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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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hero69 wrote:
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MDM wrote:
I ran up $76k in credit cards at one point.


Damn, how did you sleep with that over you!! But wait, aren't gentrifiers supposed to be "rich white assholes" instead of someone willing to put it ALL on the line in a gamble on a neighborhood and work his ass off?

May I point out "real" gentrifying is not a slam dunk. Lafayette and the nearby pretty but poor hoods have kicked the crap out of repeated waves of investors, obstinately refusing to turn the corner. I bet on the Palisade & Congress area 10 years ago, and it has taken this long to finally look like it's getting some momentum. 2 years ago I was getting appraisals as low as 65% of purchase on it.
bergen-lafayette is just too far from convenient public transport to gentrify. i'd bet on the heights, union city, bayonne, harrison and east new york before BL.

Admit it, you have never been to BL if you did you would know they have three lightrail stations to the heights one. You seem to make up shit, when every thing you say can be verified at a click of a button.
trust me, i've been all over bl, west bergen and greenville...i know the areas pretty well.....houses in these areas are cheap for a reason, even the beautiful ones.....get rid of all the rampant crime/troublemakers and maybe people might want to live there

Posted on: 2015/1/6 3:43
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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hero69 wrote:
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brewster wrote:
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MDM wrote:
I ran up $76k in credit cards at one point.


Damn, how did you sleep with that over you!! But wait, aren't gentrifiers supposed to be "rich white assholes" instead of someone willing to put it ALL on the line in a gamble on a neighborhood and work his ass off?

May I point out "real" gentrifying is not a slam dunk. Lafayette and the nearby pretty but poor hoods have kicked the crap out of repeated waves of investors, obstinately refusing to turn the corner. I bet on the Palisade & Congress area 10 years ago, and it has taken this long to finally look like it's getting some momentum. 2 years ago I was getting appraisals as low as 65% of purchase on it.
bergen-lafayette is just too far from convenient public transport to gentrify. i'd bet on the heights, union city, bayonne, harrison and east new york before BL.

Admit it, you have never been to BL if you did you would know they have three lightrail stations to the heights one. You seem to make up shit, when every thing you say can be verified at a click of a button.

Posted on: 2015/1/6 3:31
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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brewster wrote:
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MDM wrote:
I ran up $76k in credit cards at one point.


Damn, how did you sleep with that over you!! But wait, aren't gentrifiers supposed to be "rich white assholes" instead of someone willing to put it ALL on the line in a gamble on a neighborhood and work his ass off?

May I point out "real" gentrifying is not a slam dunk. Lafayette and the nearby pretty but poor hoods have kicked the crap out of repeated waves of investors, obstinately refusing to turn the corner. I bet on the Palisade & Congress area 10 years ago, and it has taken this long to finally look like it's getting some momentum. 2 years ago I was getting appraisals as low as 65% of purchase on it.
bergen-lafayette is just too far from convenient public transport to gentrify. i'd bet on the heights, union city, bayonne, harrison and east new york before BL.

Posted on: 2015/1/6 3:20
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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MDM wrote:
I ran up $76k in credit cards at one point.


Damn, how did you sleep with that over you!! But wait, aren't gentrifiers supposed to be "rich white assholes" instead of someone willing to put it ALL on the line in a gamble on a neighborhood and work his ass off?

May I point out "real" gentrifying is not a slam dunk. Lafayette and the nearby pretty but poor hoods have kicked the crap out of repeated waves of investors, obstinately refusing to turn the corner. I bet on the Palisade & Congress area 10 years ago, and it has taken this long to finally look like it's getting some momentum. 2 years ago I was getting appraisals as low as 65% of purchase on it.

Posted on: 2015/1/6 3:09
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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Among the many problems with this thesis is that the real gentrifiers, not the carpetbagger developers that follow them, are hardly rich.



I ran up $76k in credit cards at one point. Couldn't get financing at the time (that changed when new community banks were formed). I don't remember any "rich asshole white people" doing what I was doing at the time (late '90s). I just saw other small time developers or younger new homeowners buying up distressed aka cheap properties (paid $84k for my place.. it smelled like stale curry).


Posted on: 2015/1/6 0:38
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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There is a fundamental difference between an upwardly mobile minority population ascending into a higher social class and entering into a domain that traditionally prohibits them -- that is, a black family working into the middle-class and buying into a white neighborhood -- and bourgeois whites descending upon a working class neighborhood simply because they can and the people living there lack the financial solvency or legal status to remain.

