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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
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When Brewster writes that no-one downtown will be affected by the 2xs - 4xs increase of property taxes, overnight, it is not only ludicrous, but loses all credibility with making such an asinine and unsubstantiated comment, repeatedly.


Quote me where I said any such thing. You're just making shit up. Fake News.

Posted on: 2/21 12:45
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bodhipooh wrote:
I wonder Ralph_Abutts is the same person


You need not wonder. Brewster's argument is what is fair; mine is what is equitable. There is a difference. If you need evidence of such, look at my provactive and terse followup comments.

Debating fair tax policy, of any sort of taxes, I have no interest. It is interesting, but such debate could fill a book. Reval is of interest.

When Brewster writes that no-one downtown will be affected by the 2xs - 4xs increase of property taxes, overnight, it is not only ludicrous, but loses all credibility with making such an asinine and unsubstantiated comment, repeatedly.

All I am proposing, like others here, is that a one time exception for doing a stage reval occurs. I went into great detail as to why it will be beneficial for all property taxpayers.

Posted on: 2/21 11:07
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I asked this question some time ago. The answer someone provided as I recall is exactly as you suggested, that it would take some time to reach accurate pricing because of seller denial. I would assume though, that there must be some retrospective analysis of tax impact on values across the country that could be used for a formula to limit the increase to say 85% of the absolute number. Homeowners getting a 15% discount would feel less compelled to appeal which might take less of the city resources. I know some people will object to this based on on the difficulty of reaching a fair formula that is appropriately reflecting each city situation. It seems to me though, that if limited in scope, this proposal could gain more traction than an 5 year installment plan which has little prospect of winning imho.

Posted on: 2/18 14:54
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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135jc wrote:
residents will be flooding the tax office with appeals.


That raises an interesting question in my mind. So the way this is expected to play out is higher taxes cause a price drop creating grounds for appeal based on post reval comps. Never mind the fact this will take years to happen as sellers are very reluctant to drop prices and it will only really take hold when "must sell" transactions establish a new comp level.

What if they accounted for the the expected price drop in the assessments thus heading off the appeals? It's not hard to figure out what a tax hike would do to the monthly nut of the typical mortgaged buyer. It seems stupid on the face of it leaving money on the table by underassessing, but it would take some of the volatility out of the market.

Posted on: 2/17 23:23
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Monroe wrote:
Well, that ship has sailed, there won't be a phase in, and soon everyone will be paying their 'fair share'. It'll seesaw back for a few years then stabilize.


More like residents will be flooding the tax office with appeals. A better approach would be anticipating this and not using just recent sale prices as the sole basis

But that has been discussed before. The point of reviving this thread was to see if anyone had any info on the he current status of the process.

Posted on: 2/17 17:51
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Monroe wrote:
Well, that ship has sailed, there won't be a phase in, and soon everyone will be paying their 'fair share'. It'll seesaw back for a few years then stabilize.

But to keep it fair we will need an ironclad law calling for rolling reval and a regular one every decade. This can't be allowed to be a political can to kick down the road continually ever again. This whole thing is an artifact of gutless leadership and a local press content to be mostly stenographers.

Posted on: 2/17 17:19
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Posted on: 2/17 17:18
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Well, that ship has sailed, there won't be a phase in, and soon everyone will be paying their 'fair share'. It'll seesaw back for a few years then stabilize.

Posted on: 2/17 17:04
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Monroe wrote:
The reval delay is responsible for the real estate boom? More like the NYC boom is pushing people out to JC.


No, you missed my point. The delay has really begun to help prices balance more -- and if it could be put off a few more years it seems likely that a truer value map could be determined.

Posted on: 2/17 16:47
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The reval delay is responsible for the real estate boom? More like the NYC boom is pushing people out to JC.

Posted on: 2/17 16:38
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The great thing about the reval delay is that it has begun to give other areas of JC a chance to catch up with the price increases first seen in the Waterfront & Downtown areas. Just look at the prices in the areas all around Journal Square -- and also look at the prices for much of the Heights - now even Greenville has begun to really shoot up in the last year or two! It is a shame the reval can't be put off just a few more years! But phasing in increases would be the best thing to do!

