JERSEY CITY LIST - Re: Embankment- Update Thread [Main Forum]

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

#498

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Quote:

JPhurst wrote:
I think some people don't know what the word "NIMBY" means.

I agree. Some people don't. But I do.

In the Embankment case, NIMBY means that the local residents don't want Hyman to build housing across 6th Street.

So they came up with a cockamamie park idea for which every JC resident must pay. And Healy bought into it, probably to buy some votes - for my money.

Simple as that.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 21:28

JPhurst

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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I think some people don't know what the word "NIMBY" means.

Property values are enhanced by amenities, including parks. The fact that some people's property values will be increased if there is a park nearby seems like a good thing.

As Sammy notes above, downtown is not lacking in development in either the near or distant future.

People may have noticed that, over the last decade, almost all the development has occurred downtown, enough that portions of Ward E are now being severed off.

As for the light rail, let's summarize this, once again. There were, at one time, suggestions that light rail go over the Embankment (or alongside it on 6th Street) to Secaucus, possibly making stops at Secaucus X-fer, somewhere along Harmon Cove, and a Meadowlands Stadium park and ride. There are some potential benefits to this, but...

1) NJ Transit has expressed no interest in this in quite some time. The priority, rightly, I believe, is on the Northern Corridor Project (going from North Bergen to Englewood or Tenafly). The other identified priority is going from West Side Avenue across Rte 440 to serve communities and potential development along the Hackensack River.

2) In addition, although not impossible, connecting this stub to the existing system would take lots of rerouting and infrastructure. A heck of a lot more money than the park, to say the least.

3) To the extent there was going to be light rail through Secaucus to the Meadowlands, there was significantly more support to go west from North Bergen.

In short, the Embankment extension to Secaucus barely got out of fantasy-mapping land, and did so only briefly. Opposing a park because a light rail would be better is pointless, because the result would be neither.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 21:21

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

#496

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Quote:

kencares wrote:
Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
The embankment park will be awesome for the handful of property owners who's backyards are private enclaves because of the rock wall abutting against them.

You are so wrong. People living next to the Embankment dread the idea of a park. Do you want to have the high line in your back yard?

The park will be great for people who want to go though downtown and from properties nearby but not affected by it. Just wait until the complaints about the park from people living right on it. Some houses actually touch the Embankment.

Property owners will have a lot to gain if the embankment is made into a park permanently ensuring the existence of the embankment. I'll concede that some of the current residents might dread the park option, but they are quantifiably wrong. The values of their properties will rise with the presence of a park whether the residents want the park or not.

Or put another way, I'm glad you decided to bring the high line to this argument:

"Real estate owners along the first High Line segment, a large chunk of which spans the meatpacking district, said they were already starting to feel the park?s positive effects on real estate values."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/rea ... hline.html?pagewanted=all

So yeah, I guess some people who live there will whine and complain, but their property values are probably still going to rise if that's a park rather than new development or a light rail line.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:55

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
The embankment park will be awesome for the handful of property owners who's backyards are private enclaves because of the rock wall abutting against them. But this will be a very expensive project to get anywhere near the kind of usability that the High Line has since it involves building a whole bunch of connector bridges from each section. If you really want to build a park bridge, the Morris Canal walkway link between the Colgate Clock and the peninsula seems a better use of funds given that its one of only four short holes between Port Liberte and Weehawken.

Agree 100%, and I would urge the City to spend the $$$ on the Morris Canal Park, where a lot of JC residents gather to admire the NYC views, rather than on this "private" vision of a secluded Embankment park.

Ask me for $$$ for a Morris Canal Park or LSP improvements, and I will gladly pay, but not for this NIMBY project.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:40

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
The embankment park will be awesome for the handful of property owners who's backyards are private enclaves because of the rock wall abutting against them.

You are so wrong. People living next to the Embankment dread the idea of a park. Do you want to have the high line in your back yard?

The park will be great for people who want to go though downtown and from properties nearby but not affected by it. Just wait until the complaints about the park from people living right on it. Some houses actually touch the Embankment.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:35

JPhurst

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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I simply do not understand what people are talking about when they say "private park." Like any park, the Embankment will be open to the public. Like any park, some people will live closer to it than others. That doesn't make it any less public than Van Vorst Park downtown, than Dr. Ercel-Webb Park in Lafayette, or Pershing Field Park in the Heights.

