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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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yeah that's the problem here. The top donor states are all "blue" states that don't complain about federal taxes. The top welfare states are all "red" states that constantly complain about being overtaxed.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8229012/Tax ... ntrib-States?autodown=txt

Here it is in spreadsheet form, though messageboard formatting doesn't really do it justice. The names at the top are the top donor states, the names at the bottom are the top welfare states. Ranked by absolute value, but the % is on the right. NJ has the worst return.

State Fed Tax Paid Fed $ Received Benificary/(Donor) Donor Rank Recipient Rank (i.e. welfare states) Ratio 1981-2005
------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------
CA $4,083,182 $3,594,068 ($489,114) 1 51 88.021%
NJ $1,302,539 $863,387 ($439,152) 2 50 66.285%
NY $2,587,645 $2,181,805 ($405,840) 3 49 84.316%
IL $1,571,363 $1,166,023 ($405,340) 4 48 74.205%
MI $1,110,303 $913,688 ($196,615) 5 47 82.292%
CT $604,021 $448,264 ($155,757) 6 46 74.213%
TX $2,093,259 $1,959,949 ($133,310) 7 45 93.631%
MN $576,062 $451,999 ($124,063) 8 44 78.464%
WI $567,955 $472,646 ($95,309) 9 43 83.219%
MA $923,986 $847,872 ($76,114) 10 42 91.762%
NV $218,973 $158,351 ($60,622) 11 41 72.315%
CO $485,829 $432,643 ($53,186) 12 40 89.053%
IN $607,521 $558,161 ($49,360) 13 39 91.875%
WA $707,321 $660,908 ($46,413) 14 38 93.438%
OH $1,183,761 $1,141,579 ($42,182) 15 37 96.437%
NH $155,794 $115,051 ($40,743) 16 36 73.848%
FL $1,752,873 $1,717,554 ($35,319) 17 35 97.985%
OR $342,603 $314,757 ($27,846) 18 34 91.872%
DE $93,827 $75,409 ($18,418) 19 33 80.370%
NC $741,736 $732,481 ($9,255) 20 32 98.752%
GA $780,038 $775,243 ($4,795) 21 31 99.385%
VT $62,093 $62,682 $589 22 30 100.949%
WY $60,170 $60,948 $778 23 29 101.293%
RI $121,040 $128,863 $7,823 24 28 106.463%
NE $173,359 $184,037 $10,678 25 27 106.159%
IA $288,691 $303,706 $15,015 26 26 105.201%
KS $280,402 $299,592 $19,190 27 25 106.844%
ID $105,170 $126,698 $21,528 28 24 120.470%
UT $176,582 $198,976 $22,394 29 23 112.682%
SD $69,626 $95,931 $26,305 30 22 137.780%
PA $1,409,864 $1,440,085 $30,221 31 21 102.144%
AK $79,496 $111,469 $31,973 32 20 140.220%
MT $77,979 $111,956 $33,977 33 19 143.572%
ND $61,432 $95,640 $34,208 34 18 155.684%
ME $120,418 $156,023 $35,605 35 17 129.568%
HI $131,728 $179,598 $47,870 36 16 136.340%
AZ $447,356 $512,027 $64,671 37 15 114.456%
AR $209,829 $280,428 $70,599 38 14 133.646%
WV $147,869 $222,330 $74,461 39 13 150.356%
OK $302,865 $386,762 $83,897 40 12 127.701%
SC $335,104 $423,210 $88,106 41 11 126.292%
TN $532,048 $628,327 $96,279 42 10 118.096%
KY $344,170 $450,619 $106,449 43 9 130.929%
LA $378,408 $500,918 $122,510 44 8 132.375%
NM $143,188 $281,634 $138,446 45 7 196.688%
MS $200,910 $342,333 $141,423 46 6 170.391%
AL $381,022 $546,995 $165,973 47 5 143.560%
MO $562,878 $738,514 $175,636 48 4 131.203%
MD $690,863 $874,040 $183,177 49 3 126.514%
VA $823,639 $1,199,266 $375,627 50 2 145.606%
DC $99,189 $543,024 $443,835 51 1 547.464%

Posted on: 2011/3/7 16:45
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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ianmac47 wrote:
New Jersey has one of the worst returns of federal tax dollars. For every dollar we pay towards the federal government, we get back something like $0.72. That's not a very good rate of return.


