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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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heights wrote:
This is not about J.C. history and culture read the thread title. Ever heard of Europe.

The United States is unlike most other nations in that its history and culture is the blend of the immigrants who founded, and populated this nation.
Almost every city in the NorthEast is what it is today because of the immigrants who came over and populated it. Their history, cultures, and traditions thus became a part of the city, and the region.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 17:37
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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12345 wrote:

Guy Catrillo is also responsible for the 911 tombstone and broken steel memorial at the foot of Grand Street. He could not get doves for the early morning ceremony on 9.11.2002 so he purchased pigeons from a slaughterhouse in Newark and the disgrace that ensued made international news.


omigod, I'd never heard this story. thanks for sharing! it will haunt/amuse me for days to come.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 17:34
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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2DogDoll wrote:
>>> It is objectionable to many and is therefore inappropriate. >>>
This is not about Guy Catrillo. This is a part of Jeresy City's history and culture. Leave it alone.

This is not about J.C. history and culture read the thread title. Ever heard of Europe.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 17:08
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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theres well over a hundred candles on the thing as of yesterday. obviously it means alot to some people in jc. the thing isnt going anywhere you whiney fruitcakes.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 12:29
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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12345 wrote:
The word to consider here is Public. It is objectionable to many and is therefore inappropriate. If it were a scene of a movie it would be considered PG or PG 13 because the image is violent and "material may be not suitable for children" and therefore not suitable as Public Art. I do not want my kids to see it. Put it in a museum where people can choose to see it.
.


If your concerned about your children seeing innappropriate things, you ought to worry more about the half-naked "women" around Jc....

Seeing such a monument will do them no harm, but may in fact stir an intererest in them about history, about their heritage, and about freedom.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 11:28
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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>>> It is objectionable to many and is therefore inappropriate. >>>

There are a lot of things in life that are objectionabe to many. One person's objectionable is another person's "fine." So how about the many people who find it compelling and want it to stay? Don't their opinions count?

Have you actually seen the so called "giant vagina" ? It's really a giant tear drop and the reflections in the metal at various times of the day, not to mention the background scenes, can be quite amazing. It may not qualify as great art, whatever that means, but it is a powerful visual.

This is not about Guy Catrillo. This is a part of Jeresy City's history and culture. Leave it alone.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 11:08
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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The word to consider here is Public. It is objectionable to many and is therefore inappropriate. If it were a scene of a movie it would be considered PG or PG 13 because the image is violent and "material may be not suitable for children" and therefore not suitable as Public Art. I do not want my kids to see it. Put it in a museum where people can choose to see it.

Guy Catrillo the Team Healy candidate and PLANNING BOARD employee who is sitting in jail right now for his conviction of taking bribes is the person responsible for placing Katyn at its current location. I know this because I attended a meeting several years ago where I personally heard him say this to the group. He said it was before the tall buildings and other neighborhoods did not want it so Exchange Place was the easy target.

Guy Catrillo is also responsible for the 911 tombstone and broken steel memorial at the foot of Grand Street. He could not get doves for the early morning ceremony on 9.11.2002 so he purchased pigeons from a slaughterhouse in Newark and the disgrace that ensued made international news.

Guy Carillo was persistent; after the pigeon fiasco he continued to lead the 911 Memorial Committee and was one of the advocates of a monumnet in Bayonne sometimes referred to as the "giant vagina". It was originally supposed to be placed right next to Katyn on the Exchange Place pier.

I am polish; I hate Putin and the Russian Dictators that preceded him and I want this hideous statue removed. It looks like something that a Russian Artist would come up with to disgrace the memory of the Polish massacre.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 2:23
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I read all these posts and I have some thoughts to share

1.) This monument was envisioned, and constructed through the will and hard work of the Polish Community in Jersey City. Tax payers did not pay for this, the people raised money and made this monument as a testement that they will never forget what happened in Katyn in 1940.

2.) Those of you who say to dump it in the ocean, shame on you. Uncalled for.

