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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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A recent funding decision could mean rough water for a nonprofit group spearheading a campaign to relocate the USS Battleship New Jersey from its current home in Camden to Jersey City.

Earlier this month, the Delaware River Port Authority extended a $900,000 loan guarantee, which will prevent the Battleship ? which now operates as a museum ? from defaulting on a loan from TD Bank. The decision allows the entity that runs the museum in Camden and maintains the ship to have another three years to strengthen their operations and become financially viable. Momentum that had been building to relocate the Battleship New Jersey to Jersey City could be lost in that three-year period, although those who support relocation say they have no plans to abandon ship.

Read more: Hudson Reporter - Ripple effects Port Authority decision throws water on hopes to move famed ship to Jersey City

Battleship New Jersey

Posted on: 2012/6/24 4:53
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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I guess I should have expected that you'd have on your Rose tinted Ronnie specs, did you get them on Ebay?

Oh for sure, back in the 50's & 60's it would have been a great idea to tell the a paranoid nuclear armed nation, that had recently lost nearly 30 million dead in war, that you were out to destroy them. Get real!! It's so easy to say today crazy crap like that today, but those were different days. This is the reason Goldwater lost big in 64, people though he was going to start a nuclear war.

As for Putin, bullshit. He would have rolled the tanks just like they did in 56 & 68 & 79.

Quote:

borisp wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

borisp wrote:
Well, here is a thought:

If someone says "Let's break communism!"
And everyone else responds with "oh, no, it is impossible!"
If that someone says, - "here is HOW we are going to do that"
And everyone else responds with "oh, no it's impossible"

And then it happens exactly like that someone predicted.

And everyone else says "oh, but it didn't happen because of you, it happened on its own, we all knew it was going to happen..."


Well, sorry, but no. If you guys are really that smart - why did not you predict it BEFORE it happened?


How do you fit into your story the various people, like, oh, every single president, who had been working for and predicting the fall of the USSR for the previous 70 years? Just ahead of their time? Reagan's arms race was no different than the "missile gap" arms race of the late 50's or the space race. He won the musical chairs of doing it when the system was tired and had a leader who wasn't committed to keeping it going. I'll bet had Putin been in Gorbachev's seat things would have turned out differently.


Before Reagan, US presidents were trying "detente" and "containment". Not one of them ever, EVER - made it his goal to defeat and destroy the Communism.

Even the most dedicated anti-communist before Reagan, - Kennedy, - was too weak to finish even small things he started and backed every time in a face-off with Khrushef.

But even he, the one who was murdered by a communist, - never ever planned to destroy communism.

If you do not agree, - tell me which one president ever did plan to defeat communism.

Here are few choice quotes, and here is a bigger collection of contemporary quotes about Reagan.

As I said - it is very, very easy to proclaim that "oh, it is just HAPPENED when he was President". If that were true - why did journalists, politology professors, and politicians were so sure that Reagan was going to screw it up and the communism was impossible to defeat?

=======================================

Also, Reagan program was OH SO MUCH DIFFERENT! USSR was pushed to spend about half of the country resources to try to overcome USA. I was right there, - when me and most of my classmates were immediately assigned to one or another military project in this or that "research institution" right after graduation. I remember how the tone changed, and how hysterical our government had became.

As for Gorbachev, - sorry, but they picked Gorbachev solely because they needed someone new to deal with Reagan. Which was exactly what he did - started negotiation in order to shut down the SDI. And failed.

And then he tried to revamp the industry to squeeze some more juice out of communism - and failed there too.

As for Putin - nope, the result would have been the same. THose people are not religious fanatics. They are just like Hitler, - if nobody stops them, they attack. If they are shown that their attack will mean their destruction, - they retreat. Simple.

Posted on: 2012/2/13 18:28
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

borisp wrote:
Well, here is a thought:

If someone says "Let's break communism!"
And everyone else responds with "oh, no, it is impossible!"
If that someone says, - "here is HOW we are going to do that"
And everyone else responds with "oh, no it's impossible"

And then it happens exactly like that someone predicted.

And everyone else says "oh, but it didn't happen because of you, it happened on its own, we all knew it was going to happen..."


Well, sorry, but no. If you guys are really that smart - why did not you predict it BEFORE it happened?


How do you fit into your story the various people, like, oh, every single president, who had been working for and predicting the fall of the USSR for the previous 70 years? Just ahead of their time? Reagan's arms race was no different than the "missile gap" arms race of the late 50's or the space race. He won the musical chairs of doing it when the system was tired and had a leader who wasn't committed to keeping it going. I'll bet had Putin been in Gorbachev's seat things would have turned out differently.


