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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
In order for Big J to get her share of Statue and Ellis Island tourist dollars, she should be berthed here.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t401/stillinjc/Picture2.jpg

Black Tom area is kind of out of the way.


I think you're underestimating the size of a 887 foot long ship. Unless you remove the walkway (Hudson River Walkway -- not likely to happen) and seriously dredge the area that makes up the northern cove, the ship would protrude significantly from the LSP shore in this scenario. It would be ideal if the New Jersey were 2/3rds the size, though.

Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
The shipped should have been docked in Philadelphia alongside the existing museum and infrastructure designed to support tourism,


Philadelphia is seemingly more of a death wish than Camden. The "current infrastructure," ie the Independence Seaport Museum, wants to dump the Olympia so bad, suggestions have been made tow the ship to the Atlantic and sink it as an artificial reef. That ship currently survives on what amounts to a continuing resolution to keep the ship in Philly. We're talking about the oldest floating steel warship, by the way. That museum was so wrought with scandals that they're still paying for it; they're in no shape to receive anything that floats.

Quote:

Vigilante wrote:
Would it be at all possible to put a Whole Foods inside the battleship?


So long as you strip it down to just the supermarket. Navy ships as museums prohibit the active use of the galley.

Posted on: 2012/1/24 23:50
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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We already have the obscene Intrepid in the area, do we really need to continue glorifying war and killing?

Posted on: 2012/1/24 23:40
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Here?s the Southern side of the story?.from courierpostonline?

Full steam ahead for battleship

Jan23, 2012

CAMDEN ? The Battleship New Jersey museum is still coping with a whopping reduction in state aid that is causing problems with a loan and is fending off old foes who want to take the ship upstate.

Despite all this, the museum leadership has a positive message for the public.

If piped over the once-active and historic ship?s intercom system, that announcement would say: ?Now hear this. Now hear this. The ship is not closing up shop and is not moving elsewhere.?

The Battleship New Jersey Museum and Memorial on the Camden waterfront has trimmed employees, curtailed winter hours and reduced other operating costs as its state aid ? once $3.4 million ? has steadily fallen to near zero.

State aid for utilities and operating expenses dwindled to nothing in the current fiscal year under the Christie administration except for a $32,500 grant from the New Jersey Historic Commission. Now the $3.2 million ship museum budget is less than half of what it once was and less than the state aid amount it received in 2004.

This week it was disclosed the ship did not have the money to pay another principal payment on $900,000 of a $1 million loan dating to 2003 ? the year before the ship received any state aid. That loan was guaranteed by the Delaware River Port Authority.

On Wednesday the port authority agreed to a 90-day extension of the remaining loan amount with the lender, TD Bank, pending further consideration by the DRPA. If the loan is called, authority members were told by their staff this week that the DRPA would have to repay it for the museum.

The ship is owned by the Navy and is not collateral for the loan.

Jim Schuck, president and chief executive officer of the museum, said the battleship will be making another $50,000 principal payment on the loan but could not say how soon.

?We have paid the interest on the loan every year and have made two $50,000 payments toward the principal, and the bank has regularly extended the loan,? he said.


Full two page piece?.

http://www.courierpostonline.com/arti ... Jersey?odyssey=nav%7Chead

*****

lol vigilante?.

Did you know that the Intrepid used to have a McDonalds in the belly of the ship? But after the big refurbishment it now has a fancy crap health food deli /cafe.

Posted on: 2012/1/24 23:31
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Would it be at all possible to put a Whole Foods inside the battleship?

Posted on: 2012/1/24 19:45
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Let's not forget about the other naval museum in NJ, the Ling berthed in Hackensack. Let me guess, you forgot about that.

http://www.njnm.com/

Posted on: 2012/1/24 19:40
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Even though, as I said, it would be totally incongruous with Ellis Island, that might actually make a great place to tie up the ship. To me Ellis Island was always sort of the boring stop on the way to the Statue of Liberty.

Posted on: 2012/1/24 19:37
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
In order for Big J to get her share of Statue and Ellis Island tourist dollars, she should be berthed here.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t401/stillinjc/Picture2.jpg

Black Tom area is kind of out of the way.


Not as out of the way as Camden or Bayonne! Seriously, of course you're right from a business perspective, but from the POV of blocked sightlines to the 2 islands from that area and the mentioned incongruity of the warship to the other monuments, a little out of the way isn't that bad. It's a short scenic walk, and perhaps tickets could be sold there that include a shuttle bus for those not inclined or able to walk.

Personally I would still favor a mooring and ferries to it.

Posted on: 2012/1/24 19:10
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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In order for Big J to get her share of Statue and Ellis Island tourist dollars, she should be berthed here.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t401/stillinjc/Picture2.jpg

Black Tom area is kind of out of the way.

