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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Monroe wrote:
Since JC gets almost as much from other state taxpayers to support JC schools as its total budget it's laughable to say JC had high taxes, especially given the proposed 1.62 rate.


Where is stateaidguy when you need him? That 1.62 rate is a pretty big hammer...


If you think that 1.62 is a big hammer, just wait a year or two. Once the county decides to adjust the JC contribution, it will go up. And, there is a very good chance that the state will cut back on the school funding, which will also lead to a higher school tax for residents. Also, if the market valuations drop, the rate will have to go up to compensate for the drop. I wouldn't be surprised to see a rate of 2% (or, higher) in the next few years.

Posted on: 2018/2/16 14:44
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Monroe wrote:
Since JC gets almost as much from other state taxpayers to support JC schools as its total budget it's laughable to say JC had high taxes, especially given the proposed 1.62 rate.


Where is stateaidguy when you need him? That 1.62 rate is a pretty big hammer...

Posted on: 2018/2/16 13:41
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Haggis wrote:
Does anyone know how many owners have not rec'd their reval yet?
Haven't seen my property on any list, mailbox filled daily with useless spam.
Just want to know at this point.
Thanks mates.

Second that!

Posted on: 2018/2/16 13:08
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LOL! So true.


Yrah, like your banging on about a single little league baseball field equating that with an insufficient supply of ball fields. Got it. Your too busy trying to climb out of the big kettle to notice how black it is...

Posted on: 2018/2/16 12:02
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Yvonne wrote:
Please Brewster, come and speak at a budget hearing, because I am tired of being the only public speaker.


Ah, there it is. The great confusion between talking and knowing. Yes, Yvonne - you talk. If you spent half as much time listening as you do talking, you might actually know something.

Posted on: 2018/2/16 11:48
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tictaktoe wrote:
are you nuts?


So I take it you will not attend a budget hearing but just criticize me when I quote from the budget on why the tax rate and really the revaluation is out of whack.


Posted on: 2018/2/16 4:41
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are you nuts?

Posted on: 2018/2/16 4:23
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For some reason, I do not see Brewster or others at the budget. Here are some facts: When the 1988 revaluation happened, it took $5 million to create one dollar, these are rough figures. Where did I get this information from? Our previous business administrators, including Brian O'Reilly, who I had a good relationship. Every information I asked for, he gave me. My other source is tax office at Hudson County. Sometimes I am the only person speaking at budget hearing, so I disagree with your statement Brewster. I have been asking these questions for more than 30 years. According to Duda, the shift in revaluation will take place in our August bill, which is great. August is the first payment for the fiscal year. JC reversed back to a calendar year. If the revaluation was to happened today for the February quarter, the taxpayers would have to go back to August of 2017. That happened in the 1988 revaluation. Jersey City was unique in that in 1988, we had a calendar year, then in 1991, we matched the state with a fiscal year and about 5 years ago, the city returned backed to a calendar year. I was concerned about the city giving the corrected tax bills in May, if that happened, taxpayers would have to go back to fix the back taxes to August of 2017, as I have already stated. When the new ratio happens, I will ask the business administrator as well as the county tax assessor how much money is used to create one dollar for that is listed on our tax bill. Just to throw in some history, it took $212.00 to raise one dollar on the tax rate before the 1988 revaluation. Please Brewster, come and speak at a budget hearing, because I am tired of being the only public speaker. There are amazing things you learn. Since there is no time limit on budget hearings, I do go into details on fiscal matters. By the way, the Friendly Budget lists how much money tax abated property saves by having an abatement. That is another interesting fact. It is the one thing, Governor Christie demanded municipalities do. So while you are talking about fairness, it clearly states in black and red what tax abated properties are not paying and what they would pay if it were treated as a ratable.

Posted on: 2018/2/16 4:08
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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$485 million in 2013 works out to $515 million in 2017, when adjusted for CPI (https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm)

And the population has grown by what? 10k in that time? (This is just my estimate based on the 17k increase between 2010 and 2016).

Adjusted for inflation and population growth, I don't think the budget has exactly exploded.

Posted on: 2018/2/16 1:17
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Yvonne wrote:
What is missing from this revaluation is the budget, yes the budget is the number based on those figures. When Healy left office, the budget was $485 million. Fulop's last budget - 2017 - was $588 million. I personally believe Fulop stopped revaluation so he would not be under any scrutiny on his spending habits and he could give 70 plus tax abatement in his first term. Remember how he would attack Healy for tax abatements? For those wondering why we did not feel the impact of the spending, it has to do with expired tax abatements. The tax abatements granted under Schundler expired and the ratable base increase. I have always said our taxes are high due to tax abatements because they are not ratables.


