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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Yvonne wrote:
Nearly one third of Jersey City is a non-ratable, meaning they are not affected by the new taxes. Everyone is high because nearly $3 billion (2017) figure is not added to the ratable base. If taxes went up 3 or 4 times just multiply that $3 billion to $9 billion or $12 billion for the 2018 rate.


By none-ratable, do you mean the buildings with tax abatement? In that case, I don't think it's true that "they are not affected by the new taxes". I live in Liberty harbor which is supposed to have 20 year tax abatement and which I thought meant my taxes were supposed to change for 20 years . I got the similar letter telling me my taxes are going up too.



You need to check your offering statement (or governing documents) for the abatement agreement. Most abatements have a "Phase Out," and it certainly sounds like you are in that Phase Out.

Posted on: 2/2 16:35
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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bodhipooh wrote:
Like I said earlier, it is incredibly rich to see so many self-avowed liberals become overnight fiscal conservatives demanding more out of less, and crying unfair taxation.


Reminds of a cocktail party I went to waaay back in the 90s, when an acquaintance of mine introduced me to a Republican couple who were prominent at the time. Everything was free market this and free market that with these people, until someone pointed out that they were living in a pretty sweet rent-controlled three-bedroom apartment on the Upper West Side. Then it was all "Hands off our rent-controlled apartment! We're entitled to this apartment!"


I see what you did there. So you're comparing one anecdotal couple to an entire section of a large, heavily liberal democrat city? Not really seeing it.


Wow, talk about an overreach in logic. I'm doing no such thing. Just saying his observation reminded me of this one incident. That and maybe the point that a person's principles - no matter what side of the political spectrum they fall on - aren't really tested until it actually costs them something.

Posted on: 2/2 16:33
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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JadedJC wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
Like I said earlier, it is incredibly rich to see so many self-avowed liberals become overnight fiscal conservatives demanding more out of less, and crying unfair taxation.


Reminds of a cocktail party I went to waaay back in the 90s, when an acquaintance of mine introduced me to a Republican couple who were prominent at the time. Everything was free market this and free market that with these people, until someone pointed out that they were living in a pretty sweet rent-controlled three-bedroom apartment on the Upper West Side. Then it was all "Hands off our rent-controlled apartment! We're entitled to this apartment!"


I see what you did there. So you're comparing one anecdotal couple to an entire section of a large, heavily liberal democrat city? Not really seeing it.

Posted on: 2/2 16:21
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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bodhipooh wrote:
Like I said earlier, it is incredibly rich to see so many self-avowed liberals become overnight fiscal conservatives demanding more out of less, and crying unfair taxation.


Reminds of a cocktail party I went to waaay back in the 90s, when an acquaintance of mine introduced me to a Republican couple who were prominent at the time. Everything was free market this and free market that with these people, until you someone pointed out that they were living in a pretty sweet rent-controlled three-bedroom apartment on the Upper West Side. Then it was all "Hands off our rent-controlled apartment! We're entitled to this apartment!"


Like I said, when it comes to taxes and money, people can become irrational and their proclamations are often hollow and counter to the principles they claim to hold.

But, there is a certain irony to be an ardent liberal, always clamoring for more free things for everyone, and then overnight be arguing against progressive tax policies, and other such schemes that are absolutely necessary to pay and offer all these additional services.

Currently, there is an all time high clamor for free/national healthcare, universal paid family leave, free preK schooling, increased government programs, etc. I dont think many people argue against how awesome it would be to have all of that, and so much more. But, when it comes to paying for all of that, the conversation quickly turns to "why should I have to pay for that?" At some point, you have to be OK with being asked to help pay for expanded services if you are clamoring for that.

Posted on: 2/2 15:56
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Sounds about right for a $2.5 mil property.

Ask people from Summit or Westchester.


Or Hoboken

Posted on: 2/2 15:53
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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bodhipooh wrote:
Like I said earlier, it is incredibly rich to see so many self-avowed liberals become overnight fiscal conservatives demanding more out of less, and crying unfair taxation.


