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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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brewster wrote:
That property we're discussing shows how ridiculous a disparity there is between comps and cap rates. Ignoramuses like Yvonne have complained about this before, that houses are valued more than commercial, and now it's going to be on steroids.


I suspect there will be many investment properties that are technically residential (4 units or less) that might become cash flow negative after the reval. I wonder if we will have a flood of buildings for sale hitting the market say about six months after the reval take effect?

Posted on: 1/23 19:50
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I must say I am looking forward with fascination to seeing what the citys appraisers do about the commercial properties that are valued by income. That property we're discussing shows how ridiculous a disparity there is between comps and cap rates. Ignoramuses like Yvonne have complained about this before, that houses are valued more than commercial, and now it's going to be on steroids.

Posted on: 1/23 19:22
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the FHA appraisal form uses three different methodologies, comps, rents and replacement. Depends on the appraiser the different weights applied to each method and coming up with the final appraisal. A non-owner-occupied investment 4U should have more weight on rents but the incompetence and venality of appraisers these days is beyond comprehension.[/quote]

I forgot about FHA. I did two 203k loans and they were an experience I would rather forget.

Rent played almost no role in the conventional loans I did years back, which meant I had rather tiny mortgages (and lots of capital stranded in the property). BCB bank was the only one willing to do a mortgage based on rent and improved value. They were also the only bank that gave me a reasonable construction loan.

Other than 203k loans, I financed the bulk of the construction work on credit cards (again.. something I would rather forget).

Posted on: 1/23 17:24
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At 4U they weight it more as a commercial by rents than a residential by comps, and even the most corrupt appraiser can't make those numbers work. The question is why sell it as a 4U subject to tougher rent based appraisals rather than condos where comps are all?



1 to 4 units is generally considered 'residential' and rents don't count. Pre housing bubble days, I had an issue getting mortgages in part because the comp sales around me were so low. The comparison were useless because they were non-renovated buildings. My rent receivable were 100% to 150% higher, but since I was 'residential' rental income didn't count towards the appraised value.

the FHA appraisal form uses three different methodologies, comps, rents and replacement. Depends on the appraiser the different weights applied to each method and coming up with the final appraisal. A non-owner-occupied investment 4U should have more weight on rents but the incompetence and venality of appraisers these days is beyond comprehension.

Posted on: 1/23 17:20
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mfadam wrote:
so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html



$3.595 million for a property with annual revenue of $131,000?? Plus, I'm pretty sure their yearly financial pro forma is wrong for not including maintenance, reserves and a vacancy allowance. Insurance also seems low for a four-family investment.

Posted on: 1/23 13:29
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totally agree. Simple math is not fear mongering. RE brokers really should do the right thing and disclose the probability that many homes will see significant tax increases. I'm not holding my breath...

I really think the test for DTJC RE is psychological. It was one thing when you could get a single family rowhouse for $1mm and change and pay 12K in taxes. It's a whole different ballgame when you are paying $2mm+ and 40K in RE taxes. All of sudden the so-so services, weak public schools, PATH crowding, etc don't seem like such a good value for the RE taxes being paid. Put another way - will people pay Summit, NJ taxes and accept inner city service levels.

Time will tell...

Posted on: 1/23 12:18
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mfadam wrote:
so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html


The property you mention is paying 0.6% in property taxes, assuming it sells at the asking price. Even if it was to sell at 2.5, they would be paying 0.8%... another property that can expect their tax bill to more than double in 2018.

Almost ever single non-abated 07302 property currently listed in Zillow with a value exceeding 600K is paying property taxes of around 1% (some slightly lower, others slight higher). The ones valued at 1 MM or higher are often paying comically low taxes (there is one listed at 1.2 MM paying a smidgen over 5K!) Yet, some people here are saying that predicting dramatically higher tax bills for those properties is fear mongering... I suppose sticking your head in the sand is less scary than acknowledging the truth.

Posted on: 1/23 11:48
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At 4U they weight it more as a commercial by rents than a residential by comps, and even the most corrupt appraiser can't make those numbers work. The question is why sell it as a 4U subject to tougher rent based appraisals rather than condos where comps are all?