Posted on: 2/17 16:28
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Well said bodhipooh. I no longer have the stomach to feed this troll.

Posted on: 2/17 15:33
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I wonder Ralph_Abutts is the same person that some years back was arguing the merits of downtowners paying less because they consume less city services. Of course, he is pushing self serving logic as far as the phase-in idea, then used poor math to try and disprove a fact (that they are more "overpayers" than "underpayers") and now pursuing the "well, us downtowners are not free loading off the city/state/etc" argument to justify the underpaying of taxes. At every turn, he is being purposefully obtuse: first by equating the number of overpayers necessarily being the same as underpayers since the reval must be revenue neutral (others have clearly explained why that is not the case) and now he is dismissing Brewster's point by arguing that when Brewster stated "That argument is a nonstarter as far as the US tax system is concerned" is not applicable because we are talking about local property taxes.

In the US, property taxes are always, and everywhere, levied as a percentage of property value. That's what Brewster meant, Ralph_Abutts. For reasons that defy logic, JC has gone almost 30 years without updating property values, and therefore taxation of local real estate is incredibly out of whack. Trying to argue that those well off consume less resources and therefore should pay less (in percentage) than others not so well off is a non starter for a variety of reasons, but mostly because that;'s just not how things work.

How about the young professional (such as myself) that lives in DTJC, but uses almost no city services (beyond street parking, and roads to come and go at times) and no kids in the system. I reckon I should pay a couple of hundred of dollars a year. But, that's not how things work. You don't pay for what you consume, that's not how taxation works in the US, in NJ, or in JC.

Posted on: 2/17 14:43
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:

brewster wrote:
That argument is a nonstarter as far as the US tax system is concerned.


That's correct > your argument is a nonstarter because the topic is about local property taxes.


To you point Ralph a condo living downtowner paying 10k on a 800k property probably "consumes" less resources then someone in Greenville on a 25x100 lot paying 6k in taxes

Posted on: 2/17 14:09
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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brewster wrote:
That argument is a nonstarter as far as the US tax system is concerned.
[/i]

That's correct > your argument is a nonstarter because the topic is about local property taxes.

Posted on: 2/17 13:40
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
Have you considered that the "overpayers" consume less of what they are paying for than the "underpayers"?

If so, then the use of those terms seems rather contradictory and I think it is best to rethink what it means to be an "overpayer".


That argument is a nonstarter as far as the US tax system is concerned. No one has gotten out of paying property tax because they don't have children for example. You're desperately reaching for some justification to continue having someone else pay your fair taxes.

Posted on: 2/17 13:34
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Have you considered that the "overpayers" consume less of what they are paying for than the "underpayers"?

If so, then the use of those terms seems rather contradictory and I think it is best to rethink what it means to be an "overpayer".

Posted on: 2/17 12:33
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
And if you truly understand a reval, you would know "overpayers" do not exceed "underpayers".


In all likelihood, that is an incorrect statement. In dollar terms, true. But the reallocation of the tax burden is not a one to one exercise. It is an almost certainty that the number of overpayers is far greater than the underpayers, but that each of the underpayers has been underpaying by a much greater amount than what each of the overpayers have overpaid. Just think about the value of the homes that are most prominently underpaying relative to the areas that get pointed to most frequently as overpayers. One $2 million underpaying house covers a lot of overpaying houses in Greenville, for instance.

Posted on: 2/17 11:49
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Jersey City's reval to begin soon

By Terrence T. McDonald | The Jersey Journal
Email the author | Follow on Twitter
on February 17, 2017 at 3:00 AM

An issue with Jersey City's tax maps that has postponed the already long-stalled property revaluation has been largely settled, meaning the reval will soon begin.

City spokeswoman Jennifer Morrill said the city is scheduling community meetings starting next month to give anxious homeowners an overview of the reval process. The city has not undergone a complete reval since 1988.

