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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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Monroe wrote:
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brewster wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
my taxes are sky high, while JC taxes are quite low.


Please tell us the numbers, what is the actual rate, as in tax/actual $ value in your town of residence? I do hope you are not using the ridiculously low taxes of some Downtown properties as your point of reference. Other wards are paying 3x as much per $.


My town (Millburn/Short Hills) gets 11% of its school costs (which is about 25% less per student than JC, btw) from NJ. JC gets 75% of the cost of its schools from the state. Hence our local real estate taxes are sky high because of it, since school costs are considerably more than half of township expenses. And this is with a giant ratable in the form of the Mall at Short Hills. Despite that, taxes average about $20,000/year, the highest in NJ and among the highest in the USA.

So every NJ taxpayer contributes to keeping JC taxes artificially low, especially those who are forced to pay more to their own towns while keeping your taxes low.



You failed to mention that Short Hills is also the richest town in the whole US, with average property values of over $1m. A property valued at $1m in JC would probably pay around the same $20k/year in taxes.

http://www.northjersey.com/community- ... inly-pay-for-it-1.1021689


Posted on: 2014/7/15 0:47
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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Monroe - anyone ponying up 250-500K for Liberty's Inititation Fee I can guarantee you is NOT paying their fair share of taxes. The .01% have mastered the art of lowering their tax rates thru 15% capital gains taxes, breaks on carried interest, endless trust/estate tricks, mortgage interest deductions etc.

Posted on: 2014/7/15 0:44
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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brewster wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
my taxes are sky high, while JC taxes are quite low.


Please tell us the numbers, what is the actual rate, as in tax/actual $ value in your town of residence? I do hope you are not using the ridiculously low taxes of some Downtown properties as your point of reference. Other wards are paying 3x as much per $.


My town (Millburn/Short Hills) gets 11% of its school costs (which is about 25% less per student than JC, btw) from NJ. JC gets 75% of the cost of its schools from the state. Hence our local real estate taxes are sky high because of it, since school costs are considerably more than half of township expenses. And this is with a giant ratable in the form of the Mall at Short Hills. Despite that, taxes average about $20,000/year, the highest in NJ and among the highest in the USA.

So every NJ taxpayer contributes to keeping JC taxes artificially low, especially those who are forced to pay more to their own towns while keeping your taxes low.


Posted on: 2014/7/15 0:28
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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Land is not abated, only the structure is abated. Why would it be a non-profit?

Posted on: 2014/7/15 0:10
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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Monroe wrote:
my taxes are sky high, while JC taxes are quite low.


Please tell us the numbers, what is the actual rate, as in tax/actual $ value in your town of residence? I do hope you are not using the ridiculously low taxes of some Downtown properties as your point of reference. Other wards are paying 3x as much per $.

Posted on: 2014/7/14 23:53
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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I think I read that the joining fee was $250k and yearly dues are $25k, and with 175 or so members the golf club is barely breaking even. But I wonder if there was a revenue part to the original abatement deal. If the $200k or so number is right, that's under 5% of revenue (~$4.4million).

Interesting that the residential tower was in the original plan. Also interesting is that Fireman doesn't come across as a "vulture" venture capitalist in the article.

Quote:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/S ... 3980604579030813844524056

The owner said he is pleased. "It was never about making money, not that I wanted to lose money," he said. The club itself, after stalling during the recession, now has 175 members, with a current full initiation fee of $250,000, and could top out at 250 members or so next year, Fireman said. The average member age is a surprisingly young 42. He said he expects a residential tower near the clubhouse, a delayed part of the original plan, to break ground within a year. "If that plays out like we hope it will and I break even on the whole thing, I'd be thrilled."

Posted on: 2014/7/14 23:47
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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Mao wrote:
Dear Monroe:

What does the fact that JC got a tax abatement from "other Jersey taxpayers" have to do with this issue. I raised an issue about property tax equity. The half billion is taken, I think, from income taxes. True this is a bit of a redistribution. On the other hand, there are a lot of people employed on the Jersey City waterfront so JC provides a business environment where these taxed wages occur. Personally, I am for school choice (vouchers!) so that the biggest drain on the budget (schools) is more efficient.

You make a point about the fact that the golf course does not generate the need for services- but still the fact is that the land could alternatively have been developed as very nice housing. Also, new wealthy construction is relatively light on the services you describe- fire, police, schools.

Why would you not want the golf course taxed equitably. I suppose it could make it uneconomical. But lots of things are uneconomical in different places.


The school funding issue means that the state cannot fairly fund all schools-while JC gets most of its school costs covered my school gets almost nothing. Hence my taxes are sky high, while JC taxes are quite low.

Anyway, any idea that undeveloped land be taxed as if it consists of homes and residents is quite silly and simple. Do we tax people based on what they 'may' earn? Do we tax land on what it 'may' be someday, or could have been? Of course not.

As I recall, Liberty National was a toxic dump that had to be cleaned before it was used. A lot of the $250 million dollar cost of the club went to soil remediation, no?

And given that the join fee is about $500K you can be sure the members are paying their fair share in taxes!