Reminds of a cocktail party I went to waaay back in the 90s, when an acquaintance of mine introduced me to a Republican couple who were prominent at the time. Everything was free market this and free market that with these people, until someone pointed out that they were living in a pretty sweet rent-controlled three-bedroom apartment on the Upper West Side. Then it was all "Hands off our rent-controlled apartment! We're entitled to this apartment!"

Posted on: 2/2 15:47
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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jcguy05 wrote:
i agree with everyone about paying their fair share of the property tax and those under assessed already lucked out for the past years.

However there needs to be a transition period as oppose to this shock of a $20K+ increase as the OP had.

Imagine people who have been living in those brownstones for 10-20 years or newcomers, who doesnt read the forum or understand that a reval means you get a 20K tax increase (and no one knows the numbers until they get the letter this past 2 weeks).

Now all of sudden they need to pay 20k extra a year.

What should have happened is they do the reval, letting the owners know the new tax will be 20k higher, and the tax gets increased 25% each year until it hit the 20k threshold.

This at least give those people time to move out or get their money prepared to pay the increase.

In short, agree with the reval/assessments, but doesnt agree with this piss poor execution they have done.


The flip side to this story is that in order for DTJC to get a phase in, that means that poorer residents would be required to continue subsidizing DT. How can you, with a straight face, ask people who have been over paying for years to continue to do so for a few more years so those who got a break for many, many years dont have to be shocked to reality? Are you willing to go tell a poor resident "hey, I know you are supposed to get a break in taxes because you have been overpaying for a while, but can you please wait four years until I figure out my situation?"

Posted on: 2/2 15:41
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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i agree with everyone about paying their fair share of the property tax and those under assessed already lucked out for the past years.

However there needs to be a transition period as oppose to this shock of a $20K+ increase as the OP had.

Imagine people who have been living in those brownstones for 10-20 years or newcomers, who doesnt read the forum or understand that a reval means you get a 20K tax increase (and no one knows the numbers until they get the letter this past 2 weeks).

Now all of sudden they need to pay 20k extra a year.

What should have happened is they do the reval, letting the owners know the new tax will be 20k higher, and the tax gets increased 25% each year until it hit the 20k threshold.

This at least give those people time to move out or get their money prepared to pay the increase.

In short, agree with the reval/assessments, but doesnt agree with this piss poor execution they have done.

Posted on: 2/2 15:29
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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brewster wrote:
Lets say the shocked DT homeowner has been here 5 years. According to Zillow, prices have risen 83% in that time! Even assuming a 10% retraction that still a lot of equity gain to pay 1.6% of your value every year with a HELOC, or reverse mortgage if you're old enough (this defusing all the breastbeating about de-homing seniors).

Does anyone believe that DT property will not continue to appreciate at 1.6% minimum on average in the future? The expected howls of "I don't care about appreciation, I just want to keep living in my house!!!" will be hollow. The only people truly fucked is anyone who purchased in the last couple of years that were not told by their realtor or attorney about the coming reval, and are left holding the bag for taxes but not having ridden the values up.


Agreed 100%, but when it comes to money and taxes, people can be completely irrational. The threads on Nextdoor.com are mind blowing by the purposeful obtuseness of people.

Like I said earlier, it is incredibly rich to see so many self-avowed liberals become overnight fiscal conservatives demanding more out of less, and crying unfair taxation.


Spot on observation from a political demographic standpoint. Spot on. Makes me laugh every single time.

Posted on: 2/2 15:06
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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There is some interesting data in the list of assessments:

The larger Crystal Point units (1,590 sf) are assessed at $1,368 per sf. Those units are all assessed the same - regardless of floor.

The larger 77 Hudson units (but not the even larger PH units) are assessed above $1,100 per sf. Those are in the 1,550 sf range. The large PHs - 2,000+ sf are assessed north of $1,500 per sf at $3,100,000+ (!!)

A few of the large 77 Hudson units were assessed at several hundred thousand dollars below prices they had recently sold for (sales that had taken place in 2016 or 2017). One was assessed $478,000 less than what it sold for in early 2016.

In general, the listed assessment seems to be higher (per sf) the larger your unit is - which is counter to what typically happens in the market.