The schedule of meetings has not been finalized, Morrill said. Home inspections would likely begin soon after the meetings are conducted.

http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index ... ys_reval_to_begin_so.html


Posted on: 2/17 11:13
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Please tell us how you explain to owners who have been overpaying for many years, that outnumber the underpayers


If a homeowner thinks they are "overpaying", they are free to move. The choice is freely theirs to make and there will always be someone to purchase their property.

And if you truly understand a reval, you would know "overpayers" do not exceed "underpayers".


Nice. "Hey neighbor, get the fuck out if you don't like being ripped off". What you don't seem to understand is when an expensive property is paying 1/3 the rate of properties worth far less, it takes more of them to balance the books. A $1m home paying 1% needs 3 $333k homes paying 3% to balance their nice low tax. If those homes all appealed their assessments it would take a tax hike to keep the proportional rate low on the $1m house, so EVERYONE ELSE would be overpaying. It's zero sum game! Do you even know what that means?

Posted on: 2/17 10:54
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Please tell us how you explain to owners who have been overpaying for many years, that outnumber the underpayers


If a homeowner thinks they are "overpaying", they are free to move. The choice is freely theirs to make and there will always be someone to purchase their property.

And if you truly understand a reval, you would know "overpayers" do not exceed "underpayers".

Posted on: 2/17 9:35
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what will likely happen after the reval - there will be a be spotlight on city spending and continued tax abatements coming from home owners (mostly, but not all downtown).

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bodhipooh wrote:
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mfadam wrote:
Steve knows he's on thin ice with a lot of the DTJC voters who are less than pleased with what he has actually done while in office.

Throw in another 10-20K per year in RE taxes for the $1mm plus rowhouse crowd and you can bet the votes/donations will be tough to come by...


Exactly. So, it should come as NO SURPRISE that this administration will do ANYTHING possible to put off the reval until after the election happening later this year. Once re-elected, the administration would be more likely to survive the repercussions of the reval by weathering the criticism and fallout until the next election in 2021.

Posted on: 2/16 22:31
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135jc wrote:
You can't use Newark or Patterson as a comparison either. Their property values are much lower and they employ the same services as JC. Also aside from sales tax what other taxes do NY city residents pay? The outer boroughs have extremely low taxes and tremendous services.


How about NYC income tax?? They also have a stupendous commercial tax base, you simply can't compare anywhere to NYC. But the biggie is they simply tax small properties at a fraction of others. Here's their tax page, class 1 is 1-3 units, anything more is one of others. It's pretty byzantine, having different equalization rates and tax rates for each group.

http://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/taxes/property-tax-rates.page
Quote:
Your Assessed Value is based on a percentage of your Market Value. This percentage is known as the Level of Assessment or Assessment Ratio. Your Assessment Ratio depends on your tax class.

Assessment Ratios
Tax class 1 6%
Tax class 2, 3 and 4 45%


Here's a page that tries to explain it. http://commongroundnyc.org/nicemess.htm

Have you ever checked out tax rates elsewhere? We're actually right in the middle for North Jersey. Try Bergen County http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/gtrber15.pdf

Posted on: 2/16 22:09
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135jc wrote:
Jersey City market values are driven by it's close proximity to NYC. I can't stand when someone pretends that a 700k brownstone is the equivalent of a 700k house in the suburbs sitting on 2 acres of property. The brownstone in JC sits on a 25x100 lot if lucky. There is a larger tax base here plus tremendous business and industry to offset taxes. The truth is those in cities should pay less then those in sparsely populated areas. If u want to use NYC as a comparison go ahead. Taxes on similarly valued property are a fraction of what people in JC pay even using the old assessed values.

And Brewster you are constantly playing devil's advocate. Judging from the fact u are a long time resident of Hamilton Park you may just be in for a surprise when the reval hits.


The budget line differences between real cities and suburbs is tremendous. Everything from uniformed services to road work cost more due to more usage. Even our roads decay much faster from the beating they take. You can't compare to NYC, it chooses to tax residential property artificially low and compensate in other taxes. Compare instead to any close-in city in Bergen, or Westchester or Nassau and our taxes look normal.

