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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
#84
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richieveal wrote:
No, there are bad people in this world and they will do bad things. I will will run away if given the chance but if no other option is left I would use force.

When I lived in PA I had a CCW permit, did I have it on me at all times? No but there were times I did. The same would be here.


Two years ago, right after PA passed its own 'Stand Your Ground' statute (though the law didn't apply to this case), a man was attacked on a bike trail. The attackers were teens who were mugging people on the trail (I think he was their third victim). Two were shot and one was killed. The one killed had been under house arrest, but simply took off his monitoring bracelet allowing him to leave and continue beating and robbing people.

http://www2.readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=361731

Johnson was on probation for previous offenses. Juvenile probation officers had gone to his Oakbrook residence earlier Wednesday and found the three teens playing video games.

They told the two 15-year-olds to leave. The officers put an electronic monitoring device on Johnson's ankle, ordered him to stay home and report to their office with his parents at 4 p.m.

Instead, the three met up and decided to jump and rob random victims.

They first robbed an elderly man in West Reading shortly after 10 a.m., taking money from his pockets, then tried to rob another man in West Reading, kneeing him in the stomach and pushing him to the ground. Neither man was hurt.

The bike rider was on the trail between Reading and West Reading.

As he rode past the teens, the 15-year-old whose name was not released punched the man in the face, knocking him from his bike. Johnson ran and kicked the man, who was sitting against a chain-link fence along the trail.

As one of the teens ran toward the man, he shot Johnson and the 15-year-old.

Posted on: 2014/3/6 13:21
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Why not move to a pro gun State and avoid yourself the stress?


Starting in the 1920's (response to mob violence..) and again in the 1960's the right to carry was pretty much removed from most of the country. The people didn't move to states with CCW.. the CCW came to them after years of pushing it through various state legislatures. Wiki has a good graphic of how CCW has evolved over time.


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Posted on: 2014/3/6 13:12
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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No, there are bad people in this world and they will do bad things. I will will run away if given the chance but if no other option is left I would use force.

When I lived in PA I had a CCW permit, did I have it on me at all times? No but there were times I did. The same would be here.

Posted on: 2014/3/6 13:05
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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richieveal wrote:
I'll take my chances, I'd rather I fight for my life then wait for the cops to show up. I look forward to the day the courts rule for ccw.

Oh no, you have to get killed or maimed first before we realize you have the right idea. Preparing, protecting, and insuring yourself to possible dangers lurking about...such silliness.

Posted on: 2014/3/6 12:46
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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user1111 wrote:
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Seagull wrote:
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Seagull wrote:
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mrasg1 wrote:
If you want to hunt and do it humanely and
it's for food not trophy? Fine. If you want
to defend yourself and family in your home ? Fine.
But no way in hell should anyone but law enforcement
on duty be allowed to carry a weapon as part of
their job. What's next? The asinine stand your ground law ?


What you don't seem to understand is the fact that hardened criminals will carry guns illegally and they don't care about any of NJ's restrictive laws. They don't care about them AT ALL. It's not even a thought for them. They're going to carry guns, period. I think it's about time we allow the law-abiding citizens the same ability, and let them do it legally.

The only cowards are those that feel a need to carry a gun because they might run into some criminal that might also be carrying a gun, illegally.

Who is to ultimately say that the person you presume to be a criminal really isn?t? Maybe that person is also carrying a gun legally.


I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, so you can act like a child and call me a coward, but in the end, my constitutional right is being violated, and as with Illinois and California, NJ's carry laws will be found unconstitutional.


Concealed handguns are not an effective form of self-defense. A Nov. 2009 peer-reviewed study published in the American Journal of Public Health by Charles Branas, PhD, et al. found that someone carrying a gun for self-defense was 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault than an assault victim without a gun. Attackers often surprise victims, making it difficult to use a concealed handgun.