Before Reagan, US presidents were trying "detente" and "containment". Not one of them ever, EVER - made it his goal to defeat and destroy the Communism.

Even the most dedicated anti-communist before Reagan, - Kennedy, - was too weak to finish even small things he started and backed every time in a face-off with Khrushef.

But even he, the one who was murdered by a communist, - never ever planned to destroy communism.

If you do not agree, - tell me which one president ever did plan to defeat communism.

Here are few choice quotes, and here is a bigger collection of contemporary quotes about Reagan.

As I said - it is very, very easy to proclaim that "oh, it is just HAPPENED when he was President". If that were true - why did journalists, politology professors, and politicians were so sure that Reagan was going to screw it up and the communism was impossible to defeat?

=======================================

Also, Reagan program was OH SO MUCH DIFFERENT! USSR was pushed to spend about half of the country resources to try to overcome USA. I was right there, - when me and most of my classmates were immediately assigned to one or another military project in this or that "research institution" right after graduation. I remember how the tone changed, and how hysterical our government had became.

As for Gorbachev, - sorry, but they picked Gorbachev solely because they needed someone new to deal with Reagan. Which was exactly what he did - started negotiation in order to shut down the SDI. And failed.

And then he tried to revamp the industry to squeeze some more juice out of communism - and failed there too.

As for Putin - nope, the result would have been the same. THose people are not religious fanatics. They are just like Hitler, - if nobody stops them, they attack. If they are shown that their attack will mean their destruction, - they retreat. Simple.

Posted on: 2012/2/12 2:22
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Well, judging by the tone this thread has taken, we should move the New Jersey to our cities waterfront in order to eliminate all the Communists? Communism is NOT the problem in Jersey City. Maybe we should find a ship thats better at fighting crime or one that makes people drive their cars rationally in stead? Seriously though, if you are going to frame your argument that we need this ship here to commemorate either the Cold War or Ronald Reagan or some other polarizing right wing revisionist history than you have lost my support. A ship is NOT a trojan horse you can fill with political ideology, you cheapen the legacy of this ship if you try to make it into a springboard for your politics. People making an argument that the ship has a home in Jersey City had better learn not to force a right wing view of things into the argument, it has no place in a decision that concerns our cities waterfront and certainly not a State Park adjacent to the Statue of Liberty.

Posted on: 2012/2/10 14:56
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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I think this would tie in nicely with the future of Jersey city as a cultural and historical destination. Here she is in New York in 1948: Resized Image Here she is killing communists in 1951: Resized Image Resized Image Battleship NJ in Philly
View Larger Map Our empty docks at LSP (same zoom):
View Larger Map how she looks now: Resized Image

Posted on: 2012/2/10 0:32
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Quote:

borisp wrote:
Well, here is a thought:

If someone says "Let's break communism!"
And everyone else responds with "oh, no, it is impossible!"
If that someone says, - "here is HOW we are going to do that"
And everyone else responds with "oh, no it's impossible"

And then it happens exactly like that someone predicted.

And everyone else says "oh, but it didn't happen because of you, it happened on its own, we all knew it was going to happen..."


Well, sorry, but no. If you guys are really that smart - why did not you predict it BEFORE it happened?


How do you fit into your story the various people, like, oh, every single president, who had been working for and predicting the fall of the USSR for the previous 70 years? Just ahead of their time? Reagan's arms race was no different than the "missile gap" arms race of the late 50's or the space race. He won the musical chairs of doing it when the system was tired and had a leader who wasn't committed to keeping it going. I'll bet had Putin been in Gorbachev's seat things would have turned out differently.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 4:45
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Asif wrote:
You may want to read this article which contests that Reagan was the one who broke the Soviets. As you have said, lets stop wasting taxpayer money....if the private sector wishes to save this ship so be it....but no more money from the public till. We could spend this money on education, job training or stop invading countries on false lies or supporting dictators, or overthrowing democratic regimes....yeah...democracy my foot!

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles ... the_soviet_union_is_wrong


Well, here is a thought:

If someone says "Let's break communism!"
And everyone else responds with "oh, no, it is impossible!"
If that someone says, - "here is HOW we are going to do that"
And everyone else responds with "oh, no it's impossible"

And then it happens exactly like that someone predicted.

And everyone else says "oh, but it didn't happen because of you, it happened on its own, we all knew it was going to happen..."


