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Re: The futility of gun control
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Again, you're going in circles. YOU'RE the one pressing the whole government vs. the people theory. Time to put on the tin foil hat nut job!

Posted on: 2013/1/31 20:56

Edited by Seagull on 2013/1/31 21:17:52
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Seagull wrote:
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Do you seriously think that our armed forces could be turned against their own families?


Nope, just responding to YOUR suggestion that the "yahoos with assault rifles wouldn't last 10 seconds against our modern armed forces." Btw, that would be a completely unconstitutional order, which our branches of military would be under no obligation to follow. You sound like a complete nut and I'm tired of your circular logic. You're just a troll that likes to be contrary just for the sake of being contrary.


Cry me a river. Do you really think that 300,000,000 Americans own guns? I didn't think so. One gun nut can't fire all 50 of his guns at once. Take the cameras away and the PC tippy-toeing and it would take mere seconds to squash a "rebellion". Don't be silly.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 20:48
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colleen wrote:
Oh, sure, that would never happen lmfao!
http://www.1967newarkriots.com/july-14/


Sorry, not the same. This was the case of a rumour that sparked people on both sides to lawlessness. Anger and paranoia leads to catastrophe everytime. BTW I remember the riots from my youth. Scary times. And that article is very slanted.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 20:42
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Oh, sure, that would never happen lmfao!
http://www.1967newarkriots.com/july-14/

Posted on: 2013/1/31 20:25
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Do you seriously think that our armed forces could be turned against their own families?


Nope, just responding to YOUR suggestion that the "yahoos with assault rifles wouldn't last 10 seconds against our modern armed forces." Btw, that would be a completely unconstitutional order, which our branches of military would be under no obligation to follow. You sound like a complete nut and I'm tired of your circular logic. You're just a troll that likes to be contrary just for the sake of being contrary.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 19:37
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2.8 million in all combined branches of the US military (which are currently off pillaging and plundering third world nations halfway around the world) vs. the 300,000,000 privately owned firearms in the US. 12 years into the second war in the Middle East, and the yahoos over there seem to be handling themselves just fine against our all powerful military. The truth is, you can be angry and call people names, and your frustration is understandable, but gun confiscation will never happen in the US, GPS chips will never happen, ATF monitoring every sale will never happen, and a gun free US will never happen. EVER. You need to be realistic. You're starting to sound like a raving loon.


I knew someone would take the bait. Do you seriously think that our armed forces could be turned against their own families? Which is a crazier thought, reducing the amount of assault weapons in the hands of unqualified and irresponsible Americans or the theory that the government is going to attack us? Most Americans would agree that the latter thought is simply the last refuge of irresponsible citizens and weirdos. And don't be so sure about how guns will be regulated. Time will tell as the Feds move to better regulate "militias". Break out your tricorn hat!

Posted on: 2013/1/31 19:26
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2.8 million in all combined branches of the US military (which are currently off pillaging and plundering third world nations halfway around the world) vs. the 300,000,000 privately owned firearms in the US. 12 years into the second war in the Middle East, and the yahoos over there seem to be handling themselves just fine against our all powerful military. The truth is, you can be angry and call people names, and your frustration is understandable, but gun confiscation will never happen in the US, GPS chips will never happen, ATF monitoring every sale will never happen, and a gun free US will never happen. EVER. You need to be realistic. You're starting to sound like a raving loon.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 18:41
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Yahoos, even with assault rifles, would last about 10 seconds against our modern armed forces.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 18:10
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The federalist papers explains "militia" to mean all able bodied men not a government power or agency. Furthermore the concerns layed out in the Federalist papers show that the 2nd amendment was including as the last line of defense against a over powered central government to ensuring the freedom of the people was never taken away.


So what?

Posted on: 2013/1/31 17:38
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The second amendment was about ensuring a weak federal government that could not exert too much influence over the states, which is why the second amendment so clearly provides that state militias could carry arms. Most of the state legislatures worried about ceding power to a centralized government that without state level militias, the federal government would "oppress" individual states.