The Embankment is much larger than most of the City parks in the system, and on top of that it has value as a connection. Right now it runs through two neighborhoods by itself, and the ultimate plan is to connect it to the Bergen Arches, and make it a part of the East Coast Greenway, connecting Florida to Maine.

The support the Embankment Preservation Commission received from the Rails to Trails Conservancy, as well as the East Coast Greenway Alliance (which actually had its very well attended annual conference in Jersey City several years ago) demonstrates that the interest goes beyond the few neighbors of the park.

Was Reservoir #3 in the Heights just a "private park" catering to neighborhood residents? I don't think so, and judging from the people who come by on summer weekends, they don't either.

I don't live right by the Embankment but would love to use it. And if traffic along Jersey Avenue is calmed, you could have a beautiful string of parks going from Hamilton Park, to the Embankment, to Van Vorst Park, to Liberty State Park.

This is great news for the City of Jersey City.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:31

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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One more thing... You might not have noticed, but the Embankment forms a ramp to the heights. It is nearly ground level at Marin, and around 3 stories high at the end, where it used to convert to a bridge to the heights. It is really quite a fantastic structure if you step back and look at the big picture.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:29

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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The embankment park will be awesome for the handful of property owners who's backyards are private enclaves because of the rock wall abutting against them. But this will be a very expensive project to get anywhere near the kind of usability that the High Line has since it involves building a whole bunch of connector bridges from each section. If you really want to build a park bridge, the Morris Canal walkway link between the Colgate Clock and the peninsula seems a better use of funds given that its one of only four short holes between Port Liberte and Weehawken.

And yes, linking a light rail line westward to Secaucus would be a very useful extension as well.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:29

JCbiscuit

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Quote:

JCbiscuit wrote:

While the benefits of an Embankment park might not be shared equally with everyone, the consequences of another massive influx of hi-rises - and their occupants - would most definitely be felt by all. At least, anyone who uses sewers, roads, police and fire services, the PATH train...

Taking major real estate development off the table is a positive step for the Embankment, whether it ends up as a park, a light rail, or a series of weed-filled stones.

You may not want to so hastily condone limiting development downtown. First, as real estate development is restricted, prices will rise. That might be great if you are an existing homeowner with a rising income. But that's not so great for renters are people on a fixed income.

Second, given that the sewer system will probably need a serious upgrade based on its age and design, it might be better to have more households to spread that cost out across rather than fewer. The same goes for roadways, particularly if a higher percentage of new residents rely on mass transit rather than on cars; they'll all contribute to road maintenance but not all of them will use the roadways. Police and fire services scale; the more people feeding the base, the cheaper the services are.

Third, by increasing the population, Jersey City gains political clout when it comes to getting state and federal dollars invested in the city for projects like PATH and NJTransit Light Rail.

Fourth, many of the businesses and amenities that are so often talked about require a larger customer base. You want a luxury grocery store featuring organic food at reasonable prices? Yeah, good luck with that without adding more people to serve as customers. Want more restaurants, more shops on Newark Avenue? Yeah, those places need customers to support them.

So yes, congratulations [begin slow clap] that developing the embankment is looking less likely.

My opinion was not hastily met. Not by a longshot. It's the result of watching JC get built up rapidly, with no long-term plan other than lining the pockets of those in City Hall.

Spreading the cost of upgrades is a sound idea, but with Healy and his cronies handing out tax abatements like Halloween candy, we're not seeing that influx of cash. Also, we've already got plenty of new developments that remain unfilled.

When local businesses try to get a foothold, they get their permits withheld until the right hands are greased, and don't have a chance to make it (textbook example: Ox). So storefronts on Newark remain empty, and the new residents continue to shop and dine in NYC before heading home to their poorly-constructed, tax-abated bedroom in Jersey City.

So I will indeed clap over the fact that the last strip of green in Jersey City won't get bulldozed in an effort to feed the hungry mouths of a bloated administration that has no pride in its city whatsoever.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:26

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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The Embankment as a park/light rail/walking path would make it easier and nicer for people from the heights to get to the mall, Shoprite, and PATH at Newport.

It is quite different from your typical property.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:19

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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^^

Hamilton Park is like a private park.

Only people from within a few blocks use it.

OK, so the Embankment is 50% larger.

It still will be a limited-use-park for most JC residents.

JC is wrong to ask all JC taxpayers to pay for it.