Well, sorry, but no. If you guys are really that smart - why did not you predict it BEFORE it happened?

Posted on: 2012/2/9 3:13
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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You may want to read this article which contests that Reagan was the one who broke the Soviets. As you have said, lets stop wasting taxpayer money....if the private sector wishes to save this ship so be it....but no more money from the public till. We could spend this money on education, job training or stop invading countries on false lies or supporting dictators, or overthrowing democratic regimes....yeah...democracy my foot!

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles ... the_soviet_union_is_wrong

Posted on: 2012/2/8 23:42
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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The numbers take all the emotion out of it. The Battleship only had around 26,000 "paying visitors" last year. What a tragic scene. The state gave the Camden folks $1.74 million last year and all we got was 5 lousy full-time jobs? I just spoke to someone who was at the ship on 4th of July and he said it was a "ghost-ship." If the Ship were up in Liberty State Park, she would see a minimum of 1.2-1.5 million paying visitors. Please don't disrespect our Nation's most famous ship as over $30 million of our hard-earned NJ taxpayer dollars were already flushed down the Delaware River. I was on two navy ships including the USS Saratoga (CV-60) "Super Sara". If the State of New Jersey threw $50 million tomorrow at the Ship it would still fail in Camden. Everyone knows it, just not you. If you look at the following web link, http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/legislat ... _2012/031511/Schuck_J.pdf , you will read and fully understand that even the folks who run the Ship in Camden admit it is a losing situation no matter how the cards are stacked. for a Navy veteran to say the ship should stay in Camden versus be next to Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty, which would make people understand why we are the greatest superpower in the world, defender of liberty and democracy, it ludicrousness. If Ronald Reagan were alive today, he would have it no other way as after building our 600+ ship navy that broke the backs of the Soviets, to only re-commission the New Jersey in 1982, the only ship he ever did, and then launch his re-election campaign from the Liberty State Park, we would not be having this conversation. No real Navy sailor would choose Death (Camden) over Liberty (State Park). It would be the greatest U.S. Navy recruiting tool in history since the Japaneses bombed Pearl Harbor, hands-down. Liberty State Park is the ONLY place for the ship and it will not block any view nor take up a sqaure foot of park space.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 19:03
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Hey JCFrankie my post was NOT meant to be funny. The USS Ling job is goin? down. We just have one big problem. We don?t trust the daily tide charts in the back of the JJ. We want a real time high tide reading. The plan is to have some one with hip boots stationed on Fish House Road under the Witt Penn Bridge. When the Hacky water in the road comes up to the look outs knees he will place a call and the team will start the mission. Thank you HC for not fixing the flooding problem on Fish House Road. It has been flooding for the past 50 years. Just because there are the words ?fish? and ?house? in the name of the road doesn?t mean you can?t fix the flooding. It doesn?t mean the road is a ?fish house? . So don?t worry the tree huggers won?t come after you, besides I don?t think many fish live in the Hacky any more. (PS -genius idea making the ever flooding Fish House Road the detour when you are close down the Witt Penn Bridge on weekends for repair!)

Unfortunately we are having a very difficult time locating a pair of hip boots. We don?t want anyone?s skin dissolving coming in contact with that murky water so the hip boots are a must. We looked on ?the Google? and in surrounding stores with no luck. (you would think the many Dollar Stores in JC would have a cheap pair of freaking hip boots!) It seems there was a run on hip boots this week. Something about them all being sent down to D.C.. Now the only thing I can figure is that everyone in Washington had them on for the State of the Union speech the other night. I must say there sure was a lot of bullshi* piling up in the chamber that night?and every day for a long while come to think of it!

And yes if the USS NJ was to be moved it would be great to somehow get it to another part of JC. Just maybe some of those battleship nerds will spend some of their money in other parts of JC and not just on models. (the plastic kind not the Hedi Klum kind)

Posted on: 2012/1/26 17:18
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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I thought we were talking about a battleship.........

Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Europe isn't bankrupt. Two or three irresponsible countries were issued debt by two or three other countries in an irresponsible way because the banking industry could earn a lot of money selling bonds and other forms of debt without repercussions and knowing that ultimately their industry would lobby the national and unified government to bail them out. But yes, keep telling yourself that its the "free" healthcare.


Not only "free" healthcare, but also generous retirement benefits, government-paid unemployment benefits (like 2 years of almost full pay in France), generous welfare, and other "small" perks.

Even high taxes, 20% VAT and gas prices twice that of the US could not pay for all of that.