"Shall-issue" laws lead to increases in the rates of rape, robbery, and violent crime. A 1995 peer-reviewed study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology by David McDowall, PhD, et al. of five urban cities found that gun homicide rates increased an average of 4.5% following the enactment of "shall-issue" laws. A May 2009 peer-reviewed study by Yale professors Ian Ayres, PhD, and John Donohue, PhD, that appeared in the Econ Journal Watch found that "shall-issue" laws increased aggravated assault between 1977 and 2006. Several researchers have found substantial flaws in the methodology of a landmark 1998 study by John Lott, PhD, and David Mustard, PhD, which claimed that more guns means less crime.

The Second Amendment of the US Constitution allows citizens to bear arms for a well-regulated militia, not for concealed personal carry. The Second Amendment statement "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed" does not mention concealed handguns.

The Supreme Court's 5-4 majority decision in District of Columbia v. Heller reasoned that Second Amendment rights have limits and that bans on concealed carry have been legal. Justice Antonin Scalia wrote in the majority opinion: "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited? [C]ommentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose? For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues."

Carrying a concealed handgun increases the chances of a confrontation escalating and turning lethal. The chances of a handgun being used inappropriately increase when normally responsible adults are intoxicated, tired, afraid, or untrained in conflict resolution.

Responsible adults can still be a threat to public safety if they are armed. Between 1996 and 2000, the Violence Policy Center found that concealed handgun permit holders in Texas were arrested for weapon-related offenses at a rate 81% higher than the general Texas population. Between May 2007 and Mar. 24, 2010, at least nine law enforcement officers and 142 private citizens were killed nationally by concealed handgun permit holders (approximately 0.003% of all murders in that time period).
Did you actually research the information or just copy and paste? The study about being 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault was a case study only done in Philidelphia that counted people shot by stray bullets and even includes people sleeping in their home who were accidently shot and if this person had a gun in his home while being shot in his sleep he is counted as being shot trying to defend himself. The armed group counts criminals in drug fueds and people illegally possessing firearms. I think no one needs a study to prove a criminal that owns a gun is more like to get killed then an average citizen is. I think we all can agree on that. The study also goes as far as to say even if I had a gun and was standing outside my car but the gun was in the glove box that is counted as me being shot while using a gun for protection even if I never went for it or the criminal didn't know the gun existed.

The other statistics are flawed as well about in Texas the arrest rate of concealed carry permit holders have an arrest rate 81% higher then the general Texas population they didnt do the math simply by using the number of people found guilty of a crime to come up with the stats. Instead they counted every offense as a separate person and never took into account 41% of the cases acquitted. When the statistics were done the right way it showed they were actually 13 times less likely to be convicted of a crime then the general Texas population.

Im sure their are more errors in some the other studies you posted as well.

Posted on: 2014/3/6 8:45
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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I'll take my chances, I'd rather I fight for my life then wait for the cops to show up. I look forward to the day the courts rule for ccw.

Posted on: 2014/3/6 3:25
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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user1111 wrote:
Quote:

Seagull wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

Seagull wrote:
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mrasg1 wrote:
If you want to hunt and do it humanely and
it's for food not trophy? Fine. If you want
to defend yourself and family in your home ? Fine.
But no way in hell should anyone but law enforcement
on duty be allowed to carry a weapon as part of
their job. What's next? The asinine stand your ground law ?


What you don't seem to understand is the fact that hardened criminals will carry guns illegally and they don't care about any of NJ's restrictive laws. They don't care about them AT ALL. It's not even a thought for them. They're going to carry guns, period. I think it's about time we allow the law-abiding citizens the same ability, and let them do it legally.

The only cowards are those that feel a need to carry a gun because they might run into some criminal that might also be carrying a gun, illegally.

Who is to ultimately say that the person you presume to be a criminal really isn?t? Maybe that person is also carrying a gun legally.


I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, so you can act like a child and call me a coward, but in the end, my constitutional right is being violated, and as with Illinois and California, NJ's carry laws will be found unconstitutional.


Concealed handguns are not an effective form of self-defense. A Nov. 2009 peer-reviewed study published in the American Journal of Public Health by Charles Branas, PhD, et al. found that someone carrying a gun for self-defense was 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault than an assault victim without a gun. Attackers often surprise victims, making it difficult to use a concealed handgun.