1 to 4 units is generally considered 'residential' and rents don't count. Pre housing bubble days, I had an issue getting mortgages in part because the comp sales around me were so low. The comparison were useless because they were non-renovated buildings. My rent receivable were 100% to 150% higher, but since I was 'residential' rental income didn't count towards the appraised value.


Posted on: 1/22 21:18
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mfadam wrote:
Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.


Back in sane days a well priced rental would go for 100x monthly rent, that would make this worth $1.1m. But sane days are past. For an investor loan a bank would never do it, the numbers are crazy, that's a GRM of 27.5! At 4U they weight it more as a commercial by rents than a residential by comps, and even the most corrupt appraiser can't make those numbers work. The question is why sell it as a 4U subject to tougher rent based appraisals rather than condos where comps are all?

Posted on: 1/22 19:25
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so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html

Posted on: 1/22 17:45
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heights wrote:
So you are stating that taxes are low due to the market value of your area based on your income ?


No, I'm stating the effective tax rate (how I and most people define "high" vs 'Low") for JC is average for North Jersey and the Metropolitan Area with the exception of NYC with it's subsidized taxes. If you want to state a different measure that's fine, but define it rather than just saying "the taxes are too damn high!"

Dan, to base an argument about taxes on the notion that all the properties would have been built anyway is quite a big assumption. It's an accusation that the entire abatement program is corrupt top to bottom, beginning to no end in sight. I doubt that's true, though certainly the most recent DT abatements are unnecessary. But something like the NJCU project sounds like what the program was meant for, development in a "blighted area".

Posted on: 1/14 20:25
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Yvonne wrote:
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brewster, my information comes from the county administrator, we pay his salary to come up with his facts that I quote. It is not my facts at all.


You see, this is the evasion and doubling down that makes you look like an idiot. I'm certain the county administrator did not tell you that JC's taxes are "high". "High" is a relative term, you do know what that means Ms Former Teacher? I believe it's covered on Sesame Street. The answer you are unwilling to address is what is our taxes are "high" relative to. When I say they're not high for our area, you burble, say nonsense, repeat yourself at the first opportunity, and then wonder why people think you're disingenuous and/or a fool.

Wrong on so many levels Brewster. So you are stating that taxes are low due to the market value of your area based on your income ?

Posted on: 1/14 18:02
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It's hard to compute the net change in taxes due to PILOTing, but assuming that these buildings would be built anyway even if they had to pay normal taxes, my guess is that on the net, JC's PILOTed properties increase taxes for everyone else in Jersey City and certainly increase taxes for people living in other towns in Hudson County.



Posted on: 1/14 13:28
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Yvonne wrote:
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brewster, my information comes from the county administrator, we pay his salary to come up with his facts that I quote. It is not my facts at all.


You see, this is the evasion and doubling down that makes you look like an idiot. I'm certain the county administrator did not tell you that JC's taxes are "high". "High" is a relative term, you do know what that means Ms Former Teacher? I believe it's covered on Sesame Street. The answer you are unwilling to address is what is our taxes are "high" relative to. When I say they're not high for our area, you burble, say nonsense, repeat yourself at the first opportunity, and then wonder why people think you're disingenuous and/or a fool.

Posted on: 1/14 12:37
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brewster wrote:
She also says again and again that "taxes are high" without justifying it even when called out on it repeatedly. Not to mention always injecting the abatement issue into the reval discussion, when they actually have absolutely nothing to do with each other. We'd need a reval even if the Yvonne the Witch of the West (bank) waved her wand and made the abatements disappear, since the reval is about fairness between the taxpayers.

It truly appears she lacks the wits to understand these issues, and when called out always doubles down like her man tRump.


brewster, my information comes from the county administrator, we pay his salary to come up with his facts that I quote. It is not my facts at all.


I think it's fair to say that abatements lower your municipal taxes and raise your school taxes and county taxes, although the increase in school and county taxes is a missed offset opportunity, and not a true, net increase.

JC structures PILOT agreements so that the municipality gets more money than it would from regular taxation. For instance, instead of getting 50% of a $1 million all-in tax bill, it gets 95% of $750k PILOT payment.

