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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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brewster wrote:

And not just Downtown. Some of the hottest parts of the Heights are close to the Supremo or Hoboken Shoprite where you can pop in on foot to pick up that night's groceries.


Both of which have parking lots. The Hoboken one in particular is incredibly large. And the Hoboken Shoprite is not a quick, close "pop in" to most of the heights.

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JCMan8 wrote:

Some of you still don't get it. Putting "city" in italics doesn't mean JC somehow isnt a driving city. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise, most JC residents have cars because they need them.

The only way this will change is by dramatically improving public transport. I don't see that happening any time soon, so cars reign supreme for the simple reason that many have no choice but to use them.


Bingo. Public transport is vaguely mediocre. Until there's expansion, the driving culture is simply not going to change.

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tommyc_37 wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... _households_without_a_car

This number will inevitably climb, substantially, year over year, for the next 2 decades. We are already #3 in the US. Also, if you were to look at Downtown JC only (which is where this development in question is located), I imagine this percentage would be significantly higher, probably 55% like NYC or even higher.



And that's a good thing. As I've stated in this thread, I don't drive. I don't own a car. The only reason I give fuk one about this issue is that should there not be parking - and I am told there is - is that without some form of parking lot, I think there's a solid chance that SR would not be a viable business, and thus shut down. That is quite literally the only thing I give a rat's ass about in regards to this.

Also, judging by the fact that on-street parking is always full and every garage has a car in it, you'd be wrong. There are a lot less parking spots and a lot less buildings with 1- or more- car garages while also having a ton more people.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 18:05
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... _households_without_a_car

This number will inevitably climb, substantially, year over year, for the next 2 decades. We are already #3 in the US. Also, if you were to look at Downtown JC only (which is where this development in question is located), I imagine this percentage would be significantly higher, probably 55% like NYC or even higher.


Posted on: 2015/2/6 17:49
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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JCMan8 wrote:

Some of you still don't get it. Putting "city" in italics doesn't mean JC somehow isnt a driving city. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise, most JC residents have cars because they need them.

The only way this will change is by dramatically improving public transport. I don't see that happening any time soon, so cars reign supreme for the simple reason that many have no choice but to use them.


Considering the fact the JC has the 3rd highest percentage of car free homes in the country (behind NY and Newark), I wonder just how high the percentage has to go before it isn't a 'driving city.'


Posted on: 2015/2/6 16:52
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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tommyc_37 wrote:

I just wish that people would embrace the density, which is both natural and inevitable. It will make this a more vibrant place. Do we want Jersey City to become a Columbus, OH or Charlotte, NC clone?


Thank you. I picked JC because I don't want to have a suburban experience. If I wanted that I have about 500 other municipalities in NJ to choose from.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 16:48
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Does anybody know if a lot of the high-rise developments in Brooklyn and Queens have as much parking as Jersey City's buildings have typically been including?


This has been a major issue with creating new housing in Brooklyn in Queens -- antiquated parking requirements, especially on smaller buildings -- lead to higher costs for construction and often oddly designed buildings with parking at street level.


Yes--in many places in Brooklyn parking requirements are actually higher than they are in DTJC. Often a 1-1 ratio of parking spaces to units (whereas DTJC is closer to 0.75-1 typically, though some buildings have more). NYC has reduced the number of parking spaces needed in some places but has also been slow to change things.

Pretty sure it's less of an issue in Long Island City because recent rezonings reduced parking requirements substantially. Also, there are fewer entrenched interests of local car owners that demand more parking spaces despite the plethora of empty parking decks than in Brooklyn or DTJC because Long Island City was mostly industrial before the recent boom (and still has abundant street parking, with many streets that have perpendicular parking).


Half empty parking decks located a mile away aren't much use to someone going grocery shopping...

Posted on: 2015/2/6 16:46
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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ianmac47 wrote:
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Does anybody know if a lot of the high-rise developments in Brooklyn and Queens have as much parking as Jersey City's buildings have typically been including?


This has been a major issue with creating new housing in Brooklyn in Queens -- antiquated parking requirements, especially on smaller buildings -- lead to higher costs for construction and often oddly designed buildings with parking at street level.