That's why every EU country is implementing painful austerity plans right now. Slashing benefits, raising retirement age - because their nanny-state model is unsustainable.

But keep telling yourself that it is "two or three countries" and "big bad bankers" that did Europe in.

To all - sorry for being totally off-topic, but I had to respond.


You and people like you are the great American tragedy, so worried about the government taking money from your wallet you don't bother noticing the fat cats picking your pocket.


The government is the ultimate fat cat.

Posted on: 2012/1/26 17:18
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Europe isn't bankrupt. Two or three irresponsible countries were issued debt by two or three other countries in an irresponsible way because the banking industry could earn a lot of money selling bonds and other forms of debt without repercussions and knowing that ultimately their industry would lobby the national and unified government to bail them out. But yes, keep telling yourself that its the "free" healthcare.


Not only "free" healthcare, but also generous retirement benefits, government-paid unemployment benefits (like 2 years of almost full pay in France), generous welfare, and other "small" perks.

Even high taxes, 20% VAT and gas prices twice that of the US could not pay for all of that.

That's why every EU country is implementing painful austerity plans right now. Slashing benefits, raising retirement age - because their nanny-state model is unsustainable.

But keep telling yourself that it is "two or three countries" and "big bad bankers" that did Europe in.

To all - sorry for being totally off-topic, but I had to respond.


You and people like you are the great American tragedy, so worried about the government taking money from your wallet you don't bother noticing the fat cats picking your pocket.


The government is the ultimate fat cat.

Posted on: 2012/1/26 16:22
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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ianmac47 wrote:
If its expected to be financially independent, it needs to be part of a larger marinetime museum.


Has anyone crunched the numbers to determine how many annual visits it needs? I would think proximity to the enormous stream of domestic and international tourists to the SoL & Ellis would trump being part of a larger maritime museum. There are few of those anywhere, and fewer are successful. Mystic, Fishermans Warf and....? Neither the USS Constitution nor the HMS Victory count, they're both still commissioned.

I wonder what the numbers are like for the North Carolina?

Posted on: 2012/1/26 16:16
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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JerseyCityFrankie wrote:
Neverleft: That was the best post I have ever seen on JC List! Hilarious! To those of you hijacking the discussion to talk about politics? Get out! Surely your discussion would be better off under another heading? Shame on you. Anyway, back to Battleship Talk: I had two more things come to mind- When Jersey City was one of the contenders for gaining the New Jersey ten years ago, what was the proposal the city was floating for its eventual location? A lot has changed on the waterfront in the last ten years but I'm curious as to where the original plan would have had her situated. My other thought was- Why not put the ship up at the North end of town? Sure there would be a little bit of dredging involved, but not as much as there would be at Liberty State Park. the area is largely a wasteland and you wouldn't have to worry too much about people complaining it ruins the feel of the place. It WOULD block views but it wouldn't be altering a State Park. you could put her in stern first on the South side of the pier the ventilator for the Holland Tunnel sits on, She would probably help to prevent shore erosion downsream. I'm not convinced you would get the tourist volume you would really need, but there is a constant stream of foot traffic along the walkway and tourists could access the area via two different ferry lines and the PATH out of Hoboken or Exchange Place, so its not the stuff of science fiction, it could work this way.




The bottom line is no one is coming to a second or third rate city to pay $18.50 to tour a single battleship. If its intended to be a catalyst for redevelopment of some shit stain like Camden, then the state needs to subsidize its operations. If its expected to be financially independent, it needs to be part of a larger marinetime museum.

Posted on: 2012/1/26 14:51
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Europe isn't bankrupt. Two or three irresponsible countries were issued debt by two or three other countries in an irresponsible way because the banking industry could earn a lot of money selling bonds and other forms of debt without repercussions and knowing that ultimately their industry would lobby the national and unified government to bail them out. But yes, keep telling yourself that its the "free" healthcare.


Not only "free" healthcare, but also generous retirement benefits, government-paid unemployment benefits (like 2 years of almost full pay in France), generous welfare, and other "small" perks.

Even high taxes, 20% VAT and gas prices twice that of the US could not pay for all of that.

That's why every EU country is implementing painful austerity plans right now. Slashing benefits, raising retirement age - because their nanny-state model is unsustainable.

But keep telling yourself that it is "two or three countries" and "big bad bankers" that did Europe in.

To all - sorry for being totally off-topic, but I had to respond.


You and people like you are the great American tragedy, so worried about the government taking money from your wallet you don't bother noticing the fat cats picking your pocket.