"Shall-issue" laws lead to increases in the rates of rape, robbery, and violent crime. A 1995 peer-reviewed study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology by David McDowall, PhD, et al. of five urban cities found that gun homicide rates increased an average of 4.5% following the enactment of "shall-issue" laws. A May 2009 peer-reviewed study by Yale professors Ian Ayres, PhD, and John Donohue, PhD, that appeared in the Econ Journal Watch found that "shall-issue" laws increased aggravated assault between 1977 and 2006. Several researchers have found substantial flaws in the methodology of a landmark 1998 study by John Lott, PhD, and David Mustard, PhD, which claimed that more guns means less crime.

The Second Amendment of the US Constitution allows citizens to bear arms for a well-regulated militia, not for concealed personal carry. The Second Amendment statement "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed" does not mention concealed handguns.

The Supreme Court's 5-4 majority decision in District of Columbia v. Heller reasoned that Second Amendment rights have limits and that bans on concealed carry have been legal. Justice Antonin Scalia wrote in the majority opinion: "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited? [C]ommentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose? For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues."

Carrying a concealed handgun increases the chances of a confrontation escalating and turning lethal. The chances of a handgun being used inappropriately increase when normally responsible adults are intoxicated, tired, afraid, or untrained in conflict resolution.

Responsible adults can still be a threat to public safety if they are armed. Between 1996 and 2000, the Violence Policy Center found that concealed handgun permit holders in Texas were arrested for weapon-related offenses at a rate 81% higher than the general Texas population. Between May 2007 and Mar. 24, 2010, at least nine law enforcement officers and 142 private citizens were killed nationally by concealed handgun permit holders (approximately 0.003% of all murders in that time period).


I will admit that I am entirely too lazy tonight to dig up all the stats of crime falling after CCW laws passing and such. But I laugh when you note that the killings by concealed permit holders accounted for 0.003% of the murders during the time period. That is a laughably small number and speaks in favor of shall issue.

Also, I'd like stand your ground as well. No, I'm not joking.

Posted on: 2014/3/6 3:17
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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You can consider me a coward but I'll still happily take my gun, thank you very much. The fact that it can kill multiple people in seconds is what makes it so very fantastic. When I see several shady characters approaching me at night I certainly would feel far safer. But I'm sure you're such a strong, valiant man that when you'll be middle aged that you will beat the crap out of several thugs at the same time. Best of luck with that.

As for how someone is alive without this, that is neither here nor there. I have an acquaintance that was an ex-heroin user. The fact that he is alive doesn't in any way negate the fact that heroin addiction often ends with death.

Posted on: 2014/3/6 3:12
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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you can call it anything you want, but for me it's Insurance - just in case. in that one event where there is no other recourse. and I will train at the range and compete in IDPA as much as I can and practice with my firearm. I want to be able to shoot back if I have to. I don't think this is cowardice - it's being prepared.

Posted on: 2014/3/6 2:12
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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devilsadvocate wrote:
You seem to think a coward is anyone who doesn't like to fight criminals with their bare hands. Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather not defend myself with my hands, but with a firearm. Why? Because a) I'm sure there are people who spend 3 hours/day at the gym and I don't, b) there are people younger/larger/stronger than me, and c) because a gun gives me an incredible advantage. I also like that my wife can take down a 6'2+ man in 5 seconds with one if necessary. If that makes me a coward then fine, but I'd like to be an armed coward who can defend myself against aggressors. I'd also like my cowardly wife to have the same advantage.

Insofar as moving because of laws, I'm fine with that approach if it is local in nature. For example, if the stupid gun laws were local to say, Jersey City but not Hoboken or vice versa then I'd live in the place with the laws I favor. But asking me to move to Texas when my job is in the Northeast doesn't really work for me or most other people.

No. I think a coward is someone that is so afraid of the world that in order to leave their house they feel that they must be armed with a weapon that has the ability to kill multiple people in seconds.

