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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Yes, I went out of my way to be insulting because he picked on one of the things that I find insulting. His claim that marriage is specifically a religious concept. I'm tired of being told that marriage belongs to religion and its implication that I'm only in a civil union since religion isn't part of my life. So yes, I'm offended, and yes I'm continuously offended by people telling me I'm not a whole person because I don't believe in your god.

The reality is, Atheists are the least protected minority in this country. One of us, at least one of us who proclaims being an atheist, will never have the chance to to be President in my foreseeable lifetime. I'm proud to be part of a country that finally elected an African American, we've also had a Catholic President, and nominated a Jew and a woman for Vice-President. But I really doubt we'll ever see an Atheist on anyone's ticket, since the overwhelming litmus test for any political office is religion.

So yes, I find myself offended by religion all the time. I didn't start out as a militant atheist, but the moment a Latin teacher tried to force me to say the lord's prayer, the moment co-workers called me immoral for not believing in god, politicians taking away women's reproductive rights, politicians trying to force the ten commandments and other religious icons into city halls or other public spaces, the phrase "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, the statement "in god we trust," the forcing of mythology over science in our classrooms, and so many other issues have forced me into being a militant atheist.

Posted on: 2012/4/11 11:41
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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It's funny how CAPnJon was very polite and went out of his or her way to make his points by being reasonable. To be even more clear CapnJon cited your own words in trying to demonstrate his views....without bending or misconstruing them. Yet, MScottc you go out of your way to be rather mean and petty.

I will say it again. It's not religion nor atheism that is the problem....it's man/woman.

Posted on: 2012/4/11 10:55
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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CapnJon wrote:
Hi MScottC!

Glad you're happily married! (isn't modern marraige a construct of religions? or do you have a civil union?)

And obviously, you're a smart guy, and I don't doubt that we'd have a great discussion.

Having said that, here are your words (not mine):
"Of course who ever claimed belief in a mythological "all powerful old man up in the sky who controls everything" was sensible? Oh wait, all you believers." Thanks for the insult.

"It also is a great method to control the masses." I'm not being controlled, thanks.

"Bullshit... Atheists have never once asked you not to believe in god. We've never stopped you from partaking in your religion. " Sure, you've never stopped me, but so far, you've continually insulted me, while i've done nothing of the sort to you.

and for: "Please don't pretend to understand what Atheists do and don't do..... And I'd tend to believe our minds are open to a whole lot more as we aren't slaves to the thoughts of the clerics ruling our lives and our thought processes." Wow - i haven't pretended anything about what Atheists do and don't do. Neither should you judge me... as for being a slave? No, not that either, once again, thanks for the insult.

"....treat others like I want to be treated. " So, you can posture as being better than others since you're an Atheist, but no one else can make a comment about Atheism? And you can insult anyone who doesn't agree with you? Hmmm... interesting beliefs!

Not here to get in a fight, I'm just pointing out where I think you're being a tad hypocritical.

Have a nice day!



Marriage is a LEGAL CONTRACT which is not always religious. And quite frankly I'm sick and tired of you people of religion telling us it belongs exclusively to you. I am not in a civil union, I'm in a marriage made legal by the laws of (in my case since my wife was born there and she wanted to be married in her home town) Nevada. And since marriage is a legal contract it should belong to all people who want to make that commitment to each other. And that includes gays.

Now since you seem to want insults. I'm sick and tired of religious wingnuts calling me immoral and heathen. I know not all god believers are wingnuts, but quite a few of you are. And you seem to be one who takes the cake. I've done nothing to punish you or your people, I've just stated facts and opinions. I also don't want your mythology forced on those of us who don't believe in god, or those of us who believe in a different god or gods.

Posted on: 2012/4/11 10:37
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Hi MScottC!

Glad you're happily married! (isn't modern marraige a construct of religions? or do you have a civil union?)

And obviously, you're a smart guy, and I don't doubt that we'd have a great discussion.

Having said that, here are your words (not mine):
"Of course who ever claimed belief in a mythological "all powerful old man up in the sky who controls everything" was sensible? Oh wait, all you believers." Thanks for the insult.

"It also is a great method to control the masses." I'm not being controlled, thanks.