Posted on: 2012/1/26 14:46
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Neverleft: That was the best post I have ever seen on JC List! Hilarious! To those of you hijacking the discussion to talk about politics? Get out! Surely your discussion would be better off under another heading? Shame on you. Anyway, back to Battleship Talk: I had two more things come to mind- When Jersey City was one of the contenders for gaining the New Jersey ten years ago, what was the proposal the city was floating for its eventual location? A lot has changed on the waterfront in the last ten years but I'm curious as to where the original plan would have had her situated. My other thought was- Why not put the ship up at the North end of town? Sure there would be a little bit of dredging involved, but not as much as there would be at Liberty State Park. the area is largely a wasteland and you wouldn't have to worry too much about people complaining it ruins the feel of the place. It WOULD block views but it wouldn't be altering a State Park. you could put her in stern first on the South side of the pier the ventilator for the Holland Tunnel sits on, She would probably help to prevent shore erosion downsream. I'm not convinced you would get the tourist volume you would really need, but there is a constant stream of foot traffic along the walkway and tourists could access the area via two different ferry lines and the PATH out of Hoboken or Exchange Place, so its not the stuff of science fiction, it could work this way.

Posted on: 2012/1/26 14:25
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Europe isn't bankrupt. Two or three irresponsible countries were issued debt by two or three other countries in an irresponsible way because the banking industry could earn a lot of money selling bonds and other forms of debt without repercussions and knowing that ultimately their industry would lobby the national and unified government to bail them out. But yes, keep telling yourself that its the "free" healthcare.


Not only "free" healthcare, but also generous retirement benefits, government-paid unemployment benefits (like 2 years of almost full pay in France), generous welfare, and other "small" perks.

Even high taxes, 20% VAT and gas prices twice that of the US could not pay for all of that.

That's why every EU country is implementing painful austerity plans right now. Slashing benefits, raising retirement age - because their nanny-state model is unsustainable.

But keep telling yourself that it is "two or three countries" and "big bad bankers" that did Europe in.

To all - sorry for being totally off-topic, but I had to respond.

Posted on: 2012/1/26 0:38
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Bringing the USS NJ to LSP will do nothing for JC. Those tourists who take the ferry from LSP to the SoL and the bus loads of students from all over going to the LSC don?t set foot in any other part of JC. They most likely don?t even realize they are in JC. Yes if it was in LSP some of the SoL tourists would probably spring for a ticket to tour it. And yes that would keep the great USS New Jersey afloat.

If you all really want to help the USS NJ and the USS Ling get off your butt?s and go check them out. When there skip the mocha and throw a little extra in the donation jug. I have been to the USS NJ a few times no problems. After all we live in JC should we be afraid of a place like Camden? Not really. (they probably fear JC more) They were the murder capital of the world a few times, big deal we were the car theft capital of the world a few times.

www.battleshipnewjersey.org

I go to the USS Ling when ever I get a chance. It is an amazing place. They not only have the sub? there are other wartime attractions on the grounds. I really go to hear the stories from the volunteers who give the tours. Some times you will catch someone who actually served on a sub. Or even getting a young volunteer who is just really into subs is great also. I think the story was they were going to move the museum over a few buildings to an old Star Ledger printing factory. Great news. But it was discovered that the factory was contaminated with crap from the printing process. Bummer. It would take millions to clean it up. That museum has a lot of great stuff and needs more room.

www.njnm.com

Hey I have an idea?.lets get the USS Ling to JC!!!

But not in LSP let?s get it over to the other side of JC. Maybe over in the Hacky by the ?we are still waiting for? golf course. Or the new park the county is making out of the old PPJ landfill. Let?s not even ask permission I say we do it the old JC (Marion) way. A bunch of us from JC List go up to the USS Ling and subjack it. There is so much hot air on this site it will float with ease. Someone on here must know how to man a sub. (well maybe a Bimpie sub) We could maneuver it right down the Hackensack River to JC. How cool would that be? Although I heard there are still some pirates living in Bogota and Moonachie. They would have to be pirates to live in places with names like that.

After it is moored we get all of the tourists going to the SoL and LSC by car, bus, or shuttle to come and check it out. Spend some of that tourist money in the area. Hey there?s a Wonder Bagel right across the street.

Another great place for the USS Ling would be the new Bayfront development over on the Westside of JC. It would really be a center piece for the area really help out all of the planned retail. Light rail access and all. Although I don?t know if we would be about to steer it between all of the windmills that are planned for Newark Bay. (windmills in Newark Bay ain?t that something!)


www.bayfrontjerseycity.com



In the immortal words of Bluto?. "Who's with me?"