3.) Those who fail to understand the symbolism of the scuplture. The "stabbing in the back" is very often used phrase when describing Poland in World War II, because when WWII erupted, Poland was fighting Germany, from September 1, however on September 17, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east, unnanounced and unprovoked. Thus the Poles refer to the Soviet Invasion as a stabbing in the back. So that is why the POw is being bayonneted.

4.) Is the monument gruesome, sure, but I find it very fitting. It conveys a message, and it commemorates the dead. Its a part of Jersey City culture now, and to do away with it is a travesty. It does not obstruct the view of NYC at all. If you want to see NYc, do behind the sculptuer, along the water.

5.) And for those who dont know, the monument is still in use, serving as the site of numerous Polish ceremonies and events.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 0:34
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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neverleft wrote:

Hey sinik....

You know what? I think you are on to something!

I have never seen Christopher Columbus jogging down in Liberty State Park. (I may give him a pass on that just because he did wear those nasty painful looking shoes) Nor has he ever had his ship docked at the Liberty Marina.



1. I wonder how many statues to Columbus there are in Poland. Maybe they have no particular reason to have them.
2. I certainly would have little problem if the Katyn Memorial was in LSP although it is still ugly and has an in your face political message that is directed as much at ally as enemy.
If people don't know why this is, I suggest they acquaint themselves with the Katyn story and its aftermath and the nature of the western response in 1943 when the graves were discovered. I am sure there was plenty to criticize the US and UK for but is it the right place in a war memorial to the dead?
3. Columbus may never have set foot in America but he is a very significant figure in the history of America.
4. Does the Columbus statue have any particular political message?

Posted on: 2010/4/30 23:44
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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The statue reminds me daily, of what cityhall is doing to it's residents

Posted on: 2010/4/30 18:28
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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As a person who lost relatives in the holocaust, I would feel the same way if someone put up a statue of a prisoner in a concentration camp being bayonetted in the back. There are plenty of ways to memorialize that event in history without an ugly statue. In fact, why not use this as a catalyst to start a museum for this similar to the various holocaust museums around the world? -1 out of place statue, +1 museum.... creates jobs, cultural interest, etc.


Terri wrote:
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As I person who had relatives that died during the Katyn massacre, how dare you degrade the meaning behind this statue. I wish you could tell how you feel to my relatives, but they're dead - died for no reason by people who are/were as ignorant as you seem to be. I'm horrified at your thoughts. What is next, holocaust memorials?


I'd tell them that they deserve a better memorial than that lone, ugly statue.

Posted on: 2010/4/30 15:05
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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What a mess this thread is.
Some say the "hipsters" want to keep it and some say it's the old school JCers that want it. Same thing for getting rid of it. Aside from that, I think someone else is using "hipster" and "yuppie" interchangeably.

In any event. I didn't know about the Katyn massacre until I first saw the statue. The obvious curiousity of the piece made me take notice and learn about the tragedy. The monument has served its purpose.
For those keeping score, I like it.

Posted on: 2010/4/30 14:48
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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the over-the-top gruesomeness of this statue is sort of why I like it. say what you will, it definitely gets your attention.

but that's why I think it defeats the purpose of honoring the Katyn dead. it's almost too macabre to inspire thoughtful discussion.

as a landmark, you could do worse than "meet me at the statue of the guy with the bayonet sticking out of his back. no, seriously. it's a huge bayonet, sticking right through him. you'll know it when you see it."

Posted on: 2010/4/30 13:46
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Kind of feel the same way about you. Thanks for sharing!

Posted on: 2010/4/30 13:32
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Hey sinik....

You know what? I think you are on to something!

I have never seen Christopher Columbus jogging down in Liberty State Park. (I may give him a pass on that just because he did wear those nasty painful looking shoes) Nor has he ever had his ship docked at the Liberty Marina.

Screw him…lets start a drive to have that ugly Tiki God statue..err… Fudge sickle… err… sail?.. removed from LSP.

Who’s with me?

Resized Image


Sails of Columbus Monument
Liberty State Park

Posted on: 2010/4/30 12:25
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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corybraiterman wrote:
I say this every time this thread comes up.

Long time JC resident. Fairly ugly statue that is out of place and was erected to get votes. Would love to see it moved to somewhere more appropriate, like Poland, or at least not the center of the downtown district.