The city is broke already.

Let the residents from the few blocks around it to pay, and I will be cool with it.

Otherwise it is a con in which a few take everybody's money.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:15

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Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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People who say the Embankment is small don't know what they are talking about. The Embankment is 50% larger than Hamilton Park. It stretches from the Newport Mall, all the way to Healy's Tavern at the Western edge of Downtown. It is worth way more than 7 million. Hyman knows this and won't let it go for anywhere near that paltry amount. The city would be best off letting him develop it in conjunction with the Embankment Coalition and the city planners to create something special and workable for the city. The city can't afford to buy it and develop the Embankment on its own. The best they can do is zone it as "Transportation Only" (pedestrian, bike, or trains) and prevent anything from happening until future generations can afford to turn it into a light rail. Look at the Embankment next to Hamilton park on the map and you can see how big it is:

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:06

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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Quote:

PathH8Tr wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

PathH8Tr wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

corybraiterman wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
I bet the people complaining about a park on the embankment being a waste of money also probably thought the light rail was a waste of money.

Nice strawman. However, public transportation actually assists thousands of people daily, as well as helps link communities. Kindly tell me how Greenville or Bayonne or Exchange Place or Hoboken benefits from this.

A 5-block by half a block park serves very few people in one small neighborhood and will obviously cost truckloads of money.

Yep - an equivalent of Gramercy Park for the residents of 6th St brownstones....

Yeah, yeah - I know it will be open to all....

But in reality it will be a private park - elevated and small.

What a con the Embankment Coalition has pulled...

Unbelievable.

StillinJC: Do you own a home here in downtown Jersey City?

I'm very curious about how you think this will be a private park. Can you back this up with information based on why you think this?

How small is small for you? Do you have square footage to validate your definition? Smaller than a car? Bigger than a bread box?

Define con, and please specify with more information on this said "con". Have you followed this entire process and read all the paperwork on it? All I am reading is opinion and I'm suspect of the motivations. It reads more like passive aggressive hostility. But I'd love to understand your comments if you can back it up with concrete fact.

"StillinJC: Do you own a home here in downtown Jersey City?"

No.

"I'm very curious about how you think this will be a private park. Can you back this up with information based on why you think this?"

Read my post - I said it will be LIKE a private park. Open to all, but very small, and fairly inaccessible due to elevation.

"How small is small for you? Do you have square footage to validate your definition? Smaller than a car? Bigger than a bread box? "

About the size of the Embankment.

"Define con, and please specify with more information on this said "con"."

Con is having a whole city pay for an insignifcant and tiny and inaccesible park, only because the 6th street yuppies don't want the developer to build housing across the street. I will refuse to pay for that. The park is a strawman for NIMBY brownstone owners.

It is so obvious.

Thanks. Your opinion initially seemed shallow and without merit. Glad I had you spend your time writing it out in long form so I can understand that I was right. Btw, did you
know the term YUPPIE isn't a slur?

Thanks for the "meritorious" response.

You just proved you have absolutely no clue of what is going on.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:05

PathH8Tr

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

PathH8Tr wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

corybraiterman wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
I bet the people complaining about a park on the embankment being a waste of money also probably thought the light rail was a waste of money.

Nice strawman. However, public transportation actually assists thousands of people daily, as well as helps link communities. Kindly tell me how Greenville or Bayonne or Exchange Place or Hoboken benefits from this.

A 5-block by half a block park serves very few people in one small neighborhood and will obviously cost truckloads of money.

Yep - an equivalent of Gramercy Park for the residents of 6th St brownstones....

Yeah, yeah - I know it will be open to all....

But in reality it will be a private park - elevated and small.

What a con the Embankment Coalition has pulled...

Unbelievable.

StillinJC: Do you own a home here in downtown Jersey City?

I'm very curious about how you think this will be a private park. Can you back this up with information based on why you think this?

How small is small for you? Do you have square footage to validate your definition? Smaller than a car? Bigger than a bread box?

Define con, and please specify with more information on this said "con". Have you followed this entire process and read all the paperwork on it? All I am reading is opinion and I'm suspect of the motivations. It reads more like passive aggressive hostility. But I'd love to understand your comments if you can back it up with concrete fact.

"StillinJC: Do you own a home here in downtown Jersey City?"

No.

"I'm very curious about how you think this will be a private park. Can you back this up with information based on why you think this?"