Posted on: 2012/1/24 18:45
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Re: Battleship New Jersey
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The shipped should have been docked in Philadelphia alongside the existing museum and infrastructure designed to support tourism, or in New York alongside the Intrepid, where again, there already is infrastructure to support the tourism. Of course no one is traveling to Camden, a city abandoned by the state for the last three decades.

The only way the Battleship works in Jersey City is if it is somehow tied in with the existing tourism of the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island. This arrangement seems a bit incongruous given the ship is a symbol of war and the others symbols of peace. But at least then there would be some actual paying visitors.

But I'm sure sticking it in Bayonne will ensure the trickle of tourists necessary for the ship to slowly sink into the harbor with all the great transportation options, flocks of tourists already headed there and other great things to see in Bayonne. In France and Italy and Germany, the tourists will say things like "Mamma, can't we go to Bayonne to see the big, bad battleship?"

Posted on: 2012/1/24 6:15
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Battleship New Jersey
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This morning I read about the renewed movement to bring the Battleship New Jersey back to Jersey City. Afterward, I went and pulled out an old article that I saved from the Jersey Journal on February 3, 1999 with the title "Schundler Gives up the Ship." At the time of that article, I had contacted our senators and congressmen and tried to convince them and Mayor Schundler of the value of bringing this important piece of history to Jersey City. The response I got at the time was that the NYC mayor and congressional delegation did not want the battleship in Jersey City or Bayonne because of their fear that it would compete with the aircraft carrier Intrepid in Manhattan.

A lot has changed in the past 13 years. Has Jersey City grown up enough that our leaders no longer feel the need to bow down to the will of politicians on the other side of the Hudson River?

Jersey City has 1200 acres of precious land set aside as Liberty State Park. I've said for years that one of the best ways to help the Jersey City economy is to take advantage of the billions of dollars that over 50 million tourists spend each year in the New York metropolitan area. The park has become a tourism hub for Jersey City. We already have millions of people who visit each year en route to Ellis Island, the Statue of Liberty, festivals, concerts, Liberty National Golf Course, and the Liberty Science Center. Adding a national treasure like the USS New Jersey will only add to the existing tourist draw in a way that one-dimensional cities like Camden (and Bayonne) could never realistically hope to achieve.

In my opinion, the NJ congressional delegation still has little regard for Jersey City ? one of the most historic cities in the country. In 1999 I wrote in a letter to the editor, "If the battleship goes to Bayonne, it will eventually end up a rusty hulk and disgrace to everyone who has pride in the greatness of the ship." It turns out that I was correct ? except she is rusting in Camden instead. Without a reinforcing ecosystem of tourist attractions, Camden has failed to attract tourists from the smaller Philadelphia market in the decade since the ship was relocated there. Now is the time to finally give her a home that she deserves ? in Jersey City.

Posted on: 2012/1/24 3:48
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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I say let Hoboken have it. They are going to need a giant lifeboat...because that place is sinking fast. :(

Posted on: 2012/1/24 2:51
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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After the ship was awarded to Camden, you can conclude that "anything goes" so having her next to the Intrepid is not too far out of the equation. Except, the Intrepid AS&S Museum is the only non-profit to ever return a ship to the Navy; the Edson was one moored where the Concord now sits but is instead back in a Navy yard rotting away. I doubt another ship is in their plans. But again, anything could happen.

However, the New Jersey as it currently exists does not fit into the Intrepid's current interpretation. The Intrepid is a air, sea and space museum that just happens to exist on an aircraft carrier. The New Jersey is interpreted strictly as a battleship from the 1980s. You won't see a Japanese airplane or an Army helicopter on the fantail of the New Jersey, but you do see things like that on the Intrepid.

Posted on: 2012/1/24 1:45
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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Jmis, how high do you suppose she could float if they removed the ballast? That would certainly make it easier to dredge a channel, my chart shows the channel along Black Tom is only 12-15 ft at low. Catch a spring tide and you've got another 6 ft. That same chart shows plenty of depth to moor her south of Liberty on the edge of the Anchorage Channel.

Frankie's political concern isn't without merit, but I'll bet being tucked away along Black Tom wouldn't be visible enough for many of the promoters of this plan. You'd likely only see the superstructure from Battery Park. Personally I'd love to see it at moorings all alone in it's glory, otherwise there'd be no money shot like the view of the Intrepid when you're going north on the WSH. The benefit of a harbor mooring is it would fit right in with ferry terminal infrastructure of the other 2 destinations. It might even be sensible to allow visitors directly from Battery Park.