The states still saw themselves as individual countries at the time, more similar to the European Union today, than a unified nation with multiple layers of government. This is most obvious in the Articles of Confederation, although the Articles were far too weak to be effective at all.

A lot of this nonsensical debate would be over if the original copies of the constitution had included the comma in the same place. Unfortunately, even among original copies -- there was more than one official document -- the comma indicating that "the people" refers to "state militias" is absent in some versions.

But yeah, rocket propelled grenade launchers for every man, woman and child!


The federalist papers explains "militia" to mean all able bodied men not a government power or agency. Furthermore the concerns layed out in the Federalist papers show that the 2nd amendment was including as the last line of defense against a over powered central government to ensuring the freedom of the people was never taken away.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 17:08
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The second amendment was about ensuring a weak federal government that could not exert too much influence over the states, which is why the second amendment so clearly provides that state militias could carry arms. Most of the state legislatures worried about ceding power to a centralized government that without state level militias, the federal government would "oppress" individual states.

The states still saw themselves as individual countries at the time, more similar to the European Union today, than a unified nation with multiple layers of government. This is most obvious in the Articles of Confederation, although the Articles were far too weak to be effective at all.

A lot of this nonsensical debate would be over if the original copies of the constitution had included the comma in the same place. Unfortunately, even among original copies -- there was more than one official document -- the comma indicating that "the people" refers to "state militias" is absent in some versions.

But yeah, rocket propelled grenade launchers for every man, woman and child!

Posted on: 2013/1/31 15:32
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Borisp. I'd buy your logic. But I'd have to buy that "potential victim" gun owners such as George Zimmerman and Nancy Lanza were also simply unfortunate victims of circumstance. I'd also have to buy that the US Civil War, one of the bloodiest in a developed country, didn't happen. I'd also have to buy that the US didn't help fuel overseas wars by providing munitions to Europeans powers.

Nope. Not buying your revisionist view of events nor history.

I'm not a huge fan of the proposed gun legislation, but your arguments don't make much sense.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 15:24
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Frank_M writes:
This isn't the 1700?s and the national position on firearms cannot be singlehandedly dictated by 18th century attitudes, needs, and practices.


borisp wrote:
...it is not a "position on firearms". It is a "position on a fundamental God-given right of everyone to defend their lives."


Yes, I know about the irresistible power of dogma and fear, but thanks for reminding me.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 14:57
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
We live in high ratio of felons, thus logic would suggest the removal of guns to mitigate the gun crime issues - It would seem illogical to increase gun ownership ...


Logic would suggest removing of the guns from the felons, not from their potential victims.

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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Why is it that the US is the only nation on earth pushing for more guns !


First, my mom taught me never to use this logic by my fifth grade. It would never do in our household to say something "why should I do my homework if all the other kids..."

Second, the US is the one of the only two nations on the Earth that did not see a radical change of the government during more than two centuries. It is also one of the very few civilized nations that managed not to see wholesale slaughter of the citizens by their government.

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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Why don't other countries use the same logic as us to allow their citizens to arm themselves to reduce any crime they have ?


Who cares? Other countries do not allow their citizens to exercise free speech either. - Before you object with "Uk!" or "France!" or whatnot, - google it first.

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?We aren?t really getting the return in public safety from this level of incarceration,? said Susan Urahn, the center?s managing director.
...

In the past 20 years, according the Federal Bureau of Investigation, rates of violent crimes fell by 25 percent, to 464 per 100,000 people in 2007 from 612.5 in 1987.


Really? So, all the drastic reduction in the crime rates during the last few decades, - it is not due to incarceration of the criminals? It is ALL due to the growth in gun ownership among law-abiding citizens? Cool.



BTW, if you want to reduce the prison population, - it is easy. All those "crimes" that have no victim, where we punish sin, - like drugs, - should go. The government should get out of the sin-punishment business altogether.


Posted on: 2013/1/31 14:07
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We live in high ratio of felons, thus logic would suggest the removal of guns to mitigate the gun crime issues - It would seem illogical to increase gun ownership .... Why is it that the US is the only nation on earth pushing for more guns ! Why don't other countries use the same logic as us to allow their citizens to arm themselves to reduce any crime they have ?