Posted on: 2014/7/14 22:02
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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Dear Monroe:

What does the fact that JC got a tax abatement from "other Jersey taxpayers" have to do with this issue. I raised an issue about property tax equity. The half billion is taken, I think, from income taxes. True this is a bit of a redistribution. On the other hand, there are a lot of people employed on the Jersey City waterfront so JC provides a business environment where these taxed wages occur. Personally, I am for school choice (vouchers!) so that the biggest drain on the budget (schools) is more efficient.

You make a point about the fact that the golf course does not generate the need for services- but still the fact is that the land could alternatively have been developed as very nice housing. Also, new wealthy construction is relatively light on the services you describe- fire, police, schools.

Why would you not want the golf course taxed equitably. I suppose it could make it uneconomical. But lots of things are uneconomical in different places.

Posted on: 2014/7/14 21:52
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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If Liberty National got an abatement fine. That gives a developer predictability to allow the investment. However, the abatement sunsets and then an equitable rate needs to kick in. Liberty National opening in 2006 so if it got a ten year abatement, which would have been reasonable at the time, it should be about to start contributing to the tax base.



Posted on: 2014/7/14 21:45
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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FGJCNJ1970 wrote:
I did a quick google search. Per this article, they got a 5 year tax abatement.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/voices/index ... _on_green_and_in_ele.html

There are also a couple of articles of what they were planning to build before the housing market collapsed.

http://www.hudsonreporter.com/view/fu ... July-4-on-remediated-land

All I can say is, if they plan on building a casino, there better NOT be any tax abatements doled out. Also, there better be some sort of revenue sharing program that goes directly for property tax relief for the rest of us and other community reinvestment.


First off, JC gets a tax relief check of a half a BILLION dollars a year from other NJ taxpayers to run JC schools. Consider yourself lucky.

Second, for the 160 acres they use, they don't have people living on that land-sending kids to schools, needing fire protection for houses on that land, policing the non-people who live there, etc.

Posted on: 2014/7/14 21:44
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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FGJCNJ1970 wrote:
All I can say is, if they plan on building a casino, there better NOT be any tax abatements doled out. Also, there better be some sort of revenue sharing program that goes directly for property tax relief for the rest of us and other community reinvestment.


and if there is an abatement and no tax relief, what will you do?

https://www.google.com/search?q=libert ... YQ_AUoAQ&biw=1300&bih=574

Posted on: 2014/7/14 21:13
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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If's its $212k that's less than a single block, two acres pays downtown.

I had googled "golf courses" "farm assessment" and NJ. I got cases from other states and articles about controversies around the country- but nothing here.

I googled the MRGC (my ancestral course in Brielle, NJ) and the results seemed to indicate that it was tax expempt as a charity. That shocks me because it is the least charitable institution I have ever encountered, lol and because the taxes in Brielle are outrageous. But it may be all wrong as you can't believe everything you read, etc. etc.




Posted on: 2014/7/14 21:00
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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I did a quick google search. Per this article, they got a 5 year tax abatement.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/voices/index ... _on_green_and_in_ele.html

There are also a couple of articles of what they were planning to build before the housing market collapsed.

http://www.hudsonreporter.com/view/fu ... July-4-on-remediated-land

All I can say is, if they plan on building a casino, there better NOT be any tax abatements doled out. Also, there better be some sort of revenue sharing program that goes directly for property tax relief for the rest of us and other community reinvestment.

Posted on: 2014/7/14 20:56
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Re: What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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If you go on the tax assessment search page and look up "WA GOLF COMPANY, L.L.C." under owner, it gives a list of lots that seem to be associated with the golf course. I'm not sure that it's a complete list (e.g., if other entities own chunks of the course), but that group pays a little over $212K.

There are other LLCs and developers who own on Caven Point. Not sure if any of those are related to the golf course.

Posted on: 2014/7/14 20:45
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What Is the Total Property Tax Contribution of Liberty National?
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Liberty National Golf Course is about 160 acres. An acre contains on average 9 city lots , I thnk. So that's 1,440 city lots. If one is very modest and calculates basement tax bill for each lot at say $7k per lot, that would be $10,080,000. That's a big number but small compared to the municipal budget of 560 million. (I know that the property tax is split between, Board of Ed, city, and county - but I was unable to find a figure for the total generated annually by property taxes in JC).

I am curious. What does Liberty National actually pay? I was in the tax assessor office once and the course seemed to be broken up into hundreds of parcels so I could not readily find a figure. Also, remember while there was cleanup involved here, it is waterfront property adjacent to a state park and a National Park.

It irks be sometimes. I have heard that in the suburbs some courses get farm assessment on the basis that the courses preserve green space. However, now that we know that golf courses actually pollute the water and the soil because of the intense fertilizing, this seems like bad public policy- on top of the fact that golf courses are exclusionary.

Now don't get me wrong- I believe in private enterprise and private association. I only resent if it is unfairly subsidized by the rest of us. If the golf course is under taxed, that means that the rest of us are paying extra.

I have wondered these questions over the year- particularly as the course is hostile to locals (I have tried in vain for instance to get them to donate a foursome for local charter schools). Now with Paul Firestone allying himself with Fulop as it is proposed to place casinos just outside the course, my interest is piqued.

Do I have my figures above more or less correct? Does anyone know what the golf course pays?

Here's some background on the course which, I have to admit, is pretty cool and nice to look at.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenber ... -5-5-million-in-series-a/

Posted on: 2014/7/14 20:20
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