And Frankie, Jersey would scuttle the damn thing before seeing it go across the river to the Intrepid.

Posted on: 2012/1/23 23:21
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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Forget the fact that the cruise industry would never give up a spot, but if you think people in southern Jersey would be pissed about losing it to JC, imagine how all of Jersey would react about losing our own battleship to New York City.

Posted on: 2012/1/23 22:26
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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Upon reflection I?m thinking: The Intrepid Sea Air Space Museum is the only entity in these waters that can boast of successful management of a maritime museum. The South Street Seaport Museum is going to re-emerge from near death with new management this month and I urge everyone to attend their new exhibit when it opens this month but that museum is already looking for ways to reduce the size of its fleet, and besides would be a poor fit for a warship of any size. No, The Intrepid Museum is the way to go and the most logical place for the U.S.S. New Jersey. The chief obstacle would be wresting a new birth along the North side of the Intrepid from the cruise ship industry- the piers to the North of Intrepid are very busy with cruise ships and it would be a major fight to get them to let the New Jersey take up permanent or even temporary residence. The park on the pier immediately South of Intrepid recently underwent a multi million dollar face lift and the city would never turn around and scrap this new jewel in its Greenway crown, not for the next fifty years at least. The Intrepid Sea Air Space Museum is about to acquire the Space Shuttle Enterprise full size mock up, after a national competition in which they beat out many other established museums, and they are actively planning for its integration and display in their empire. Adding the New Jersey to the mix would be costly and difficult but the throngs of tourists would respond enthusiastically and make the museum an even more popular destination than the addition of the Space Shuttle will.

Posted on: 2012/1/23 21:31
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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Quote:

JerseyCityFrankie wrote:
stuff



You're referencing the length below the waterline, she's just a few inches over 887ft. Her silhouette is the concern. Also, the ship as a museum is drafting 27-28ft; 35ft is at full displacement. Regardless, 27 or 35, there would be dredging to be done. The ship's currently location in the Delaware required the same. In addition to the dredge to the location, a "trench" had to be dug for her actual placement.

The dredge would seemingly be the least of the ship's relocation concerns. The ship would have to be tugged over 150 miles; the ship as a museum is prohibited by the Navy from activating any equipment that would allow for self-propulsion. That, and a significant section of the top masting would need to be temporarily removed to get the ship back out under the Walt Whitman.

Posted on: 2012/1/23 20:00
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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(and here?s the link for those of you not in the know..check this beauty out!)

www.battleshipnewjersey.org


(another cool destination in a very strange out of the way location?. is the USS Ling. Real interesting place..go there and take the tour ..fascinating!)


www.njnm.com

Posted on: 2012/1/23 17:53
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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I wouldn?t oppose moving the Battleship New Jersey to the waters of the Upper New York Harbor. I was one of those people slapping my forehead in amazement when they put it where they did last time. I guess the lesson is to worry less about politics and more about reality when you make decisions like this. In that light here are some factors people may not be aware of that make it a difficult proposition to put the New Jersey on the West side of the harbor. Iowa class battleships have a draft of 35 feet. That means the bottom of the ship is 35? under the surface of the water. The ships are 861 feet long! In contrast the newest Staten Island ferries draw 13 feet 6 inches and are 310 feet long. New Yorks safe navigation channel is narrow and runs only along the center of the harbor, large ships like a battleship can not stray at all from the channel. The deepest navigable water directly off the shore of Liberty State Park is only 27 feet deep. Between the Statue of Liberty and the shore it averages only 6 feet. There is a navigable channel reaching inland along the South of Liberty State park but it is amazingly narrow and south of this, for miles, is what is known as The Jersey Flats, water so shallow you cant even sail a 32 foot sailboat into it.
If you want to put a battleship anywhere around here you would have to dredge a channel just for moving the ship close to the shore and this would certainly cost millions. Speaking of financing, you need to put the ship in a place where tourists will be willing to go. It makes no sense to put her into a location with no tourist infrastructure. Ship nerds would be willing to make a trek to some barren part of the harbor but the bulk of the tourists you would need to support the cost of maintaining the ship would not be willing to go.
The guy who said: ?The same people opposed to the 9/11 memorial will be opposed to this if it blocks the view of NYC.? Is talking out his butt. I oppose the 9-11 Memorial for three reasons and I will list them in descending order: Location, cost, aesthetics. Everyone in the Free World would oppose putting an enormous militaristic symbol anywhere near the Statue of Liberty where it would appear in the background of every subsequent photo of Lady Liberty. Conceivably you could tuck the ship in way down at the South end of the park but like I said you would have to spend millions just to move the ship the last quarter mile to a spot close enough to the land to allow tourists to get aboard.