Wasn’t one of the first things Mayor Fulop do when he took office was amend Healy’s $485 million budget because of a short fall? So when saying “Healy left office, the budget was $485 million” that 485 should have a ‘*’ next to it.

7/10/2013 JJ: “The amendments, which increase the proposed spending plan to $516 million, represent "a variety of changes,” city Assistant Business Administrator Bob Kakoleski told the council at its special meeting tonight.”

And wasn’t the next thing Mayor Fulop do when he took office was come up with a tiered abatement plan to encourage development in other parts of JC? It seems to be working.

8/22/2013 JJ: “The plan, which Fulop called a top priority when he was running for mayor this spring, creates a six-tier system that provides more benefits to developers seeking to build in Journal Square, Bergen-Lafayette and Greenville and fewer perks for those building along the waterfront.”

I bet you were great playing Twister.




Posted on: 2018/2/16 1:11
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Yvonne wrote:
What is missing from this revaluation is the budget


No, the budget isn't missing because it has nothing to do with the reval. The reval is about EQUALITY BETWEEN PROPERTY TAX PAYERS!!! It does not raise the tax levy. Is the city wasteful and the budget too high? likely, but that is not the issue of the reval, and you keep inserting it and other nonsense as a way to muddy the issue, just like all your accusations of "free rider" to people paying PILOTS far higher than your taxes. In fact, had the reval taken place on schedule all the people underpaying might have been more engaged in how the city was spending their money. Will they now? Hopefully, but THE BUDGET HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE REVAL!

Monroe, I've given up on calling her out on the "high taxes" BS. I used to say "prove that they're high", but she does not deal in facts.

Posted on: 2018/2/16 0:46
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Since JC gets almost as much from other state taxpayers to support JC schools as its total budget it's laughable to say JC had high taxes, especially given the proposed 1.62 rate.

Posted on: 2018/2/16 0:37
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What is missing from this revaluation is the budget, yes the budget is the number based on those figures. When Healy left office, the budget was $485 million. Fulop's last budget - 2017 - was $588 million. I personally believe Fulop stopped revaluation so he would not be under any scrutiny on his spending habits and he could give 70 plus tax abatement in his first term. Remember how he would attack Healy for tax abatements? For those wondering why we did not feel the impact of the spending, it has to do with expired tax abatements. The tax abatements granted under Schundler expired and the ratable base increase. I have always said our taxes are high due to tax abatements because they are not ratables.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 23:56
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Well put. People calling for a phase in are being greedy and encouraging more bad behavior.


Not really. Rather this conversation is just above the level of comprehension and analytical capability for some folk.


Yes, and those people who can't comprehend it are the ones downtown crying foul. Thank you for confirming!!


LOL! So true.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 23:50
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Well put. People calling for a phase in are being greedy and encouraging more bad behavior.


Not really. Rather this conversation is just above the level of comprehension and analytical capability for some folk.


Yes, and those people who can't comprehend it are the ones downtown crying foul. Thank you for confirming!!

Posted on: 2018/2/15 22:01
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SOS wrote:
At the HCA meeting with Fulop and Solomon on Monday the 12th, it was mentioned that all value letters will be sent by February 19.

Perhaps Terrance McDonald can confirm this date?


Company told me the Feb. date referred to Downtown properties. All properties should get their letters by mid-March, they said.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 21:54
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Well put. People calling for a phase in are being greedy and encouraging more bad behavior.


Not really. Rather this conversation is just above the level of comprehension and analytical capability for some folk.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 21:50
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Dinger wrote:
ASI won't be mailing value letters until the end of March. Most of the assessments are still "in progress."


At the HCA meeting with Fulop and Solomon on Monday the 12th, it was mentioned that all value letters will be sent by February 19.

Perhaps Terrance McDonald can confirm this date?


The time-frame I quoted was sent to me by ASI.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 19:40
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
The point is the entire city would be better off, including those with reduced assessments, if the state made a one time exception and had a stepup/phase in assessment. If so, the current reval would never have taken as long as it did to finally occur. The incentives to do so were not right under the current law.

