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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Vigilante wrote:

Florida is like #4 in violent crime and all those citizen crime-fighters seem to be shooting the wrong people.


Had 1/2 hour to kill this morning, so out of curiosity I looked up some stats:

Florida Murder Rate (2012, per 100k): 5.2 (17th)
The state with the lowest rate was New Hampshire of 1.1/100k.

I grabbed stats from and Anti-CCW group Violence Policy Center. Including homicides (both convicted & or only indicted) and accidental shooting deaths for 2008 - 2012, but excluding suicides I counted 37 deaths (Dunn was included in the count). Which is an average of 7.4 per year.

The average number of permit holders during that period was 725,301.

Total permit holder causing an unlawful or accidental death: 0.001% per year or a rate of 1.02/100k.
To put that in perspective, Northern Europe (UK, Sweden, Norway, etc.) average murder rate is 1.5/100k. Western Europe is 1.0/100k.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 19:10
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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drifterx wrote:
Or you could get the staff to do something about it instead. We all feel like shooting people over every little argument but when it comes time to pay for the consequences, we don't want to end up somewhere that absolves us of our stupidity because the law says so.


Good thing there are no states or laws that allow people to kill others over every little argument and then be absolved of their stupidity. Even Florida, which has been targeted in this thread, will prosecute such folk. Just read about Michael Dunn.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 19:07
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Hopefully the Court will make it legal for a law biding citizen to carry in NJ. I also want the court to do away with the process one has to go through to get a handgun (which you cant take outside your home). I will not write an essay to the chief of police to get a handgun permit.. This is goes against my constitutional right to bear arms.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 19:01
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Or you could get the staff to do something about it instead. We all feel like shooting people over every little argument but when it comes time to pay for the consequences, we don't want to end up somewhere that absolves us of our stupidity because the law says so.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 18:47
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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La_Verdad wrote:
Quote:

Vigilante wrote:
Florida is like #4 in violent crime and all those citizen crime-fighters seem to be shooting the wrong people.


But man, if you ever want to go see a movie and not have to put up with people texting or having cell phone conversations, Florida is a paradise.


Shooting a rude texter in a theater is maybe over the top, but you should be able to taze them repeatedly until they stop.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 18:15
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Vigilante wrote:
Florida is like #4 in violent crime and all those citizen crime-fighters seem to be shooting the wrong people.


But man, if you ever want to go see a movie and not have to put up with people texting or having cell phone conversations, Florida is a paradise.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 17:53
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Florida is like #4 in violent crime and all those citizen crime-fighters seem to be shooting the wrong people.


Considering the retarded shit that happens in Failorida you really can't use them as an example for anything.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 17:52
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Let's hope so.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 17:25
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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MDM wrote:
Florida has the highest number of Concealed Carry Permits (as of 2012). Pennsylvania is #2.

Some stats from Florida Dept. of Agriculture:

Total permits issued since 1987: 2,591,478
Permits revoked due to criminal activity: 8,226 (0.32%)
Current valid permits: 1,406,896 (Jan 31, 2014)
Permit added in 2013: 109,971


Total permits in NJ (2012): about 32,000


Florida is like #4 in violent crime and all those citizen crime-fighters seem to be shooting the wrong people.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 16:40
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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borisp wrote:
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rycor wrote:
The vast majority of the country is out there, just move. Move far away.


Why should we? It is our natural right, protected by the Constitution. You don't like it, - well, I think it is you who should move. Just as I did move here from the country that didn't recognize my rights, - you can move in the opposite direction.

P.S. What, you think that Vermont is such a horrible place that you need to resist us turning into Vermont?

Violent crimes plummeted in 2013 as gun sales skyrocketed


The entire state of Vermont has the same population as Hudson County. Not to mention everything else that's different. Vermont doesn't have low crime because everyone carries guns, and everyone carrying guns here isn't going to turn NJ into a paradise. Knock it off with this dumb fixation on Vermont.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 15:38
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Florida has the highest number of Concealed Carry Permits (as of 2012). Pennsylvania is #2.

Some stats from Florida Dept. of Agriculture:

Total permits issued since 1987: 2,591,478
Permits revoked due to criminal activity: 8,226 (0.32%)
Current valid permits: 1,406,896 (Jan 31, 2014)
Permit added in 2013: 109,971


Total permits in NJ (2012): about 32,000

Posted on: 2014/2/26 15:21
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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borisp wrote:
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Frank_M wrote:
That?s right borisp, violent crime has been dropping?and with less danger to fear, there?s less need for our conscientious fellow citizens to shoulder the tremendous responsibility of carrying loaded firearms in public. Rejoice!


And, by the same logic, if there is a drop in the number of deaths from the fires, we should stop buying fire extinguishers and smoke detectors?



It?s only the same logic if you?re talking about arson, and yes, given the trends in property crime, you can absolutely feel safer that nobody is going to set fire to your home. Rejoice!

Posted on: 2014/2/26 14:43
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Criminals are already armed and on our streets. I would like the option of being able to carry my own weapon, which I am proficient, practice and compete with on a monthly basis.

I hope to never have to shoot anyone but if it boils down to the safety of my loved ones, I would defend their lives.