Yes--in many places in Brooklyn parking requirements are actually higher than they are in DTJC. Often a 1-1 ratio of parking spaces to units (whereas DTJC is closer to 0.75-1 typically, though some buildings have more). NYC has reduced the number of parking spaces needed in some places but has also been slow to change things.

Pretty sure it's less of an issue in Long Island City because recent rezonings reduced parking requirements substantially. Also, there are fewer entrenched interests of local car owners that demand more parking spaces despite the plethora of empty parking decks than in Brooklyn or DTJC because Long Island City was mostly industrial before the recent boom (and still has abundant street parking, with many streets that have perpendicular parking).

Posted on: 2015/2/6 16:36
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Does anybody know if a lot of the high-rise developments in Brooklyn and Queens have as much parking as Jersey City's buildings have typically been including?


This has been a major issue with creating new housing in Brooklyn in Queens -- antiquated parking requirements, especially on smaller buildings -- lead to higher costs for construction and often oddly designed buildings with parking at street level.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 16:14
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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corybraiterman wrote:
Again, this is New Jersey. People have cars, whether you like it or not, whether you drive or don't. People do large scale grocery shopping and pile it up to the point where one needs transportation.

As a point of contention... New Jersey is a state. We live in Jersey City. New York, the state, has a lot of people with cars. Have you ever been up to Buffalo or Syracuse?

Given that much of the land of New York State uses cars, should New York City require parking decks for new buildings?

It isn't a matter of whether I like it or not, it is a matter of adjusting to the environment in the appropriate manner. We live in a city. it isn't as dense as Manhattan, but it is pretty damn close to Queens (denser than some parts, less dense than others). As such, the lifestyle chosen should match the environment you are in.

There is no law about going to the grocery store and stocking up bags of food like you're about to wait out the winter. People need to recalibrate their qualifications on behavior.

I may live in the state of New Jersey, but I do not live in Hunterdon County.


Some of you still don't get it. Putting "city" in italics doesn't mean JC somehow isnt a driving city. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise, most JC residents have cars because they need them.

The only way this will change is by dramatically improving public transport. I don't see that happening any time soon, so cars reign supreme for the simple reason that many have no choice but to use them.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 16:12
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Just because there are currently some people in Jersey City who choose the suburban method of driving, parking in a parking lot, and buying 30 bags of groceries, doesn't mean that Jersey City, which is aggressively changing, should pander to the needs of those people who choose to do that. That is not sustainable and not smart development. That's all I'm saying. That style of living is more at home in the suburbs, or even some non-downtown parts of Jersey City. If you look at the farthest stretches of all of the outer boroughs, people still often live this way, in a more car-centric manner. But not in an extremely dense, urban core, which is what Downtown Jersey City already is and becoming more so.


And not just Downtown. Some of the hottest parts of the Heights are close to the Supremo or Hoboken Shoprite where you can pop in on foot to pick up that night's groceries.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 16:11
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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The ShopRite, BY FAR, has the best selection... including higher end brands. Last holiday season I did a huge dinner that included produce, meats, and seasoning that I figured I would have to find in the city - all of it came form ShopRite (and it was all excellent quality).

The only thing that I could not find was cipollini onions.


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trambone wrote:
Also what is with all the Shoprite hate? They have a decent variety of produce that can satisfy multiple flavor palettes. The produce they have is for the most part fresh and ripe. Unlike the local Pathmarks, in Jersey City, which I have seen many pieces of produce molding and starting to rot remain on the shelves. The fish counter, appy, and butcher department have a wide array of products that are well butchered. Unlike the A&P the shoprite is still priced for a middle to upper middle class family.

The A&P and Pathmark are both way overpriced for the quality of the goods they sell.


Posted on: 2015/2/6 16:06
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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Oh my God. Yes! I wish Jersey City could be a LOT more like Columbus. Huge, highly regarded university and the culture and entertainment that provides. Much lower crime. Much cleaner. Safer pedestrian/biking environment. Higher consistent level of education among the adult population. Much better public schools.