And I've already pointed out how that will not happen, and doesn't make any sense. To present it more clearly than before, and add to it:

• Your proposal is almost certainly illegal under current law

• The state legislators would be fools to vote for it, since it will reward this form of negligence, and give other municipalities an incentive to keep delaying revals

• Jersey City doesn't deserve special treatment, since its chief role here is to delay and obstruct and sue and refuse to follow the law, to the bitter end

• Anyone with half a brain will see this as a transparent attempt to add yet another delay to the reval

• This is a problem that JC caused for itself, by going 3 decades without adjusting its taxes, and it's not Trenton's job to fix it

• It is utterly false that the "entire city" will benefit, as the tens of thousands of property owners who are scheduled for a tax cut will need to pay more taxes

• The people who are facing a tax hike had years to prepare, it's not like this was a secret

• The people who are facing a tax hike did nothing whatsoever to earn or deserve any special treatment whatsoever -- in fact, they've benefitted for years (if not decades) by paying less than their fair share

In short: Your "phase in" proposal is deeply unfair; it incentivizes municipal negligence; and it's not going to happen anyway. Pass.
Well put. People calling for a phase in are being greedy and encouraging more bad behavior.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 19:22
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Property taxes should be fair. If your house (living in downtown is worth 1,000,000 - you should pay 16,000 and if you live in a poorer area of our city, say Greenville, and your house is worth 200,000, you should pay 3200. That's fair and equal. If a lawyer, living in a brownstone, worth 1,000,000 cannot afford to pay another 6,000 (and with new tax law, exempt it from his taxes beyond 10,000), he or she needs to reconsider what to do with the property. I have a feeling the lawyer will be able to afford the 60 percent increase. I know it sucks, but fair is fair and other parts of the city should not be taxed unequally and disadvantaged.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 19:18
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Yvonne wrote:
Taxes are services, plain and simple. My former downtown neighbors did not spend millions on their homes. Some worked two jobs to buy their homes in the 1970s and 1980s. Their tax bills are similar to their purchase prices. Everyone generalize, some were used as one family homes, others could not rent due to damage from Irene and Sandy. When people read about these big rents, everyone generalize and that is wrong. My fear is these good people will lose their homes.


And that Yvonne, as I've said before plain and simple, is economic violence. These people bought homes, raised families and were good citizens. All they wanted was to live out their lives in their city. Shame on the administration.


Yours is a very curious stand. You claim economic violence because a person that owns a property worth over a million dollars (in Yvonne's example, some of those properties are worth 2.5+ MM!) is now expected to pay their fair share of taxes, but what about the single mother, or other disadvantaged person, living in the poorer areas of JC being asked to subsidize DTJC by paying effective tax rates that are 6 - 8 times higher!? Isn't it much more heartless (and, "violent"?) to expect (demand, even!) that a poor resident continue to "overpay" so that a demonstrably richer one can continue to under pay?? Is your concept of economic violence only applicable to people you can relate to or happen to know? Definitely a very curious stand.

You really should sit out this conversation, as it is clear you do not understand what is happening. Your previous post asking for an explanation of how the rates stack up and came to be shows that you do not understand the very basics of the conversation.


If you're wondering how Yvonne's lies still manage to have staying power, look no further than someone like Rich Mauro.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 18:47
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Dinger wrote:
ASI won't be mailing value letters until the end of March. Most of the assessments are still "in progress."


At the HCA meeting with Fulop and Solomon on Monday the 12th, it was mentioned that all value letters will be sent by February 19.

Perhaps Terrance McDonald can confirm this date?

Posted on: 2018/2/15 17:47
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Yvonne wrote:
Taxes are services, plain and simple. My former downtown neighbors did not spend millions on their homes. Some worked two jobs to buy their homes in the 1970s and 1980s. Their tax bills are similar to their purchase prices. Everyone generalize, some were used as one family homes, others could not rent due to damage from Irene and Sandy. When people read about these big rents, everyone generalize and that is wrong. My fear is these good people will lose their homes.


And that Yvonne, as I've said before plain and simple, is economic violence. These people bought homes, raised families and were good citizens. All they wanted was to live out their lives in their city. Shame on the administration.


Yours is a very curious stand. You claim economic violence because a person that owns a property worth over a million dollars (in Yvonne's example, some of those properties are worth 2.5+ MM!) is now expected to pay their fair share of taxes, but what about the single mother, or other disadvantaged person, living in the poorer areas of JC being asked to subsidize DTJC by paying effective tax rates that are 6 - 8 times higher!? Isn't it much more heartless (and, "violent"?) to expect (demand, even!) that a poor resident continue to "overpay" so that a demonstrably richer one can continue to under pay?? Is your concept of economic violence only applicable to people you can relate to or happen to know? Definitely a very curious stand.