I never understood that argument. Politicians from rich states make that argument all the time; that they don't receive enough in proportion to the taxes their locality pays up. Well, hello, that's the exact argument every wealthy PERSON makes when they complain about paying to much in taxes. And I don't see these politicians agreeing that individuals that pay the most taxes should be receiving the most governmental benefits.

New Jersey is a relatively wealthy state. I think for NJ to be receiving from the federal government 72% of what it contributes is a damn good rate of return. Actually it's quite obscene. This state should be much more self reliant on its own funding given the taxes it already collects for its own spending needs.


It wouldn't annoy so much if the red states that receive our largess were even the slightest bit humble about it, instead they ramble on about their "rugged individualism" and "self reliance rather socialist big government". A panhandler that flips you the bird should find his cup empty.

As for our local tax rate, while we do have the honor of being number 1, it's not as drastic a lead as some make out. When you except the ridiculous outliers like NH & AK, we're only 28% higher than the national median state of Indiana. I'd rather live here and pay, thank you.

http://taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/336.html

Posted on: 2011/3/7 16:29
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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ianmac47 wrote:
New Jersey has one of the worst returns of federal tax dollars. For every dollar we pay towards the federal government, we get back something like $0.72. That's not a very good rate of return.


I never understood that argument. Politicians from rich states make that argument all the time; that they don't receive enough in proportion to the taxes their locality pays up. Well, hello, that's the exact argument every wealthy PERSON makes when they complain about paying to much in taxes. And I don't see these politicians agreeing that individuals that pay the most taxes should be receiving the most governmental benefits.

New Jersey is a relatively wealthy state. I think for NJ to be receiving from the federal government 72% of what it contributes is a damn good rate of return. Actually it's quite obscene. This state should be much more self reliant on its own funding given the taxes it already collects for its own spending needs.


New York and New Jersey shouldn't be worrying about how to pay for a rail tunnel connecting the two states while both states contribute more federal dollars than they receive back. If ARC had been a federal interstate highway for instance, the federal government would have apportioned $8 billion of the $8.7 billion cost leaving the states responsible for the other $700 million. But instead, another freeway in West Virginia is getting repaved and we're left wondering how to pay for the tunnel.

Posted on: 2011/3/6 22:16
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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ianmac47 wrote:
New Jersey has one of the worst returns of federal tax dollars. For every dollar we pay towards the federal government, we get back something like $0.72. That's not a very good rate of return.


I never understood that argument. Politicians from rich states make that argument all the time; that they don't receive enough in proportion to the taxes their locality pays up. Well, hello, that's the exact argument every wealthy PERSON makes when they complain about paying to much in taxes. And I don't see these politicians agreeing that individuals that pay the most taxes should be receiving the most governmental benefits.

New Jersey is a relatively wealthy state. I think for NJ to be receiving from the federal government 72% of what it contributes is a damn good rate of return. Actually it's quite obscene. This state should be much more self reliant on its own funding given the taxes it already collects for its own spending needs.

Posted on: 2011/3/6 20:47
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New Jersey has one of the worst returns of federal tax dollars. For every dollar we pay towards the federal government, we get back something like $0.72. That's not a very good rate of return.

New Jersey also has too many municipalities and too many school districts. But no one is willing to combine districts and municipalities; not the elected officials suckling from the government teat and not the residents complaining about higher property taxes. Until people are willing to address these issues, they really need to STFU about paying too much in taxation.

Posted on: 2011/3/6 19:44
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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JPhurst wrote:
I would ask anyone to name me a single country that provides as extensive government services and support for the amount that we do.


I wouldn't call what JC provides for government services and support as extensive.

Posted on: 2011/3/6 16:27
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New Jersey is a relatively high tax state, though not the highest.

New Jersey is also one of the wealthiest states in the country. We also do well by just about every social indicator in education, infrastructure, etc. We definitely can do better at the municipal level but let us please dispense with the idea that Jersey City is some dystopia where nothing works.

Overall, Americans pay 20 cents on the dollar for federal government, and 28 cents on the dollar when state and local taxes are factored into play. New Jersey is probably higher but not much so.

I would ask anyone to name me a single country that provides as extensive government services and support for the amount that we do.