The transformation of upper and middle-class white neighborhoods into upper and middle-class black neighborhoods is not at all the same thing as rich white assholes buying up property in neighborhoods filled with poor minorities and displacing them.
i bet the black owners in harlem who are cashing out would say that they should be able to sell to the highest bidder, regardless of race/social status since it was these ownrs who maintained the property, took the risks

Posted on: 2015/1/5 23:11
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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This is spurious because the phantom white menace you describe does not exist. White people move for the same reasons other people move--for cheaper rent or a smaller mortgage, a bigger or better house, better schools. There is no malice or "assholedom". You complain about white people moving out of certain neighborhoods in the white flight era, and then complain about white people moving back into the same neighborhoods in the gentrification era. Only one or the other can be morally wrong--they can't both be.


To be clear, that most of those people are assholes has nothing to do with their gentrification, but simply an observation that most rich white people tend to be assholes.



Rich people tend to be assholes because they are more detached from the average person.

What would being white have to do with it?

Posted on: 2015/1/5 23:03
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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ianmac47 wrote
To be clear, that most of those people are assholes has nothing to do with their gentrification, but simply an observation that most rich white people tend to be assholes.


Among the many problems with this thesis is that the real gentrifiers, not the carpetbagger developers that follow them, are hardly rich. We were looking for something we could no longer afford in areas we might prefer, whether to buy or rent. My wife and I were extremely lucky to have just enough cash scraped together to buy a place Downtown with rentals, for the price of a small 1 bedroom in Manhattan. Doing it in 97 was impeccable timing, but that was luck too (read Outliers). We had a neighbor who bought her HP townhouse in 79 for $10k done on credit cards. Does this maker her or us "rich white assholes"?

Posted on: 2015/1/5 22:49
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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user1111 wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Conformist wrote:
This is spurious because the phantom white menace you describe does not exist. White people move for the same reasons other people move--for cheaper rent or a smaller mortgage, a bigger or better house, better schools. There is no malice or "assholedom". You complain about white people moving out of certain neighborhoods in the white flight era, and then complain about white people moving back into the same neighborhoods in the gentrification era. Only one or the other can be morally wrong--they can't both be.


To be clear, that most of those people are assholes has nothing to do with their gentrification, but simply an observation that most rich white people tend to be assholes.


wow I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion.


No matter how assholish it is, lol.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 20:38
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Conformist wrote:
This is spurious because the phantom white menace you describe does not exist. White people move for the same reasons other people move--for cheaper rent or a smaller mortgage, a bigger or better house, better schools. There is no malice or "assholedom". You complain about white people moving out of certain neighborhoods in the white flight era, and then complain about white people moving back into the same neighborhoods in the gentrification era. Only one or the other can be morally wrong--they can't both be.


To be clear, that most of those people are assholes has nothing to do with their gentrification, but simply an observation that most rich white people tend to be assholes.


wow I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 20:25
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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Conformist wrote:
This is spurious because the phantom white menace you describe does not exist. White people move for the same reasons other people move--for cheaper rent or a smaller mortgage, a bigger or better house, better schools. There is no malice or "assholedom". You complain about white people moving out of certain neighborhoods in the white flight era, and then complain about white people moving back into the same neighborhoods in the gentrification era. Only one or the other can be morally wrong--they can't both be.


To be clear, that most of those people are assholes has nothing to do with their gentrification, but simply an observation that most rich white people tend to be assholes.


Posted on: 2015/1/5 20:22
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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ianmac47 wrote:
There is a fundamental difference between an upwardly mobile minority population ascending into a higher social class and entering into a domain that traditionally prohibits them -- that is, a black family working into the middle-class and buying into a white neighborhood -- and bourgeois whites descending upon a working class neighborhood simply because they can and the people living there lack the financial solvency or legal status to remain.

The transformation of upper and middle-class white neighborhoods into upper and middle-class black neighborhoods is not at all the same thing as rich white assholes buying up property in neighborhoods filled with poor minorities and displacing them.


This is spurious because the phantom white menace you describe does not exist. White people move for the same reasons other people move--for cheaper rent or a smaller mortgage, a bigger or better house, better schools. There is no malice or "assholedom". You complain about white people moving out of certain neighborhoods in the white flight era, and then complain about white people moving back into the same neighborhoods in the gentrification era. Only one or the other can be morally wrong--they can't both be.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 20:15
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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marullos88 wrote:
It doesn't matter who was there first.

What matters is that everyone needs a place to live, within reasonable commuting distance to employment.