PILOTed buildings don't give the schools any money at all and pay county fees at a significantly reduced rate.

If JC's PILOTed buildings paid normal taxes, they would offset the overall school levy and by a small but palpable amount for county taxes.

Since a third of JC is PILOTed (by far the state's highest total), the effect on school taxes is very significant.

My estimate is that JC's PILOTed buildings would have an Equalized Valuation of about $10-11 billion 2017. Hudson County's total Equalized Valuation is $71 billion.

Jersey City's PILOTed buildings are thus 15% of Hudson County's total. They do pay some money to the county, but 15% is a palpable impact even on the county's tax levy for the owners of non-PILOTed buildings.

It's hard to compute the net change in taxes due to PILOTing, but assuming that these buildings would be built anyway even if they had to pay normal taxes, my guess is that on the net, JC's PILOTed properties increase taxes for everyone else in Jersey City and certainly increase taxes for people living in other towns in Hudson County.

Steve Sweeney is actually trying to reform the PILOT law. It's part of his state aid reform package, although he's not spoken in public (AFAIK) about what changes he wants to happen with PILOTs.

Posted on: 1/14 10:24
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She also says again and again that "taxes are high" without justifying it even when called out on it repeatedly. Not to mention always injecting the abatement issue into the reval discussion, when they actually have absolutely nothing to do with each other. We'd need a reval even if the Yvonne the Witch of the West (bank) waved her wand and made the abatements disappear, since the reval is about fairness between the taxpayers.

It truly appears she lacks the wits to understand these issues, and when called out always doubles down like her man tRump.


brewster, my information comes from the county administrator, we pay his salary to come up with his facts that I quote. It is not my facts at all.

Posted on: 1/14 10:00
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She also says again and again that "taxes are high" without justifying it even when called out on it repeatedly. Not to mention always injecting the abatement issue into the reval discussion, when they actually have absolutely nothing to do with each other. We'd need a reval even if the Yvonne the Witch of the West (bank) waved her wand and made the abatements disappear, since the reval is about fairness between the taxpayers.

It truly appears she lacks the wits to understand these issues, and when called out always doubles down like her man tRump.

Posted on: 1/13 23:28
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Yeah, that's it. I'm stupid, but not as.... Maybe you can follow better than I.
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She writes about County taxes when the thread is about reevaluating the City tax base. The city reval will not change +/- the amount the city collects for the county in the form of county taxes.

She also mentions churches and schools not being taxed. Why would a school be taxed when it is supported by local taxes?

Posted on: 1/13 20:13
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Yvonne wrote:
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
"not taxed" != "abatement"

"Abatement is a reduction in the level of taxation faced by an individual or company. Examples of an abatement include a tax decrease, a reduction in penalties or a rebate. If an individual or business overpays its taxes or receives a tax bill that is too high, it can request an abatement from the tax authorities."
Abatement Definition | Investopedia
www.investopedia.com/terms/a/abatement.asp



Ralph, you are ignoring the fact that the county does not include tax abated property, or pilots in the formula when the county strikes the budget. If they did then the ratable base would be high and our tax bill would be much lower. I don't make this up, I do call the people who work on our budget in the county.



You're not very smart, yeah?

Posted on: 1/13 17:07
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Posted on: 1/13 16:21
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
"not taxed" != "abatement"

"Abatement is a reduction in the level of taxation faced by an individual or company. Examples of an abatement include a tax decrease, a reduction in penalties or a rebate. If an individual or business overpays its taxes or receives a tax bill that is too high, it can request an abatement from the tax authorities."
Abatement Definition | Investopedia
www.investopedia.com/terms/a/abatement.asp



Ralph, you are ignoring the fact that the county does not include tax abated property, or pilots in the formula when the county strikes the budget. If they did then the ratable base would be high and our tax bill would be much lower. I don't make this up, I do call the people who work on our budget in the county.