Owners at Crystal Point and 77 Hudson are both on long-term abatements and only pay a few thousand dollars a year for land taxes, so none of this really matters for them any time soon - but if you were looking to make a case against the assessment process, I'd wonder how these conclusions were reached.

Posted on: 2/2 13:57
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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SOS wrote:
PDF of current letters/assessments that have gone out -

http://www.asinj.com/revaluation.asp?p=current&id=359

Click on "Assessment Lists" lower left of page.


My property is not listed. In fact only about 6000 are listed in the PDF (39 per page times 153 pages = 5967). Looks like it is a slowish rollout to get everyone their new assessment.


At the top of the PDF - "released as of 1/24/2018"
Since 1/24 more letters have gone out. For example, the property of the person that started this thread is not included in the spreadsheet, and has received the letter.



Posted on: 2/2 13:24
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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brewster wrote:
Lets say the shocked DT homeowner has been here 5 years. According to Zillow, prices have risen 83% in that time! Even assuming a 10% retraction that still a lot of equity gain to pay 1.6% of your value every year with a HELOC, or reverse mortgage if you're old enough (this defusing all the breastbeating about de-homing seniors).

Does anyone believe that DT property will not continue to appreciate at 1.6% minimum on average in the future? The expected howls of "I don't care about appreciation, I just want to keep living in my house!!!" will be hollow. The only people truly fucked is anyone who purchased in the last couple of years that were not told by their realtor or attorney about the coming reval, and are left holding the bag for taxes but not having ridden the values up.


Agreed 100%, but when it comes to money and taxes, people can be completely irrational. The threads on Nextdoor.com are mind blowing by the purposeful obtuseness of people.

Like I said earlier, it is incredibly rich to see so many self-avowed liberals become overnight fiscal conservatives demanding more out of less, and crying unfair taxation.

Posted on: 2/2 13:03
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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SOS wrote:
PDF of current letters/assessments that have gone out -

http://www.asinj.com/revaluation.asp?p=current&id=359

Click on "Assessment Lists" lower left of page.


My property is not listed. In fact only about 6000 are listed in the PDF (39 per page times 153 pages = 5967). Looks like it is a slowish rollout to get everyone their new assessment.

Posted on: 2/2 13:00
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Lets say the shocked DT homeowner has been here 5 years. According to Zillow, prices have risen 83% in that time! Even assuming a 10% retraction that still a lot of equity gain to pay 1.6% of your value every year with a HELOC, or reverse mortgage if you're old enough (this defusing all the breastbeating about de-homing seniors).

Does anyone believe that DT property will not continue to appreciate at 1.6% minimum on average in the future? The expected howls of "I don't care about appreciation, I just want to keep living in my house!!!" will be hollow. The only people truly fucked is anyone who purchased in the last couple of years that were not told by their realtor or attorney about the coming reval, and are left holding the bag for taxes but not having ridden the values up.

Posted on: 2/2 12:45
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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PDF of current letters/assessments that have gone out -

http://www.asinj.com/revaluation.asp?p=current&id=359

Click on "Assessment Lists" lower left of page.

Posted on: 2/2 12:27
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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This is playing out exactly as predicted: people sitting on properties that have appreciated tremendously (but who continued to pay a pittance in taxes) are losing their shit and complaining about unfair taxation now that they are expected to pay their fair share.

Once again, people prove that they are in favor of taxing the richer (not the rich) and for tax equality and fairness, until it is their turn to chip in. Never have I seen so many pro tax-fairness liberals become such outspoken proponents of lower taxes, and smaller government. Heck, some are now outright in favor of tax inequality by wanting to retain the status quo in which poorer residents subsidize richer ones.

Posted on: 2/2 12:04
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Does anyone know how the new tax rates will affect those in rent control apartments? I couldn't find anything online about tax increases being passed onto the tenant.

Posted on: 2/2 11:45
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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What's insane is that taxes were not increased for decades. The new rates are not insane, it's just the abrupt shock of them that is.