There are elements of Jersey City I prefer, certainly, but (and we always come back to this) just saying "but we are right next to NYC" isn't good enough. I want the amenities of something that begins to resemble "the best mid-sized city in the country" to be actually in my city and not require a half hour trip to get to them. At this point, attaining "Best mediocre city" would be a big improvement.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 16:03
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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07310 wrote:
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trambone wrote:
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Does anybody know if a lot of the high-rise developments in Brooklyn and Queens have as much parking as Jersey City's buildings have typically been including?


Those areas have an actual public transportation system that works.


+100

I would prefer to have garages and require cars to be parked in the garage and not parked on the street. Denying people parking will not discourage people from owning cars. We live in an area with limited public transportation options not Manhattan which has multiple options that work.


See, it's not even public transit that is really very much of a factor here.

The inevitable fact is, the area is about to get a huge increase in density. There will be enough customers within 0.5 mile that people don't have to come by public transit (or personal vehicle) to park there. I would actually suppose that there might already be close to enough density in the area around ShopRite to draw majority of customers from the immediate area.

The concept of redeveloping an urban city involves the concept of having amenities such as markets, etc within walking distance so that those amenities pull from that immediate customer base, not necessarily from outside of it. For instance if you look at an extremely dense place like Manhattan, you don't generally see people taking the subway on a regular basis to do their food shopping. They might go once a week, and get a couple of bags worth of groceries and carry them home by hand.

Just because there are currently some people in Jersey City who choose the suburban method of driving, parking in a parking lot, and buying 30 bags of groceries, doesn't mean that Jersey City, which is aggressively changing, should pander to the needs of those people who choose to do that. That is not sustainable and not smart development. That's all I'm saying. That style of living is more at home in the suburbs, or even some non-downtown parts of Jersey City. If you look at the farthest stretches of all of the outer boroughs, people still often live this way, in a more car-centric manner. But not in an extremely dense, urban core, which is what Downtown Jersey City already is and becoming more so.

I just wish that people would embrace the density, which is both natural and inevitable. It will make this a more vibrant place. Do we want Jersey City to become a Columbus, OH or Charlotte, NC clone?

Posted on: 2015/2/6 14:39
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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trambone wrote:
Quote:

tommyc_37 wrote:
Does anybody know if a lot of the high-rise developments in Brooklyn and Queens have as much parking as Jersey City's buildings have typically been including?


Those areas have an actual public transportation system that works.


+100

I would prefer to have garages and require cars to be parked in the garage and not parked on the street. Denying people parking will not discourage people from owning cars. We live in an area with limited public transportation options not Manhattan which has multiple options that work.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 14:14
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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corybraiterman wrote:
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Again, this is New Jersey. People have cars, whether you like it or not, whether you drive or don't. People do large scale grocery shopping and pile it up to the point where one needs transportation.


You're painting with a pretty broad brush. Yes New Jersey when looked at holistically is a massive suburb, and everyone drives. Jersey City has almost nothing in common with the rest of NJ, in terms of landscape, culture, or lifestyle.

Jersey City is the 2nd densest city in the US and getting much denser, particularly downtown. Even if you could say it is a "driving city" now, it will not remain as a "driving city", and planning developments and not considering the future is foolish.

You say NYC is not a "driving city" which again paints with a broad brush. Queens is probably just as much of a driving area as Jersey City is. Actually if you take the majority of Queens and compare it with only Downtown Jersey City, I'd say Jersey City has less of a car culture.

I know there are people that drive. I'm just saying that planning developments with any sort of emphasis on driving/parking is not intelligent urban planning, and the opposite of what most urban cities are doing.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 14:12
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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corybraiterman wrote:
Again, this is New Jersey. People have cars, whether you like it or not, whether you drive or don't. People do large scale grocery shopping and pile it up to the point where one needs transportation.

As a point of contention... New Jersey is a state. We live in Jersey City. New York, the state, has a lot of people with cars. Have you ever been up to Buffalo or Syracuse?

Given that much of the land of New York State uses cars, should New York City require parking decks for new buildings?