There are 235,000+ long time residents who don't want this statue. Keep the 2,000 hipsters who want to keep this statue in place from taking over this town. Thank you.


As I person who had relatives that died during the Katyn massacre, how dare you degrade the meaning behind this statue. I wish you could tell how you feel to my relatives, but they're dead - died for no reason by people who are/were as ignorant as you seem to be. I'm horrified at your thoughts. What is next, holocaust memorials?

Posted on: 2010/4/30 12:11
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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corybraiterman wrote:

There are 235,000+ long time residents who don't want this statue. Keep the 2,000 hipsters who want to keep this statue in place from taking over this town. Thank you.


Hipsters? There is still a large and active Polish community in Paulus Hook, it's they and not these alleged hipsters who would object to seeing their memorial removed.

Anyone remember the "Stop the Ethnic Cleansing!" flyers all over PH back when OLC stopped Polish-language mass?

Posted on: 2010/4/30 12:03
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I say this every time this thread comes up.

Long time JC resident. Fairly ugly statue that is out of place and was erected to get votes. Would love to see it moved to somewhere more appropriate, like Poland, or at least not the center of the downtown district.



There are 235,000+ long time residents who don't want this statue. Keep the 2,000 hipsters who want to keep this statue in place from taking over this town. Thank you.

Posted on: 2010/4/30 11:51
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Judging from your avatar you appear to be Russian. Whether or not, I have no sympathy for your effort to erase history.

As someone who is neither Polish nor Russian, I see the Katyn monument in a very different way. I see it as a depiction of the danger of Totalitarianism, which we barely escaped becoming a world-wide ideology; whether in the form of Nazism or Communism. Furthermore, Communism is much more tolerated, despite having resulted in many more deaths at the hands of Communist regimes. For example, ignorant college kids walk around with Che t-shirts while only the dregs of society display Nazi images. When 5:1 social science college professors self-describe as Marxist than conservative (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=amjn_0feDpcM) there is something wrong. Similarly, nobody is critiquing the many Holocaust Memorials in the U.S., such as the one in Battery Park, on the basis of them being foreign or ugly.

In short, I love the Katyn memorial and miss no opportunity to explain it to visitors to our city.

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johnr wrote:
The idea that an objection to the graphic, negative, dominating presence of this monument equates to a lack of sympathy for the tragedy of the event is absurd.

Depending on who you ask, between 15 and 25 MILLION Russians were killed during WWII. Should they have a statue there, too? Or should their's be a little smaller because there are more Polish people that live in the neighborhood? Let's add a third for the victims of the atomic bombs on Japan. Maybe it could be of two figurines, Uncle Sam with a gas can and lighter, and a screaming Japanese woman carrying her baby with giant flames coming out of both of them; that is what happened after all - would that be tasteful and appropriate as well? Of course if you think it wouldn't, you're a heartless holocaust denier.

The Polish have a chip on their shoulder against Russia because Russia historically invades their country and tries to take them off the map. It's a long-running feud. The event was tragic, but the statue isn't just about how sad the Polish in the neighborhood are about Katyn. It's a political statement against Russia, at least in part, and it's naïve to believe otherwise.

If it's the negative imagery you love, instead of enshrining statements about Eastern European political conflicts, why don't we pick a more relevant tragedy; like the events surrounding the Native Americans we massacred, defrauded, and robbed to build that NYC skyline in the first place?

Posted on: 2010/4/29 23:24
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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neverleft wrote:
At the rate JC is changing I think someone needs to commission a statue that will represent the JC old-timers.

Maybe a bronze of an old man and woman with a shopping cart looking with delight into the window of a 99 cent store as they sip their 50 cent cup of coffee that they purchased from the local bodega. A fitting tribute indeed!

Hey all of you new-comers, hipsters, and yuppies you are the JC old-timers of tomorrow never forget that. Show some respect!


That would be far too relevant to JC and the people that live here. Better to pick something that happened in another place over 50 years before and has no connection to the vast majority of people living here.

Have you noticed that all the other Katyn memorials around the world (particularly the ones in Poland) are tasteful monuments that honor the memories of the people that were slaughtered without having to make political statements to people that could not have prevented what happened?