Quote:

Seagull wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

Seagull wrote:
Quote:

mrasg1 wrote:
If you want to hunt and do it humanely and
it's for food not trophy? Fine. If you want
to defend yourself and family in your home ? Fine.
But no way in hell should anyone but law enforcement
on duty be allowed to carry a weapon as part of
their job. What's next? The asinine stand your ground law ?


What you don't seem to understand is the fact that hardened criminals will carry guns illegally and they don't care about any of NJ's restrictive laws. They don't care about them AT ALL. It's not even a thought for them. They're going to carry guns, period. I think it's about time we allow the law-abiding citizens the same ability, and let them do it legally.

The only cowards are those that feel a need to carry a gun because they might run into some criminal that might also be carrying a gun, illegally.

Who is to ultimately say that the person you presume to be a criminal really isn?t? Maybe that person is also carrying a gun legally.


I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, so you can act like a child and call me a coward, but in the end, my constitutional right is being violated, and as with Illinois and California, NJ's carry laws will be found unconstitutional.

You?re alive today and yet you?ve not been able to carry a gun on the streets. How is this possible?

Posted on: 2014/3/6 1:26
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Here's one professional, not an academic with a certain set of statistics (remember the old saying: There are Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics) that believe otherwise:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140103/METRO01/301030038

"Detroit? If more citizens were armed, criminals would think twice about attacking them, Detroit Police Chief James Craig said Thursday.

Urban police chiefs are typically in favor of gun control or reluctant to discuss the issue, but Craig on Thursday was candid about how he?s changed his mind.

?When we look at the good community members who have concealed weapons permits, the likelihood they?ll shoot is based on a lack of confidence in this Police Department,? Craig said at a press conference at police headquarters, adding that he thinks more Detroit citizens feel safer, thanks in part to a 7 percent drop in violent crime in 2013.

Craig said he started believing that legal gun owners can deter crime when he became police chief in Portland, Maine, in 2009.

?Coming from California (Craig was on the Los Angeles police force for 28 years), where it takes an act of Congress to get a concealed weapon permit, I got to Maine, where they give out lots of CCWs (carrying concealed weapon permits), and I had a stack of CCW permits I was denying; that was my orientation.

?I changed my orientation real quick. Maine is one of the safest places in America. Clearly, suspects knew that good Americans were armed.?

Craig?s statements Thursday echoed those he made Dec. 19 on ?The Paul W. Smith Show? on WJR (760 AM), when he said: ?There?s a number of CPL (concealed pistol license) holders running around the city of Detroit. I think it acts as a deterrent. Good Americans with CPLs translates into crime reduction. I learned that real quick in the state of Maine.?

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20 ... 1/301030038#ixzz2v8ZS5Zy4

Posted on: 2014/3/6 0:20
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Seagull wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

Seagull wrote:
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mrasg1 wrote:
If you want to hunt and do it humanely and
it's for food not trophy? Fine. If you want
to defend yourself and family in your home ? Fine.
But no way in hell should anyone but law enforcement
on duty be allowed to carry a weapon as part of
their job. What's next? The asinine stand your ground law ?


What you don't seem to understand is the fact that hardened criminals will carry guns illegally and they don't care about any of NJ's restrictive laws. They don't care about them AT ALL. It's not even a thought for them. They're going to carry guns, period. I think it's about time we allow the law-abiding citizens the same ability, and let them do it legally.

The only cowards are those that feel a need to carry a gun because they might run into some criminal that might also be carrying a gun, illegally.

Who is to ultimately say that the person you presume to be a criminal really isn?t? Maybe that person is also carrying a gun legally.


I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, so you can act like a child and call me a coward, but in the end, my constitutional right is being violated, and as with Illinois and California, NJ's carry laws will be found unconstitutional.


Concealed handguns are not an effective form of self-defense. A Nov. 2009 peer-reviewed study published in the American Journal of Public Health by Charles Branas, PhD, et al. found that someone carrying a gun for self-defense was 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault than an assault victim without a gun. Attackers often surprise victims, making it difficult to use a concealed handgun.