Posted on: 2012/1/25 21:25
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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creating another Europe by taxing the rich and providing "free" healthcare and "benefits" is not the answer.... These things have bankrupted Europe. It is only a matter of time over there....



We're buying healthcare for ALL Americans right now, but it's in the most inefficient, poorly distributed cost, ass backwards way. 25% of Americans already get their healthcare paid directly by the Govt. The 56% with private pay for a huge insurance system's overhead and profit. The 17% uninsured go to emergency rooms when they get sick at all, which is FAR costlier than a normal primary care doctor, and we still ultimately pay for it with skyrocketing costs. This system of care is why all our local hospitals are in trouble. They don't have enough solvent customers to offset the nonpaying or the low medicaid compensation. Medicaid being run by the states is a joke, it's a race to the bottom.

But the worst part of the system is it's all set up for doctors to either do nothing at all or to "do more so you make more money". No one gets rewarded for actively keeping a patient healthy. I discovered that HMO's were a sham decades ago when my doctor told me, although I worked in a metalshop and cut myself all the time, I'd get charged for a tetanus shot unless I was actually bleeding. Brilliant! Force me to go use an emergency room for hundreds of dollars rather than give me shot that cost a few cents.

Just follow the money. The 2 industries that have grown to gobble 56% of our GDP are the healthcare and finance. Guess who regularly donates the most to politicians for favorable regulation?

Posted on: 2012/1/25 18:22
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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stillinjc wrote:
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jmiz wrote:
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stillinjc wrote:
In order for Big J to get her share of Statue and Ellis Island tourist dollars, she should be berthed here.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t401/stillinjc/Picture2.jpg

Black Tom area is kind of out of the way.


I think you're underestimating the size of a 887 foot long ship. Unless you remove the walkway (Hudson River Walkway -- not likely to happen) and seriously dredge the area that makes up the northern cove, the ship would protrude significantly from the LSP shore in this scenario. It would be ideal if the New Jersey were 2/3rds the size, though.



She IS a huge ship. If the bow protrudes a bit, so what. There are piers there, which can be extended, if needed.

I don't know about dredging, though, it may be prohibitive....



There are so many considerations that go into the placement of museum ships, sight lines and accessibility normally take a back seat to the physical placement and the issues that may arise as a result.

The current askew position of the New Jersey in Camden is in such a way: Google maps of BB62 in Camden

This position was determined to be the best so as to not obscure the natural flow of the river. To exaggerate the effect (and to ignore the bad logic that this imposes) the Battleship would not have been placed from Philadelphia to Camden, tip to tip because it would have acted like an underwater sail or a partial river dam.

Based on this factor in the Delaware, having the Battleship protrude from the shore line of LSP is such a way would case significant problems for the ship in the long-term. Tides in and out of the New York Harbor are extremely strong; winter winds dramatically increase the push and pull. I am in the harbor about a dozen times a week and see first hand the strong tides in and around Liberty & Ellis Island. For example, Liberty Island has two docks, one near the front and one near the back. The one in the front is used as an axillary dock because of the strong tides that influence that area.

TL&DR: In the location you outlined, the ship would bear the brunt of the incoming tide. This would put unneeded stress on the moorings and could potentially cause a buildup of silt under or around the ship. This is all speculation based on the steps taken in the Delaware, though.

Posted on: 2012/1/25 15:41
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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brewster wrote:
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neverleft wrote:
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This is how we get ignoramus leaders like GWB (who started 2 wars) elected by ignoramus populace. You've got to agree that ANYTHING that educates people even a little about our history, our freedoms, and their costs in human life is a good thing.


Speaking of ignoramuses and ignoring history..what about Obama and the Dem media? Isn?t it amazing how they are hushing the deaths of our brave troops in Afghanistan now that it is Obama?s war? I bet you didn?t even know that 1 to 3 brave American?s are dying in Afghanistan almost every day. Funny how we were all reminded of the deaths during the Bush years and the 2008 elections. I recall Keith Oberman and other lib?s signing off every night with a grim death count. Shame, shame.

Check out this DOD web site?sad?.

www.defense.gov/releases



Yes, Obama's War. Like he really had great options with any of the many turds GWB left him. It's like a Bugs Bunny cartoon where as the car speeds towards the cliff Bugs rips the steering wheel off and hands it to Elmer Fudd. I'll bet McCain thanks God every night that he lost.