Here is a computer visualization of a new Katyn giant memorial to be built in Poland. It consists of 20,000+ figures of all of the victims, each with a name and a hole in its head (coz that's how they were killed, folks, not with bayonets). The video takes a while to get going but if you are patient at around two or three minutes in, you will see the Bayonne vagina.


http://video.google.pl/videoplay?doci ... 264069519938250476&hl=pl#

Posted on: 2010/4/29 21:03
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Although I happen to love that statue, at the very least it's something interesting to look at, which is more than hardly any other piece of architecture in that part of town can say these days. In this world of rapid homogenization it's nice to see something that can elicit an emotion, good or bad.

Posted on: 2010/4/29 17:51
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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At the rate JC is changing I think someone needs to commission a statue that will represent the JC old-timers.

Maybe a bronze of an old man and woman with a shopping cart looking with delight into the window of a 99 cent store as they sip their 50 cent cup of coffee that they purchased from the local bodega. A fitting tribute indeed!

Hey all of you new-comers, hipsters, and yuppies you are the JC old-timers of tomorrow never forget that. Show some respect!

Posted on: 2010/4/29 17:37
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Hey one more thing I will confess I have eaten in one of your hipster/yuppie establishments....and LOVED it! (I just hope it didn’t replace a sweet dollar store)

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gargantuan98 wrote:

Now I know about the vagina monument in Bayonne.


Before anyone condemns the “vagina” monument please take a trip over to the old MOT (Military Ocean Terminal) in Bayonne and see it close up. (no pun intended, well maybe). The road to get to it is across from the light rail station. It is the road for the new apartment complex and cruise ship port. Next to the strip mall with the Stop & Shop. You can’t walk to it; it is about a mile or 2 into the entrance. You go past all of the old MOT buildings.. amazing to think how many military people and the tons of equipment that shipped out from there.

We went on a rainy windy night; I swear the monument was screaming. Very surreal with the NYC skyline in the back ground.

God bless those who were lost on 9/11. God bless America!

Posted on: 2010/4/29 16:30
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I will vote for any mayoral candidate who promises to move that statue. Even Schundler.

Relocate it to the bottom of the Hudson.

Posted on: 2010/4/29 16:01
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Thank you for this thread.

Now I know about the vagina monument in Bayonne.

Posted on: 2010/4/29 15:53
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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neverleft wrote:
Attention Jersey City old-timers all 236,000 of you. The invading hipster’s all 2,000 (or less) of them have decided to tear down our statues, our symbols of the past. (they have their hip designer sneakers at the ready to whack the statues as they fall) The statues seem to be a little too ugly for their tastes. After all they are HIPsters! Way cooler to paint or plaster posters on the walls of downtown buildings with cool designs. Than have everyone try and figure out what the **** they mean.

Please be aware that they are also trying to take control of YOUR neighborhood bars and restaurants. They do not want you in their territory. They have begun to take away all of our dollar stores. They want the space for their fancy second hand stores (which are really just fancy dollar stores..dah!) and bicycle shops.

It’s interesting that they all want “the ultimate urban living experience” yet they don’t want to deal with the natives, their past symbols, or their current problems. They want JC to be “nice” like the burds where they grew up living in mommy and daddy’s split level ranch.

It ain’t happening deal with it! We’re here! We’re old-timers! Get use to it!


For all of you geniuses... what does a bayonet being driven into someone’s back symbolize?


What’s next on your hit list? The Jackie Robinson statue up Journal Square (I don’t like the way he is raising his both arms...seems too threatening to be in front of a transportation center) or the Christopher Columbus statue.. (hey he is holding a cross and just who is he pointing at? Is that his pointer finger or middle finger?).

Or better yet....

Is the Holocaust Memorial: Liberation Monument by Nathan Rappaport in Liberty State Park next on your hit list? It is kind of “in your face” having a US WWII soldier carrying a poor skin and bones concentration camp survivor in the shadow of the NYC skyline. Gee how gross I think his rib bone is popping out.