"Shall-issue" laws lead to increases in the rates of rape, robbery, and violent crime. A 1995 peer-reviewed study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology by David McDowall, PhD, et al. of five urban cities found that gun homicide rates increased an average of 4.5% following the enactment of "shall-issue" laws. A May 2009 peer-reviewed study by Yale professors Ian Ayres, PhD, and John Donohue, PhD, that appeared in the Econ Journal Watch found that "shall-issue" laws increased aggravated assault between 1977 and 2006. Several researchers have found substantial flaws in the methodology of a landmark 1998 study by John Lott, PhD, and David Mustard, PhD, which claimed that more guns means less crime.

The Second Amendment of the US Constitution allows citizens to bear arms for a well-regulated militia, not for concealed personal carry. The Second Amendment statement "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed" does not mention concealed handguns.

The Supreme Court's 5-4 majority decision in District of Columbia v. Heller reasoned that Second Amendment rights have limits and that bans on concealed carry have been legal. Justice Antonin Scalia wrote in the majority opinion: "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited? [C]ommentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose? For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues."

Carrying a concealed handgun increases the chances of a confrontation escalating and turning lethal. The chances of a handgun being used inappropriately increase when normally responsible adults are intoxicated, tired, afraid, or untrained in conflict resolution.

Responsible adults can still be a threat to public safety if they are armed. Between 1996 and 2000, the Violence Policy Center found that concealed handgun permit holders in Texas were arrested for weapon-related offenses at a rate 81% higher than the general Texas population. Between May 2007 and Mar. 24, 2010, at least nine law enforcement officers and 142 private citizens were killed nationally by concealed handgun permit holders (approximately 0.003% of all murders in that time period).

Posted on: 2014/3/5 23:55
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

Seagull wrote:
Quote:

mrasg1 wrote:
If you want to hunt and do it humanely and
it's for food not trophy? Fine. If you want
to defend yourself and family in your home ? Fine.
But no way in hell should anyone but law enforcement
on duty be allowed to carry a weapon as part of
their job. What's next? The asinine stand your ground law ?


What you don't seem to understand is the fact that hardened criminals will carry guns illegally and they don't care about any of NJ's restrictive laws. They don't care about them AT ALL. It's not even a thought for them. They're going to carry guns, period. I think it's about time we allow the law-abiding citizens the same ability, and let them do it legally.

The only cowards are those that feel a need to carry a gun because they might run into some criminal that might also be carrying a gun, illegally.

Who is to ultimately say that the person you presume to be a criminal really isn?t? Maybe that person is also carrying a gun legally.


I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, so you can act like a child and call me a coward, but in the end, my constitutional right is being violated, and as with Illinois and California, NJ's carry laws will be found unconstitutional.

Posted on: 2014/3/5 23:44
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Pebble wrote:
Quote:

Seagull wrote:
Quote:

mrasg1 wrote:
If you want to hunt and do it humanely and
it's for food not trophy? Fine. If you want
to defend yourself and family in your home ? Fine.
But no way in hell should anyone but law enforcement
on duty be allowed to carry a weapon as part of
their job. What's next? The asinine stand your ground law ?


What you don't seem to understand is the fact that hardened criminals will carry guns illegally and they don't care about any of NJ's restrictive laws. They don't care about them AT ALL. It's not even a thought for them. They're going to carry guns, period. I think it's about time we allow the law-abiding citizens the same ability, and let them do it legally.

The only cowards are those that feel a need to carry a gun because they might run into some criminal that might also be carrying a gun, illegally.

Who is to ultimately say that the person you presume to be a criminal really isn?t? Maybe that person is also carrying a gun legally.

Quote:

Monroe wrote:
In order to get a permit you need to prove no criminal background nor have a background with domestic violence. Before anyone could even think about getting a carry license they have to prove that they're upstanding citizen with an extensive background check.

Now compare that to the thugs and gangbangers walking around carrying heat daily here in JC.

Which group is likely to cause a 'carry' problem for you?

This isn?t accurate. You don?t need to prove anything. A background check is performed. This check merely looks to see if there are public records stating whether you have committed a crime.

If someone beats their spouse and it is never reported, that person can still obtain a firearm.