On top of that, our tax system is one of the least redistributive in the western world. In terms of a country's GINI coefficient, which measures distribution of wealth (1 being that 1 person has all the money, 0 meaning wealth is distributed exactly equally), the U.S., before taxes, has a GINI coefficient of 0.46, just above the OECD average of 0.45. After taxes, it is 0.38, the highest GINI coefficient of any OECD state (OECD average is 0.31). This measure is not the most perfect but it serves the point here.

Which is the following: We pay less for our country's comprehensive government services than any other civilized country, and we do it with a relatively low tax burden, and that tax burden largely lets the wealthiest keep what they already have.

Sure, we can eliminate wasteful spending, but fiscal responsibility requires that we raise money on the tax side as well, and we have not come close to a saturation point where raising taxes would cripple our economy, even in these times.

Raising the tax on the wealthiest for a couple of pennies on the dollar, plus raising the gas tax a few cents, would go a long way in addressing our fiscal concerns, and allow us to make crucial infrastructure investments such as the ARC tunnel.

Posted on: 2011/3/6 15:40
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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I would like to see something that shows the delta between what I pay in real estate taxes versus what I would be paying in sales and income tax should another state's or a few other states' tax policies by adopted here in NJ. I along with many people believe if we taxed income and the sales of goods more the average home owner may be saving money, assuming an appropriate reduction of real estate taxes. But of course I have no authority to cite to to support that. Of course there is some risk that once we agree to an increase in sales and income taxes, government leaders won't reduce real estate taxes in proportion.

Posted on: 2011/3/6 13:27
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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But his being beholden to GOP dogma about "no new taxes" will continue to be a problem. A couple of cents on gas would go a long way to solving the financial crisis and still leave us with some of the cheapest gas around.


The dogma that we keep raising taxes doesn't work either brewster. In Illinois they raised state income taxes and that was probably OK, because the tax rate there was relatively low to begin with. Your point is taken that since we have one of the lowest gasoline tax rates, it would make sense to raise it.

But we live in a state where the property taxes are THE highest in the nation and yet municipal gov'ts (such as Jersey City's) still don't have enough money to balance budgets.

So, if we just raise gas taxes, will the gov't magically show fiscal responsibility?

Put it this way: If municipal spending hadn't increased 70% in the past decade, I'd be more apt to support increased taxation in these troubled times to cover expenses. But empirically, we have seen that increased tax revenues don't decrease budget deficits. The money just gets spent and (because governments generally allocate capital less efficiently than the private sector), we the people don't even see any results from it. High taxes in JC yields broken sidewalks, pot-holed streets, and failing schools. Can you really, honestly, believe that raising taxes -gas taxes or otherwise - really will yield good results? It hasn't so far. Maybe we just need to tax more and we'll hit some sort of threshold that makes everything better and gives the gov'ts enough to make things better? I'm not convinced.

Posted on: 2011/3/6 2:57
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Unfortunately the ARC tunnel will not be built. New York will not contribute to it, and the billions in federal funding will not be restored.

The proposed Amtrak high speed rail tunnel is an inadequate substitute providing room for half as many NJ Transit trains and the suggestion of extending the 7 train from Manhattan, while a noble effort, falls short of addressing many of the goals ARC originally intended to achieve.

The best hope for Jersey City now is that the Port Authority accelerates plans to lengthen PATH platforms to allow longer trains and upgrade the signal system to allow for more trains to move on the tracks. As for suburban New Jersey -- well most of those communities are screwed.

Posted on: 2011/3/4 18:34
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ITA. I've always thought that was his endgame, to have NY shoulder some of the cost of the tunnel. Meanwhile, all of the dems were freaking out and screaming....I guess they have no idea how to negotiate.


Lord know how many sweetheart contracts the Dems had in place on this one. This was the only reason to vote for CC, he wasn't beholden to the entrenched deals that have picked our pockets for years. But his being beholden to GOP dogma about "no new taxes" will continue to be a problem. A couple of cents on gas would go a long way to solving the financial crisis and still leave us with some of the cheapest gas around.

Posted on: 2011/3/4 18:34
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shuklad wrote:
Agree completely. If anything, Christie has played this perfectly. The tunnel will still get done because its a necessity, but NJ taxpayers wont shoulder the entire cost of it


ITA. I've always thought that was his endgame, to have NY shoulder some of the cost of the tunnel. Meanwhile, all of the dems were freaking out and screaming....I guess they have no idea how to negotiate.