Read my post - I said it will be LIKE a private park. Open to all, but very small, and fairly inaccessible due to elevation.

"How small is small for you? Do you have square footage to validate your definition? Smaller than a car? Bigger than a bread box? "

About the size of the Embankment.

"Define con, and please specify with more information on this said "con"."

Con is having a whole city pay for an insignifcant and tiny and inaccesible park, only because the 6th street yuppies don't want the developer to build housing across the street. I will refuse to pay for that. The park is a strawman for NIMBY brownstone owners.

It is so obvious.

Thanks. Your opinion initially seemed shallow and without merit. Glad I had you spend your time writing it out in long form so I can understand that I was right. Btw, did you know the term YUPPIE isn't a slur?

Posted on: 2012/2/6 20:00

SammyTheT

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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There will be 5,000 new residential units under construction downtown in the next 24 months, 103 more units at The Beacon this year, not to mention more than 1,000 in Journal Square.

We'll have rapidly increasing residential density without building on The Embankment.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 19:53

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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Quote:

DanL wrote:
and thank you Embankment Coalition for never wavering and bringing us this point and yes, thank you Mayor Healy, Corporate Council Matsikoudis and city staff who kept this effort going and not for nothing the tremendous support of the public that attended, spoke and testified on behalf of this project for more than a decade.

DanL - all the above rhetoric notwithstanding, just DON'T ask ME to pay for all this.

Can I opt out?

Or will my payment to support this "project" be mandatory?

Posted on: 2012/2/6 19:47

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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Also, the snow on Sixth Street as well as Grove/Manilla, Erie, Jersey and Coles is never shoveled properly and the sidewalks aren't maintained. That's a hazard that leaving the property in limbo for another twenty years while the city digs around looking for money to build a park won't fix.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 19:46

DanL

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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and thank you Embankment Coalition for never wavering and bringing us to this point and yes, thank you Mayor Healy, Corporate Counsel Matsikoudis and city staff who kept this effort going and not for nothing the tremendous support of the public that attended, spoke and testified on behalf of this project for more than a decade.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 19:40

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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Quote:

JCbiscuit wrote:

While the benefits of an Embankment park might not be shared equally with everyone, the consequences of another massive influx of hi-rises - and their occupants - would most definitely be felt by all. At least, anyone who uses sewers, roads, police and fire services, the PATH train...

Taking major real estate development off the table is a positive step for the Embankment, whether it ends up as a park, a light rail, or a series of weed-filled stones.

You may not want to so hastily condone limiting development downtown. First, as real estate development is restricted, prices will rise. That might be great if you are an existing homeowner with a rising income. But that's not so great for renters are people on a fixed income.

Second, given that the sewer system will probably need a serious upgrade based on its age and design, it might be better to have more households to spread that cost out across rather than fewer. The same goes for roadways, particularly if a higher percentage of new residents rely on mass transit rather than on cars; they'll all contribute to road maintenance but not all of them will use the roadways. Police and fire services scale; the more people feeding the base, the cheaper the services are.

Third, by increasing the population, Jersey City gains political clout when it comes to getting state and federal dollars invested in the city for projects like PATH and NJTransit Light Rail.

Fourth, many of the businesses and amenities that are so often talked about require a larger customer base. You want a luxury grocery store featuring organic food at reasonable prices? Yeah, good luck with that without adding more people to serve as customers. Want more restaurants, more shops on Newark Avenue? Yeah, those places need customers to support them.

So yes, congratulations [begin slow clap] that developing the embankment is looking less likely.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 19:31

DanL

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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Jersey City Settles Lawsuit With the 6th Street Embankment Purchaser, Intends To Make Land Part Of Larger Downtown Park Pending Council Approval

http://www.jerseycityindependent.com/ ... pending-council-approval/

"The city?s plan for the Embankment will make it part of a downtown park that ?bridges the Hudson Waterfront Walkway with the Hackensack Meadowlands, via the Bergen Arches,? according to the Embankment Coalition"

and ultimately, the East Coast Greenway - http://greenway.org/index.shtml

Posted on: 2012/2/6 19:25

JCbiscuit

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

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Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

PathH8Tr wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

corybraiterman wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
I bet the people complaining about a park on the embankment being a waste of money also probably thought the light rail was a waste of money.