"Bullshit... Atheists have never once asked you not to believe in god. We've never stopped you from partaking in your religion. " Sure, you've never stopped me, but so far, you've continually insulted me, while i've done nothing of the sort to you.

and for: "Please don't pretend to understand what Atheists do and don't do..... And I'd tend to believe our minds are open to a whole lot more as we aren't slaves to the thoughts of the clerics ruling our lives and our thought processes." Wow - i haven't pretended anything about what Atheists do and don't do. Neither should you judge me... as for being a slave? No, not that either, once again, thanks for the insult.

"....treat others like I want to be treated. " So, you can posture as being better than others since you're an Atheist, but no one else can make a comment about Atheism? And you can insult anyone who doesn't agree with you? Hmmm... interesting beliefs!

Not here to get in a fight, I'm just pointing out where I think you're being a tad hypocritical.

Have a nice day!

Posted on: 2012/4/11 3:27
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Yvonne wrote:
People on this website sometimes have selective memories, millions died in communist atheist country called the Soviet Union. This former empire outlawed religion, killed more than 1,200 priests, stole church property and it estimated to have murdered 20 million people. It encouraged children to turn it their members if the children discovered their families saying or teaching prayers. Neither, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini were religious figures, two of them were known atheists but they slaughter millions. The death figures are staggering over 60 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties million people died. While the Catholic Church is facing scandal now as it did in the past, more young men are entering the seminary. http://www.dioceseofnashville.com/a-priesthood-growing.htm/
Religion and alive and well!


Let me take a stab at this. Hitler and Stalin persecuted organized religions because they were totalitarian mass murderers, and religious establishments were a threat to their power. This argument has nothing to do with whether atheism is good/bad, or whatever. Nazi troops wore Gott Mit Uns insignia; they exterminated whole peoples in the name of ideology, not atheism...

Posted on: 2012/4/10 23:55
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Yvonne wrote:
People on this website sometimes have selective memories, millions died in communist atheist country called the Soviet Union. This former empire outlawed religion, killed more than 1,200 priests, stole church property and it estimated to have murdered 20 million people. It encouraged children to turn it their members if the children discovered their families saying or teaching prayers. Neither, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini were religious figures, two of them were known atheists but they slaughter millions. The death figures are staggering over 60 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties million people died. While the Catholic Church is facing scandal now as it did in the past, more young men are entering the seminary. http://www.dioceseofnashville.com/a-priesthood-growing.htm/
Religion and alive and well!


Yvonne...
I know people died in communist countries. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Communist countries aren't atheist because the leaders didn't believe in god, they were atheists because they didn't want their people looking to god or religion as things to distract them from being loyal to the dictators. Lack of god was never the cause of violence, it was just a means to an end. Nobody kills based on "My lack of god is better than your god."

Posted on: 2012/4/10 22:35
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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CapnJon wrote:
the day an Atheist can speak to me about their beliefs without name calling, ridiculing, or bashing religion, i'll listen.

So far, i've never met a single one who doesn't immediately jump to nastiness.




have a nice day!


Captain John, anytime you want to have a conversation, I will. I happen to be happily married to a very spiritual person, a woman who was raised both Jewish and Christian, runs online bible courses and assists at an online church. We are constantly debating the whole religious thing, and I can assure you if I were nasty, If I did all the things you accuse atheists of, she would have left me a long time ago.

Posted on: 2012/4/10 22:30
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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the day an Atheist can speak to me about their beliefs without name calling, ridiculing, or bashing religion, i'll listen.

So far, i've never met a single one who doesn't immediately jump to nastiness.




have a nice day!

Posted on: 2012/4/10 18:12
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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I am going to wade into this explosive discussion, now that even Karl Marx was dragged into it (btw, KM may have gotten it right on religion, but his batting record on economics has not been great, to say the least...;)).

Anyway, back to religion. I happen to be a 100% atheist, and I would love to live in a religion-free society.

The problem is - how do you raise young kids as atheists?

I mean, it takes major balls for ADULTS to reject the crutch, realize and admit that there is no afterlife, that all we have on this earth is this life, after which there is NOTHING.

Religions exploit this basic human fear - nothingness after death - and they promise all kinds of after-death BS, heaven, virgins, nirvana, reincarnation, what-have you.

All BS and intellectual terrorism.

But how do you explain the no-afterlife to kids? They would be terrified. So parents, even though they know it is BS, feed religion to kids.

