive.

Yes, really. As a human being that has actually had a gun pointed in my face close enough that I was looking down its barrel, I can unequivocally state that if I had a gun in my pocket, the result would have been the same or worse.

I don?t believe that anyone else in this thread has ever been faced with such a situation. All of these phony John Waynes really can bite it. The garbage argument that the guy that died wouldn?t have if he had a gun is just that. The reality is that the guy would not only still be dead, but the criminals would have ended up with one more gun in their hands.

Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Not a single state that has gone for right to carry has repealed the legislation-ever, it's so well liked. And Florida's gun crimes dropped by a third during a period in which there was a 90% rise in carry permits.

Somehow the anti-gun nuts don't mind criminals being armed (because they will) but object to upstanding citizens having the same right.

Please, I beg of, point to one quote of someone saying they don?t mind criminals being armed. Your post is Cro-Magnon level idiocy.

Quote:

borisp wrote:
Quote:
CatDog wrote:
The entire state of Vermont has the same population as Hudson County. Not to mention everything else that's different. Vermont doesn't have low crime because everyone carries guns, and everyone carrying guns here isn't going to turn NJ into a paradise. Knock it off with this dumb fixation on Vermont.

I don't see how the size of Vermont comes into play. Pebble suggested here that freedom to carry means that people "shooting each other here over loud stereos and texting during movie previews" - if that were true, it would have been happening in Vermont, since they enjoy an almost unrestricted right to carry.

Also, if you have some sort of predisposition against Vermont, I can give you other examples. We can even look beyond the USA and find an example in Europe with heavily armed population that doesn't try to massacre each other: in Switzerland people actually take home their service rifle after they are done with their army service.

Really? You don?t see how Vermont?s size doesn?t come into play? You don?t think that density plays a factor?

My reference to people shooting each other over loud stereos is based exactly on a case going on where someone with the right to carry decided to pop-off at a bunch of kids because their stereo was too loud. If there is no right to carry, then that guy isn?t shooting his gun and then grabbing some popcorn and watching TV.

Quote:

borisp wrote:
Quote:
Frank_M wrote:
It?s not fair to ask hypothetical questions, but there?s no harm in asking yourself: If the Second Amendment did not exist, and illegal gun ownership and gun crime was as common as it is today, what reasons could you cite for the importance of adding such a provision to the Constitution? How challenging would it be to make a rational case that serves the best interests of the public? What about the other Amendments?

Now I am puzzled. Is this not a part of the US history class? Did they not teach about the argument between the federalists and anti-federalists in your high-schools? Is "Federalist Papers" not a required reading?!

Anyways, while you are at it, here is yet another question that "there is no harm in asking yourself": what was the name of the first anti-gun organization in the USA?

An answer is here: "In effect, the Klan was a military force serving the interests of the Democratic party, the planter class, and all those who desired restoration of white supremacy. Its purposes were political, but political in the broadest sense, for it sought to affect power relations, both public and private, throughout Southern society. It aimed to reverse the interlocking changes sweeping over the South during Reconstruction: to destroy the Republican party's infrastructure, undermine the Reconstruction state, reestablish control of the black labor force, and restore racial subordination in every aspect of Southern life... To that end they worked to curb the education, economic advancement, voting rights, and right to keep and bear arms of blacks"

Yes, Klan, The Original Gun Controllers.

Yawn. Those that have no arguments go to strawmen. If the Klan supported it before then you must hate it now!

Quote:

borisp wrote:
Quote:
Pebble wrote:
Yup, not one compelling argument made in favor of this nonsense. The stupidity of this idea astounds me.

You have been informed that the right of self-defense is a natural right and Constitutionally protected at that. If you do not find that compelling than being astounded is something you should get used to, for the wonders will never seize.

I think you should get the difference between ?than? and ?then? correct before you could even grasp the idea of informing me about anything.

Posted on: 2014/2/27 21:38
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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CatDog wrote:
The entire state of Vermont has the same population as Hudson County. Not to mention everything else that's different. Vermont doesn't have low crime because everyone carries guns, and everyone carrying guns here isn't going to turn NJ into a paradise. Knock it off with this dumb fixation on Vermont.

I don't see how the size of Vermont comes into play. Pebble suggested here that freedom to carry means that people "shooting each other here over loud stereos and texting during movie previews" - if that were true, it would have been happening in Vermont, since they enjoy an almost unrestricted right to carry.

Also, if you have some sort of predisposition against Vermont, I can give you other examples. We can even look beyond the USA and find an example in Europe with heavily armed population that doesn't try to massacre each other: in Switzerland people actually take home their service rifle after they are done with their army service.

Quote:
Frank_M wrote:
It?s not fair to ask hypothetical questions, but there?s no harm in asking yourself: If the Second Amendment did not exist, and illegal gun ownership and gun crime was as common as it is today, what reasons could you cite for the importance of adding such a provision to the Constitution? How challenging would it be to make a rational case that serves the best interests of the public? What about the other Amendments?