This concerns not only low wage workers, but middle class workers as well. Housing in the NYC metro area (which JC is part of) is increasingly unaffordable, so much so that even the so called middle class can't afford to live in it either.

I think gentrification would be great, if neighborhoods maintained a mixed housing quality to it. Who doesn't like a cleaner, safer place, with interesting amenities? But let's not forget everyone needs a job, and a place to live that isn't 2 hours away from it.


Well said, I think personally I like how Williamsburg has done it. Its packed with newbies but also all the old timers are still there. I went to visit not too long ago and my childhood pharmacy is still there next to some new hip bar.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 20:15
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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There is a fundamental difference between an upwardly mobile minority population ascending into a higher social class and entering into a domain that traditionally prohibits them -- that is, a black family working into the middle-class and buying into a white neighborhood -- and bourgeois whites descending upon a working class neighborhood simply because they can and the people living there lack the financial solvency or legal status to remain.

The transformation of upper and middle-class white neighborhoods into upper and middle-class black neighborhoods is not at all the same thing as rich white assholes buying up property in neighborhoods filled with poor minorities and displacing them.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 20:13
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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Yes, this is true. They were Black Jews


There were never more than about 100 members of the various black Jewish sects, which only existed in Harlem precisely because there were a lot of white Jews there (who were, in that era, often highly sympathetic to black civil rights causes, which spurred a belief among some that blacks should convert away from "the religion of slavery," Christianity, to Judaism--similar to the later Islamic conversions in the 1950s and 60s). White Jews easily outnumbered blacks in Harlem from the earliest urban development of Harlem in the late 19th century until the mid-1920s or so, and only disappeared as a significant population around the time of World War II.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 20:12
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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It doesn't matter who was there first.

What matters is that everyone needs a place to live, within reasonable commuting distance to employment.

This concerns not only low wage workers, but middle class workers as well. Housing in the NYC metro area (which JC is part of) is increasingly unaffordable, so much so that even the so called middle class can't afford to live in it either.

I think gentrification would be great, if neighborhoods maintained a mixed housing quality to it. Who doesn't like a cleaner, safer place, with interesting amenities? But let's not forget everyone needs a job, and a place to live that isn't 2 hours away from it.


Posted on: 2015/1/5 20:06
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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Yes, this is true. They were Black Jews

Posted on: 2015/1/5 19:52
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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JGJDNYCJC wrote:
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:
For me, the most patronizing - and historically inaccurate - attitude expressed by those who criticize the renewal of urban neighborhoods is that it is "urban colonialism". Most of the neighborhoods that see an influx of new residents, in NYC and DTJC, where built in the late 1800s/early 1900s, well before the historic black and Puerto Rican (I'm less clear on other Latin/Central American communities) migration of the mid-20th century. Many, many of these neighborhoods are attractive in part because of their proximity to the city center and their substantial building stock - they were built by residents of means.

The socio-economic subtext is true - but this is an old story. My maternal grandparents were "gentrified" out of their old Polish-American neighborhood in Chicopee, MA in the 1960s and 70s - they were never property owners, but took meticulous care of their rented homes.

If we are going to question whether the arrival of wealthier people in an existing urban neighborhood and a related increase in rents and property values, and changes in the district's character and culture is a good thing or not, it's only fair to ask if continuing to enable poor people, who won't or can't become stakeholders or contribute to the enhancement of their neighborhoods, is a bad thing.


I agree. Harlem, was majority White until the 1920s, when it turned majority-Black. East Harlem used to be heavily Italian until it went majority Hispanic in the mid-20th Century. So this notion (as posited by Spike Lee for example), that newer arrivistes are "bogarting" or "columbus-ing" is both self-serving and historically inaccurate.




Harlem was black day 1, Harlem was developed for whites but the whites back then thought it was too far uptown, so blacks from The Union Square area were moved there instead. Since the 1920s, Harlem has been known as a major African-American residential, cultural and business center.
harlem was a rich jewish enclave before the blacks moved in and the whites moved to white plains, connecticut, elsewhere. i also think the race riots may have played a part in harlem's earlier decline

Posted on: 2015/1/5 19:27
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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user1111 wrote:

Harlem was black day 1, Harlem was developed for whites but the whites back then thought it was too far uptown, so blacks from The Union Square area were moved there instead. Since the 1920s, Harlem has been known as a major African-American residential, cultural and business center.