LSP: Liberation Monument

***

JC old-timers watch group: I am looking for volunteers to guard the Ruby Dollar Store and the K-Mart on Rt 440. I heard that the hipster’s might try and make a move on them. Something about a combined wine school, yoga studio, bike shop complex, where you can sip a glass of homemade wine, workout, while you get your bike fixed.

Jersey City will survive with out without hipsters. If you remember the first hipster..err I mean yuppie invasion was in the late 80’s. That didn’t work out too well because of the crash in the early 90’s. But we survived ... crappy dollar stores and all!





I'm one of those gentrifying yuppies. And yes, you nailed the absurdity of wannabe rich people (JC first, tomorrow Chelsea!) moving into slums to find an idyllic authenticity, I was truly lol. I would also have mentioned strollers full of hierloom tomatoes and arugala salads, but well done nevertheless.

Gentrifying yuppies really don't want authenticity or urban grit at the end of the day, they want suburban bliss in the shell of something they can claim is authentic. Look at Chipotle in Manhattan. Where are all the mom and pop coffee shops they claim to love? I guess they prefer chain store burritos.

Posted on: 2010/4/29 14:55
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I think it needs to go. It has no relation to Exchange Place, Jersey City or this country. It's an eyesore in the middle of a modern business environment. Move it to some park.

Posted on: 2010/4/29 13:18
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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From JCINDY.COM Apr 21st, 2010
PHOTOS: Memorial Service for Polish Plane Crash Victims

http://www.jerseycityindependent.com/ ... lish-plane-crash-victims/

Posted on: 2010/4/29 12:57
The Jersey City Independent is the alternative news and culture source for Jersey City.
www.jerseycityindependent.com or jcindy.com
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Attention Jersey City old-timers all 236,000 of you. The invading hipster’s all 2,000 (or less) of them have decided to tear down our statues, our symbols of the past. (they have their hip designer sneakers at the ready to whack the statues as they fall) The statues seem to be a little too ugly for their tastes. After all they are HIPsters! Way cooler to paint or plaster posters on the walls of downtown buildings with cool designs. Than have everyone try and figure out what the **** they mean.

Please be aware that they are also trying to take control of YOUR neighborhood bars and restaurants. They do not want you in their territory. They have begun to take away all of our dollar stores. They want the space for their fancy second hand stores (which are really just fancy dollar stores..dah!) and bicycle shops.

It’s interesting that they all want “the ultimate urban living experience” yet they don’t want to deal with the natives, their past symbols, or their current problems. They want JC to be “nice” like the burds where they grew up living in mommy and daddy’s split level ranch.

It ain’t happening deal with it! We’re here! We’re old-timers! Get use to it!


For all of you geniuses... what does a bayonet being driven into someone’s back symbolize?


What’s next on your hit list? The Jackie Robinson statue up Journal Square (I don’t like the way he is raising his both arms...seems too threatening to be in front of a transportation center) or the Christopher Columbus statue.. (hey he is holding a cross and just who is he pointing at? Is that his pointer finger or middle finger?).

Or better yet....

Is the Holocaust Memorial: Liberation Monument by Nathan Rappaport in Liberty State Park next on your hit list? It is kind of “in your face” having a US WWII soldier carrying a poor skin and bones concentration camp survivor in the shadow of the NYC skyline. Gee how gross I think his rib bone is popping out.


LSP: Liberation Monument

***

JC old-timers watch group: I am looking for volunteers to guard the Ruby Dollar Store and the K-Mart on Rt 440. I heard that the hipster’s might try and make a move on them. Something about a combined wine school, yoga studio, bike shop complex, where you can sip a glass of homemade wine, workout, while you get your bike fixed.

Jersey City will survive with out without hipsters. If you remember the first hipster..err I mean yuppie invasion was in the late 80’s. That didn’t work out too well because of the crash in the early 90’s. But we survived ... crappy dollar stores and all!




Posted on: 2010/4/29 12:19
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
#30
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If you look into the history of Katyn you would know that most of the people killed were Polish workers and state emplyees (doctors, professors, police officers, university graduates, political prisoners), not soldiers. Get schooled. Running away is not cowardice when you have no power, expectation, or ability to fight.

Posted on: 2010/4/29 11:09
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