Posted on: 2012/1/23 17:39
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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Quote:

jmiz wrote:
The suggestion for placement in LSP was at the South end, running parallel to Black Tom's Wharf


Do you mean the stretch of road just east of the boat ramp? That would be pretty good, as there's very little pedestrian traffic there to interfere with their views, and the view is of Liberty National.

Wouldn't another possibility be mooring it far enough out south of Liberty Island that it becomes part of the harbor scene? The fact that there's already a tourist ferry facility operating makes this easier to implement, but perhaps utilities and such make it harder.

I'm saddened to hear of the ship's current troubles, we're planning to make a visit to it sometime this year. There's nothing like standing in history to make an impression on the kids. Whether it's walking among the gun emplacements at the Yorktown battlefield, or standing on the hangar deck of the Intrepid looking up at where a Kamikaze pierced the flight deck, it helps the kids (and adults) know that what we have didn't' come for free.

Posted on: 2012/1/23 16:46
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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There was a lot of support for the ship at the Military Ocean Terminal in Bayonne, which would have placed it in somewhat of a proper context and wouldn't have ruined any major sight lines for residents or park-goers. When that plan fell through, I believe the terminal was handed to the Port Authority and is now in a stage of redevelopment. The Bayonne option seems the most far fetched right now as a result.

Bayonne was #1. Jersey City was #2. Camden was #3.

The suggestion for placement in LSP was at the South end, running parallel to Black Tom's Wharf or the North end near the Train Terminal. This was all in the mid-1990s, though. There is now (and was in the 1990s, too) very valuable marine real estate in the North so that option seems the least likely based on the little I know about the present-day push to get the ship to LSP. Also the addition of the 9/11 memorial would make that end very crowded..

Any other location in between would drastically interfere with the aesthetic backdrop for the Statue of Liberty.

Posted on: 2012/1/23 4:33
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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jmiz -- Do you know where they want to put it, if it does come to Liberty State Park? It's so big. The same people opposed to the 9/11 memorial will be opposed to this if it blocks the view of NYC.

Posted on: 2012/1/23 3:30
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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My thesis was on museum ship sustainability; I am also a BB62 volunteer. This topic is near and dear to my heart.

Quote:

MDM wrote:
Who will pay for the upkeep? I think back to the battleship Texas which was never maintained properly. It basically sunk in port.


Its upkeep would continue as it is now. The Home Port Alliance is the non-profit that oversees the ship. A move may result in a new non-profit or the HPA would move with the ship. Upon arrival 10 years ago, the New Jersey received state funds but those have dwindled and (recently) ceased all together. The ship has since laid off a good portion of its staff. Other talent has ... literally ... jumped ship to other institutions in Philadelphia and you've got one person wearing waaay too many hats.

The Battleship has resorted to many fundraising campaigns (customize a brick, Battleship wine) that are all directly related to its current dire situation along the lonely Camden waterfront.

If you revisit the old push from mid to late 1990s, you'll see how much pressure was on placing the ship in North Jersey. BUT, North Jersey "gets everything" and the Battleship is believed to be the concession awarded to South Jersey. Ten years later, we are seeing the result of that concession. That, and it is likely the Intrepid put up a quiet opposition, as a nearby Navy ship would undoubtedly remove their luster.


Ships in trouble is nothing new. The aforementioned Texas was the first ship to become a museum and it has since changed hands and is now apart of the Texas State Park system. An effort is currently being made to permanently drydock the ship (sail it in to a dock and fill in the dock with fill, essentially). This is an option only for those next to a park or near open space, unlikely for the New Jersey in Camden. More likely--or a future possibility--for the New Jersey in Liberty State Park.


Ripping the New Jersey away from South Jersey would absolutely decimate its dedicated volunteer crew. That would be the saddest aspect of the move. Some guys served on that ship in WWII and continue to volunteer and are often the only remaining knowledge bases on certain aspects of the ship.

Good read, nonetheless.

Posted on: 2012/1/23 2:23
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Re: 'Big J' coming to Jersey City?
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Who will pay for the upkeep? I think back to the battleship Texas which was never maintained properly. It basically sunk in port.

Posted on: 2012/1/22 19:16
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Battleship New Jersey
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A behind-the-scenes campaign to relocate the U.S. Navy?s most decorated war ship from Camden to Jersey City is now underway, a campaign that threatens to revive an old tug of war between north and south Jersey.

Read more: Hudson Reporter - ?Big J? coming to JC Campaign building to bring famed Battleship New Jersey to Liberty State Park

USS New Jersey coming to JC

Posted on: 2012/1/22 18:57

Edited by Webmaster on 2012/1/24 3:57:40
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