I think the "kid issue" is a big part of why religions still persevere.

Posted on: 2012/4/10 17:59
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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people who are anti-religion, anti-God, or self-proclaimed atheists love to blame all bad things on organized religion....

problem is - conflict and greed exists everywhere - religion or not - since time has been recorded!

Human nature - IMHO - is inherently bad - people are greedy.

It is fairly impossible to point out ANY civilization in the history of the world that has actually been utopian, peaceful, and without problems brought on by human nature.

I think you can apply the same thing to ideologies like Communism or Socialism - i think, in theory, they are great, but once human beings (and human nature) get involved, the purity of the thought and movement gets diluted and damaged.


I don't think religion civilized society, nor do I think that (as many people on this board say) that it's a tool to control the masses.

I think those of us who are surrounded by good people, kind people, nice people - are lucky, in that we've found people with a good human nature... but i think we're the exception to the rule....

Posted on: 2012/4/10 17:28
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Religion is the opium of the people...All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class. - Marx

Marx was right. But the movement went about it in the wrong way and let power and authority take priority over human rights and dignity.

You can't force people to give up their religion, but you can educate them.

Posted on: 2012/4/10 16:34
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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People on this website sometimes have selective memories, millions died in communist atheist country called the Soviet Union. This former empire outlawed religion, killed more than 1,200 priests, stole church property and it estimated to have murdered 20 million people. It encouraged children to turn it their members if the children discovered their families saying or teaching prayers. Neither, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini were religious figures, two of them were known atheists but they slaughter millions. The death figures are staggering over 60 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties million people died. While the Catholic Church is facing scandal now as it did in the past, more young men are entering the seminary. http://www.dioceseofnashville.com/a-priesthood-growing.htm/
Religion and alive and well!

Posted on: 2012/4/10 16:24
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Like others on this thread, I don't believe religion civilized society. I think people's natural hunger for learning, freedom, justice and keeping the fruits of their labor, has contributed more to civilization than any organized religion. What religion created the agricultural, industrial, technological revolutions? The printing press? Pax Romana? Magna Carta? Plato's Republic and seeds of democracy? Henry Ford? Bill Gates? Religion, is just one of many forces like science, commerce and nationalism, that can shape civilization for good and bad.

Having said this, I think the OP GBIMC movement could be a force for positive change in JC. I may disagree with someone's beliefs, but I can still respect their goals. By saying "GBIMC", they're really saying they believe there is hope for JC.

Amen to that.

Posted on: 2012/4/9 1:33
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Yvonne wrote:
This is part of a web site that I have on the violation of the first amendment concerning religion.


Dear Yvonne, I do not understand the above.

Posted on: 2012/4/9 1:06
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Yvonne,
No one with any sensibility ever said religion never did any good... There have been many wonderful things done by people of religion and spirituality. That however does not make god real. Nor does it eliminate all the horrible things done in the name of "my god" vs "your god."

Posted on: 2012/4/9 0:00
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Yvonne wrote:Religion civilized society.


Puhleeeeeeeeeze !!!

Millions have died in wars in the name of religion. And millions of dollars have been paid out in settlements by the Catholic Church to the victims of pedophile priests.

The Catholic Church may have done many good things but their coverups of the abuse of children is a disgrace and a crime against humanity.

Posted on: 2012/4/8 23:55
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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This is part of a web site that I have on the violation of the first amendment concerning religion.
While the different kingdoms of Europe were pouring their money into arms, the Catholic Churches throughout Europe built hospitals and universities. And the people who taught at these universities were basically members of religious orders. Below is a small sample of religious people who shaped the unknown into modern science:

?Benedictine monk Basil Valentino is the founder of modern chemical pharmacology;
?Nicolas Copernicus was a faithful clergyman, who wrote poems in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary, is credited for modern astronomy;
?Father Piazzi discovered asteroids, he catalog over 7,000 stars;
?St. Thomas Aquinas wrote three treaties on chemical subjects and coined the term amalgam;
?Father Athanasius Kircher, SJ, scientist, recognize the presence what we now call microbes;
?Bishop Nicholas Stensen discovered the duct of the parotid gland;
?Father Abbe Hauy, father of Crystallography demonstrated electrical phenomena with lightning;
?Professor Gordon, Benedictine monk constructed first practical electrical machine;
?Augustian monk Gregor Mendel is the father of heredity.