Personally, I find both groups to be a problem. The person that obtained the gun legally is clearly a coward since they feel the need to be defended by more than just their fists and wits. The criminal is also dangerous since they are unlikely to make the soundest judgments.

Quote:

fat-ass-bike wrote:
Why not move to a pro gun State and avoid yourself the stress? - Is it that hard to comprehend that some States (via their community) might not want 'everyone' with a gun walking the streets?

Personally I'd like a full psychological test be carried out on anyone that wants a gun - Once they pass, let them get what they want ... At least this would go a long way to weed out nutters - The military do it, as well as law enforcement!

In fairness, I would never advocate that people leave based on the disagreement of certain laws. Laws change, ideas change and tolerance changes.

You are correct about the psychological tests. I would also like to see a yearly renewal placed on a gun license. Who is to say that someone buying a gun at 20 doesn?t go and get hooked on drugs at 22? The fact that gun licenses are obtained for life is an issue.


You seem to think a coward is anyone who doesn't like to fight criminals with their bare hands. Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather not defend myself with my hands, but with a firearm. Why? Because a) I'm sure there are people who spend 3 hours/day at the gym and I don't, b) there are people younger/larger/stronger than me, and c) because a gun gives me an incredible advantage. I also like that my wife can take down a 6'2+ man in 5 seconds with one if necessary. If that makes me a coward then fine, but I'd like to be an armed coward who can defend myself against aggressors. I'd also like my cowardly wife to have the same advantage.

Insofar as moving because of laws, I'm fine with that approach if it is local in nature. For example, if the stupid gun laws were local to say, Jersey City but not Hoboken or vice versa then I'd live in the place with the laws I favor. But asking me to move to Texas when my job is in the Northeast doesn't really work for me or most other people.

Posted on: 2014/3/5 23:28
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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mrasg1 wrote:
If you want to hunt and do it humanely and
it's for food not trophy? Fine. If you want
to defend yourself and family in your home ? Fine.
But no way in hell should anyone but law enforcement
on duty be allowed to carry a weapon as part of
their job. What's next? The asinine stand your ground law ?


What you don't seem to understand is the fact that hardened criminals will carry guns illegally and they don't care about any of NJ's restrictive laws. They don't care about them AT ALL. It's not even a thought for them. They're going to carry guns, period. I think it's about time we allow the law-abiding citizens the same ability, and let them do it legally.

The only cowards are those that feel a need to carry a gun because they might run into some criminal that might also be carrying a gun, illegally.

Who is to ultimately say that the person you presume to be a criminal really isn?t? Maybe that person is also carrying a gun legally.

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Monroe wrote:
In order to get a permit you need to prove no criminal background nor have a background with domestic violence. Before anyone could even think about getting a carry license they have to prove that they're upstanding citizen with an extensive background check.

Now compare that to the thugs and gangbangers walking around carrying heat daily here in JC.

Which group is likely to cause a 'carry' problem for you?

This isn?t accurate. You don?t need to prove anything. A background check is performed. This check merely looks to see if there are public records stating whether you have committed a crime.

If someone beats their spouse and it is never reported, that person can still obtain a firearm.

Personally, I find both groups to be a problem. The person that obtained the gun legally is clearly a coward since they feel the need to be defended by more than just their fists and wits. The criminal is also dangerous since they are unlikely to make the soundest judgments.

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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Why not move to a pro gun State and avoid yourself the stress? - Is it that hard to comprehend that some States (via their community) might not want 'everyone' with a gun walking the streets?

Personally I'd like a full psychological test be carried out on anyone that wants a gun - Once they pass, let them get what they want ... At least this would go a long way to weed out nutters - The military do it, as well as law enforcement!

In fairness, I would never advocate that people leave based on the disagreement of certain laws. Laws change, ideas change and tolerance changes.

You are correct about the psychological tests. I would also like to see a yearly renewal placed on a gun license. Who is to say that someone buying a gun at 20 doesn?t go and get hooked on drugs at 22? The fact that gun licenses are obtained for life is an issue.