Wikipedia disagrees. But to each their own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem#Population_and_demographics


Anyone can update wiki, my source is PBS a walk through Harlem.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 18:56
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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user1111 wrote:

Harlem was black day 1, Harlem was developed for whites but the whites back then thought it was too far uptown, so blacks from The Union Square area were moved there instead. Since the 1920s, Harlem has been known as a major African-American residential, cultural and business center.


Wikipedia disagrees. But to each their own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem#Population_and_demographics

Posted on: 2015/1/5 18:55
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:
For me, the most patronizing - and historically inaccurate - attitude expressed by those who criticize the renewal of urban neighborhoods is that it is "urban colonialism". Most of the neighborhoods that see an influx of new residents, in NYC and DTJC, where built in the late 1800s/early 1900s, well before the historic black and Puerto Rican (I'm less clear on other Latin/Central American communities) migration of the mid-20th century. Many, many of these neighborhoods are attractive in part because of their proximity to the city center and their substantial building stock - they were built by residents of means.

The socio-economic subtext is true - but this is an old story. My maternal grandparents were "gentrified" out of their old Polish-American neighborhood in Chicopee, MA in the 1960s and 70s - they were never property owners, but took meticulous care of their rented homes.

If we are going to question whether the arrival of wealthier people in an existing urban neighborhood and a related increase in rents and property values, and changes in the district's character and culture is a good thing or not, it's only fair to ask if continuing to enable poor people, who won't or can't become stakeholders or contribute to the enhancement of their neighborhoods, is a bad thing.


I agree. Harlem, was majority White until the 1920s, when it turned majority-Black. East Harlem used to be heavily Italian until it went majority Hispanic in the mid-20th Century. So this notion (as posited by Spike Lee for example), that newer arrivistes are "bogarting" or "columbus-ing" is both self-serving and historically inaccurate.




Harlem was black day 1, Harlem was developed for whites but the whites back then thought it was too far uptown, so blacks from The Union Square area were moved there instead. Since the 1920s, Harlem has been known as a major African-American residential, cultural and business center.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 18:53
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:
For me, the most patronizing - and historically inaccurate - attitude expressed by those who criticize the renewal of urban neighborhoods is that it is "urban colonialism". Most of the neighborhoods that see an influx of new residents, in NYC and DTJC, where built in the late 1800s/early 1900s, well before the historic black and Puerto Rican (I'm less clear on other Latin/Central American communities) migration of the mid-20th century. Many, many of these neighborhoods are attractive in part because of their proximity to the city center and their substantial building stock - they were built by residents of means.

The socio-economic subtext is true - but this is an old story. My maternal grandparents were "gentrified" out of their old Polish-American neighborhood in Chicopee, MA in the 1960s and 70s - they were never property owners, but took meticulous care of their rented homes.

If we are going to question whether the arrival of wealthier people in an existing urban neighborhood and a related increase in rents and property values, and changes in the district's character and culture is a good thing or not, it's only fair to ask if continuing to enable poor people, who won't or can't become stakeholders or contribute to the enhancement of their neighborhoods, is a bad thing.


I agree. Harlem, was majority White until the 1920s, when it turned majority-Black. East Harlem used to be heavily Italian until it went majority Hispanic in the mid-20th Century. So this notion (as posited by Spike Lee for example), that newer arrivistes are "bogarting" or "columbus-ing" is both self-serving and historically inaccurate.



Posted on: 2015/1/5 18:37
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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For me, the most patronizing - and historically inaccurate - attitude expressed by those who criticize the renewal of urban neighborhoods is that it is "urban colonialism". Most of the neighborhoods that see an influx of new residents, in NYC and DTJC, where built in the late 1800s/early 1900s, well before the historic black and Puerto Rican (I'm less clear on other Latin/Central American communities) migration of the mid-20th century. Many, many of these neighborhoods are attractive in part because of their proximity to the city center and their substantial building stock - they were built by residents of means.

The socio-economic subtext is true - but this is an old story. My maternal grandparents were "gentrified" out of their old Polish-American neighborhood in Chicopee, MA in the 1960s and 70s - they were never property owners, but took meticulous care of their rented homes.

If we are going to question whether the arrival of wealthier people in an existing urban neighborhood and a related increase in rents and property values, and changes in the district's character and culture is a good thing or not, it's only fair to ask if continuing to enable poor people, who won't or can't become stakeholders or contribute to the enhancement of their neighborhoods, is a bad thing.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 18:19
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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Monroe wrote:
Not my favorite guy, but Sweeney continues to push for common sense shared services-but his fellow Democrats (especially in the Assembly) oppose it because of union opposition. Which is why it's needed in the first place!



