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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne wrote:
I spoke to Councilman Boggiano yesterday and he said he brought someone over from the Polish Embassy to speak with Fulop and the mayor refused to speak with him. What a disgrace.


It’s interesting how some news sources are reporting this as an “international issue”. Because of that I was under the impression that the Katyn Memorial was gifted to Jersey City by the Polish government and it would be a slap in the face to move something that was accepted as a gift from another country.

I later found out that the Katyn Memorial was created by a JC resident who had a dream of seeing a Katyn Memorial in JC. He came up with the idea, designed it, accepted donations to have it made, and got the city to find a place for it. That place was on the median strip at 75 Montgomery Street. Somehow it wound up at Exchange Place.

What is the harm of putting it where is was originally intended to go? Some say it would be disrespectful to have it on a median yet the JCPD Fallen Officers Memorial is on the same median down the street near Marin Blvd. Some say how can a yearly observance be conducted in the middle of a busy street. Well rt 1&9 is shut down every year for the ceremony marking the deaths of the two JCPD officers who died at the Lincoln Bridge. Just get a permit and shut down the intersection for a few hours.

PS – they should really move it to in the Skyway Park (aka Marion Green Way Park) along the Hackensack River over on rt 440/1&9 near Sip Avenue. It would have the General Pulaski Skyway as a great back drop.

Posted on: 5/8 11:36
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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If this press conference is anything but a call to get community input, Fulop should be recalled immediately. This is a disgrace and beneath the office.

Posted on: 5/8 11:27
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Epic screwup by Fulop. Why bring a shit storm on yourself?

Posted on: 5/8 10:54
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Press conference @ City Hall Council Chambers TODAY at NOON

Posted on: 5/8 10:44
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I spoke to Councilman Boggiano yesterday and he said he brought someone over from the Polish Embassy to speak with Fulop and the mayor refused to speak with him. What a disgrace.

Posted on: 5/8 9:29
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Whether to move the Katyn monument is the wrong question. Exchange Place is the prime location for virtually all major JC cultural events. And Exchange Place should pay tribute to the full diversity of JC.

What should be given pride of place at Exchange Place? The 9-11 memorial? A cenotaph? Something else?

Posted on: 5/7 18:42
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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My understanding is that local Poles still commemorate anniversaries of the Katyn massacre at the memorial. If Fulop moves it to the median, how the hell are they going to do that?

I say move it to the tip of the Morris Canal Park.

Posted on: 5/7 9:16
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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It is a gruesome, but I am used to it now. If I had my choice, I’d rather not see it. Though, it might be better to put it to a vote. How many people in jersey city are of polish ancestry? Is the statue still relevant?

Posted on: 5/7 9:01
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Showtime wrote:
Quote:
light12v wrote:According to The One to be OBEYED


Did you mean Mack Cali?



NO.
'86 ordinance to original location was voted by JC city council.

'89 resolution to relocate to its present location was voted by JC city council.

NOW this Move, desired by a Fulop friendly Developer, is all of a sudden Mandated by Executive Tweet ??

https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992762417036890114


Posted on: 5/6 23:24
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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.
Fulop: '100%' WWII monument will be moved
updated 8:25 PM; Posted 5:47 PM (5/6/2018)
By Caitlin Mota The Jersey Journal

JERSEY CITY — The Exchange Place monument to the victims of a 1940 Polish massacre is "100% being moved" three blocks west from its longtime home, Mayor Steve Fulop said on social media Saturday morning.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... d.html#incart_2box_hudson

Posted on: 5/6 21:18
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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dr_nick_riviera wrote:
What are the NA positions on this? If so many local residents are opposed to moving this, why are the NAs not making statements to the mayor as such? Or has Yvonne effectively ordered them to keep quiet?


This is not about me nicky, although I do have a great deal of respect for the Polish people. I actually remember reading about St. Maximum Kolbe who gave his life for a Jewish man about to be executed by the Nazi. Kolbe was a Catholic priest who wrote articles condemning Nazis for rounding up Jewish people. When someone escaped from a Nazi camp, ten people was chosen to be executed, a Jewish man was in that list and cried because he had a wife and children. So Maximilian Kolbe volunteered to take his place. The Nazis went after the Jews but the Polish people did not fare well during the war. According to wikianswers, 3 million Catholic Polish people died under the Nazis regime.

Posted on: 5/6 16:30
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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What are the NA positions on this? If so many local residents are opposed to moving this, why are the NAs not making statements to the mayor as such? Or has Yvonne effectively ordered them to keep quiet?

Posted on: 5/6 15:58
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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light12v wrote:According to The One to be OBEYED


Did you mean Mack Cali?


Posted on: 5/6 15:16
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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(I found the below post #10 (2009/3/10 9:36) on this thread. I thought it was interesting. I didn’t realize the memorial is at Exchange Place because of one man’s push to get a Katyn Memorial in JC. BTW the READ MORE link is dead but his obit is still out there on the internet)



Quote:

MelissaSurach wrote:
I don't understand why people think that the artist didn't research the massacre before designing it. Stop talking out of your ass.