WORTH A READ;


U.S. Imprisons One in 100 Adults, Report Finds
By ADAM LIPTAK of the NY Times
Published: February 29, 2008
For the first time in the nation?s history, more than one in 100 American adults are behind bars, according to a new report.
Nationwide, the prison population grew by 25,000 last year, bringing it to almost 1.6 million, after three decades of growth that has seen the prison population nearly triple. Another 723,000 people are in local jails.
The number of American adults is about 230 million, meaning that one in every 99.1 adults is behind bars.
Incarceration rates are even higher for some groups. One in 36 adult Hispanic men is behind bars, based on Justice Department figures for 2006. One in 15 adult black men is, too, as is one in nine black men ages 20 to 34.
The report, from the Pew Center on the States, also found that one in 355 white women ages 35 to 39 is behind bars, compared with one in 100 black women.
The report?s methodology differed from that used by the Justice Department, which calculates the incarceration rate by using the total population rather than the adult population as the denominator. Using the department?s methodology, about one in 130 Americans is behind bars.
The increase in the number of prisoners over the last 18 months, the Pew report says, pushed the national adult incarceration rate to just over one in 100.
?We aren?t really getting the return in public safety from this level of incarceration,? said Susan Urahn, the center?s managing director.
But Paul Cassell, a law professor at the University of Utah and a former federal judge, said the Pew report considered only half of the cost-benefit equation and overlooked the ?very tangible benefits: lower crime rates.?
In the past 20 years, according the Federal Bureau of Investigation, rates of violent crimes fell by 25 percent, to 464 per 100,000 people in 2007 from 612.5 in 1987.
?While we certainly want to be smart about who we put into prisons,? Professor Cassell said, ?it would be a mistake to think that we can release any significant number of prisoners without increasing crime rates. One out of every 100 adults is behind bars because one out of every 100 adults has committed a serious criminal offense.?
The United States imprisons more people than any other nation in the world. China is second, with 1.5 million people behind bars. The gap is even wider in percentage terms.

Germany imprisons 93 out of every 100,000 people, according to the International Center for Prison Studies at King?s College in London. The comparable number for the United States is roughly eight times that, or 750 out of 100,000.
Ms. Urahn said the nation could not afford the incarceration rate documented in the report.
?We tend to be a country in which incarceration is an easy response to crime,? she said. ?Being tough on crime is an easy position to take, particularly if you have the money. And we did have the money in the ?80s and ?90s.?
Now, with fewer resources available, the report said, ?prison costs are blowing a hole in state budgets.?
On average, states spend almost 7 percent of their budgets on corrections, trailing only health care, education and transportation.
In 2007, according to the National Association of State Budget Officers, states spent $44 billion in tax dollars on corrections. That is up from $10.6 billion in 1987, a 127 percent increase when adjusted for inflation. With money from bonds and the federal government included, total state spending on corrections last year was $49 billion. By 2011, the Pew report said, states are on track to spend an additional $25 billion.
It cost an average of $23,876 dollars to imprison someone in 2005, the most recent year for which data were available. But state spending varies widely, from $45,000 a year in Rhode Island to $13,000 in Louisiana.
?Getting tough on crime has gotten tough on taxpayers,? said Adam Gelb, the director of the public safety performance project at the Pew center. ?They don?t want to spend $23,000 on a prison cell for a minor violation any more than they want a bridge to nowhere.?
The cost of medical care is growing by 10 percent annually, the report said, and will accelerate as the prison population ages.
About one in nine state government employees works in corrections, and some states are finding it hard to fill those jobs. California spent more than $500 million on overtime alone in 2006.
The number of prisoners in California dropped by 4,000 last year, making Texas? prison system the nation?s largest, at about 172,000. But the Texas Legislature last year approved broad changes to the state?s corrections system, including expansions of drug treatment programs and drug courts and revisions to parole practices.
?Our violent offenders, we lock them up for a very long time ? rapists, murderers, child molesters,? said State Senator John Whitmire, Democrat of Houston and the chairman of the Senate?s Criminal Justice Committee. ?The problem was that we weren?t smart about nonviolent offenders. The Legislature finally caught up with the public.?
Mr. Whitmire gave an example.
?We have 5,500 D.W.I offenders in prison,? he said, including people caught driving under the influence who had not been in an accident. ?They?re in the general population. As serious as drinking and driving is, we should segregate them and give them treatment.?
The Pew report recommended diverting nonviolent offenders away from prison and using punishments short of reincarceration for minor or technical violations of probation or parole. It also urged states to consider earlier release of some prisoners.
Before the recent changes in Texas, Mr. Whitmire said, ?we were recycling nonviolent offenders?.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 9:20
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Re: The futility of gun control
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
It would not be surprising that the 'louder' voice on pro-gun ownership are affiliated or employed in the gun industry, remembering that the US has the highest gun related crime and the highest gun ownership - We love to feed the problem !