What I love about the current GOP circus is that GWB in a non-person, he's been airbrushed out of GOP history like a purged and shot Soviet commissar. It's Obama's War, and Obama's Economy and Obama's Debt! And you know what, The Great American Public has such poor f-ing memories (if they were paying attention to begin with) that these talking points actually work! But then we're talking about a population that 55% don't know that the earth revolves around the sun once a year and 40% are creationists.



Good point brewster, but creating another Europe by taxing the rich and providing "free" healthcare and "benefits" is not the answer.... These things have bankrupted Europe. It is only a matter of time over there....

But you are a smart guy, so you probably have already known that...


Europe isn't bankrupt. Two or three irresponsible countries were issued debt by two or three other countries in an irresponsible way because the banking industry could earn a lot of money selling bonds and other forms of debt without repercussions and knowing that ultimately their industry would lobby the national and unified government to bail them out. But yes, keep telling yourself that its the "free" healthcare.

Posted on: 2012/1/25 5:16
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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brewster wrote:
Quote:

neverleft wrote:
Quote:
This is how we get ignoramus leaders like GWB (who started 2 wars) elected by ignoramus populace. You've got to agree that ANYTHING that educates people even a little about our history, our freedoms, and their costs in human life is a good thing.


Speaking of ignoramuses and ignoring history..what about Obama and the Dem media? Isn?t it amazing how they are hushing the deaths of our brave troops in Afghanistan now that it is Obama?s war? I bet you didn?t even know that 1 to 3 brave American?s are dying in Afghanistan almost every day. Funny how we were all reminded of the deaths during the Bush years and the 2008 elections. I recall Keith Oberman and other lib?s signing off every night with a grim death count. Shame, shame.

Check out this DOD web site?sad?.

www.defense.gov/releases



Yes, Obama's War. Like he really had great options with any of the many turds GWB left him. It's like a Bugs Bunny cartoon where as the car speeds towards the cliff Bugs rips the steering wheel off and hands it to Elmer Fudd. I'll bet McCain thanks God every night that he lost.

What I love about the current GOP circus is that GWB in a non-person, he's been airbrushed out of GOP history like a purged and shot Soviet commissar. It's Obama's War, and Obama's Economy and Obama's Debt! And you know what, The Great American Public has such poor f-ing memories (if they were paying attention to begin with) that these talking points actually work! But then we're talking about a population that 55% don't know that the earth revolves around the sun once a year and 40% are creationists.



Good point brewster, but creating another Europe by taxing the rich and providing "free" healthcare and "benefits" is not the answer.... These things have bankrupted Europe. It is only a matter of time over there....

But you are a smart guy, so you probably have already known that...

Posted on: 2012/1/25 4:02
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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neverleft wrote:
Quote:
This is how we get ignoramus leaders like GWB (who started 2 wars) elected by ignoramus populace. You've got to agree that ANYTHING that educates people even a little about our history, our freedoms, and their costs in human life is a good thing.


Speaking of ignoramuses and ignoring history..what about Obama and the Dem media? Isn?t it amazing how they are hushing the deaths of our brave troops in Afghanistan now that it is Obama?s war? I bet you didn?t even know that 1 to 3 brave American?s are dying in Afghanistan almost every day. Funny how we were all reminded of the deaths during the Bush years and the 2008 elections. I recall Keith Oberman and other lib?s signing off every night with a grim death count. Shame, shame.

Check out this DOD web site?sad?.

www.defense.gov/releases



Yes, Obama's War. Like he really had great options with any of the many turds GWB left him. It's like a Bugs Bunny cartoon where as the car speeds towards the cliff Bugs rips the steering wheel off and hands it to Elmer Fudd. I'll bet McCain thanks God every night that he lost.

What I love about the current GOP circus is that GWB in a non-person, he's been airbrushed out of GOP history like a purged and shot Soviet commissar. It's Obama's War, and Obama's Economy and Obama's Debt! And you know what, The Great American Public has such poor f-ing memories (if they were paying attention to begin with) that these talking points actually work! But then we're talking about a population that 55% don't know that the earth revolves around the sun once a year and 40% are creationists.

Posted on: 2012/1/25 3:52
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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We already have the obscene Intrepid in the area, do we really need to continue glorifying war and killing?


I'm torn how to respond. I agree that these WWII ships were engaged in horrific battles and many people died untimely deaths.

I like to think that it's about history. Few young people grasp or understand the lessons of history. Intrepid is about sacrifice. Men didn't fight for God and country, but for their brothers next to them.