Posted on: 1/13 16:18
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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"not taxed" != "abatement"

"Abatement is a reduction in the level of taxation faced by an individual or company. Examples of an abatement include a tax decrease, a reduction in penalties or a rebate. If an individual or business overpays its taxes or receives a tax bill that is too high, it can request an abatement from the tax authorities."
Abatement Definition | Investopedia
www.investopedia.com/terms/a/abatement.asp


Posted on: 1/13 16:08
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So that means the information that is printed in the county is false, Ralph? Look it up it is usally on page 4 or 6 where it lists other properties not taxed. It is separate from schools and public buildings, and churches. These are taxed abated properties that are not included in the ratable base. Besides I always call the county adminstrator every year and go over the numbers.

I should also include the state of NJ for lying about this too, Ralph.

Posted on: 1/13 15:41
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An innumerate person wrote:
The taxes are high because abatements are not included in the ratable base. Several billion dollars are not there so when the county strikes the budget, it is based on ratables, not abated buildings.


Not correct. If you excluded abatement revenue from the municipal budget, the property tax rate will be much, much higher.

Posted on: 1/13 15:16
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The taxes are high because abatements are not included in the ratable base. Several billion dollars are not there so when the county strikes the budget, it is based on ratables, not abated buildings.

Posted on: 1/13 15:01
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bodhipooh wrote:
Market conditions change. It just so happens that real estate market conditions in JC have improved tremendously over the past two years, with year-over-year valuation going up over 15%, while the city budget has grown very little, so the total tax rate needed to cover government costs has continued to drop.

To explain it a different way, the rate is determined by what total tax, the Levy, is determined to be. They don't just keep the same effective rate as the values go up and let the cash roll in.
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Mao wrote:
The high property tax issue for JC is the reason that we should enact a payroll tax.


So now I have to say this to you as well as Yvonne: Prove JC taxes are high!! They're average for North Jersey, and after the reval might actually be on the low side. You can find on this page the rate of every town in NJ http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/lpt/taxrate.shtml

Posted on: 1/13 12:13
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tern wrote:
I understand taxes are going to go up a lot on many downtown properties, but there is a big difference between 1.7% and 2% (or 2.2% as I believe Bodipooh speculated in some of his earlier missives).

The fact is we just don't know what the rate we will be, the only thing we can say is that if the appraisals are done correctly a $1 million house downtown should end up paying 4 times as much as a $250,000 place in the heights. Now if the heights house is actually valued at $500,000 (extended over the whole heights), it 'reduces' the downtown home's tax to only twice what the heights house is paying.

If you have been watching the market in the past two years it is not just downtown prices that are on the boil.

Robin.


I know most people have trouble with numbers, so I will try to explain: three years ago, when the reval was first cancelled, the estimated effective tax rate was about ~2.2%. That is the reason why that number was bandied about back then. Then the effective rate was closer to 2, and now we are looking at about 1.8%. That doesn't mean the numbers were inaccurate. It just means that for the market conditions in 2014, that 2.2% was correct, but it has since changed. A similar analogy would be to look at unemployment rates from years ago, and compare the number to present day and exclaim "well, those numbers were obviously wrong." Market conditions change. It just so happens that real estate market conditions in JC have improved tremendously over the past two years, with year-over-year valuation going up over 15%, while the city budget has grown very little, so the total tax rate needed to cover government costs has continued to drop.


Posted on: 1/13 11:26
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Azul_the_Cat wrote:
When we live in one of the states with the highest taxes in the nation, I doubt people want to cough up another 1% or even .5%, unless the increase is offset by a reduction somewhere else.

just my $0.02

Meh... No one likes paying taxes.

And again, since this is revenue neutral, in order for one person's tax bill to go up, another person's tax bill has to go down. This is about fairness, not about socking people for higher taxes.

Posted on: 1/13 10:01
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It still amazes me that people thought the taxes they were paying on some of these DTJC properties was correct....

I don' think most people have any clue how real estate taxes are calculated. They just look at the sheet, see "ok that's the tax," and hate paying no matter what the amount.

Posted on: 1/13 9:59
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hero69 wrote:
i was looking at properties for sale and i noticed that prices in the heights seemed to have jumped significantly. i almost fell backwards when i saw the prices! if owners are realizing such prices, that should have an mitigate the impact of the reval on downtown


I agree - the Heights is not cheap.

Posted on: 1/13 9:29
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