Posted on: 2/2 11:18
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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SOS wrote:
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landshark wrote:
We live in a rowhouse that is in a group of 10 built at the same time and essentially the same size. Some have been updated a more than others but a pretty good sample to compare assessments.

I saw the assessments for 6 of the 10 yesterday. There is an 8k difference in tax from the lowest to highest one. The one in the worst condition got one of the highest assessments.

The assessors are going to have a lot of explaining to do once all the numbers are published.



Did the one is the worst condition allow the appraisers into the home? If not, that might explain the disparity.


Yes all 6 let the inspectors in. The worst one was rated below the others at the time.


Also, to have a successful property tax appeal, the assessment has to be off by 15% or more -

http://www.nj.com/insidejersey/index. ... bad_enough_the_house.html




Posted on: 2/2 11:02
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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T-Bird wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
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MDM wrote:
I wonder if JC will see a massive amount of tax appeals, like the city did in the early '90s?


Any tax appeal will likely be dismissed without much fuss: what would be the argument to bring an appeal?


That's pretty simple - that the house is worth less than its appraised value. That's what all appeals are based on. Once the full effect of the new income tax law and the reval settle in on the market, it wouldn't be surprising at all for homes at the higher end of the market to be worth 10% to 15% less. I've already factored in 10% into my thinking. While it's true no one knew the tax laws would change so dramatically when the reval started, that's the world we're in now. People like paulushooker may have to pay full fare this year, but I'm betting it won't be a difficult case to make a year from now that assessed values are too high.

I was surprised the city didn't go with a somewhat higher rate and softer assessments, which is common. That approach builds in some cushion for near term market dips.


Agreed that, once properties take a hit in value, a homeowner could then file an appeal. My post was not properly elucidated: there would be no grounds to bring an appeal NOW. That could change in a couple of years. But, according to so many of you, properties will not take a hit because other buyers pushed out of NYC will want to swoop in and snap up available inventory.

Personally, I do think there will be a period of adjustment and some properties will “lose” value, but that will likely take some time to manifest itself in clear terms. After all, a lot of the run up in DTJC valuations was partly driven by the artificially low taxes.



I don't think they're going to lose value. They're overvalued based on an artificially low tax payment. They're going to finally be valued correctly based on an appropriate tax rate.

Posted on: 2/2 10:43
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Have not rec'd anything in the mail.
Is there a link or something to see how much the increase is?

Posted on: 2/2 10:41
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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T-Bird wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

MDM wrote:
I wonder if JC will see a massive amount of tax appeals, like the city did in the early '90s?


Any tax appeal will likely be dismissed without much fuss: what would be the argument to bring an appeal?


That's pretty simple - that the house is worth less than its appraised value. That's what all appeals are based on. Once the full effect of the new income tax law and the reval settle in on the market, it wouldn't be surprising at all for homes at the higher end of the market to be worth 10% to 15% less. I've already factored in 10% into my thinking. While it's true no one knew the tax laws would change so dramatically when the reval started, that's the world we're in now. People like paulushooker may have to pay full fare this year, but I'm betting it won't be a difficult case to make a year from now that assessed values are too high.

I was surprised the city didn't go with a somewhat higher rate and softer assessments, which is common. That approach builds in some cushion for near term market dips.


Agreed that, once properties take a hit in value, a homeowner could then file an appeal. My post was not properly elucidated: there would be no grounds to bring an appeal NOW. That could change in a couple of years. But, according to so many of you, properties will not take a hit because other buyers pushed out of NYC will want to swoop in and snap up available inventory.

Personally, I do think there will be a period of adjustment and some properties will “lose” value, but that will likely take some time to manifest itself in clear terms. After all, a lot of the run up in DTJC valuations was partly driven by the artificially low taxes.

Posted on: 2/2 10:38
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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landshark wrote:
We live in a rowhouse that is in a group of 10 built at the same time and essentially the same size. Some have been updated a more than others but a pretty good sample to compare assessments.

I saw the assessments for 6 of the 10 yesterday. There is an 8k difference in tax from the lowest to highest one. The one in the worst condition got one of the highest assessments.