Furthermore, Civil Rights in the 1960's happened because the Black Christian Churches were the backbone of the movement.

Religion civilized society.

Posted on: 2012/4/8 22:16
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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HAPPY EASTER/PASSOVER EVERYONE! :)

Posted on: 2012/4/7 3:11
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Now that we have reached the Easter season I strongly recommend that everyone watch the South Park Easter Special with Pope Benedict and Bill Donohue (of the Catholic League). It's a classic.

Posted on: 2012/4/6 21:32
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Now that I skimmed thru this thread, maybe I should change my avatar pict. <----------- That poor dog is being forced to pray!!!

Posted on: 2012/4/6 20:10
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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mscottc wrote:
Atheism doesn't reject the existence of established belief systems, it rejects the existence of deities. No atheist in his right mind will deny the existence of any of the religions out there, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindu, etc all exist. The fact that they all exist, and they all claim to be right only adds to our claim that none of them are right. Do those religions work for you, sure, just the same as believing in Santa Claus works for children. It gives you hope, an explanation of things, and something to live or work for. It also is a great method to control the masses. If you don't behave, santa won't bring your presents, if you don't behave, you'll go to hell.

And again I ask you to not presume what I ponder, how I form my opinions and how I challenge the things I don't know.


My mistake. I meant to write the dismissal of established belief systems, not the existence of. Obviously those systems exist.

Beyond its strict definition, atheism indeed tends to dismiss the value of a particular irrational system of understanding just at the point where our rational systems become ineffective. However, our capacity for irrational thought is a fundamental component of who we are, one that often rewards us with surprisingly keen insight. The point I?m making is that atheism as practiced by most individuals, where it rejects more than just the existence of deities, is not that significant a triumph over "belief" for exactly this reason.

I realize that organized religion as a control mechanism is a real phenomenon, but it's also a different topic.

Posted on: 2012/4/6 14:44
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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CatDog wrote:
]I might think they're crazy and playing a joke, but so long as they're not going on the internet calling people idiots, and trying to pass laws based on flying spaghettiology, I honestly don't care.


Well there you go. A lot of non-believers see religious people the exact same way. Believing in something with zero evidence to back it up is a little "crazy" in my eyes. The point being made is that a "flying spaghetti monster" is no more valid or believable than any "god."

Posted on: 2012/4/6 14:41
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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CatDog wrote:
At least most other religions are based on beliefs from thousands of years ago when people didn't understand much. Pastafarianism and Jedi and all that crap are based on jokes or movies. But really, what does it matter to me what people say they worship?


CatDog, ever hear of the concept of "Parody"? While I can't speak of "Jedi" I can tell you that Pastafarianism is totally a parody, a joke meant to show the silliness of belief in deities. There is no one who seriously believes in the "Great Flying Spaghetti Monster."

Posted on: 2012/4/6 11:09
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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At least most other religions are based on beliefs from thousands of years ago when people didn't understand much. Pastafarianism and Jedi and all that crap are based on jokes or movies. But really, what does it matter to me what people say they worship?

Posted on: 2012/4/6 2:45
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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Mr_Johnson wrote:
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CatDog wrote:
But just because one group is being jerky doesn't mean that the other side being a jerk is the best way to approach things. The people in here insulting the religious and calling them crazy, stupid, destructive, and so on are just as bad as obnoxious religious people trying to force their beliefs on others.


What gets me is that if someone told you they believed a "flying spaghetti monster" was real, and worshipped and prayed to it, most people would indeed call that person crazy. But when someone says the exact same thing, only substitutes "god" then you are insulting them and not being understanding and tolerant. The sad truth is that there is no more proof that a "god" exists than a "flying spaghetti monster."
I might think they're crazy and playing a joke, but so long as they're not going on the internet calling people idiots, and trying to pass laws based on flying spaghettiology, I honestly don't care.

Posted on: 2012/4/6 2:43
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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mscottc wrote:
Oh, and for the record, I have no problem with anyone believing anything they want. Just don't foist your beliefs on me, and don't force your morality based on a deity on me. I'm pretty proud of the morality I already have that is based on one simple principle, treat others like I want to be treated. I'm not driven to that by fear of god, just common sense.
And while I'm 99% sure there is no god, I'm human, therefore I realize I don't know everything, and therefore anything is possible. That however means that Jupiter and Zeus are just as possible as Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, Hindu, or Buddha; unlikely, but possible. I also ask you to not presume to know how or what atheists like myself think.
.