Posted on: 2011/3/4 18:26
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Agree completely. If anything, Christie has played this perfectly. The tunnel will still get done because its a necessity, but NJ taxpayers wont shoulder the entire cost of it

Posted on: 2011/3/4 16:52
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well of course, NYC is going to benefit the most from anything NJ does -it's the region's core. If Christie feels this way, then why not just the MTA take over the project and cut out NJ transit and their bullsh_t fares!

Posted on: 2011/3/3 21:36
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A highlight from the link,

After the demise of the tunnel project, known as Access to the Region?s Core, Christie also received calls from New York?s then-Governor David Paterson, Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Manhattan real-estate developers, the governor said. ?That shows you who stood to benefit the most from that project,? he said.

Posted on: 2011/3/3 21:17
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LOL. Now Christie is trying to resurrect the rail tunnel. Someone should tell that simpleton that even if the tunnel is expensive it will help NJ's growth, not building it will constrain that growth.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03 ... if-new-york-chips-in.html


You are exhibiting a real misunderstanding of the story.

Posted on: 2011/3/3 20:49
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He kiboshed the tunnel because he wanted NY to chip in as well.

Posted on: 2011/3/3 20:28
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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LOL. Now Christie is trying to resurrect the rail tunnel. Someone should tell that simpleton that even if the tunnel is expensive it will help NJ's growth, not building it will constrain that growth.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03 ... if-new-york-chips-in.html

Posted on: 2011/3/3 18:37
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Just goes to show how short-sighted Gov. Christie is.


Short-sighted?? Short-sighted like a fox. Funny how all of a sudden options have been created that are less costly to NJ taxpayers. And there are likely other options that haven't been presented yet. Thank you Christie for making your colleagues go back to their drawing boards to come up with creative, cheaper solutions instead of simply treating the State of NJ as a bottomless wallet.

Posted on: 2011/2/8 18:21
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Both Amtrak and NYC want to move ahead with a tunnel. Just goes to show how short-sighted Gov. Christie is.

I personally favor the subway as this option would create another cross Hudson option and save commuters who take NYC subway money (I hope). Amazing how expensive NJ transit is compared to LIRR.

Posted on: 2011/2/8 17:42
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+1 chief

Posted on: 2011/1/12 22:55
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And for the record I drive a car and put 93 in it so don't blast me for being a liberal mass transit snob. I just think it makes sense to take mass transit whenever possible.

Posted on: 2011/1/12 22:55
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I know it's sacrilegious to talk of raising the gas tax but honestly our gas is so damn cheap compared to the rest of the country. I'd be willing to pay another 25cents per gallon if it fixes the budget and gets the tunnel built. Jesus, we don't even pump our own gas. NJ caters the car driver more than any other state in the union.

Posted on: 2011/1/12 22:52
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Governor Christie must be the poster child for the motoring and oil industries


No, their post child is Jeff Tittel.

Posted on: 2011/1/12 21:11
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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Christie is doing a " heckuva job ".

Posted on: 2011/1/12 21:10
>>> IT'S TOO LATE.....<<<
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Governor Christie must be the poster child for the motoring and oil industries

Posted on: 2011/1/12 20:44
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what's the latest on expanding the subway into Jersey?

Posted on: 2011/1/12 20:26
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robotjustin wrote:
You know, you'd figure something called "mass transit" would figure out a way to subsidize itself.



The Federal government and the state government pour money into highway projects from the general treasury fund. If highways were required to be self sufficient, no one would own a car. But thats not how it happened. Instead, since World War II, the Federal government has subsidized the automobile to make it artificially inexpensive.

The public benefits whenever more people ride mass transit. It means fewer cars -- which in turn means to lower maintenance costs for the roadway, fewer traffic accidents, fewer projects to expand the highway system. A single train can haul more passengers than a lane of highway can move cars in an hour.

Posted on: 2011/1/12 19:38
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You know, you'd figure something called "mass transit" would figure out a way to subsidize itself.

Posted on: 2011/1/12 19:21
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I'm glad to see the Democrats are finally stepping up to play hard ball with Christie, but as a public policy, those tolls should be higher, so should gas tax, and they should all be subsidizing mass transit.

Posted on: 2011/1/12 19:08
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