Now I am puzzled. Is this not a part of the US history class? Did they not teach about the argument between the federalists and anti-federalists in your high-schools? Is "Federalist Papers" not a required reading?!

Anyways, while you are at it, here is yet another question that "there is no harm in asking yourself": what was the name of the first anti-gun organization in the USA?

An answer is here: "In effect, the Klan was a military force serving the interests of the Democratic party, the planter class, and all those who desired restoration of white supremacy. Its purposes were political, but political in the broadest sense, for it sought to affect power relations, both public and private, throughout Southern society. It aimed to reverse the interlocking changes sweeping over the South during Reconstruction: to destroy the Republican party's infrastructure, undermine the Reconstruction state, reestablish control of the black labor force, and restore racial subordination in every aspect of Southern life... To that end they worked to curb the education, economic advancement, voting rights, and right to keep and bear arms of blacks"

Yes, Klan, The Original Gun Controllers.

Quote:
Pebble wrote:
Yup, not one compelling argument made in favor of this nonsense. The stupidity of this idea astounds me.

You have been informed that the right of self-defense is a natural right and Constitutionally protected at that. If you do not find that compelling than being astounded is something you should get used to, for the wonders will never seize.

Posted on: 2014/2/27 4:13
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Not a single state that has gone for right to carry has repealed the legislation-ever, it's so well liked. And Florida's gun crimes dropped by a third during a period in which there was a 90% rise in carry permits.

Somehow the anti-gun nuts don't mind criminals being armed (because they will) but object to upstanding citizens having the same right.


Posted on: 2014/2/27 0:32
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Pebble wrote:
Yup, not one compelling argument made in favor of this nonsense. The stupidity of this idea astounds me.


really? in a life and death scenario such as the Short Hills Mall robbery/murder, the victim might have lived had he or his wife were armed(and of course trained in the use of handguns). I just want a fighting chance in such an extreme scenario where I might have to take someone else's life - I would rather be alive.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 23:28
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Yup, not one compelling argument made in favor of this nonsense. The stupidity of this idea astounds me.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 22:28
Dos A Cero
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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MDM wrote:
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Vigilante wrote:

Florida is like #4 in violent crime and all those citizen crime-fighters seem to be shooting the wrong people.


Had 1/2 hour to kill this morning, so out of curiosity I looked up some stats:

Florida Murder Rate (2012, per 100k): 5.2 (17th)
The state with the lowest rate was New Hampshire of 1.1/100k.

I grabbed stats from and Anti-CCW group Violence Policy Center. Including homicides (both convicted & or only indicted) and accidental shooting deaths for 2008 - 2012, but excluding suicides I counted 37 deaths (Dunn was included in the count). Which is an average of 7.4 per year.

The average number of permit holders during that period was 725,301.

Total permit holder causing an unlawful or accidental death: 0.001% per year or a rate of 1.02/100k.
To put that in perspective, Northern Europe (UK, Sweden, Norway, etc.) average murder rate is 1.5/100k. Western Europe is 1.0/100k.


Florida is consistently in the top 10 of violent crime. Like 485+ per 100,000 people last year. Murder isn't the only violent crime.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 22:11
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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drifterx wrote:
Or you could get the staff to do something about it instead. We all feel like shooting people over every little argument but when it comes time to pay for the consequences, we don't want to end up somewhere that absolves us of our stupidity because the law says so.


Good thing there are no states or laws that allow people to kill others over every little argument and then be absolved of their stupidity. Even Florida, which has been targeted in this thread, will prosecute such folk. Just read about Michael Dunn.


Florida self defense laws caused the jury to be hung on murder but they found him guilty of attempted murder. In other words, Michael Dunn committed acts of such stupidity that even Florida couldn't give him a free pass. Great for the victims that lived but the family of the dead victim has to try it again.

Was he absolved? No. Almost. The prosecution was lucky there were other victims.

BTW, Dunn was also a law-abiding citizen until he went nuts.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 19:45
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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sepecat wrote:
This is goes against my constitutional right...


It?s not fair to ask hypothetical questions, but there?s no harm in asking yourself: If the Second Amendment did not exist, and illegal gun ownership and gun crime was as common as it is today, what reasons could you cite for the importance of adding such a provision to the Constitution? How challenging would it be to make a rational case that serves the best interests of the public? What about the other Amendments?

Posted on: 2014/2/26 19:37
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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sepecat wrote:
Hopefully the Court will make it legal for a law biding citizen to carry in NJ. I also want the court to do away with the process one has to go through to get a handgun (which you cant take outside your home). I will not write an essay to the chief of police to get a handgun permit.. This is goes against my constitutional right to bear arms.



Back when I got my rifle/shotgun and handgun permit in Hoboken 20 years ago, I had to threaten a lawsuit because the Chief there had a policy of only signing permits for his friends. Bayonne also got taken to court for a similar policy.

When I moved to J.C., I had to go through the entire background check again to get my Rifle/Shotgun permit transferred. J.C. has a policy of not allowing the use of transferred records from another municipality. 3+ months, fingerprints, background check for a simple change of address. J.C. though did process everything without any funny business.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 19:14
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