It isn't a matter of whether I like it or not, it is a matter of adjusting to the environment in the appropriate manner. We live in a city. it isn't as dense as Manhattan, but it is pretty damn close to Queens (denser than some parts, less dense than others). As such, the lifestyle chosen should match the environment you are in.

There is no law about going to the grocery store and stocking up bags of food like you're about to wait out the winter. People need to recalibrate their qualifications on behavior.

I may live in the state of New Jersey, but I do not live in Hunterdon County.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 14:03
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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i LIKE shop-rite. why the hate? but i would love to see a costco, wegman's, trader joes, fairway, and/or whole foods in dtjc

Posted on: 2015/2/6 12:14
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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brewster wrote:

Home Depot seems to have dealt with it. There's some big shopping centers in Queens that have no open deck parking at all. But what about BJ's? I'd replace it with Costco in an instant but it's still better than nothing.


HD has parking on the upper level and a loading bay/area for people to pick up purchases/temporarily park vans, etc. Queens is not the rest of the country. NYC is not a driving city. Like it or not, NJ is an area where a ton of people drive regularly. I don't drive, so it won't have any effect on me, but that seems like that would hurt the business and inconvenience the neighborhood significantly. Families still buy carloads of groceries every week or two - you want them taking up every nearby parking spot on the street? Or just being forced to take their business elsewhere? That'd probably put SR out of business, because their model is volume, not high prices.

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tommyc_37 wrote:
Thank goodness there is no parking incorporated into the proposed master plan - it would destroy any effort in re-urbanizing the area.

I'm actually surprised at the positioning of "preservation of Shoprite" as some sort of victory - a large scale market in the development would be almost necessary, yes, but doesn't the area deserve higher quality than SR? I'm not a huge hater of ShopRite, but if we're revamping that whole plot of land, can't we shoot for a higher caliber market?


Again, this is New Jersey. People have cars, whether you like it or not, whether you drive or don't. People do large scale grocery shopping and pile it up to the point where one needs transportation.

There are plenty of upscale markets. There is quite literally one supermarket in the area with the combination of low price and adequate quality, and that's shoprite. Morton Williams, A&P and Key have consistently higher prices barring the occasional sale item. Pathmark is awful quality. Shoprite's sales blow the other sales out of the water, especially during their can-can sale.

Eff a Whole Wallet, and as much as I do like TJ's for various things, outside of their frozen/pre-packaged foods, there's not much I actually like to buy there, and they don't do sales that make stocking up worth anything. Go to Talde's new upscale market if you want. Judging by their constant flow of customers, I'd say there are plenty of people who just want a nice, inexpensive supermarket.

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HCResident wrote:

Who said there is no parking in this plan? I was at the public presentation given by the developers, and I'm pretty sure all (or the majority) of these buildings have parking in them. It's just that the parking structures have to be concealed so that the buildings don't look like the typical JC towers sprouting from a parking deck. It's sort of the 225 Grand model, where the parking is built in and behind the facade.


Good. That is not indicated on (admittedly a poor quality pic). Again, it's no scratch off my nose, but no parking means SR probably leaves, which defeats the point.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 9:34
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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trambone wrote:
Also what is with all the Shoprite hate? They have a decent variety of produce that can satisfy multiple flavor palettes. The produce they have is for the most part fresh and ripe. Unlike the local Pathmarks, in Jersey City, which I have seen many pieces of produce molding and starting to rot remain on the shelves. The fish counter, appy, and butcher department have a wide array of products that are well butchered. Unlike the A&P the shoprite is still priced for a middle to upper middle class family.

The A&P and Pathmark are both way overpriced for the quality of the goods they sell.



Agreed, but the vocal few Shoprite haters obviously aren't very influential. It's packed all the time and for good reason.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 7:17
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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Also what is with all the Shoprite hate? They have a decent variety of produce that can satisfy multiple flavor palettes. The produce they have is for the most part fresh and ripe. Unlike the local Pathmarks, in Jersey City, which I have seen many pieces of produce molding and starting to rot remain on the shelves. The fish counter, appy, and butcher department have a wide array of products that are well butchered. Unlike the A&P the shoprite is still priced for a middle to upper middle class family.