The assessors are going to have a lot of explaining to do once all the numbers are published.



Did the one is the worst condition allow the appraisers into the home? If not, that might explain the disparity.


Yes all 6 let the inspectors in. The worst one was rated below the others at the time.

Posted on: 2/2 10:35
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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landshark wrote:
We live in a rowhouse that is in a group of 10 built at the same time and essentially the same size. Some have been updated a more than others but a pretty good sample to compare assessments.

I saw the assessments for 6 of the 10 yesterday. There is an 8k difference in tax from the lowest to highest one. The one in the worst condition got one of the highest assessments.

The assessors are going to have a lot of explaining to do once all the numbers are published.



Did the one is the worst condition allow the appraisers into the home? If not, that might explain the disparity.

Posted on: 2/2 10:28
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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We live in a rowhouse that is in a group of 10 built at the same time and essentially the same size. Some have been updated a more than others but a pretty good sample to compare assessments.

I saw the assessments for 6 of the 10 yesterday. There is an 8k difference in tax from the lowest to highest one. The one in the worst condition got one of the highest assessments.

The assessors are going to have a lot of explaining to do once all the numbers are published.


Posted on: 2/2 10:22
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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MDM wrote:
I wonder if JC will see a massive amount of tax appeals, like the city did in the early '90s?


Any tax appeal will likely be dismissed without much fuss: what would be the argument to bring an appeal?


That's pretty simple - that the house is worth less than its appraised value. That's what all appeals are based on. Once the full effect of the new income tax law and the reval settle in on the market, it wouldn't be surprising at all for homes at the higher end of the market to be worth 10% to 15% less. I've already factored in 10% into my thinking. While it's true no one knew the tax laws would change so dramatically when the reval started, that's the world we're in now. People like paulushooker may have to pay full fare this year, but I'm betting it won't be a difficult case to make a year from now that assessed values are too high.

I was surprised the city didn't go with a somewhat higher rate and softer assessments, which is common. That approach builds in some cushion for near term market dips.

Posted on: 2/2 9:33
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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bustjc wrote:
Its crazy to think that 20-30 years of amazing growth in downtown that the taxes were subsidized by the poorest neighborhoods of Jersey City, many of them paying higher taxes on properties worth a fraction of downtown properties for a very long time.





Bit of insight into how poorly this city is mismanaged, ehh?

From the schools, streets to the police force.






Posted on: 2/1 23:07
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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135jc wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
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MDM wrote:
I wonder if JC will see a massive amount of tax appeals, like the city did in the early '90s?


Any tax appeal will likely be dismissed without much fuss: what would be the argument to bring an appeal? That the person doesn't want to pay so much? Once the revaluation is completed and put in place, that is the new baseline. It is utterly impossible to try and argue against your new tax levy when it is based on a professional valuation of property that was carried out citywide.


There will be tons of appeals if property values fall 10%


Yet another reason why we should have a rolling valuation system.

If there is a city-wide drop in prices, then everybody is overpaying (going by the established rate) but if all valuations are lowered (say, because of a market crash) then the city would just be forced to raise the tax rate, so in the end nothing changes. At the end of the day, there is a municipal budget, and if someone's tax levy goes down, someone else's has to go up to make up the shortfall.

Posted on: 2/1 22:16
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Its crazy to think that 20-30 years of amazing growth in downtown that the taxes were subsidized by the poorest neighborhoods of Jersey City, many of them paying higher taxes on properties worth a fraction of downtown properties for a very long time.

Even one year doesn't even come close to making up the gap of the free ride many (not all) downtown folks have enjoyed. But this is a double edged sword and hopefully will encourage Jersey City to follow the law and not delay tax revals for the outrageous amount of time it has.

I mostly worry for the life long residents. Some of them my friends that in no way would possibly be able to pay these increases and have to hope the programs available help them.

Posted on: 2/1 22:13
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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I have a tax abatement on my downtown condo. Expires sometime in 2027. I read the actual abatement agreement and the appraisal should not effect how much property taxes I owe. I'll still be paying the same $10,400 or so until 2028.

Posted on: 2/1 22:05
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