You mean, you can't possibly imagine that a human being may want to preserve his rights, and be able to defend himself and his family? Or hers, it matters not.

What a horrible world you live in.


Hey, fat-ass-bike, looka what I found: Gun Control Activist Protesting How Easy it is to Buy Guns, is a Rapist

Now, I believe you advance the logic "if someone defends something, it must be for some direct benefits".

Can it be applied to this case?
If not, - why?



Posted on: 2013/1/31 4:45
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AlexC wrote:
The point I'm trying to make with these smartass posts is that people will always find more efficient and brutal ways to murder each other. And our enemies in those other countries.

The real challenge is to change that mentality, culture and attitude. Maybe in the USA this will never change. Maybe we are different.


Of course we are different. Just look at how many millions of people the Europeans slaughtered in the XX century, and how many more millions died following the ideological fallacies from national-socialism to international-socialism that Europeans produced!

Did not happen here.
BTW, neither did it happen in Switzerland, - yet another armed-to-the-teeth country.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 4:26
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The point I'm trying to make with these smartass posts is that people will always find more efficient and brutal ways to murder each other. And our enemies in those other countries.

The real challenge is to change that mentality, culture and attitude. Maybe in the USA this will never change. Maybe we are different.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 3:37
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Its the standard manufactured weapons any knuckle-head can buy from any gun shop that is being used to kill innocent people - not some modified / new created ones which might be only used in gang related hits on each other

We've all been watching too much t.v. and fictious urban gang warfare crap.

You are most likely going to be killed by a weapon bought from walmart !

Posted on: 2013/1/31 3:33
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Here you go, Vigilante, found some Gun Porn:

http://www.glockforum.com/forum/f11/double-glock-carbine-18071/

someone will always find a way to make weapons more, shall we say, "efficient"

Posted on: 2013/1/31 3:21
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Yes I agree, the USA, and most other powers uses that exact reasoning as foreign policy. I can only speak for myself in the context of self defense.

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borisp wrote:
Quote:

AlexC wrote:
... I will probably be the last person to shoot another human being but, if it boils down to that, I can probably do it if someone is endangering my loved ones....


When you defend innocent people against an aggressor who is trying to murder them, your choice is not "to shoot a human being or not to shoot a human being".

Your choice is, - "to allow the aggressor to murder the innocent people, or to stop him".

Posted on: 2013/1/31 3:05
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AlexC wrote:
... I will probably be the last person to shoot another human being but, if it boils down to that, I can probably do it if someone is endangering my loved ones....


When you defend innocent people against an aggressor who is trying to murder them, your choice is not "to shoot a human being or not to shoot a human being".

Your choice is, - "to allow the aggressor to murder the innocent people, or to stop him".

Posted on: 2013/1/31 2:54
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I will put it this way: the government has guns, tanks, missiles, bombers, aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons, and let's assume "We" are the government.

If they have a right to have have weapons, then so do I. I will probably be the last person to shoot another human being but, if it boils down to that, I can probably do it if someone is endangering my loved ones.

So, we can live in a fantasy world where there are no weapons, including sharp toothpicks, but since most bad guys are armed, I would like to keep my weapons, too.