An outfit in Belleville Gun For Hire has realistic training courses from beginning to advanced:

http://gunforhire.com/classes/simunitions-force-on-force/

Posted on: 2014/2/26 14:35
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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The Cato Institute filed an Amicus Brief with the court. Excerpt (emphasis mine):




Perhaps the most worrisome part of the lower
court?s decision is the affirmation of a state?s
restriction of a fundamental right to only those with
a ?justifiable need.? New Jersey?s statute restricts
the possession of non-permitted handguns, N.J. Stat.
Ann. ? 2C:39-5(b), and grants permits only to
individuals who can show:
the urgent necessity for self-protection,
as evidenced by specific threats or
previous attacks which demonstrate a
special danger to the applicant?s life
that cannot be avoided by means other
than by issuance of a permit to carry a
handgun.

N.J. Admin. Code ? 13:54-2.4(d)(1).
By upholding the statute, the Third Circuit
approved the conditioning of the exercise of a
fundamental right on a citizen?s being able to prove,
to a state official?s discretionary satisfaction, the
special need to exercise it. As amicus Cato noted in
its briefs supporting the Woollard and Kachalsky
cert. petitions, this is a novel premise that entirely
misconstrues the operation of fundamental rights.
Br. of Amicus Curiae Cato Institute in Support of the
Petition for Writ of Certiorari at 10, Kachalsky v.
Cacace, 133 S. Ct. 1806 (2013) (No. 12-845); Br. of
Amicus Curiae Cato Institute in Support of
Petitioners at 4, Woollard v. Gallagher, 134 S. Ct.
422 (2013) (No. 13-42). It is inconceivable that other
fundamental rights would be subjected to such a
regime. For example, a law that conditioned a parade
permit on a state official?s decision that a particular
organization or cause ?needs? such a parade would be
unquestionably unconstitutional?and so too here.

6

After all, constitutionalizing a right establishes
by the highest law that individuals are entitled to act
in certain ways if they wish, and thereby protects
such conduct against legislators? prejudices and
shifting fads. As this Court said in Heller, ?A
constitutional guarantee subject to future judges?
assessments of its usefulness is no constitutional
guarantee at all.? 554 U.S. at 634. On that logic,
allowing this decision to stand nullifies the
constitutional guarantee of a right to bear arms in
New Jersey. That is so even if state legislators were
unsure whether the Second Amendment protected an
individual right because they enacted the statute at
issue before this Court decided Heller.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 14:20
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Frank_M wrote:
That?s right borisp, violent crime has been dropping?and with less danger to fear, there?s less need for our conscientious fellow citizens to shoulder the tremendous responsibility of carrying loaded firearms in public. Rejoice!


And, by the same logic, if there is a drop in the number of deaths from the fires, we should stop buying fire extinguishers and smoke detectors?

"Fox Butterfield is that you?" (c)

Posted on: 2014/2/26 13:57
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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That?s right borisp, violent crime has been dropping?and with less danger to fear, there?s less need for our conscientious fellow citizens to shoulder the tremendous responsibility of carrying loaded firearms in public. Rejoice!

Posted on: 2014/2/26 13:45
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Don't want to carry a concealed weapon? Don't get one, it's that simple.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 12:49
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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rycor wrote:
The vast majority of the country is out there, just move. Move far away.


Why should we? It is our natural right, protected by the Constitution. You don't like it, - well, I think it is you who should move. Just as I did move here from the country that didn't recognize my rights, - you can move in the opposite direction.

P.S. What, you think that Vermont is such a horrible place that you need to resist us turning into Vermont?

Violent crimes plummeted in 2013 as gun sales skyrocketed


Posted on: 2014/2/26 5:06
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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The vast majority of the country is out there, just move. Move far away.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 3:48
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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"Wild West" the vast majority of the country has this right. I should too.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 3:35
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Pebble wrote:
Welcome to the Wild West. Just wait as people start shooting each other here over loud stereos and texting during movie previews.

There are some laws which are stupid and others which are astronomically stupid. This goes in the latter.


"Wild West" as in, say, Vermont?
Oh, no! The horror!

Posted on: 2014/2/26 3:04
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Welcome to the Wild West. Just wait as people start shooting each other here over loud stereos and texting during movie previews.

There are some laws which are stupid and others which are astronomically stupid. This goes in the latter.

Posted on: 2014/2/26 0:09
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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I can't wait.

Posted on: 2014/2/25 20:59
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Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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NJ is one of a few states that is a 'may issue' when it comes to carrying weapons outside the home. In practice, NJ pretty much bans concealed carry since permits are so rarely issued.

'May Issue' has been overturned in the courts in Illinois (IL had no carry permits at all) and most recently, California (via the left-leaning 9th Circuit Court).

The Supreme Court is now considering hearing a case that could overturn NJ's 'may issue' statute.

From Scotusblog.com

Drake v. Jerejian
Pending petition
Docket No. Op. Below Argument Opinion Vote Author Term
13-827 3d Cir. TBD TBD TBD TBD TBD

Issue: (1) Whether the Second Amendment secures a right to carry handguns outside the home for self-defense; and (2) whether state officials violate the Second Amendment by requiring that individuals wishing to exercise their right to carry a handgun for self-defense first prove a ?justifiable need? for doing so.



Other than NJ, the following States restrict concealed carry by the general public:

Maryland
New York
Delaware
Rhode Island
Massachusetts

All other states are shall issue or unrestricted (Vermont, Alaska, Arizona) by law or in practice. The 3rd Circuit court recently upheld NJ gun restrictions.

Posted on: 2014/2/25 18:02
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