This is the latest article from the Jersey Journal on it.

Stanley Paszul, 85; got Katyn Memorial built
Wednesday, December 24, 2008
By TOM SHORTELL
JOURNAL STAFF WRITER

Stanley Paszul, 85, the driving force behind the Katyn Memorial at Exchange Place in Jersey City, died on Dec. 16.
READ MORE

By the way, it was my grandfather, who recently passed away. He worked with Andrzej Pityski, a prominent Polish sculptor. He was a carpenter. From my understanding, he made the mold for the statue. He used to have a mini war museum in his house on 7th Street. There were little wooden models of the statue all over his house. The house still says "Carpenter Shop" on it.

Posted on: 5/6 10:06
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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TheBigGuy wrote:
Curious is the Mayor ever had this similar hardline view when he represented Ward E?


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light12v wrote:
In Light of the following Fulop Tweet, why is OP taking a Survey of JC Citizens.....
According to The One to be OBEYED, it is DONE :::

https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992762417036890114


Not that I can recall, NEVER, as HE was Playing Reformer Councilman.
BUT Things Changed with his first term victory as Mayor.....wherein he HALTED THE WIP 90% COMPLETE REVAL before BEING SWORN IN & NOW WE ALL KNOW HOW THAT HAS PLAYED OUT !

Remember too, that the previous Ward E Councilperson under his 1st term as Boy King Mayor was HIS,,, a Team Fulop RubberStamp.....

James Solomon is Independent, so he is not Looped-In to any closed door Op's/Deals made between JC Corpoation Counsel, at Fulop's command, & opposing Attorneys.

Posted on: 5/6 0:13
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Curious is the Mayor ever had this similar hardline view when he represented Ward E?


Quote:

light12v wrote:
In Light of the following Fulop Tweet, why is OP taking a Survey of JC Citizens.....
According to The One to be OBEYED, it is DONE :::

https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992762417036890114

Posted on: 5/5 20:23
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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In Light of the following Fulop Tweet, why is OP taking a Survey of JC Citizens.....
According to The One to be OBEYED, it is DONE :::

https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992762417036890114

Posted on: 5/5 19:28
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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During the ''pro-old-timers'' term of Mayor Anthony Cucci of Jersey City, it was decided to put at Exchange Place a monument to the 1940 massacre of Polish soldiers in the Katyn forest. The 17-foot statue, a cavalryman with a bayonet through his back, is in the middle of what planners call ''the view corridor,'' framed by the World Trade Center Towers. That placement is itself a sort of memorial to the bygone strength of the old ethnic groups.

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/02/15/nyregion/on-the-waterfront.html

Posted on: 5/4 12:05
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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When former mayor Cucci passed away, the pastor from St. Anthony attended the wake. He told me he wanted to pay his respect to the mayor for putting up the Polish monument. As I stated before I believe all monuments should reflect American history. Then a larger Polish community lived in downtown JC which is evident by having two Polish language Catholic Churches, one in Paulus Hook and the other on 6th Street. It is a reflection of Polish history, plain and simple. Fulop's comments are off base.

Posted on: 5/4 9:54
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I would like to know when the city intends to remove the orange barriers outlining what I assume will be the park? Talk about unsightly and unpleasant.

Posted on: 5/4 7:55
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Jersey City, Polish officials trade barbs over massacre statue

The proposed removal of a memorial to the victims of a 1940 Polish massacre is officially an international incident, with Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop and Polish Senator Stanislaw Karczewski trading barbs about plans to find a new home for the statue.

Karczewski, speaker of Poland's senate, said Wednesday on Polish Radio that the push to move the Katyn memorial is "scandalous," while Fulop fired back with an accusation that Karczewski is a "known anti-Semite."

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... ords_over_massacre_s.html


Posted on: 5/4 0:34
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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stillinjc wrote:
Bayonne will take it.


In a twist, Bayonne Mayor Jimmy Davis Thursday evening offered to take the Katyn memorial if Jersey City doesn't want it.

"As mayor I would be proud to have it at one of our many of our wonderful parks, maybe at Rutkowski Park which is named in honor of one of Bayonne's most prominent Polish-American leaders," Davis said in a statement.

Posted on: 5/4 0:01
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I_heart_JC wrote:
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stillinjc wrote:
This monument was not meant to be bizarre. If it is perceived that way just signifies that it is artistically bad, way too literal.

You don't create Holocaust memorials depicting corpses being loaded into ovens.

The sculptor here resorted to shock value because he had no better ideas to convey the tragedy of mass murder of Polish war prisoners by the Soviets.



it's actually the opposite of literal. it is figurative.
first, they died of machine-gun fire (not bayonettes).
the earliest victims of the massacre were Polish military officers who were instructed not to resist the Russians, and were rounded up and imprisoned for their efforts. it was a huge betrayal, in addition to being a war crime.
they were "stabbed in the back" in the figurative sense.


Do you understand expression "way too literal"?