I don?t presume to know what anyone literally thinks, but because atheism only rejects the existence of established belief systems and what are typically anthropomorphic deities, it doesn?t compel an individual to form or challenge their own views of the apparently unknowable. Whether that?s important to you is your business, but simply rejecting the existence what you call the ?all powerful old man up in the sky who controls everything,? is only slightly more enlightened than not believing in Santa. That?s why it?s a terribly ironic, unproductive debate.



Atheism doesn't reject the existence of established belief systems, it rejects the existence of deities. No atheist in his right mind will deny the existence of any of the religions out there, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindu, etc all exist. The fact that they all exist, and they all claim to be right only adds to our claim that none of them are right. Do those religions work for you, sure, just the same as believing in Santa Claus works for children. It gives you hope, an explanation of things, and something to live or work for. It also is a great method to control the masses. If you don't behave, santa won't bring your presents, if you don't behave, you'll go to hell.

And again I ask you to not presume what I ponder, how I form my opinions and how I challenge the things I don't know.

Posted on: 2012/4/6 1:38
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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CatDog wrote:
But just because one group is being jerky doesn't mean that the other side being a jerk is the best way to approach things. The people in here insulting the religious and calling them crazy, stupid, destructive, and so on are just as bad as obnoxious religious people trying to force their beliefs on others.


What gets me is that if someone told you they believed a "flying spaghetti monster" was real, and worshipped and prayed to it, most people would indeed call that person crazy. But when someone says the exact same thing, only substitutes "god" then you are insulting them and not being understanding and tolerant. The sad truth is that there is no more proof that a "god" exists than a "flying spaghetti monster."

Posted on: 2012/4/5 20:30
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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mscottc wrote:

And "In God We Trust" on our money isn't insulting for those of us who don't believe?
And "One nation under god" isn't insulting for those of us who don't believe?
And the push to teach "Intelligent Design" in our schools isn't insulting for those of us who don't believe?
And being offered a bible to swear on in court isn't insulting for those of us who don't believe?
And EVERY politician having to prove their spirituality to have any shot at being elected isn't insulting for those of us who don't believe?

The list goes on and on.
oh absolutely it is. The money and pledge stuff is especially bad because it was the result of McCarthy scaring, intimidating, and bullying everybody in the country.

But just because one group is being jerky doesn't mean that the other side being a jerk is the best way to approach things. The people in here insulting the religious and calling them crazy, stupid, destructive, and so on are just as bad as obnoxious religious people trying to force their beliefs on others.

Posted on: 2012/4/5 20:06
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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kencares wrote:
Religion deserves no respect. Religion is the number one destructive force in society. Almost all our woes can be tied back to it. You shouldn't be persecuted for practicing, but when it comes to recruiting others for your loony barn, Atheists have a duty to warn against drinking the Kool-Aid.


If you were able to rescue the masses and free them from their crippling faith, which do you think they would be more likely to fill the void with? Wisdom or Chicken McNuggets and American Idol?

Posted on: 2012/4/5 15:23
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Re: God belongs on the streets in Jersey City
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mscottc wrote:
Oh, and for the record, I have no problem with anyone believing anything they want. Just don't foist your beliefs on me, and don't force your morality based on a deity on me. I'm pretty proud of the morality I already have that is based on one simple principle, treat others like I want to be treated. I'm not driven to that by fear of god, just common sense.
And while I'm 99% sure there is no god, I'm human, therefore I realize I don't know everything, and therefore anything is possible. That however means that Jupiter and Zeus are just as possible as Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, Hindu, or Buddha; unlikely, but possible. I also ask you to not presume to know how or what atheists like myself think.
.


I don?t presume to know what anyone literally thinks, but because atheism only rejects the existence of established belief systems and what are typically anthropomorphic deities, it doesn?t compel an individual to form or challenge their own views of the apparently unknowable. Whether that?s important to you is your business, but simply rejecting the existence what you call the ?all powerful old man up in the sky who controls everything,? is only slightly more enlightened than not believing in Santa. That?s why it?s a terribly ironic, unproductive debate.

Posted on: 2012/4/5 15:06
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