The A&P and Pathmark are both way overpriced for the quality of the goods they sell.


Posted on: 2015/2/6 6:30
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Does anybody know if a lot of the high-rise developments in Brooklyn and Queens have as much parking as Jersey City's buildings have typically been including?


Those areas have an actual public transportation system that works.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 6:20
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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Does anybody know if a lot of the high-rise developments in Brooklyn and Queens have as much parking as Jersey City's buildings have typically been including?

Posted on: 2015/2/6 5:28
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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tommyc_37 wrote:
Thank goodness there is no parking incorporated into the proposed master plan - it would destroy any effort in re-urbanizing the area.

I'm actually surprised at the positioning of "preservation of Shoprite" as some sort of victory - a large scale market in the development would be almost necessary, yes, but doesn't the area deserve higher quality than SR? I'm not a huge hater of ShopRite, but if we're revamping that whole plot of land, can't we shoot for a higher caliber market?

All in all, the proposed plan seems pretty solid though.


Who said there is no parking in this plan? I was at the public presentation given by the developers, and I'm pretty sure all (or the majority) of these buildings have parking in them. It's just that the parking structures have to be concealed so that the buildings don't look like the typical JC towers sprouting from a parking deck. It's sort of the 225 Grand model, where the parking is built in and behind the facade.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 5:08
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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put shoprite parking below ground.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 4:56
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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FWIW, that park is not very much considering the density to be built around it. I did an overlay of VV park, it's like 40% the size, and VVP is half the size of HP. There are national standards of what's considered adequate parkspace per capita, we're WAY short, and this is more of the same.

Resized Image

Posted on: 2015/2/6 4:46
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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brewster wrote:
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corybraiterman wrote:
I am quite happy to learn they plan on keeping shoprite. Honestly, as long as they do that, I don't really care what else they want to do. That said, I do wonder how they plan on keeping this the way it is when they seem to have zero space available for parking.


Home Depot seems to have dealt with it. There's some big shopping centers in Queens that have no open deck parking at all. But what about BJ's? I'd replace it with Costco in an instant but it's still better than nothing.


I'm not so sure. I used to be a member there, not anymore.

The selection is pitiful compared to Costco and more importantly, you don't really save much money. You buy in bulk yet the price goes up proportionally. Hard to find a warehouse store that's a ripoff but the JC BJ's fits the bill. Good riddance.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 4:35
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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Thank goodness there is no parking incorporated into the proposed master plan - it would destroy any effort in re-urbanizing the area.

I'm actually surprised at the positioning of "preservation of Shoprite" as some sort of victory - a large scale market in the development would be almost necessary, yes, but doesn't the area deserve higher quality than SR? I'm not a huge hater of ShopRite, but if we're revamping that whole plot of land, can't we shoot for a higher caliber market?

All in all, the proposed plan seems pretty solid though.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 3:28
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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corybraiterman wrote:
I am quite happy to learn they plan on keeping shoprite. Honestly, as long as they do that, I don't really care what else they want to do. That said, I do wonder how they plan on keeping this the way it is when they seem to have zero space available for parking.


Home Depot seems to have dealt with it. There's some big shopping centers in Queens that have no open deck parking at all. But what about BJ's? I'd replace it with Costco in an instant but it's still better than nothing.

Posted on: 2015/2/6 2:29
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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I am quite happy to learn they plan on keeping shoprite. Honestly, as long as they do that, I don't really care what else they want to do. That said, I do wonder how they plan on keeping this the way it is when they seem to have zero space available for parking.


Posted on: 2015/2/6 1:26
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
#75
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moobycow wrote:
FYI the new siteplan was approved for this development on Tuesday night.

This is the plan I saw (not sure if it is exactly the same as what passed on Tuesday night). Sorry for the poor quality, it's all I have.

Resized Image


Anything would be an improvement on the current anti-urban morass.

Posted on: 2015/2/5 21:16
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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FYI the new siteplan was approved for this development on Tuesday night.

This is the plan I saw (not sure if it is exactly the same as what passed on Tuesday night). Sorry for the poor quality, it's all I have.

Resized Image

Posted on: 2015/2/5 21:12
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