It does not mean "literal".



that is literally insane.

Posted on: 5/3 18:07
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I_heart_JC wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
This monument was not meant to be bizarre. If it is perceived that way just signifies that it is artistically bad, way too literal.

You don't create Holocaust memorials depicting corpses being loaded into ovens.

The sculptor here resorted to shock value because he had no better ideas to convey the tragedy of mass murder of Polish war prisoners by the Soviets.



it's actually the opposite of literal. it is figurative.
first, they died of machine-gun fire (not bayonettes).
the earliest victims of the massacre were Polish military officers who were instructed not to resist the Russians, and were rounded up and imprisoned for their efforts. it was a huge betrayal, in addition to being a war crime.
they were "stabbed in the back" in the figurative sense.


Do you understand expression "way too literal"?

It does not mean "literal".

"Way too literal" as in depicting murder.

In addition, they were not machine-gunned. They were shot from pistols in the back of the head.

Your point about "backstabbing" is valid. But also too literal to make the art powerful.

You want a powerful war crime (in this case Holocaust) memorial?

Check out the Berlin Holocaust memorial. Yes, different scale entirely, but no drastic sculptures there. They are not needed. The stelae say it all.

Posted on: 5/3 17:29
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HeightsNative wrote:
I'm going to make a suggestion, and I will try to stay as respectful as possible. Almost every single thread on here worth debating tends to diverge into a Yvonne vs. the world discussion. Let's try a month of completely ignoring any and all comments from Yvonne. I say that not out of disrespect to Yvonne (despite usually disagreeing with her views), but moreso out of respect for dialogue and discussion. Some of you (bodhipooh, etc.) raise great points and offer something to the discussion, and should keep it focused on that.

Can we at least try it? I mean literally no responding to or acknowledging Yvonne's responses, no matter how left field or out of order they are.


Or don't...


I applaud your effort.

Posted on: 5/3 15:37
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stillinjc wrote:
This monument was not meant to be bizarre. If it is perceived that way just signifies that it is artistically bad, way too literal.

You don't create Holocaust memorials depicting corpses being loaded into ovens.

The sculptor here resorted to shock value because he had no better ideas to convey the tragedy of mass murder of Polish war prisoners by the Soviets.



it's actually the opposite of literal. it is figurative.
first, they died of machine-gun fire (not bayonettes).
the earliest victims of the massacre were Polish military officers who were instructed not to resist the Russians, and were rounded up and imprisoned for their efforts. it was a huge betrayal, in addition to being a war crime.
they were "stabbed in the back" in the figurative sense.

Posted on: 5/3 15:34
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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CatDog wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
This monument was not meant to be bizarre. If it is perceived that way just signifies that it is artistically bad, way too literal.

You don't create Holocaust memorials depicting corpses being loaded into ovens.

The sculptor here resorted to shock value because he had no better ideas to convey the tragedy of mass murder of Polish war prisoners by the Soviets.
What about these?
Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image

(the last one is the irish hunger, not the holocaust)

look, just because you want life to be sunshine and roses doesn't mean it's a bad statue. It's a fantastic statue, and even if it moves, I hope it stays somewhere prominent. It's an icon of this city now, whether you like it or not.


The one that literally depicts murder (gassing with Zyklon B in Auschwitz) seem to be enclosed, so the public can make a choice to view them or not with their eyes wide open.

The others are striking (dead bodies, escapes, etc), but do not depict a graphic act of murder.






Posted on: 5/3 13:19
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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JClist should be renamed, Personal Attack Center, when individuals do not follow the herd. What a shame, this blog as the potential to make positive change.

Posted on: 5/3 11:59
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HeightsNative wrote:
I'm going to make a suggestion, and I will try to stay as respectful as possible. Almost every single thread on here worth debating tends to diverge into a Yvonne vs. the world discussion. Let's try a month of completely ignoring any and all comments from Yvonne. I say that not out of disrespect to Yvonne (despite usually disagreeing with her views), but moreso out of respect for dialogue and discussion. Some of you (bodhipooh, etc.) raise great points and offer something to the discussion, and should keep it focused on that.

Can we at least try it? I mean literally no responding to or acknowledging Yvonne's responses, no matter how left field or out of order they are.


Or don't...

Posted on: 5/3 11:35
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CatDog wrote:
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You are an example of a liberal who cannot take another point of view and makes personal attacks, something that is morally wrong because you have no facts.
says the lady whining about liberals that are pointing out how wrong she is. Every time someone calls you out on your BS you start crying about "wahhhh the liberals are being so mean to me" "wahhh it's because I'm a Catholic" "oooooh those mean liberals always trying to correct my lies"

You're over here complaining about statues for foreigners, and then demand we have public statues of religious symbols because there were priests on the ship with Columbus? Columbus, the foreign slave-driving psycopathic torture fanatic that never even set foot in the US?


I think we should replace the statue with a PC-friendly LGBT memorial or shrine. I bet she'll change her tune on Katyn real quick.

Posted on: 5/3 11:25
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