Nice strawman. However, public transportation actually assists thousands of people daily, as well as helps link communities. Kindly tell me how Greenville or Bayonne or Exchange Place or Hoboken benefits from this.

A 5-block by half a block park serves very few people in one small neighborhood and will obviously cost truckloads of money.

Yep - an equivalent of Gramercy Park for the residents of 6th St brownstones....

Yeah, yeah - I know it will be open to all....

But in reality it will be a private park - elevated and small.

What a con the Embankment Coalition has pulled...

Unbelievable.

StillinJC: Do you own a home here in downtown Jersey City?

I'm very curious about how you think this will be a private park. Can you back this up with information based on why you think this?

How small is small for you? Do you have square footage to validate your definition? Smaller than a car? Bigger than a bread box?

Define con, and please specify with more information on this said "con". Have you followed this entire process and read all the paperwork on it? All I am reading is opinion and I'm suspect of the motivations. It reads more like passive aggressive hostility. But I'd love to understand your comments if you can back it up with concrete fact.

"StillinJC: Do you own a home here in downtown Jersey City?"

No.

"I'm very curious about how you think this will be a private park. Can you back this up with information based on why you think this?"

Read my post - I said it will be LIKE a private park. Open to all, but very small, and fairly inaccessible due to elevation.

"How small is small for you? Do you have square footage to validate your definition? Smaller than a car? Bigger than a bread box? "

About the size of the Embankment.

"Define con, and please specify with more information on this said "con"."

Con is having a whole city pay for an insignifcant and tiny and inaccesible park, only because the 6th street yuppies don't want the developer to build housing across the street. I will refuse to pay for that. The park is a strawman for NIMBY brownstone owners.

It is so obvious.

While the benefits of an Embankment park might not be shared equally with everyone, the consequences of another massive influx of hi-rises - and their occupants - would most definitely be felt by all. At least, anyone who uses sewers, roads, police and fire services, the PATH train...

Taking major real estate development off the table is a positive step for the Embankment, whether it ends up as a park, a light rail, or a series of weed-filled stones.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 19:15

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

#477

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Quote:

PathH8Tr wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

corybraiterman wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
I bet the people complaining about a park on the embankment being a waste of money also probably thought the light rail was a waste of money.

Nice strawman. However, public transportation actually assists thousands of people daily, as well as helps link communities. Kindly tell me how Greenville or Bayonne or Exchange Place or Hoboken benefits from this.

A 5-block by half a block park serves very few people in one small neighborhood and will obviously cost truckloads of money.

Yep - an equivalent of Gramercy Park for the residents of 6th St brownstones....

Yeah, yeah - I know it will be open to all....

But in reality it will be a private park - elevated and small.

What a con the Embankment Coalition has pulled...

Unbelievable.

StillinJC: Do you own a home here in downtown Jersey City?

I'm very curious about how you think this will be a private park. Can you back this up with information based on why you think this?

How small is small for you? Do you have square footage to validate your definition? Smaller than a car? Bigger than a bread box?

Define con, and please specify with more information on this said "con". Have you followed this entire process and read all the paperwork on it? All I am reading is opinion and I'm suspect of the motivations. It reads more like passive aggressive hostility. But I'd love to understand your comments if you can back it up with concrete fact.

"StillinJC: Do you own a home here in downtown Jersey City?"

No.

"I'm very curious about how you think this will be a private park. Can you back this up with information based on why you think this?"

Read my post - I said it will be LIKE a private park. Open to all, but very small, and fairly inaccessible due to elevation.

"How small is small for you? Do you have square footage to validate your definition? Smaller than a car? Bigger than a bread box? "

About the size of the Embankment.

"Define con, and please specify with more information on this said "con"."

Con is having a whole city pay for an insignifcant and tiny and inaccesible park, only because the 6th street yuppies don't want the developer to build housing across the street. I will refuse to pay for that. The park is a strawman for NIMBY brownstone owners.

It is so obvious.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 18:14

corybraiterman

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

#476

Home away from home

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Quote:

Vigilante wrote:
Who said I was addressing you?

Fair enough.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 16:36

Snibe

Re: Embankment- Update Thread

#475

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My vote still goes to just leaving it the hell alone. Don't put in condos the local infrastructure can't support, and don't try to turn it into a park that we can't afford, which even though would be a cool thing to have, would be nothing like the Highline in NYC.

Posted on: 2012/2/6 16:31