Posted on: 2014/3/5 22:37
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Why not move to a pro gun State and avoid yourself the stress? - Is it that hard to comprehend that some States (via their community) might not want 'everyone' with a gun walking the streets?

Personally I'd like a full psychological test be carried out on anyone that wants a gun - Once they pass, let them get what they want ... At least this would go a long way to weed out nutters - The military do it, as well as law enforcement!


To your first question: because my best job opportunities all happen to be in states that are anti-gun. So I'm left with living with it and supporting orgs that fight for gun rights. They're quite effective, in case you haven't noticed.

To your proposal: I will one-up your proposal. I'd like full psychological tests for anyone living in the state. I don't want nutters ANYWHERE in the state. For one, crazies don't care about gun laws. Also, a minimum IQ score. And at least 1 grad degree from a sufficiently rigorous program.

Posted on: 2014/3/5 2:18
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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fat-ass-bike wrote:

Personally I'd like a full psychological test be carried out on anyone that wants a gun - Once they pass, let them get what they want ... At least this would go a long way to weed out nutters - The military do it, as well as law enforcement!


I think this is a great idea. Competent people who want to have guns certainly should be allowed to have them for protection. And nutjobs shouldn't. Criminals won't care either way but at least people have the option to do what they want.

Posted on: 2014/3/5 1:32
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Why not move to a pro gun State and avoid yourself the stress? - Is it that hard to comprehend that some States (via their community) might not want 'everyone' with a gun walking the streets?

Personally I'd like a full psychological test be carried out on anyone that wants a gun - Once they pass, let them get what they want ... At least this would go a long way to weed out nutters - The military do it, as well as law enforcement!


Did you feel the same way for the people who wanted gay marriage-go move to a state that offered it?

And yes, I'm fine with the background checks we now have as well, along with making medical professionals report mental illness to the national database of gun owners, and to the national DMV database as well. Don't want crazy drivers out there on the streets as well-a two ton SUV is a killer machine, as we know with drunk drivers and Kennedy men and women driving stoned on psychotropic drugs like Ambien.


Posted on: 2014/3/5 0:28
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Why not move to a pro gun State and avoid yourself the stress? - Is it that hard to comprehend that some States (via their community) might not want 'everyone' with a gun walking the streets?

Personally I'd like a full psychological test be carried out on anyone that wants a gun - Once they pass, let them get what they want ... At least this would go a long way to weed out nutters - The military do it, as well as law enforcement!

Posted on: 2014/3/5 0:05
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Thanks for this. Reminds me to make a donation to the NRA.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 22:57
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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mrasg1 wrote:
Anywhere? Where can you have a weapon? Anywhere?
Anytime? In bars? Schools? Hospitals? Playgrounds?
Etc...etc...etc?


Depends on the State. Some states have exceptions for schools and bars. The latter has been challenged in Kentucky where an amended carry law would allow so, if the person carrying did not drink.

The general rule is that a private business can ban concealed carry, but they must post signs stating such as to inform the people with CCW permits. This I support.

As for playgrounds... I am not so sure. Last time I was at the Vermont State Fair in Rutland, the fair rules were no guns. However, you could check your gun at a booth at the entrance. You got it back when you left. I have read of similar arrangement at stadiums. If I remember correctly, Michigan allows concealed carry in schools, stadiums, churches, etc. However, the facilities can refuse entry as long as the facility post a sign saying such.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 20:39
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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In order to get a permit you need to prove no criminal background nor have a background with domestic violence. Before anyone could even think about getting a carry license they have to prove that they're upstanding citizen with an extensive background check.

Now compare that to the thugs and gangbangers walking around carrying heat daily here in JC.

Which group is likely to cause a 'carry' problem for you?

Posted on: 2014/3/4 20:37
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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When or where does the total perversion
of the second amendment stop? Anytime?
Anywhere? Where can you have a weapon? Anywhere?
Anytime? In bars? Schools? Hospitals? Playgrounds?
Etc...etc...etc?