Just In Case.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 2:21
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It would not be surprising that the 'louder' voice on pro-gun ownership are affiliated or employed in the gun industry, remembering that the US has the highest gun related crime and the highest gun ownership - We love to feed the problem !


You mean, you can't possibly imagine that a human being may want to preserve his rights, and be able to defend himself and his family? Or hers, it matters not.

What a horrible world you live in.



Posted on: 2013/1/31 2:03
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"The Government's after me!! Well, maybe I'll have to lure them in?"

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/ ... -snatched-from-school-bus

Posted on: 2013/1/30 23:25
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It would not be surprising that the 'louder' voice on pro-gun ownership are affiliated or employed in the gun industry, remembering that the US has the highest gun related crime and the highest gun ownership - We love to feed the problem !

Posted on: 2013/1/30 23:04
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Frank_M writes:
You can?t make a connection between my supposed hatred of America and the 4th of July because: (1) hatred for any country is absurd,...

Hey, you explained that you celebrate some list that included genocide, slavery, etc, - that sounded like you blame those things not on specific acts of specific men, but on the very creation of this country. If this is not hatred, what is? Anyways, since you obviously do not want to develop this idea further, - let's assume I was wrong.

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Frank_M writes:
Their justification for gun ownership is based on the needs of 18th century colonists to preserve a young nation?s independence.,...


Not just. The idea came from the English common law, and it was enshrined in the British Bill of Rights, and even then it was not new. The justification for free man to have arms since time immemorial has been, - an ability to defend oneself, - against common criminals just as against an oppressive government.

And the justification was never an "independence". Nobody wanted an independence for the sake of independence. They tried to restore their rights within the system, before they realized they the Government is not going to give them back. Independence, like arms, - was just a tool toward the goal of not having a tyranny. The British crown was not a foreign power, - it was their own government that they revolted against.

Quote:
Frank_M writes:
This isn't the 1700?s and the national position on firearms cannot be singlehandedly dictated by 18th century attitudes, needs, and practices


What? How do you mean? The crime has disappeared somewhere between then and now? A new way to keep a budding tyranny in check has been discovered? Do tell!

And it is not a "position on firearms". It is a "position on a fundamental God-given right of everyone to defend their lives"

Quote:
Mouse wrote:
And, this can be finessed: only make 'bad' bullets (like hollow points) harder to obtain,


Do you know why police uses hollow points? Hint, - it is not because they are evil. It is because they are responsible. Three reasons:
(a) less ricochet, - thus fewer chances to harm an innocent bystander.
(b) less penetration, - thus fewer chances to harm an innocent bystander.
(c) greater probability that an aggressor will be stopped with fewer bullets, - thus less need to shoot him multiple times, and fewer chances to harm an innocent bystander.

Your problem is, - you get your information from the most ignorant lot there is, - journalists. If you read any books by Massad Ayoob (google him), you'd know that using anything but the hollow points for self-defense is just irresponsible.

Oh, and, by the way, - do you really think that a criminal will not be able to get bullets??? Bullets are like the second easiest thing to make - after the high-capacity magazine, which is but a box with a spring.

Posted on: 2013/1/30 22:50
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Quote:

fat-ass-bike wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/databl ... /gun-crime-map-statistics

Why is it that the US has the highest gun related crimes in the world and also the highest gun ownership ? Logic would suggest that we reduce gun ownership, but we increase it - We sure are a dumb nation lacking logic and common-sense !

The link gives statistics on gun related violence / crime - NJ is up there as one of the worse .... yippey !

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/databl ... jan/10/gun-crime-us-state


NJ is among the top 5 as gun restrictive states....how can it be high in gun crimes?....more gun laws = less gun crimes?....ain't that the magic formula?....

Posted on: 2013/1/30 22:25
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Mouse wrote:
We have a 200 year supply of guns, but only a 3 year supply of bullets. The answer seems obvious.

NY Times article on this topic



Chris Rock beat you to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II

Posted on: 2013/1/30 16:43
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Re: The futility of gun control
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boris, your ability to fight strawmen is truly admirable.

Posted on: 2013/1/30 16:31
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