Narratives about war, peace, sacrifice, and honor shape the leaders that ascend into positions of power. I think that it is important for young people to see and experience up close these historical relics. One can make a case against many wars that the US has fought, except for WWII.

Posted on: 2012/1/25 3:23
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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[quote]
ianmac47 wrote:
The shipped should have been docked in Philadelphia alongside the existing museum and infrastructure designed to support tourism,


Philadelphia is seemingly more of a death wish than Camden. The "current infrastructure," ie the Independence Seaport Museum, wants to dump the Olympia so bad, suggestions have been made tow the ship to the Atlantic and sink it as an artificial reef. That ship currently survives on what amounts to a continuing resolution to keep the ship in Philly. We're talking about the oldest floating steel warship, by the way. That museum was so wrought with scandals that they're still paying for it; they're in no shape to receive anything that floats.



Sounds like a Battleship is just what that museum needs.

Posted on: 2012/1/25 2:00
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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This is how we get ignoramus leaders like GWB (who started 2 wars) elected by ignoramus populace. You've got to agree that ANYTHING that educates people even a little about our history, our freedoms, and their costs in human life is a good thing.


Speaking of ignoramuses and ignoring history..what about Obama and the Dem media? Isn?t it amazing how they are hushing the deaths of our brave troops in Afghanistan now that it is Obama?s war? I bet you didn?t even know that 1 to 3 brave American?s are dying in Afghanistan almost every day. Funny how we were all reminded of the deaths during the Bush years and the 2008 elections. I recall Keith Oberman and other lib?s signing off every night with a grim death count. Shame, shame.

Check out this DOD web site?sad?.

www.defense.gov/releases


Posted on: 2012/1/25 1:56
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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lefty55 wrote:
We already have the obscene Intrepid in the area, do we really need to continue glorifying war and killing?


Whatcha gonna do, sell it to China for scrap?

Seriously.

I think it is better to keep it as a museum.

"glorifying war and killing" is one of many interpretations of such a museum; one which you apparently choose.

Let others choose for themselves.

Posted on: 2012/1/25 1:34
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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stillinjc wrote:
In order for Big J to get her share of Statue and Ellis Island tourist dollars, she should be berthed here.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t401/stillinjc/Picture2.jpg

Black Tom area is kind of out of the way.


I think you're underestimating the size of a 887 foot long ship. Unless you remove the walkway (Hudson River Walkway -- not likely to happen) and seriously dredge the area that makes up the northern cove, the ship would protrude significantly from the LSP shore in this scenario. It would be ideal if the New Jersey were 2/3rds the size, though.



I tried to draw my crude "depiction" of Big J to scale (there is a scale in the lower right hand corner of the Google map). She measures 270 meters. She IS a huge ship. If the bow protrudes a bit, so what. There are piers there, which can be extended, if needed. In this era of instant gratification, you want Statue and Ellis Island tourists right there. That's how they do it with Midway in SD.

I don't know about dredging, though, it may be prohibitive....

Posted on: 2012/1/25 1:17
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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We already have the obscene Intrepid in the area, do we really need to continue glorifying war and killing?


Sorry, but what's obscene is how ignorant Americans are of our history. I had a Pratt grad working for me in the early 90's who couldn't tell me when the Vietnam war was. When I commented to checkout girl at Lowe's about the total of 17.76 being a "good year", she asked if that was my birthday! I said "4th of July? declaration of independence?" and she said "Oh, I don't pay attention to any of that stuff".

This is how we get ignoramus leaders like GWB (who started 2 wars) elected by ignoramus populace. You've got to agree that ANYTHING that educates people even a little about our history, our freedoms, and their costs in human life is a good thing.

Posted on: 2012/1/25 1:08
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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If I remember correctly the Iowa class battleships and a McDonalds on board (or was it the carriers?). With the removal of loads of 20 and 40 mm anti-air cannon (replaced by the Phalanx Cannon) the Iowa class carried far fewer personnel than during WWII. So you had some extra space on board. The marines were not happy the BB's were taken out of service as they could really deliver a punch via shore bombardment (something the Brits wish they had during the Falkland Island Campaign). I remember listening to an interview of one of the Americans who were taken hostage in Lebanon during the early 80's (forgot his name). He talked about how his captors and Syrian minders kept bitching about 'New Jersey'. It was only later that he realized they were talking about the battleship shelling his captors with 5 inch and 16 inch ordinance and not the state (everyone hates NJ.. even people in Lebanon).

Posted on: 2012/1/25 0:14
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