He also pushed for pension reform nearly a decade ago... putting NJ Pension system on something similar to the the Federal Thrift Savings plan program.

The public service unions verbally ripped Sweeney's balls off for his efforts. In 2010, NJ pension were about 45% funded and ready to run out of money around 2019.

No idea what the new flat broke date is.. I do know the pension plans are still in the red though.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 4:34
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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Not my favorite guy, but Sweeney continues to push for common sense shared services-but his fellow Democrats (especially in the Assembly) oppose it because of union opposition. Which is why it's needed in the first place!

Posted on: 2015/1/5 1:29
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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Monroe wrote:
in NJ, is that we have about the same land mass in Essex County as Las Vegas, but have dozens and dozens of police forces-each with their own chain of command replicated over and over.


Rinse and repeat for FD, sanitation, and 590 schools districts throughout NJ, and you can see where our taxes go. If Hudson County were one city, as it would be almost anywhere else, it would be both bigger by population and denser than Boston, Denver, Seattle, DC, and Portland. Bending this around to the OP, whatever the displacement issues of gentrification, if you look at the county as a city, there's still plenty of room for the poor.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 1:22
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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The high overtime lately has been with the protests, same as it was when the Occustoners were out and about. What I do agree with, in NJ, is that we have about the same land mass in Essex County as Las Vegas, but have dozens and dozens of police forces-each with their own chain of command replicated over and over.

Your crack about them being racially insensitive is silly, though-do you know the racial representative of the NYPD? It's about half white, half other races. Next year whites will be the minority.

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ianmac47 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
At this point we can distinguish between public and private sector unions. Private sector unions are pretty much self supporting, it's the public sector unions that cost the average taxpayer so much due to their political influence.



There could be some truth to this. Just consider how the police unions have bilked NYC out of millions in overtime payments, high pensions, and outrageous healthcare all while systematically oppressing minorities and abusing their power. Where are the unions on that? They're disrespecting de Blasio -- at funerals no less while obstructing any kind of change that would address the concerns of civil rights activists. And these kinds of abuses aren't just happening in NYC, but everywhere.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 0:48
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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Monroe wrote:
At this point we can distinguish between public and private sector unions. Private sector unions are pretty much self supporting, it's the public sector unions that cost the average taxpayer so much due to their political influence.



There could be some truth to this. Just consider how the police unions have bilked NYC out of millions in overtime payments, high pensions, and outrageous healthcare all while systematically oppressing minorities and abusing their power. Where are the unions on that? They're disrespecting de Blasio -- at funerals no less while obstructing any kind of change that would address the concerns of civil rights activists. And these kinds of abuses aren't just happening in NYC, but everywhere.

Posted on: 2015/1/5 0:33
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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ianmac47 wrote:
All of this is primarily relevant because correlating with the declining role of labor unions has been the declining percentage of the percent of GDP held by the middle-class, parallels the decline in real wages, and the growing wealth disparity, and a strong middle-class would have more power to withstand the assault of rising costs that comes with gentrification.


Correlation does not equal causation.

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Finally, if you aren't joking about the power of labor unions, if you truly, honestly believe they are dangerous and power cabal of working people meant to steal your money, that is yet another symptom of the decline of labor unions' power: an unsophisticated electorate so critically simplistic that it accepts conservative propaganda from spokespeople paid to feed them talking points.


I never said what you claim I said. I said that unions are led by wolves in sheep's clothing. And, that these so-called leaders are not at all representative of their memberships. Often extracting exorbitant salaries, ancillary income and/or perks. And, I do stand by what I *did* say: that unions are power hungry organizations.

Posted on: 2015/1/4 15:43
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Re: Is 'Gentrification' good for Jersey City?
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At this point we can distinguish between public and private sector unions. Private sector unions are pretty much self supporting, it's the public sector unions that cost the average taxpayer so much due to their political influence.

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bodhipooh wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
...unions are undermined in their political power...


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ianmac47 also wrote:
The best way to fight the negative effects of gentrification is through building a strong middle-class that has the economic power to resist gentrification and the political power to defend themselves. That means stronger unions, higher corporate taxes, and better public services.


Your post was well reasoned and you had me until you said the above. Unions are way too powerful (particularly in our region) and I don't see how you draw a link between unions and gentrification and middle class. From where I stand, I see unions as nothing more than power hungry organizations, led by wolves in sheep's clothing that claim to be looking out for their members but are drawing exorbitant salaries and/or perks and are nothing short of extortionists.


Posted on: 2015/1/4 15:35
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