You really should sit out this conversation, as it is clear you do not understand what is happening. Your previous post asking for an explanation of how the rates stack up and came to be shows that you do not understand the very basics of the conversation.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 17:32

Edited by bodhipooh on 2018/2/15 17:55:24
Edited by bodhipooh on 2018/2/15 17:56:28
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ASI won't be mailing value letters until the end of March. Most of the assessments are still "in progress."

Posted on: 2018/2/15 16:51
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Rich you should be thanking Fulop. If your taxes go up, say, 10k his delaying the reval 4 years saved you 40k!

Posted on: 2018/2/15 16:21
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Yvonne wrote:
Taxes are services, plain and simple. My former downtown neighbors did not spend millions on their homes. Some worked two jobs to buy their homes in the 1970s and 1980s. Their tax bills are similar to their purchase prices. Everyone generalize, some were used as one family homes, others could not rent due to damage from Irene and Sandy. When people read about these big rents, everyone generalize and that is wrong. My fear is these good people will lose their homes.


And that Yvonne, as I've said before plain and simple, is economic violence. These people bought homes, raised families and were good citizens. All they wanted was to live out their lives in their city. Shame on the administration.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 16:05
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
You are all over the place with your responses.

The point is the entire city would be better off, including those with reduced assessments, if the state made a one time exception and had a stepup/phase in assessment. If so, the current reval would never have taken as long as it did to finally occur. The incentives to do so were not right under the current law.

Additionally, the current state law should be amended to explicitly penalize those municipalities that do not adhere to the law like withholding state aid, removing tax cap exceptions, etc. Thay is, it will provide them with a strong incentive to do revals on a regular basis.


Again, a phase in would only benefit the 1/6th of the city that has significantly underpaid for years, while the other 5/6ths would continue to overpay. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and seems so obviously rooted in self interest. Everyone knew this was coming but didn't believe how severe it would be, and now everyone's crying poor. Others here have said it, there ARE options (appeals, senior freezes, et); nobody, and I mean NOBODY, will have empathy or sympathy for someone sitting on a $1mm+ home valuation.

Regarding state law, what SHOULD change is JC receiving as much state aid as it gets for its schools. That should be over and done with after this.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 15:51
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
The point is the entire city would be better off, including those with reduced assessments, if the state made a one time exception and had a stepup/phase in assessment. If so, the current reval would never have taken as long as it did to finally occur. The incentives to do so were not right under the current law.

And I've already pointed out how that will not happen, and doesn't make any sense. To present it more clearly than before, and add to it:

• Your proposal is almost certainly illegal under current law

• The state legislators would be fools to vote for it, since it will reward this form of negligence, and give other municipalities an incentive to keep delaying revals

• Jersey City doesn't deserve special treatment, since its chief role here is to delay and obstruct and sue and refuse to follow the law, to the bitter end

• Anyone with half a brain will see this as a transparent attempt to add yet another delay to the reval

• This is a problem that JC caused for itself, by going 3 decades without adjusting its taxes, and it's not Trenton's job to fix it

• It is utterly false that the "entire city" will benefit, as the tens of thousands of property owners who are scheduled for a tax cut will need to pay more taxes

• The people who are facing a tax hike had years to prepare, it's not like this was a secret

• The people who are facing a tax hike did nothing whatsoever to earn or deserve any special treatment whatsoever -- in fact, they've benefitted for years (if not decades) by paying less than their fair share

In short: Your "phase in" proposal is deeply unfair; it incentivizes municipal negligence; and it's not going to happen anyway. Pass.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 15:47
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Monroe wrote:
My 93 year old dad pays over 30k in the suburbs, because his town pays for 90% of its own school cost, in effect subsidizing districts like Newark and JC-which combined suck a billion and a half dollars each and every year. So DTJC owners now paying more, well it could be worse-you could pay more than 17% for your own schools.


I agree with you about the board of ed funding. When the state cuts us off, downtown property will see their taxes jump again. There are no free lunches. I have criticized every administration for tax abatements that do not fund education.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 15:07
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My 93 year old dad pays over 30k in the suburbs, because his town pays for 90% of its own school cost, in effect subsidizing districts like Newark and JC-which combined suck a billion and a half dollars each and every year. So DTJC owners now paying more, well it could be worse-you could pay more than 17% for your own schools.

Posted on: 2018/2/15 14:51
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