And no, I won't be surprised, but neither do I think I should be getting special treatment because I somehow deserve it. On the other hand my taxes are not as low as many round here so I don't think they'll quite double. But they might.

G-P, there are people paying 3x the effective tax rate of some Downtowners, because their assessments are way too high. FMV comps will lower them, I got one of mine lowered 2 years ago.


You can't use Newark or Patterson as a comparison either. Their property values are much lower and they employ the same services as JC. Also aside from sales tax what other taxes do NY city residents pay? The outer boroughs have extremely low taxes and tremendous services.

Posted on: 2/16 20:43
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135jc wrote:
Jersey City market values are driven by it's close proximity to NYC. I can't stand when someone pretends that a 700k brownstone is the equivalent of a 700k house in the suburbs sitting on 2 acres of property. The brownstone in JC sits on a 25x100 lot if lucky. There is a larger tax base here plus tremendous business and industry to offset taxes. The truth is those in cities should pay less then those in sparsely populated areas. If u want to use NYC as a comparison go ahead. Taxes on similarly valued property are a fraction of what people in JC pay even using the old assessed values.

And Brewster you are constantly playing devil's advocate. Judging from the fact u are a long time resident of Hamilton Park you may just be in for a surprise when the reval hits.


The budget line differences between real cities and suburbs is tremendous. Everything from uniformed services to road work cost more due to more usage. Even our roads decay much faster from the beating they take. You can't compare to NYC, it chooses to tax residential property artificially low and compensate in other taxes. Compare instead to any close-in city in Bergen, or Westchester or Nassau and our taxes look normal.

And no, I won't be surprised, but neither do I think I should be getting special treatment because I somehow deserve it. On the other hand my taxes are not as low as many round here so I don't think they'll quite double. But they might.

G-P, there are people paying 3x the effective tax rate of some Downtowners, because their assessments are way too high. FMV comps will lower them, I got one of mine lowered 2 years ago.

Posted on: 2/16 20:36
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My original point was in response to people trying to compare property values and tax rates in Jersey city to those in the suburbs. It is not a fair comparison since an area with sparse population with a smaller base should be paying a higher rate. Using Summit as an example you can see that even with the town assuming most of the education costs they pay a far less tax rate then Jersey City pre or post reval.


https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7-P ... t-NJ-07901/40063490_zpid/


There's far more to it than that-large, urban cities like JC are rife with corruption, bloat, patronage, etc that adds to taxes (and yes, I know the crime is higher so you need more police, more density means more fire department support). If a city governs itself well and keeps costs down good for them. Most suburbs don't give out PILOT's like homeowners giving out Halloween candy, either.

Posted on: 2/16 18:33
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My original point was in response to people trying to compare property values and tax rates in Jersey city to those in the suburbs. It is not a fair comparison since an area with sparse population with a smaller base should be paying a higher rate. Using Summit as an example you can see that even with the town assuming most of the education costs they pay a far less tax rate then Jersey City pre or post reval.


https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7-P ... t-NJ-07901/40063490_zpid/

Posted on: 2/16 17:21
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It's hard to make a direct comparison of suburban (say, Summit) real estate taxes to JC. The biggest part of most suburban budget is education, and Summit, for example, covers 86% of its own school costs. JC self funds about 17%.

Posted on: 2/16 16:55
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not sure I follow your logic. Of course a highly populated city should theoretically have lower taxes than a suburb with 2 acre minimum lots. JC has a much bigger denominator than Summit. Yet post-Reval DTJC owners will be paying Summit type property taxes. I am not sure people are going to like that given the overall value proposition. Brooklyn rowhouses pay much lower percentages in RE taxes relative to FMV as NYC has an even bigger denominator than JC.

My view is that JC taxes at 1.8 - 2.2% of FMV will be a strong headwind if the Reval is done accurately. I think people would rather pay a higher price for their asset (equity) and lower taxes than the other way around. We'll find out eventually...

Posted on: 2/16 16:23
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