Posted on: 2014/3/4 20:17
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More news on the subject:

First it was the National Rifle Association announcing it would file paperwork in support of John Drake?s lawsuit, in which he seeks a permit from the state that would allow him to carry a handgun in public. Then came the cavalry: 19 states are now asking the nation?s highest court to hear arguments on the matter, said Gov. Matt Mead of Wyoming, the state leading the charge.

??This decision out of New Jersey impacts the right to keep and bear arms outside of the home. So, I felt it was necessary to have the Attorney General support a petition to the Supreme Court to hear this case,? Mead said in a statement.

Drake, and other plaintiffs, are asking the U.S. Supreme Court to hear the case.

Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, New Mexico, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota and West Virginia have all agreed to join Wyoming in supporting Drake?s challenge to New Jersey?s gun control laws.

Drake, who owns an ATM business and sometimes carries large amounts of cash, said today that the formation of the multi-state coalition on his behalf was a total shock. The NRA support led to the increased visibility of the case ? and what it could mean nationally, he told The Star-Ledger.

?This wide support for our United State Constitution and Bill of Rights, as compared to some state and court who think it is the ?Bill of Needs? ? points out that Americans expect not only the Second Amendment to be obeyed and honored, but all of our rights to be obeyed and honored,? Drake said.

The lawsuit was originally filed in 2010 by Jeffrey Muller, a Newton pet-store owner who was beaten and kidnapped in a bizarre case of mistaken identity, and who was later denied a concealed-carry permit. Muller later withdrew from the case, after he was granted a permit. Currently, New Jersey requires ?justifiable need? to be proven before a concealed-carry handgun permit is issued.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 19:20
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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Seagull wrote:
...we have people like you [mrasg1] who for far too long have refused law-abiding citizens their constitutional right, but that time is now drawing to a close. Law-abiding citizens are tired of the criminals thinking they have the upper hand on society. I certainly think there should be limits to gun possession. How about we start with 20 year mandatory minimum sentences for criminals who go through illegal channels in order to obtain and carry a gun?


I don?t want more legislation or tougher penalties, I want wiser, more confident Americans with the sense to lead by example that we?re not doing our nation many favors by arming ourselves with loaded firearms in public places that are realistically quite safe.

I want Americans to spend less time doing free marketing and advertising work for a firearms lobby that does not have our nation?s interests at heart, only their profits.

I want Americans who are mature and enlightened enough to confront the various unconscious, psychological aspects of gun ownership, use, and deployment, and to openly discuss the relative merit of those effects.

And I want gun-owning Americans to please stop using the term ?law abiding? in our efforts to distance ourselves from an equation that absolutely involves us.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 15:50
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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I'm just excited that we found a topic that completely knocks Pebble of his game. Very uncharacteristic debating with emotions. Kinda fun to witness.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 5:01
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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mrasg1 wrote:
I'm living in fear? Look in the mirror my
friend. Peace and good night.


Thanks for conceding. Sleep tight.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 4:02
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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I'm living in fear? Look in the mirror my
friend. Peace and good night.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 3:59
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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mrasg1 wrote:
I don't want vigilante justice and to
live in the Wild West. Do YOU understand
THAT? There are no limits to gun possession
for some people. Damn.


I'm sorry you live in fear, and you're willing to be a victim, but I refuse to live like that. Apparently in NJ, most of the people here are very happy with the limits of gun possession, which currently limit carrying to police, ex-police, judges, gang members, psychopaths, cold-blooded killers, and just punks that want to mug people. Some of those types of people fall into more than one category that I just listed! However, we have people like you who for far too long have refused law-abiding citizens their constitutional right, but that time is now drawing to a close. Law-abiding citizens are tired of the criminals thinking they have the upper hand on society. I certainly think there should be limits to gun possession. How about we start with 20 year mandatory minimum sentences for criminals who go through illegal channels in order to obtain and carry a gun?

Posted on: 2014/3/4 3:49
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Re: Concealed carry coming to NJ?
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I don't want vigilante justice and to
live in the Wild West. Do YOU understand
THAT? There are no limits to gun possession
for some people. Damn.

Posted on: 2014/3/4 3:37
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